Why can't we be friends? (Pocket D QoL)
By
Ambience,
Posted on: 2006-02-11 17:44 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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A neutral trainer could be devised, but from a RP perspective it would make no sense. This person would have to have the authority to both increase someone's security level in Paragon City (not permission that is handed out lightly, as it's only the trusted signature heroes who can do this), as well as be qualified to increase a villains threat level (also not given out lightly, as only Recluse's arbiters may do this). Who could possibly be trusted to have such permissions for BOTH sides?
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The Devs already have code that allows/disallows heroes/villians into certain areas, all they would have to do is switch it around for trainers.
Hell, the Devs could even put Statesman and Lord Recluse as the trainers *shrugs*
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Hell, the Devs could even put Statesman and Lord Recluse as the trainers
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You know what we should get (read: what I want)? We should have Tyrant as a Villain trainer, and Warm Fuzzy Lord Recluse as the Hero trainer.
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We will probably slip in some NPCs who can buyback Enhancements at somepoint, but the trainer issue is a little more difficult from a technical standpoint.
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Simple solution: Put the trainers and enhancement vendors in the entrance lobbies, where only that side can get to them. Put an Arbiter and a Quartermaster in the hallway between the Rogue Isles entrances and the elevator. Put a Freedom Corps Trainer and some as-yet-unused minor signature hero trainer in the hallway between the Paragon City entrances and their elevator.
(While you're at it, any chance of having an Icon clerk in the hero lobby and a Facemaker nurse in the villain lobby?)
Could we maybe, I dunno, get explanations for when our ideas get shot down?
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There are a couple of exploits that would be associated with this if we let it happen.
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What would they be?
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We will probably slip in some NPCs who can buyback Enhancements at somepoint, but the trainer issue is a little more difficult from a technical standpoint.
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How so? People have already given great explanations as to how this could work and they were such obvious solutions that someone who gets paid to think of them should have come up with them long ago...put the trainers in the lobby...if this too is a technical problem then why didn't you note it? And how is it so?
OR even have some Neutral trainer who can train both sides?
We seem to hear a whole lotta "We can't do that for X Y Z vague reasons"
If you're gonna tell us a whole lotta what you can't do then maybe we could hear some of what you CAN do? Some or what you are DOING?
There are probably some problems with the lobbies. Currently heroes will occasionally zone into the villain lobby when entering Pocket D.
Also, I really wouldn't be surprised is Recall Friend would bring a hero or villain into the lobby in which they aren't meant to be.
I wouldn't have War Witch be training. She seems to be really enjoying her time off.
That, and, if you make her a trainer she might not spout the NPC dialog that she currently does.
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I don't think it's supposed to be easy to do hero/villian team-ups. THESE PEOPLE ARE THE ENEMY, REMEMBER?!
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"Just because I'm carrying around the joy of killing your family inside me doesn't mean we can't be friends."
Or, more generally, some heroes and villains are on fairly good terms (see this past weekend's Justice League cartoon for a good example, or Professor X and Magneto). Some villains are arguably more heroic than some heroes (in RP terms, my villainous main goes out of his way to keep collateral damage low, accepts surrender, and doesn't hold grudges to heroes who counter him - but I've seen several "heroes" who are by their own count bloodthirsty psychopaths). Some characters aren't particularly given over to one side or the other (Punisher, for instance).
And, well, I'd just like to know sometimes when one of my hero friends log in, without them having to tell me.
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We will probably slip in some NPCs who can buyback Enhancements at somepoint, but the trainer issue is a little more difficult from a technical standpoint.
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Add arbiter uh...Paul to the villain's side, make war witch the hero trainer
i think that'd work?
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I think the issue is this.
From a "concept" point of view, there would "have to" be one Hero trainer and one Villain trainer (Security and Threat levels are "story-wise" "faction dependant", can't very well have a "neutral" trainer giving both). So there would have to be one Hero trainer and one Villain trainer. That would be very well unless for one thing.
Trainers currently don't care what faction you are a member of.
Walk a villain up to Ms Liberty, and she'll gladly train you. (A couple of my villains were trained by Ms Liberty in Beta)
Currently they avoid that issue by not allowing villains to enter areas where hero trainers are placed (and the other way around).
