Why can't we be friends? (Pocket D QoL)
By
Ambience,
Posted on: 2006-02-11 17:44 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Technical difficulties isn't the most interesting answer, but it is a reasonable one. We know it's not because they haven't thought of it, we know it's not because of story concerns, and we know that they'd like to do it. They just have some technical issues with pulling it off.
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A technical answer could also consist of a response like what many others have said as well: They can't add a trainer to Pocket D because it couldn't differentiate between heroes and villains and would train both. That's still a technical reason. The source code doesn't need to be trotted out to explain something like that, and I strongly doubt that that is what anyone is requesting. That's just hyperbolic. The devs have been able to explain reasons behind things many times before even if it's something that's prevented from a technical standpoint. MM pets not being able to zone into instances is a good example of this.
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To me, the trainers not knowing the difference is more of a storyline reason then a techincal one. Since a trainer can train both, you create a story as to why that trainer will train both. But, Posi is saying that it is a techincal reason not a storyline reason like he did with why insperations cannot be transfer. He also stated a possible technical reason in the future, faction based insperations.
The issue that I have with using a bug in beta as proof that it is possible, is that it was beta. The code may have been changed since that occured. Of course, it may not have. But, I doubt this is the techincal reason Posi has in mind.
--Rad
/whereami:
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Or you could add a global friend with an opponent in a pvp zone, but it's hard to coordinate VG/SG battles when you only know one person in the opposing group.
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Or you can create a global chat channel and invite all of the interested parties to it.
I'm curious though, what possible exploits could there be to have an enemy in your friends list? I can't think of any, considering you can still talk to anyone via global chat/channels.
FireWild - lv 50 Fire/Fire Blaster (Justice)
FyreWyld - lv 40 Energy/Energy Brute (Justice)
... and way too many others
Turn the door ladies (the devil chick and the chick in the business suit) into the trainers. Yes, right now occasionally heroes end up on the villain side, but i really don't see where training a hero with the villain trainer breaks things. It's more of an annoyance than anything else. Not exploitable. (It doesn't give you anything special if you train with the other faction's trainer.)
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Besides, how often do you really need to train while on a team anyway?
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Let's see... i leveled up twice last night doing the Pocket D missions and we weren't even trying to get all of the exploit badges, just the ones that we're supposed to have access to. i probably would have leveled up at least twice more if we'd tried to get the other badges, too. That's 1 power and 2 slots for sure (levels i actually got) and potential for another power and 2 slots.
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I'm curious though, what possible exploits could there be to have an enemy in your friends list? I can't think of any, considering you can still talk to anyone via global chat/channels.
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As i pointed out yesterday and has been pointed out in this thread already, it makes it too easy to find your opponent in PvP zones. At least with global friends the other person has to approve the addition. Server friends don't require that approval. So you could go into Siren's Call, add your bounty to your friends list, then jump/fly/run around clicking the name on your list until it came up in your target window, making it easier for you to find them and kill them.
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There are a couple of exploits that would be associated with this if we let it happen.
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I believe he is refering to the fact that if they can be your friend anywhere, they will be your friend EVERYwhere.
And that could allow some people to grief others.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
What if the trainer was outside of the common area? Heck what if the trainer was the woman that is in front of the elevators on your way in?
If the worry is villains accessing hero trainers and viseversa, this would solve it.
If the issue is something else, then i have no clue. 
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On a whim I suggested that I would lacky her so she could help out... We weren't sure if the option would work, so I right clicked on her and lo and behold there was the option to Invite her to be my Lackey...
So I invite and she accepts and bam! she's now my lackey. It was at that point I felt the need to point out...
"Im now offically tutoring you in the ways of EVIL"
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Actually, if it worked the way it did for my hero, she wasn't your lackey - the text would say sidekick 
When I invited a villian to SK - It said in the text:
"You invite <name> to be your lackey.>
"<name> is now your lackey."
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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Could we maybe, I dunno, get explanations for when our ideas get shot down?
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Maybe they have other things to do than rehash long discussions that have already been resolved- or already explored in alpha / beta / behind closed doors. Many of these come from "lessons learned" in other games. Either way, the devs shouldn't waste their time outlining every decision they make to the playerbase.
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There are a couple of exploits that would be associated with this if we let it happen.
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What would they be?
