Defense and Scaling
By
Aaron123,
Posted on: 2006-01-11 16:47 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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See my previous post for a potentially simpler way to get much more exact defense stability with level and rank.
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How can 5 paragraphs be simpler than a simple formula with 4 variables?
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Math intimidates people in a way that grammar never will.
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I've finally been accused of not using enough formulas! This one goes up on the refrigerator!
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FINALLY!!!
Wow. This is awesome!
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Math intimidates people in a way that grammar never will.
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I don't know, Kali... You read these forums a lot. Clearly some of these people would be more intimidated by grammar. 
F
While I'm happy this is happening (My lvl 38 Brute who is /EA thanks you) I'm concerned w/ what it means.
Per his words, +5 mobs will be treated as equal lvl mobs????
Equal level mobs do NOT hit me, so that means a +5 lvl mob will NOT hit me which means next the DEVs will have to add higher lvl difficulties for missions beyond Relentless.
Sorry, it's just that way.
Tourettes
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OK i have two theories of how it may work. The two posible formulas in my head are either:
a) (ToHit + buff - debuff) - DEF/50 * (ToHit + buff - debuff)
b) (ToHit - DEF/50 * ToHit) + buff - debuff
I made a small excel sheet with these forumlas so you can see the results with diferent numbers of enemy acc, debufs and buffs.
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Seems to me that the simplest solution would be to multiply your DEF by the same purple patch multiplier that increases the MOBs Base toHit.
So, if you're taking on a minion who has a 50% chance to hit you, and you have 20% DEF, you should get hit 30% of the time. Without your defense, you would have been hit 50% of the time. So, your DEF has reduced your damage 20/50 = 40% actual damage mitigation.
If the MOB is +1, his purple patch multiplier is ~ 1.1 (1.094). Raising his ToHit to 55%. If they multiplied your DEF by 1.1 it would be 33%. So the MOB would now hit you 55%-33% = 22% of the time. That means that your DEF has reduced your damage 22/55 = 40% actual damage mitigation.
In formulas that says it changes from
Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Purple_Patch_Multiplier - DEF
TO
Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Purple_Patch_Multiplier - DEF * Purple_Patch_Multiplier
The purple patch multiplier is above 1 if the MOB is higher con than you, and below 1 if the MOB is lesser con than you. So if it is as simple as that, they would be making your DEF less effective against foes that con blue and green in exchange for the better mitigation against reds and purples. That wouldn't be bad, but I suspect they may floor the effects of this change at 0 con foes, just as it is ceilinged at +5 cons.
I suspect that if the MOB is more than +5 levels above you, then your DEF is multiplied by the PPM for a +5 MOB instead of the actual con differntial (so a +6 hits you the way a +1 does today), and if the MOB is even con or below, they set the PPM to 1.
Hopefully they will tell us, but that seems the simplest way to go about it.
Thank you! This is a great move forward for my ice tank! 
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While I'm happy this is happening (My lvl 38 Brute who is /EA thanks you) I'm concerned w/ what it means.
Per his words, +5 mobs will be treated as equal lvl mobs????
Equal level mobs do NOT hit me, so that means a +5 lvl mob will NOT hit me which means next the DEVs will have to add higher lvl difficulties for missions beyond Relentless.
Sorry, it's just that way.
Tourettes
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Well if you think about it like that it could just be the other way around +5 mobs hit me so equal mobs will hit me... 
I think we should consider it to work just like resistance i.e. 50% resist is the same for a lvl 20 attack as for a lvl 40 attack, it cuts damage in half...
See, see. Lookit, Darkstar, Pilcrow is doing it to you also. Go get him.
Wait, actually he did it to me, too.
::Shakes fist in the air::
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::Happy Dance::
Thanks States! This is a welcome welcome change.
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See, see. Lookit, Darkstar, Pilcrow is doing it to you also. Go get him.
Wait, actually he did it to me, too.
::Shakes fist in the air::
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What'd I do?
Other than speculate, that is?
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Clearly, they intend to scale things for bosses vs minions same as +5s vs +0s.
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There's no need to refer me to the original post, which I read, thanks -- though I will note that I used Bosses versus Minions as an example of where a multiplication system for Def can go wrong because I happen to know the base tohits for those off the top of my head, compared to varying level mobs.
I will also say that intent sure doesn't equal reality all the time.
Also, technically, a percentage reduction in tohit does work equally well on all mobs, you know. You're still getting the same percentage reduction of the mob's Acc, even though the final effects (in terms of absolute Acc reduction) vary. I think we're just reading the post differently.
