Defense and Scaling
By
Aaron123,
Posted on: 2006-01-11 16:47 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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You could make an argument both ways at this point. Its the level and rank tohit buffs that primarily unbalance the two in PvE: if this defense scaling effect correctly nullifies those tohit buffs in a proportional way, that would bring all four scrapper secondaries closer in mitigation than they have ever been
[/ QUOTE ] Well, here's my quandary. I understand that +RES scales better. But on straight math does the negation of +Rank perserve the balance? Oddly enough, this is a situation where I think a simulation is very applicable and informative.
I also thought that the increased damage kind of offset the fact that resistance scaled better..but again...the straight math would prove or disprove this.
Lastly, my concern is more about the nature of the fix. In the past, where the devs have started buffing sets, we start getting power inflation and then ultimately nerfs. Why not just add unresistable damage to +Rank so that it is negated. SO'd teams are already back to missions on Invinc...why would you make it any easier for us?
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If SR becomes overpowered with this change, then in effect *everyone* is
[/ QUOTE ] Well, I don't know about "everyone" but yeah, a lot of sets are a going to be blasting through Invinc missions....like a laser scalpel through soft cheese.
As far as /regen, I thought the +DMG from +Rank was essentially a counter to /regen? They are also victimized by the +acc from +Rank. Big difference between a mob with a 65 % acc versus one with a 95%, which is essentially the diff between a +0 boss and a +5 boss against a /regen. I don't see how a /regen will compete if that same +5 is hitting with only 65% acc?
I won't speak to any other sets, but do you honestly think /SR in particular needs this type of boost from a strictly PvE-challenge perspective? As I said in my other post, I got FA at 41...went to PI..and found I was easily beating down groups of +5 minions and Lt's with lvl 40 enhance, no inspirations, and no Elude. Now maybe I have better than average build, but good grief, if you reduce +5's to hitting me like +0's , I'm going to be bored out of my mind.
I guess we really need to see how this is done.
EDIT:
Let me make a point directly to the devs:
You nerfed Sappers
You nerfed Quicksand
You nerfed DE eminators
You nerfed Bosses
You nerfed AV's
This game is already so easy, I don't understand why you need to make it easier. Even more so, if you are going to give us a boost, at least make it something that requires a decisions or some active effort.
I agree that players have to generally feel like the game is balanced. Maybe there used to be a huge advantage for resistance sets...maybe in specific cases there still are. If so, I would ask the devs to use scalpel and not a shotgun to fix those things.
I'm not saying DoooooOOOOOOooooooM!!!!!, but hey...it's fun when it's a struggle against things that should be out of our league.
This is too awesome .. Ice tank here I come.
No worries, you and Mieux are entirely correct that Tanks = DEF is an old mentality, and not the subject of this thread.
Now I'm just afraid that I might have put people OT 
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Regeneration and resistance are both just as effective against +5s as +0s. Why should defense break down?
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Not exactly. Damage resistance prevents X% of incoming damage, but that damage is a heck of a lot greater from a +5 than it is from a +0. Similarly, regeneration is only good if the rate of incoming damage is equal to or less than your regen rate. Again, higher level enemies do more damage...
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A +5 hits a defense set a heck of a lot harder also. If there was no tohit bonus for level at all, then a +1 that hits about 10% harder would do 10% more damage to a defense set on average, and 10% more damage to a resistance set on average. We'd calculate the net mitigation of the resistance set to be the same as before, and the net mitigation of the defense set to be the same as before. That's what's means when we say resistance scales. Its not that resistance sets take the same amount of damage from a +5 as a +0, its that the percentage amount of damage it resists is the same. Similarly, without the tohit increase, a defensive set would deflect, or avoid, the same fraction of attacks for +0 as +5, which would mean that defense was just as effective. A +5 would still be more dangerous, because it would hit harder, but it would hit both defensive sets and resistive sets equally harder.
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I do agree that if a power gives you +X% defense, it should always give +X% defense, however, higher level enemies should have a greater chance of hitting you. So if an even con minin has a 50% chance to hit, a +1 should have like 52% chance to hit, or something...