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This is relatively minor, but it can be a bigger issue- in other games, people used to check for their /friends on the enemy side and try to stalk them- as a harassing technique. Anyone can add ANYONE to /friend, but global friends require consent, so it's much less exploitable.
Also, we're assuming we know the underlying codebase for /friend is just a basic list. If they wanted /friend to be more (either in the past, but removed it, or as a future element) then there might be legacy effects with such things.
Positron already mentioned the economy effects of trading inspirations, enhancements, and influence, so I'm assuming the issue here is /friends.
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We will probably slip in some NPCs who can buyback Enhancements at somepoint, but the trainer issue is a little more difficult from a technical standpoint.
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How so? People have already given great explanations as to how this could work and they were such obvious solutions that someone who gets paid to think of them should have come up with them long ago...put the trainers in the lobby...if this too is a technical problem then why didn't you note it? And how is it so?
OR even have some Neutral trainer who can train both sides?
We seem to hear a whole lotta "We can't do that for X Y Z vague reasons"
If you're gonna tell us a whole lotta what you can't do then maybe we could hear some of what you CAN do? Some or what you are DOING?
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Sorry, you may not have inteneded it, but the attitiude here borders between obnoxious and just plain annoying.
Let's see- we can assume they re-used the code for the trainer for ease of reference, and probably reused some data fields. Now, it could be that, just by a simple swapping of assets, I made it so the trainer in a villain zone would misidentify the hero, and vice versa. It could be that I started the trainer with a predefined cap, based on assumptions that the AT's wouldn't exceed a certain number. It could be that. It could be that the asset checks for a zone identifier to determine whether it will be a villain or hero trainer, and the lack of zone identity throws this off.
The main issue here, and one that coders understand, is there's a big difference (time-wise) with "dropping in a new asset" and "copying an asset, edititing the asset, testing the edited asset, and THEN dropping in the asset." One is within the realm of the level-builder, the other requires something to be put in someone else's production queue, prioritized, etc.
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Either way, No, the devs should have to waste their time answering in full detail what they're working on. Get used to that fact, as it won't change at any MMO you go to.
<ul type="square">[*] If the devs talk about things at the planning stage, they're likely to change so much by the time of release that the "you promised X" complaints will crash the forums. The devs here had to learn from the SSOCS fiasco. They still slip up when they agree that some feature would be nice/neat/worth doing... (meaning low-priority, but a good idea... just not necessarily in the works yet)[*] In the meantime people that don't understand that planning-->release can be a 3-6 month wait will be filling the forums with "where is X?" comments. (No joke, in one MMO, a dev announced that "details will be posted this week" and complaints of "where are the details we were promised" followed within 3 hours"[*] Oftentimes, no matter how well-defined they are, someone's gonna read something out-of-context and start the next forum fire drill. A player asks for advice regarding his claw/regen scrapper, castle responds with a friendly "you might want to wait till I7" hinting at changes (granted, not well defined)- while he later came back to clarify that CLAWS saw some loving, the REGEN nerf paranoia still hasn't entirely died down.[*] Preparing content for review to the public in a way that's clear, concise, and accurate is extremely time consuming and requires some degree of review. It distracts from the content creation process. And it REALLY does need careful editing. Forum communities have a history for being a volatile bunch- so much so that Sociologists have written volumes speculating on WHY group behavior here differs from elsewhere. (Put 40 otherwise rational people online together and expect an absolute flamewar in 5...4...3...2...) [/list]
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Uhhh....it's rather late for me, so forgive me if I'm wrong, but are there any regular zones with more than one trainer?
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*Edit, cause I just logged in and now can't find the trainer*
Ok found it. It was actually Cap Au Diable that has the 2 trainers. One near the Port Oaks ferry and the other in Aeon City.
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Mercy too, but both are in CoV.
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Either, they need someone neutral, story wise, or recode the trainers to know the difference between hero and villain.
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Yeah exactly. If they are coded different now then beta then throw in 2 trainers, one for each side. We know they have the code to recognize if a person is hero or villain cause we already have the separate contacts and stores that do this. And we have DJ Zero who doesn't care if you are hero or villain. Looks like the code is in place to be hero specific, villain specific, or neither.
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But do we? Can't use the Pocket D contacts as an example - they basically require the "Heart of " badge - light for heroes, darkness for villains.
And the ones in the PVP zones are introduced contacts, basically. And none of the villain contacts intorduce Hero PVP contacts, and vice versa.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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Sometimes they have and sometimes they haven't. The decision is up to the devs. Since Positron often gives complex and detailed answers, he probably had a reason for not going into more depth this time.