In any event, it's all speculation until it hits test.
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See my previous post for a potentially simpler way to get much more exact defense stability with level and rank.
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How can 5 paragraphs be simpler than a simple formula with 4 variables?
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Math intimidates people in a way that grammar never will.
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I've finally been accused of not using enough formulas! This one goes up on the refrigerator!
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Heh.
Mark it on the calendar, too.
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Doesn't this contradict the idea of reward scaling with risk?
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Good point, but it really doesn't. It reduces the risk, but you've still got more risk fighting a +4 than you do fighting a +3. The +4 will hit harder, have longer lasting status effects, etc. when he does hit. This is the inverse of than what damage resistance sets get today - for them, a +4 is more dangerous than a +3 because they'll get hit more often.
In theory, I like this change. It's nice to see a good number of improvements being considered. I'll withhold judgement on whether it'll work in practice until we see it on Test.
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Clearly, they intend to scale things for bosses vs minions same as +5s vs +0s.
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There's no need to refer me to the original post, which I read, thanks -- though I will note that I used Bosses versus Minions as an example of where a multiplication system for Def can go wrong because I happen to know the base tohits for those off the top of my head, compared to varying level mobs.
I will also say that intent sure doesn't equal reality all the time.
Also, technically, a percentage reduction in tohit does work equally well on all mobs, you know. You're still getting the same percentage reduction of the mob's Acc, even though the final effects (in terms of absolute Acc reduction) vary. I think we're just reading the post differently.
In any event, it's all speculation until it hits test.
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I was responding to this:
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My major concern with this change is that if it's implemented by changing Def from a flat accuracy reduction into a percentage reduction in accuracy (which would scale with level), Defense sets are actually getting dinged again.
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There are ways to do it which don't hurt defense sets with regard to rank, and since Statesman says it will work for both rank and level, I'm prepared to assume that whatever scheme they've cooked up, it does exactly that until I'm shown otherwise - although I share your apprehension that it might *not* work in precisely the way Statesman thinks it does.
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Doesn't this contradict the idea of reward scaling with risk?
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Good point, but it really doesn't. It reduces the risk, but you've still got more risk fighting a +4 than you do fighting a +3. The +4 will hit harder, have longer lasting status effects, etc. when he does hit. This is the inverse of than what damage resistance sets get today - for them, a +4 is more dangerous than a +3 because they'll get hit more often.
In theory, I like this change. It's nice to see a good number of improvements being considered. I'll withhold judgement on whether it'll work in practice until we see it on Test.
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Just to clarify, right now a +5 hits a resistance set more often than a +0, *and* hits that set harder, and therefore a resistance set takes more damage from a +5 than a +0. The same is true for a defense set, but while the damage increase per hit is the same for both, the relative amount they get hit more often is much higher for the defense set than the resistance set.
In other words, both might take 50% more damage per hit, but it might be the case that the resistance set is getting hit 50% more often, while the defensive set is getting hit 100% more often. *That* is the source of the disparity between defense and resistance when we say "defense doesn't scale with level." A similar statement can be made to describe the difference between minions and bosses, instead of +0s and +5s.
Whatever this patch does, it won't eliminate the risk in going after higher level or higher rank foes. All other elements of increased rank or level would still be in effect, including higher damage, and (in the case of higher levels) the purple patch itself, which reduces the effectiveness of your offensive capabilities (which slows down and extends the fight, increasing the damage you therefore take during the fight, and presumably putting you in more jeopardy).
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I look forward to a detailed explanation of how this will work.
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Ditto.
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Forming a line.
The easy way to do this is to increase all defense values by 50% to 100% and then make it a separate "dodge" roll, not a to-hit subtraction. But Statesman's post suggests otherwise, as he talks about scaling, but "only" up to +5. Seems they actually went and modified defense based on relative levels.
You know, this only looks like a buff to Tankers, Defenders and Scrappers. In reality this is also an enormous buff to Blasters and Controllers, both of whom are now going to be able to use the (admittedly few) defensive power-pools to great effect.
If all defense starts scaling then CJ will provide a true 5% damage mitigation. Stacking with Hover and Weave that becomes a rather impressive 15% across-the-board damage mitigation. Stacked with the personal defensive powers available from secondaries, this is rather considerable.
Just something to think about.
~Gabriel
though this is indeed good news, the post is too far from techincal. please have castle look it over and make a post .