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There's a way to do that and still be perfectly fair to defense and resistance sets. Just give higher level villains accuracy increases instead of tohit buffs. Higher level foes would now hit more often, but in a proportional manner. Problem solved.
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Hell has frozen over officially. Now I can unretire my SR scrapper and play my stalker more effectively. Will this apply to stalkers, mastermind ninja pets too?
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
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Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
*drags out a little crate onto the stage in the dark auditorium. A spot light clicks on and Lil_Miss is shown to be standing on it in the "em research" position*
My children! Soon, our day will come!
*someone in the back: Amen!*
I have seen this day coming! The day where Defense Based sets are finnally placed on relatively equal footing with resistance based sets! Can I get an Amen?
*someone in the back: Amen!*
Repent, all ye who scorned the Ice Tanks and SR Scrappers! For the end of days is neigh!
*someone in the back: Amen!*
*glances up as the spot light clicks off. Some shuffling is seen in the darkness and the spot light clicks back on, this time with a red tint. The Four Horsemen of the Apocolypse are standing, two on each side of Lil_Miss*
What the...
*Pestilance: We just got a call that Statesman's put down the Nerf bat and started buffing things left and right... this the place?*
Uhh...
>.>
<.<
No no, you want to head over to WoW...
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There's a way to do that and still be perfectly fair to defense and resistance sets. Just give higher level villains accuracy increases instead of tohit buffs. Higher level foes would now hit more often, but in a proportional manner. Problem solved.
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And by this Arcana means that the equation for to hit is something like (leaving out the MINMAX but remember you can never break the 5%-95% barrier):
Chance to hit = (BaseToHit + BuffToHit - DebuffToHit - Def) * (BaseAcc + EnhancedAcc)
So Arcana's saying... take the NPC level buff out of BaseToHit and give it to BaseAcc. Plug in some numbers and you'll see what Arc's talking about.
F
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No worries, you and Mieux are entirely correct that Tanks = DEF is an old mentality, and not the subject of this thread.
Now I'm just afraid that I might have put people OT
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I baleeted my post.
And topicality seems to be maintained, so all is good.
As far as I'm concerned, I'm very hesitant to label this as overpowered, just right, or not enough until we have a chance to test it. I suspect the devs have QA testing it now, or had them test it in the recent past, to see if it was fun/workable, but actual time on the test server may illustrate actual problems.
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As far as /regen, I thought the +DMG from +Rank was essentially a counter to /regen? They are also victimized by the +acc from +Rank. Big difference between a mob with a 65 % acc versus one with a 95%, which is essentially the diff between a +0 boss and a +5 boss against a /regen. I don't see how a /regen will compete if that same +5 is hitting with only 65% acc?
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I wouldn't hazard a guess as to how the devs are going to implement this, but I offer some possible options in my OP. But you're absolutely right that if SRs literally see *zero* accuracy increase from +0 to +5, but everyone else does, then the balance swings to SR, because now instead of a tohit buff that hits SR harder than everyone else, now we'd have a tohit buff that only hits everyone else.
However, the key is the wording of defense "working as well" as before. Strictly speaking, the measure of how well defense works is how much damage it mitigates, in percentage terms. For defense to be working "as well as before" its *percentage* mitigation should remain the same. If the devs have done that, then in actual fact, +5s will hit SR more often than +0s, but just in a manner proportional to how much more often they tend to hit non-defensive sets. If a +0 has base 50% tohit, and a +5 has about 75% tohit (its a bit smaller than that), then the +5 is hitting 50% more often than the +0. For an SR scrapper with 25% defense, net tohit of a +0 is 25%. a +5 "should" hit the SR scrapper 37.5% of the time, about 50% more often. *That* would be balanced (which is why I keep harping on using accuracy buffs to boost higher level and higher rank villains: thats exactly how they work).