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Perhaps you're correct. They have been fairly liberal with answers in the past, so it's possible there is a matter they can't reveal. Of course, Positron is also the type to jump in when he can and offer a quick answer (which is greatly appreciated, no doubt), so it's also possible he just didn't have the time. Regardless, I think Silas_Tzin is correct in that the more information we get, the more accepting people will be of the answer. Not only that, but it might help the playerbase to come up with some ideas that the devs haven't considers.
My main point for replying though is that no one is going to the extremes that FlameBlade is suggesting.
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I don't ever recall Posi giving an in-depth answer on weekends.. which is when he posted that. He was jut being nice to us.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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No, Flame is right, though his response was a bit antagonistic. When a dev says that there are technical problems, that's probably the best answer he could give.
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Not really - he doesn't have to explain why - just that it is that way. For example, when they rolled out ED, they realized they made End Drain and End Recovery enahncements work exactly the same - so they changed them to End Modification. And told us why - that the two types in one power stacked with each other. This mostly shows up in things like Transference.
Another example is when they pulled the ability to enhance Damage resitance via enhancements (and defense too, for ninjas to balance it out) from Mastermind pets because, just like the two types of endurnce modifcation enhancements, damage and damage resistance worked off the same variables. They just didn't notice how they interacted until the little pop-up showing what is getting enhanced came along, and had a lot of people with pets. Which is the ONLY type of power that would have both damage and damage resitance.
neither time did they explain why, just that it is that way, and they really couldn't change the way it works (without redoing the engine itself) so this is how they are fixing it.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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When asking a "why can't" question, I would first ask a "why would heroes and villains..." question. Why would heroes and villains form a permanent coalition?
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For me, it's not a matter of the coalition, but the cross base access it provides. It allows for "safe" interactions between heroes and villains in associated groups (contrary to what the PvP zones would have you believe, comic heroes and villains rarely just charge at each other yelling). Raids are less than ideal for this because of the raid mechanic limitations (like the time limit), and Pocket D (while I love it, mucho thanks to the devs) is by nature an exceedingly public area which means a particularly important scene between archrivals can be interrupted by a bunch of geniuses from either side deciding they want to pile on.
A better question when restricting options is "what good does restricting this do versus what harm not restricting it does?" Hero/Villain SG coalitions have zero potential for exploits (I've spent quite a while trying to think of one) and they make RP much easier and more enjoyable. I can't think of a single good reason for denying them (not even fluff, since hero groups and villain groups rountinely join together to battle this and that).
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I will say that I heard of a group that at one point in the opening weekend was able to form a Coalition between a Villian SG and a Hero SG. However that is no longer possible. Also, I don't think it lasted after they patched it.
Also you can always use Global channel to talk between Villains and Heros, which is how my SG/VG does it, since it appears to be the only way for us to communication (i.e. who is on what, what help is needed, in CoV or CoH, etc). But the Global channel is more of a nicety, no way to really exploit it. However if it wasn't there I would be upset, since it would really cause issues with my VG/SG.
Take Care,
BinkDeBook
Virtue: CaptainMayhem-50 Inv/SS Tank; NaomiArmitage-50 DM/Inv Scrap; Captn Randomizer-50 MC/Kin Cntrller; Murky Thecat-50 Claws/SR Scrap; Professor Junk-50 Bots/Traps MM; +Others Arc Id #77311, #227436
Are we really going to care about the lack of trainers in Pocket D a month from now when this event is over?
Trainers and basic stores can be found very close to Pocket D entrances in both Paragon and the Rogue Isles. What kind of teams are you on that won't re-invite you after taking two minutes to pop outside to train and sell?
I admit, having someone to buy back enhancements would have been a very nice touch, but like the trainers, I'm not sure how often that will be an issue after the current event ends.
There are a lot of more important things the devs could be working on.
"And texting? 'How R U?' Wow! English is just getting its [censored] kicked. In two generations, that's going to be on chalkboards. And do you know what you get from that? You don't get Ernest Hemingway."
- Henry Rollins
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No, Flame is right, though his response was a bit antagonistic. When a dev says that there are technical problems, that's probably the best answer he could give.