If there was a hero trainer and a villain trainer in the same area on the other hand...
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Dude.. Security and threat levels are both associated with both games...
Security level = the level you have earned enough XP to reach and have physically trained up to. Does NOT change with mal/exemp or lackey/SK
Threat level = your current fighting level.. is usually the same as your security level, but it can change if you are in a TF/SF/pvp zone, and are auto-exemped, as well as if your level has been modified by a teammate that has you mal/exemp/lackey/sk'd
Something tells me that the trouble with trainers is not as simple as putting 2 in.
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It's called ventrilo.
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At least one of my VG's members is deaf, and I know for a fact that at least three more either can't afford ventrilo, or else can't afford to upgrade their computer to allow for it to be useful.
And, well, a couple people do play cross-gender roles, so the deep voices kind of kill the RP.
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A neutral trainer could be devised, but from a RP perspective it would make no sense. This person would have to have the authority to both increase someone's security level in Paragon City (not permission that is handed out lightly, as it's only the trusted signature heroes who can do this), as well as be qualified to increase a villains threat level (also not given out lightly, as only Recluse's arbiters may do this). Who could possibly be trusted to have such permissions for BOTH sides?
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Malaise?
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Could we maybe, I dunno, get explanations for when our ideas get shot down?
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While Powerhelm's tone is a little more strident than I'd be here, I do agree with his questions here. If the ideas we're proposing aren't going to be used because of some kind of exploits, why not go ahead and tell us what those exploits would be? If the idea isn't going through, we're only dealing with hypotheticals anyway. The only outcomes would be either a) us working together, players with the devs, to try to address these exploits, b) the players see the problems the devs are facing, and back off some more, or c) the players and devs don't agree on the problems, and nothing happens.
A or B are better situations than that we have right now, which is pretty much identical to C.
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Security level = the level you have earned enough XP to reach and have physically trained up to. Does NOT change with mal/exemp or lackey/SK
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Threat level = your current fighting level.. is usually the same as your security level, but it can change if you are in a TF/SF/pvp zone, and are auto-exemped, as well as if your level has been modified by a teammate that has you mal/exemp/lackey/sk'd
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Sorry Jedi, but you're wrong. You were close, in that your descriptions of the two kinds of levels are well done, but you've got the names all mixed around. The Security level is in fact the level you've trained to. However, Threat Level is actually the villainous name for the exact same thing. Combat Level is what you describe in the second section, and applies to both Heroes and Villains under the same name.
I have two problems: the first one is that I attended public school and likely can't read very wel, because if I had, it might have helped the second problem: having to team at all.
I DESPISE having to team. I don't MIND teaming when I want tobut I HATE (can't put it more strongly then that without being censored) being forced to. And any time I get a mission that boils down to needing two teammates just to disarm bombs or in this case needing to recruit a villain just to click the glowie, it's ridiculously annoying. I had CLEARED the map before finding out I needed a villain partner and then had to clear it again. I don't play for hours at a time--I got too many other things to do. I like to go in, do a mission or two and get out. 90 minutes, tops. So having to go throgh the same mission twice just to click on ONE damn glowie is slow torture. Besides, I'm antisocial. I don't like teaming in general and feel that the game should be able to be played ENTIRELY SOLO at the player's discretion. One of the most famous superhero characters of all time is exactly the same--Batman. He wouldn't team with Superman, Aquaman, Flash and the rest of the JLA if he didn't have to (heck, he mostly does it to keep an eye onthem, kinda like Bush and the Patriot Act). He can go just fine on his own. And IF he chooses to have someone along, he'll call Robin or Nightwing before he asks for Green Lantern or Plastic Man.
Needless to say I'm cranky because I'm overly tired, and I'm overly tired because I'm stuck waiting to recruit a villain at 5:30 am my time to shoot something I was literally standing on top of but wasn't allowed to touch.
But I'm SURE Jack think's it's FUN. And ultimately, stroking his ego with a tube of petroleum jelly is all the game is about anyway.
Infernosect, if you were talking about a regular contact, you'd have a point. But these aren't regular contacts. They exist only for people who want to team. They're very up front about that, they're not keeping you from getting the rest of your soloable content, these are simply team oriented missions.