Regen is incredibly sticky: there is no direct formula that says "X defense = Y regen" or anything remotely close. How this affects regen would be more complex if regen is changing, but it appears it isn't. Its really a question of how this swings the balance point between SR and regen for higher level foes, which is tricky, and highly dependent on how they elected to implement this. But this much is certain: the way regeneration works pretty much guarantees that low levels of even con minions are never a serious threat to regen. It has to do with how regen currently scales: it doesn't. So it has to be very strong against the very weak given the current limitations of the game engine. It would be almost like if the devs had to give us perma-elude to deal with heroic missions, because the boss at the end always had base 100% tohit. That's regen. Scaling regen is a much more complex problem than fixing the scaling of defense. But since the defense problem is that defense didn't scale *up*, that was the problem more people complained about: admittedly, few regens are likely to complain about their regeneration not scaling *down* correctly to even level minions.
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interesting
if this works as i think it may....
Ice armor and Super reflexes could become uber/FoTM
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Isn't that one of the signs of the apocalyse?
OK i have two theories of how it may work. The two posible formulas in my head are either:
a) (ToHit + buff - debuff) - DEF/50 * (ToHit + buff - debuff)
b) (ToHit - DEF/50 * ToHit) + buff - debuff
I made a small excel sheet with these forumlas so you can see the results with diferent numbers of enemy acc, debufs and buffs.
It is loaded right now with standard PvP numbers, that would be, 50 to hit chance, and +16.5 acc (thats what you get in pvp from one even ACC SO), with no debuffs.
You can find the Excel file here
You will notice it wont mean that you will floor a lt as easily as an AV with this formula, but they do get close with the same number (an AV gets to 7.6 acc with a 45% def)
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If the devs have done that, then in actual fact, +5s will hit SR more often than +0s, but just in a manner proportional to how much more often they tend to hit non-defensive sets.
[/ QUOTE ] Well, as I and others and yourself have said, it really depends on what they are truly talking about. Based on the OP statement, it sounds like we'll have the same 50% mitigation against +5's as we do +0's.
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If a +0 has base 50% tohit...
[/ QUOTE ] Yes. This seems to be the most plausible approach/implementation of what States is saying and be a much more palatable benefit than the one I had initially inferred.
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As far as I'm concerned, I'm very hesitant to label this as overpowered, just right, or not enough until we have a chance to test it.
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I am "cautiously optimistic" to use a Greenspan phrase. I have a lot of questions and, like your first comment, I also am anxious to see some details. With luck, Statesman will come back sometime before end of day tomorrow with a little clarification but this seems like a fairly broad change -- at least going by only what is in his post.
If implented with a very narrow focus, it could make defensive sets more attractive. If it applies to all defensive powers, it additionaly makes pools like Stealth and Fighting very attractive.
Under one scenario, I see sets that appear weak vs. higher level foes getting buffed. Under another scenario, I can see (vs. +con foes) combining defense and resistance (or mitigation in the case of Regen) to a degree that may put us back in the general range of effectiveness we saw in I4. But it is really tough to speculate and a lot more details are needed.
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I look forward to a detailed explanation of how this will work. 
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QFT
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Some more good news...
Ice Tankers and SR Scrappers have long lamented that Defense doesn't scale with level. Because mobs higher level than a player possess an inherent to hit bonus, Defense isn't as effective over levels as Resistance.
A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.
This change is coming in I7
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While I applaud this whole-heartedly, this doesn't fix AVs three shotting my EA brute. Same level, but just high enough base accuracy kicks my heiney left and right.
Now *if* that gets fixed, I'd want to see Defense/Accuracy inspirations revisited.
Still here, even after all this time!
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As far as I'm concerned, I'm very hesitant to label this as overpowered, just right, or not enough until we have a chance to test it. I suspect the devs have QA testing it now, or had them test it in the recent past, to see if it was fun/workable, but actual time on the test server may illustrate actual problems.
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Concurred.