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Not really - he doesn't have to explain why - just that it is that way. For example, when they rolled out ED, they realized they made End Drain and End Recovery enahncements work exactly the same - so they changed them to End Modification. And told us why - that the two types in one power stacked with each other. This mostly shows up in things like Transference.
Another example is when they pulled the ability to enhance Damage resitance via enhancements (and defense too, for ninjas to balance it out) from Mastermind pets because, just like the two types of endurnce modifcation enhancements, damage and damage resistance worked off the same variables. They just didn't notice how they interacted until the little pop-up showing what is getting enhanced came along, and had a lot of people with pets. Which is the ONLY type of power that would have both damage and damage resitance.
neither time did they explain why, just that it is that way, and they really couldn't change the way it works (without redoing the engine itself) so this is how they are fixing it.
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Actually, both times they did explain why, and pretty much goes along with what I'm saying. Those gave good for the changes with delving into the coding even though they were changes resulted by the technical side of things.
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Are we really going to care about the lack of trainers in Pocket D a month from now when this event is over?
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That is something I'm curious about. After the 22nd, is this even going to be an issue?
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As i pointed out yesterday and has been pointed out in this thread already, it makes it too easy to find your opponent in PvP zones. At least with global friends the other person has to approve the addition. Server friends don't require that approval. So you could go into Siren's Call, add your bounty to your friends list, then jump/fly/run around clicking the name on your list until it came up in your target window, making it easier for you to find them and kill them.
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This is relatively minor, but it can be a bigger issue- in other games, people used to check for their /friends on the enemy side and try to stalk them- as a harassing technique. Anyone can add ANYONE to /friend, but global friends require consent, so it's much less exploitable.
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By this token we shouldn't have server friends at all since we could just find them in any zone and hunt them down an harass them. What about Warburg? Hide the server friends list while there so you can't find people in there??
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Now, it could be that, just by a simple swapping of assets, I made it so the trainer in a villain zone would misidentify the hero, and vice versa. It could be that I started the trainer with a predefined cap, based on assumptions that the AT's wouldn't exceed a certain number. It could be that. It could be that the asset checks for a zone identifier to determine whether it will be a villain or hero trainer, and the lack of zone identity throws this off.
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The area before the elevator is hero or villain only. You acn't even enter the other side's "hallway of entrance". So when you see those 3 doors you might as well be in Paragon or Rogue Isles.
Let's not forget they also said there were technical issues for why they couldn't release a stand alone character creator....*looks on Korean CoH info sites*....ummm...yeeaahh...
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Either way, No, the devs should have to waste their time answering in full detail what they're working on.
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Thats a matter of opinion you're welcome to. My opinion is they could be working with ATI to fix the problems ATI users seem to experience w/ their game or they could be fixing numerous other bugs or they could actually be keeping the Known Issues section updated and thorough or they could be grinding out CoH issue 7 and finishing the polish on CoV Issue 1 (called Issue 7 by them) ...they could have put time into allll of that, instead of creating Pocket D...
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That is something I'm curious about. After the 22nd, is this even going to be an issue?
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I hope so otherwise I'll be very upset that they wasted time redesigning PDP and making it so intricate just to occasionally plop an event contact in there. Hopefully this will be the beginning of more co-op missions.
Also going back to people talking about issues with a trainer seeing hero or villain an getting mixed up...If a flippin locked box or cauldron can see the difference between a hero and a villain why not a trainer??
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Are we really going to care about the lack of trainers in Pocket D a month from now when this event is over?
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Maybe not...but on the other hand, it's interesting that Positron said they would see about putting buy-back contacts in there, and the stated reason against Trainers was technical rather than "but why will you need it after the event." Sorta makes ya go "Hmmm..."
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How about letting Hero Supergroups and Villain Supergroups coalition? I can't imagine any kind of exploit there that isn't already available through global chat.
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They can "coalition" by making a channel and having everyone who wants to communicate join it.
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Are we really going to care about the lack of trainers in Pocket D a month from now when this event is over?
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Maybe not...but on the other hand, it's interesting that Positron said they would see about putting buy-back contacts in there, and the stated reason against Trainers was technical rather than "but why will you need it after the event." Sorta makes ya go "Hmmm..."
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Now I'm starting to wonder if DJZero will be the cross-over contact...
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Are we really going to care about the lack of trainers in Pocket D a month from now when this event is over?
