Defense and Scaling
By
Aaron123,
Posted on: 2006-01-11 16:47 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Okay, not that I want to be flamed or anything (I also agree that SR sets deserve some lovin'), but doesn't this necessarily mean that a person is exposed to the same amount of risk (up to +5 levels) for increasing reward (up to +5 levels)?
Doesn't this contradict the idea of reward scaling with risk?
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So when will you be announcing that all +DEF powers have been cut in half? 
So basicaly, if i have 20% (40% of a minnions acc) def against minnions it will translate to 30% (40% of an even AV's acc) against an even AV?
And this also means that the def will scale equally all the way to +5 enemies?
I dont see who would do this but still, how will that translate to +6 enemies? is it an imediate step down to nullified Def or is it a gradual decreses in effectiveness after +5 levels?
Will this apply to ANY power in the game that grants DEF?
What about -acc that is basicaly inverted def? Those debuffs also have a similar issue where not only are they mitigated by levels, but the acc bonuses of the higher level enemy on top of the mitigation makes them even worse... will this somehow also help these acc debuff powers?
Finally, how does this affects +acc? will it only work off the base of the enemy's acc, or will it work off the final enemy Acc at the moment of attack? If an enemy minnion is buffed to 60 acc somehow, will this translate to 24% def?
Is the formula in the end:
(ToHit + buff - debuff) - DEF/50 * (ToHit + buff - debuff)?
Would this also mean that Def will become less powerful against green enemies than it used to be (not an issue to anyone I bet though)?
WOOOT! It just keeps getting better and better! Wonder if there'll be another buff tomorrow, eh? Wouldn't get my hopes up, though.
Viewtiful Shmoe's verdict: Henshin a-go-go, baby! *Thumbs up*
The problem is that defense sets were at more risk vs higher level / con mobs when compared to resist sets.
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I look forward to a detailed explanation of how this will work. 
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Ditto.
;slapreact
My Ice Tank is looking forward to I7!
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Okay, not that I want to be flamed or anything (I also agree that SR sets deserve some lovin'), but doesn't this necessarily mean that a person is exposed to the same amount of risk (up to +5 levels) for increasing reward (up to +5 levels)?
Doesn't this contradict the idea of reward scaling with risk?
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Not terribly. Consider that a +5 foe is still going to be able to do more damage per hit than an even con. They might each have only a 40% chance of connecting, but that 40% is going to be more risky with the +5 strength than with the even con. Thus higher level foes will still be riskier...
The question, however, is how this affects base to-hit chances. Will the +5 foes have an equal to hit chance as a -5 foe? Or do the base to-hit marks remain as they are, just the defense power bonus itself remains constant within that range (which is rather what I expect).
Y'know.. I really hate numbers, but I think it's going to be necessary for this one.
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Some more good news...
Ice Tankers and SR Scrappers have long lamented that Defense doesn't scale with level. Because mobs higher level than a player possess an inherent to hit bonus, Defense isn't as effective over levels as Resistance.
A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.
This change is coming in I7
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This is very interesting. I'm curious, though, as to how this will work exactly. Since this pertains to everyone who has defense, the implication is that even if all you have is hover, you will be effectively immune from the scaling tohits of higher level foes. Something sounds amiss there in terms of how the bonus will work. Its probably very important to define what you mean exactly by "your defense powers will work equally well..." If my SR scrapper has 25% defense, she mitigates about half the hits of a minion, with base 50% tohit. Does this mean that against a +1 minion, net overall tohit will remain 25% (i.e. the tohit bonus is ignored), or does that mean my defense scales up to about 27.5% (to be about half of the new tohit of about 55%), or something else entirely? Could it be that the purple patch has been amended to swap tohit bonuses for accuracy bonuses, at least out to +5? That would certainly work.
Are there any plans to extend this to the tohit bonuses of LTs, Bosses, and AVs? AVs, after all, have a +25% tohit relative to minions, which is effectively erasing SR defenses completely. They are not, in general, completely unresistable.
Also, the really big thing was tohit buffs, like player tohit buffs in PvP, and insane tohit buffs like DE Quartz Eminators. Will this be extended to include these, or is a completely different change coming to address these?
Been a long time waiting on this one, States; thanks for continuing to look for a solution, and I'm looking forward to picking it apart real soon 
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I... just don't know what to say. I mean... wow... just... wow.
HOLY TESTICLE BUFF BATMAN!!!
Must...remain...calm...
Mustn't get overly excited...
I will remain calm until I know the specifics of this supposed..."buff"
I am new to this anti-nerf word, but I shall give it a try
Thanks States!!!