They're just like TFs. If you don't want to team, then don't do them. Do your regular contact missions instead. There are hundreds of hours of soloable content.
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make war witch the hero trainer
i think that'd work?
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ABSOLUTELY NOT! War Witch is perfect as she is in there, delivering hilarious lines. Making her a trainer would "break" in that regard.
Besides, how often do you really need to train while on a team anyway? The extra power is nice on the even levels, but the extra slot or two typically doesn't make that much of a difference. Besides, I doubt we'll need to spend so much time in Hero/Villain teams that'd be a major issue. Heroes and Villains should only team up under extraordinary circumstances, not as a routine happening.
As for friends and/or coalitions, yeah they could be nice. It was a bit of a pain coordinating the villain friends with the hero friends to do the Pocket D missions, especially since most of them don't use our global SG channel and have hero/villain chat off by default. It won't kill me if that doesn't change, but an easier means of communication between the sides would be welcome.
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3. And the worst of all, if you leave Pocket D just to go train or sell enhancements, you get kicked from your team! So make War Witch a trainer, and let the bartenders buy as well as sell. Or let me stay on the team, it's hard enough to put one together!
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We will probably slip in some NPCs who can buyback Enhancements at somepoint, but the trainer issue is a little more difficult from a technical standpoint.
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Well it would definately be nice...it is kind of a pain in the butt. 
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In a practical reason though, it would be to coordinate pvp. You could have a nemesis coalition, where you could coordinate base raids, or SG/VG battles in pvp zones. Yeah, you can try to use the forums, but not everyone reads the forums. Or you could add a global friend with an opponent in a pvp zone, but it's hard to coordinate VG/SG battles when you only know one person in the opposing group.
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It's called ventrilo.
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For inter-SG/VG activities, TS is great (I use it), but to find new VGs or SGs to fight against, it doesn't solve the problem. TS/vent isn't great for folks you normally don't team with, and are there for occasional skirmishes in pvp. Plus, I know more than a few folks who refuse to use voice software, or can't.
I'm talking about a mechanism to communicate with opposing factions to try and coordinate battles. In general, you're not going to share a channel between opposing sides, so you're still down to having to know ahead of time what their channel is, popping in, and trying to coordinate something with whoever is there. It's less efficient than a coalition system in my opinion.
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We will probably slip in some NPCs who can buyback Enhancements at somepoint, but the trainer issue is a little more difficult from a technical standpoint.
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Add arbiter uh...Paul to the villain's side, make war witch the hero trainer
i think that'd work?
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I think the issue is this.
From a "concept" point of view, there would "have to" be one Hero trainer and one Villain trainer (Security and Threat levels are "story-wise" "faction dependant", can't very well have a "neutral" trainer giving both). So there would have to be one Hero trainer and one Villain trainer. That would be very well unless for one thing.
Trainers currently don't care what faction you are a member of.
Walk a villain up to Ms Liberty, and she'll gladly train you. (A couple of my villains were trained by Ms Liberty in Beta)
Currently they avoid that issue by not allowing villains to enter areas where hero trainers are placed (and the other way around).
If there was a hero trainer and a villain trainer in the same area on the other hand...
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Fix the Talos island glitch and place them at the entrances...
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2. You can't add a villain to your Friends list. So, Batman and Catwoman aren't "friends"? Yes, I know you can add them to Global friends, but come on.
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There are a couple of exploits that would be associated with this if we let it happen.
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3. And the worst of all, if you leave Pocket D just to go train or sell enhancements, you get kicked from your team! So make War Witch a trainer, and let the bartenders buy as well as sell. Or let me stay on the team, it's hard enough to put one together!
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We will probably slip in some NPCs who can buyback Enhancements at somepoint, but the trainer issue is a little more difficult from a technical standpoint.
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OK, if you say there are exploits possible, I believe you (even though I can't imagine what they are). I suspect you guys are experts at exploit-detection by now.
But the training and enhancement issue? Look at it as a challenge! Pocket D is a good thing you have going--in fact it may be unique to the popular MMOs. It just needs a little buffing!