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Maybe not...but on the other hand, it's interesting that Positron said they would see about putting buy-back contacts in there, and the stated reason against Trainers was technical rather than "but why will you need it after the event." Sorta makes ya go "Hmmm..."
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Now I'm starting to wonder if DJZero will be the cross-over contact...
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It's possible. Maybe changing your side will require grouping with the opposite team.
Thinking about this some, I have to wonder how much of this event is a way for them to test how cross-over is going to work. Allowing us to team up in a very limited fashion, must be a good way for them to datamine to see if any glaring problems come up before they implement it. If that is the case, I'd imagine we'll get some more missions there even after the event ends. (At least, I hope.)
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I DESPISE having to team.
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Then don't. Problem solved.
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And any time I get a mission that boils down to needing two teammates just to disarm bombs or in this case needing to recruit a villain just to click the glowie, it's ridiculously annoying. I had CLEARED the map before finding out I needed a villain partner and then had to clear it again.
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Um, did you not READ THE MISSION DESCRIPTION ...? The description for the second mission on BOTH sides in Pocket D is absolutely and unequivocably unambiguous about needing an ally from the opposing faction.
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Besides, I'm antisocial.
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It shows.
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I don't like teaming in general and feel that the game should be able to be played ENTIRELY SOLO at the player's discretion.
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Well, that's not going to happen; some content - an extreme minority of it - is specifically, especially, and explicitly intended to be done on a Team. I speak, specifically, of Trials, Task Forces, and Strike forces.
Oh, and some Eent content. Like the Valentines Day content currently in Pocket D. Need I remind you what the theme of Valentines Day IS ...?!?
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One of the most famous superhero characters of all time is exactly the same--Batman. He wouldn't team with Superman, Aquaman, Flash and the rest of the JLA if he didn't have to (heck, he mostly does it to keep an eye onthem, kinda like Bush and the Patriot Act). He can go just fine on his own. And IF he chooses to have someone along, he'll call Robin or Nightwing before he asks for Green Lantern or Plastic Man.
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The JLA is more of a SuperGroup, than a team. And as for Robin? There's a reason it's Batman and Robin; the writers of that character have discovered that Batman-sans-Robin gets TOO DARK, and slips further and further away from being a HERO.
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Needless to say I'm cranky because I'm overly tired, and I'm overly tired because I'm stuck waiting to recruit a villain at 5:30 am my time to shoot something I was literally standing on top of but wasn't allowed to touch.
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Next time, try to read the mission description.
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Let's not forget they also said there were technical issues for why they couldn't release a stand alone character creator....*looks on Korean CoH info sites*....ummm...yeeaahh...
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Actually Cuppa said there were LEGAL issues about the character creator and that those legal issues may be resolved enough now to allow them to create an English version of the character creator standalone.
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Also going back to people talking about issues with a trainer seeing hero or villain an getting mixed up...If a flippin locked box or cauldron can see the difference between a hero and a villain why not a trainer??
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well if you are the Codemaster: Master of the Codeverse, then by all means let us know how easy it would be. Me however, I know nothing about code or programming, so when the guy who built the game tells me "it'll be technically hard to do" I'm going to trust his judgement on that.
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More of a bug really, but this thread has talked about it. I have tried with two diffeent Heroes to buy the temp powers from Chilly, the bartender. I don't loose any influence, nor do I get a temp power. Well one time he did take my 1000 inf, but I have never gotten a power from him. Others on my team can. My enhancement trays have an opening, mu insp trays have an opening, and yet I have no access to them. What's the trick?
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They're not enhancements - they don't go in the Enhancement tray.
They're not inspirations - they don't go into the Inspiration tray.
They are Temporary Powers - they go into the POWER tray. The catch is, they don't automatically go into your Power Tray. Click on Powers above the tray, and check the Temporary Powers category - they should be there. If you click on them THERE, they get pulled down into your Power Tray - assuming you have an open spot for them.
Yeah, I bought a power twice before realizing that it went into the POWER section and not the power tray.
No biggie though.
Positron: Any word on explination yet? We're willing to help you if you're willing to help us. A discussion goes no where if we the people are not informed beyond "techincal standpoint."
And don't get me wrong.. you do great work.. but PLEASE discuss things with us.
Have not read this full topic but the exploit to the friends list would be this:
In a pvp zone you could /friend an opposing player then track his movement with a single mouse click.
Yes, you can do it with global but you have to consent being added to a global list.
[img]http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/289/part1v.jpg[/img]