Beleeted, LOL 
" For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense. "
Umm this change means this : Im a blaster. I go fight a +5 boss with a 95% chance to hit me (its more than that but clmaped a5% so 95 works when not considering debuffs). I die. Now I turn on combat jumping, and that boss has a 57.5% chance to hit me instead of the 95%.
this change would be a stealth buff to defense powers ( in the case of combat jumping vs 95% to hit the buff is 35%compared to 2.5%).
If this change is going to happen, all mobs within the +5 range should have a 50% chance to hit ANY player , not just thsoe with +DEF, unless your intending to do this.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
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And why scrappers? Not to be rude, but their "role" is not defensive... perhaps because they ARE changing the way DEF works globally?
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I bet thats just it.
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Actually, I'm guessing they are revoking the +/- scaling of mobs accuracy up to +5/-5. So no more double dinging accuracy *and* damage.
I've held the theory for quite a while that accuracy is directly affected by the purple patch. So while you take a 10% hit on your base accuracy at +1 level, mobs got a 10% bonus at +1.
+2 was +25%, +3 was +40% and +4 about +55%. (Barebrained numbers, BTW. Don't quote them.) +55% on minion accuracy (50%*1.55=77.5% or AV accuracy.)
Now take AV/Rulari accuracy and do the same. 75%*1.55=116.25%.
Subtract defense straight from both numbers and you realize why defense *really* doesn't scale well. You go from about 10-20% minion accuracy to about 30-40% at 140% damage. Basically doubling to tripling how often you get hit for half again as much damage.
Still here, even after all this time!
If the level diference bonus was removed, then everyone would be affected. States clearly noted how this will only affect players with def.
If anyone with just 1% def triggered this sort of selective application of level acc bonus, it would also make it all very unbalanced, as 1% would mean WAY more thanjust 1% so i doubt that either.
Check my post previous to this one to see what my actual theory is.
" it is loaded right now with standard PvP numbers, that would be, 50 to hit chance, and +16.5 acc (thats what you get in pvp from one even ACC SO), with no debuffs. "
States didnt say much about PVP - and rightfully so because it requires a potentially alternate solution.
This change has been stated to effect PVE - leave PVP out of it ( yes i know the +DEF sets need PVP fixes too, but rrelax a bit and see if they can even do it rigth for PVE first).
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
It's... uh... the reverse purple patch! 
Sounds keen. My FFer is happy to hear it, as is my energy stalker. I guess we'll have to wait and see the implementation.
I dare bet my head its just imposible for this change to NOT touch PvP in this way, since one of the issues of acc has always been stated how characters with too many inspirations and acc bonuses would easily negate def completely.
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As far as I'm concerned, I'm very hesitant to label this as overpowered, just right, or not enough until we have a chance to test it. I suspect the devs have QA testing it now, or had them test it in the recent past, to see if it was fun/workable, but actual time on the test server may illustrate actual problems.
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Concurred.
Beleeted, LOL
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" For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense. "
Umm this change means this : Im a blaster. I go fight a +5 boss with a 95% chance to hit me (its more than that but clmaped a5% so 95 works when not considering debuffs). I die. Now I turn on combat jumping, and that boss has a 57.5% chance to hit me instead of the 95%.
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It *might* mean that. But alternate interpretation is this:
You fight a +0 boss, that has 65% base accuracy. Flip on combat jumping, and CJ gives 2.5% defense, reducing tohit to 62.5%. Overall tohit drops to 96% of the original value (and equivalently, CJ is offering 4% total mitigation).
Now you fight a +5 boss, who has about 95% base tohit (its really just about that, actually). You flip on CJ. For CJ to be just as effective, it should reduce the chance to hit to 96% of its original value, or about 91%. CJ, in effect, is worth about 5 percentage points of defense against a +5 boss, 2.5 percentage points of defense against a +0 boss, but it always has the same 4 percent mitigation benefit. In effect, CJ "works equally well" against the +0 boss and the +5 boss (currently, CJ's effectiveness drops from about 4% against +0 bosses to about 2.5% against +5 bosses).
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A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.
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Halleleujah.
Will this also benefit Force Field?