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Okay, not that I want to be flamed or anything (I also agree that SR sets deserve some lovin'), but doesn't this necessarily mean that a person is exposed to the same amount of risk (up to +5 levels) for increasing reward (up to +5 levels)?
Doesn't this contradict the idea of reward scaling with risk?
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No, it means some of the greater risk they're currently facing will be mitigated. Higher-level mobs will still do more damage to defense-based characters when they connect, so they're still more dangerous than even-level mobs. They just won't hit as often as they do now.
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Does this only apply to tankers and SR Scrappers, or do Stalkers get ths benefit too?
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Okay, not that I want to be flamed or anything (I also agree that SR sets deserve some lovin'), but doesn't this necessarily mean that a person is exposed to the same amount of risk (up to +5 levels) for increasing reward (up to +5 levels)?
Doesn't this contradict the idea of reward scaling with risk?
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no, when you do get hit it will be for a lot more from a +5 then an even level mob. but now you will actuall have a shot in hell of avoiding enough hits to take someone down first
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Oh [censored] it. STATESMAN! LET ME HAVE YOUR BABIES! Really *pulls out a gun*, I mean it...
To reitterate my post here:
Kind of raises more questions actually.
I thought scaling DEF was promised to the Tank AT, not just certain sets...
(...) perhaps because they ARE changing the way DEF works globally?
Holy crap, that might be the best news.
EVER!
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To reitterate my post here:
Kind of raises more questions actually.
I thought scaling DEF was promised to the Tank AT, not just certain sets...
And why scrappers? Not to be rude, but their "role" is not defensive... perhaps because they ARE changing the way DEF works globally?
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Scaling means at least two different things within the context of talking about tanks. Invincibility is scaling defense, but it scales with number of foes. In this case, we're talking about the fact higher level villains have higher base tohit, which is effectively an unavoidable defense debuff. That lack of scaling with level has serious consequences for any AT that relies on defense, such as Ice tanks and SR scrappers.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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And why scrappers? Not to be rude, but their "role" is not defensive...
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Because their role is offensive, and it's difficult to be offensive when you're dead.
Well, unless you're dead and stinky.
All I can Say Is Wow! One of the few games where the Devs actually listened to the community and did something about it.
Hmmm...
I haven't played a low level /SR for a couple of months, so at low levels, this makes a difference. But at higher levels, with SO's...i'm fighting on Invinc...without insp. If you allow my defense to work this good against +5's....that's just too good, imo.
This can't be motivated by a desire to reduce slots because /SR just isn't slot intensive IMO.
This won't let us reduce powers taken, because the passives give us a different layer of defense which works when +DEF doesn't.
Have you guys really play tested this?
I have to say, I don't think we need this at all. I'd much rather you give us +RES to Psi/Toxic in the passives or some way to counter the massive accuracy in things like Aim or Rage (3/3 Rage just clowns a fully ED slotted /SR in PvP...and I mean the passives too, but not with Elude).
I'd also prefer you give us some more utility as opposed to flat defense.
Again, at low levels, this is a bigger deal, but at high levels, I can already fight +5 minions in PI..all I needed was FA. I really really think this should be reexamined because it's really going to trivialize Invinc missions if they don't hit me any better than even level minions.
And I have to ask, won't /SR out perform other sets if we have the same defense against +5's?!?
I guess this will make Bubblers the new FoTM....or does it apply to bubbles?
my $.10
EDIT:
Well, I guess we'll have to see just how this is implemented. I can understand if this is more needed for other defensive sets in PvE....but I'm concerned for /sr still finding a challenge in PvE.
Devs, you might consider scaling this back as we level up or something. I just can't imagine dodging +5's like they were even level minions. Very surprising.
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Scaling means at least two different things within the context of talking about tanks. Invincibility is scaling defense, but it scales with number of foes. In this case, we're talking about the fact higher level villains have higher base tohit, which is effectively an unavoidable defense debuff. That lack of scaling with level has serious consequences for any AT that relies on defense, such as Ice tanks and SR scrappers.
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That puts it in a better context. Thanks for the clarification. In that light, it must be that the role of DEF in general will be changing.
But to paraphrase KaliMagdalene, I can't wait to see HOW it's done...
Didn't mean to sound flamy, just came out wrong 
My EA brute is overjoyed, to say the least.
My Tank thanks you.
and I hate to look a gift horse in the mouth, BUUUUTTTT....
does this mean Mobs(bosses) that use defense will be more difficult?
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