*1 infamy sez they nerf lucks 
Yes! I'm NORMAL! What are you looking at freak!?
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Scaling defense buff = Current Defense * RankToHitBuff% * LevelToHitBuff%
One equation, three variables.
Mine and yours diverge under two circumstances. The first is if and when a villain group's even level minions ever have intrinsicly higher base tohit than 50%, separate from any actual tohit buffs. Second, by separating level and rank factors, it points to a possible mechanism for leveling off the defense scaling buff past +5, whereas yours doesn't distinguish between the two.
Someone is probably going to say something about the fact that there aren't any villain groups with minion base tohit anything other than 50%, and even if there were, you could simply look at that as an intrinsic tohit buff. Actually, *assuming* that they did anything remotely close to this, the possibility of having villain groups with intrinsicly higher base tohit in the future jumps dramatically; long time followers of defense and accuracy discussions might guess why, but beyond that I'd rather let that one lie for now.
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Turrets for one have higher acc (they are becoming every day more common)
Also, you are leting out buffs and debuffs (if i did that id have 2 variables only on my equation) and if you do that you are forgetting about one of the many issues of def, how a simple acc buff of the enemy can easily negate your def entirely.
Still, this is all assumption so best thing we can actualy do is wait and see.
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Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Purple_Patch_Multiplier - DEF * Purple_Patch_Multiplier
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The problem with this one would be that you are doing nothing to help with even enemies (or any level enemy) that has accuracy that is higer than 50%, so AVs, Bosses, turrets, etc, would still be gimping Defense.
NOW, if you did Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Purple_Patch_Multiplier - DEF * Purple_Patch_Multiplier * Rank_bonus
Then you do indeed get an actual scaling, but as far as i know, the rank bonus is not a calculated bonus itself, but simply the base of this enemy. Another issue is we are still leaving buffs and debuffs out. An advantage is that you wont always get negative numbers if you go above 50% def.
If it IS on a table, and enemy has an accuracy on a factor of... lets say 1 = 50 then 1.5 would mean the AV accuracy... Lets call it MinionDefIndex just as we do with brawls. In this case you can use this instead:
EnemyAcc - (Def * MinionDefIndex * (1+LevelBonus))
Still leaving out the buffs though.
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Some more good news...
Ice Tankers and SR Scrappers have long lamented that Defense doesn't scale with level. Because mobs higher level than a player possess an inherent to hit bonus, Defense isn't as effective over levels as Resistance.
A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.
This change is coming in I7
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I won't have to be in granite all the time! Whooo! back to an "Oh Sh*^!" button
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honestly, there are countless ways they could write the equations and get it right. I don't see why it would be at all hard to do, I'd be very happy if they'd show us the math, but, but I'm happy enough as it is. My 3 EA brutes will be most grateful.
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
Well the big question remains,
Does this go for all powers that give defense or just ice tankers and SR scrappers?
What about the stalkers and brute defense based sets?
bubbles?
weave?
etc
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My major concern with this change is that if it's implemented by changing Def from a flat accuracy reduction into a percentage reduction in accuracy (which would scale with level), Defense sets are actually getting dinged again.
Consider an SR toggle power that right now is 12.5% Def. Against an even con minion, that's actually a 25% reduction in its tohit (37.5/50). Against an even con boss, that's a 17% reduction in its tohit. If the devs simply transfer the current percentages over without adjusting them for such a system, you're taking at worst a 50% reduction in Defense. Under such a system, a minion's tohit would be 43.75 (50 * .875, instead of 50 - 12.5 = 37.5), and that boss would have a tohit of 65.63 (75 * .875, instead of 75 - 12.5 = 62.5). In fact, if the percentages aren't increased, your defense actually will scale *more* poorly as mobs go up in level, unless their base tohit is over 100.
In order to adjust the percentages properly, they'll need to make this change while simultaneously deciding the maximum level of mitigation that Def can provide; I think doubling all Def values would be a good place to start. Obviously, they can't be kept where they are now under this system.
I'm sure they've looked at all this already if the above system is what they're going to use, but if not, perhaps this can serve as a reminder. The devs, no offense, are not immune to the law of unintended consequences -- such as Parry letting you deflect shotgun blasts (Lethal) and Insulation Shield shielding you from some Psionic attacks (Ranged).
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I refer you to this specific quote from the OP:
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Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion.
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Clearly, they intend to scale things for bosses vs minions same as +5s vs +0s.
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