Ideally, the tank will die precisely as everyone else starts fighting, allowing aggro to be spread evenly among the blaster. -seebs, "How to Suck at CoH/CoV" Guide
There is at least one exploit which I can think of off the top of my head. You can target anybody in your friends window who is nearbye just by clicking on their name. That would allow you to target a hidden stalker friend or any other hidden friend for that matter. Even unhidden friends that were near enough could be found behind buildings or walls.
Don't count your weasels before they pop dink!
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So Pocket D is a lot of fun. But there are a few problems in teaming with villains:
1. You can't give a villain an inspiration. Now, I think I've seen Superman give "inspiration" to just about everyone, even Lex Luthor. I don't see why this isn't possible.
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I would imagine that if they allowed you to give inspirations, they would also have to allow giving Enhancements and possibly even money. And if they did that, bye bye CoV economy as everyone trade over Influence from their level 50s who have fifty bajillion of it. 
The Dimensional Drop temp powers make up for this inability to give Inspirations, and do so quite well in my book.
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2. You can't add a villain to your Friends list. So, Batman and Catwoman aren't "friends"? Yes, I know you can add them to Global friends, but come on.
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If you could friend villains, then you would suddenly have an easy way to locate them in pvp zones. "That #$@!%! ganked me!" /friend + fly around clicking name in friends list to get a target on him.
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3. And the worst of all, if you leave Pocket D just to go train or sell enhancements, you get kicked from your team! So make War Witch a trainer, and let the bartenders buy as well as sell. Or let me stay on the team, it's hard enough to put one together!
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It would indeed be nice to have buyback contacts, if not trainers, in there.
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Who could possibly be trusted to have such permissions for BOTH sides?
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Malaise?
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Oh please! Even if not a trainer... put Malaise in Pocket D?
I miss Malaise...
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I had CLEARED the map before finding out I needed a villain partner and then had to clear it again. I don't play for hours at a time--I got too many other things to do. I like to go in, do a mission or two and get out. 90 minutes, tops. So having to go throgh the same mission twice just to click on ONE damn glowie is slow torture.
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I'm afraid I have a hard time mustering any sympathy whatsoever for you given that the mission introduction--which you read before you ever start the mission--says very clearly at the outset that you will need to have a member of the opposing faction on your team to do that mission. It's not like you didn't have any warning before you ever went into the portal.
(Oh, and you don't need to clear the map for either of the needs-opposing-faction-member missions; you just need to take out the boss to get the security key, then take out the item at the end. Stealth and superspeed work very well.)
Personally, I found it to be a wonderful opportunity to see how well particular hero-villain combos work (Emp Defenders and Brutes are amazing together, for instance), plus the Dimensional Drop powers that can only be used on the opposite faction mean that a bipartisan team is much stronger together than individually.
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Could we maybe, I dunno, get explanations for when our ideas get shot down?
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While Powerhelm's tone is a little more strident than I'd be here, I do agree with his questions here. If the ideas we're proposing aren't going to be used because of some kind of exploits, why not go ahead and tell us what those exploits would be? If the idea isn't going through, we're only dealing with hypotheticals anyway. The only outcomes would be either a) us working together, players with the devs, to try to address these exploits, b) the players see the problems the devs are facing, and back off some more, or c) the players and devs don't agree on the problems, and nothing happens.
A or B are better situations than that we have right now, which is pretty much identical to C.
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I concur.
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There is at least one exploit which I can think of off the top of my head. You can target anybody in your friends window who is nearbye just by clicking on their name. That would allow you to target a hidden stalker friend or any other hidden friend for that matter. Even unhidden friends that were near enough could be found behind buildings or walls.
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Couldn't this just be solved by making it so you have to get consent from the opposite side before you add them to your friendlist? That way I couldn't just add every stalker to my friendlist while in Siren's Call without their permission. (Of course, I'll just point out this problem would already exist in a FFA zone like Warburg anyways.)
Personally though, I'd just be completely happy if the Global Friend list told you when someone on it logged in.
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In a practical reason though, it would be to coordinate pvp. You could have a nemesis coalition, where you could coordinate base raids, or SG/VG battles in pvp zones. Yeah, you can try to use the forums, but not everyone reads the forums. Or you could add a global friend with an opponent in a pvp zone, but it's hard to coordinate VG/SG battles when you only know one person in the opposing group.
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It's called ventrilo.