Defense and Scaling
By
Aaron123,
Posted on: 2006-01-11 16:47 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Awesome! Does that include all defensive sets? I know that CoV toons would like to have that as well...
Scrapper Slotting Basics
Brute Slotting Basics
Player A has 10% Defense and Player B has 20% resistance (per the 1 DEF=2 RES thing)
Even level minion has 50% ToHit and attacks 100 times with an attack that does 100pts of damage.
Player A gets hit 40 times for full damage. Total damage taken is 4000.
Player B gets hit 50 time for 80pts damage. Total damage taken is 4000.
Even level boss has 65% ToHit, which is a 30% increase over the minion, with the same attack chain as above.
Player A's Defense is increased 30% for a new defense of 13%, so he gets hit 52 times for full damage. Total damage taken is 5200 pts.
Player B gets hit 65 times for 80pts damage. Total damage taken is 5200 pts.
AV with 75% ToHit, which is a 50% increase over the minion, with the same attack chain.
Player A's Defense scaled up to 15%, so he's hit 60 times for full damage. Total damage taken is 6000 pts.
Player B gets hit 75 times for 80pts damage. Total damage taken is 6000pts.
Regardless of what the new ToHit formula is or whatever, doesn't this seem like the most logical thing to happen?
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honestly, there are countless ways they could write the equations and get it right.
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Right, but i do see a few reasons why it may actualy be tricky to get it perfectly right but until the devs actually tell anything, all we can do is have some fun with math!!! 
And on that line here is yet anoter theory!!! So far, based on a few comments by Geko on how accuracy works, I think accuracy works arround a base index just like Brawl Indexes work. This index seems to be 1 =75%. You may notice he has in ocations refered to Accuracy as 1.0 while its 75%. So this would mean a minnion has arround 0.6667.
With this we can go...
Acc_Idx = Base_Acc_idx * (1+Level_bonus) + Buff
Acc_Idx = Acc_Idx - ((Acc_Idx/.6667) * (debuff * (1 - Level_bonus)))
Final_Acc = (Acc_Idx * 75) - ((Acc_Idx/.6667) * Def)
In this theory I am actualy thinking (hoping) that a def debuf will also benefit from the change, but still applying to it a mitigation by level as any other debuff gets.
i just crapped myself with JOY
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Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level.
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Does this include all +Def powers, including Force Fields, Pools, etc.?
Will it affect +Res powers? (I assume not)
Will it affect -ToHit powers?
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Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Purple_Patch_Multiplier - DEF * Purple_Patch_Multiplier
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The problem with this one would be that you are doing nothing to help with even enemies (or any level enemy) that has accuracy that is higer than 50%, so AVs, Bosses, turrets, etc, would still be gimping Defense.
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Ooops. Good point there.
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NOW, if you did Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Purple_Patch_Multiplier - DEF * Purple_Patch_Multiplier * Rank_bonus
Then you do indeed get an actual scaling, but as far as i know, the rank bonus is not a calculated bonus itself, but simply the base of this enemy.
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But the "rank bonus" is really just: (Base_2Hit/50) so that additional factor simply requires re-leveraging a variable we already know. We don't need any vodoo, just add * Base_2Hit/50 to the end of the formula.
Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Purple_Patch_Multiplier - DEF * Purple_Patch_Multiplier * Base_2Hit/50, rank is covered, too.
For example, let's look at a guy with 25% DEF
<ul type="square">[*]Even con minion: 50 * 1 - 25 * 1 * 50/50 = 50-25 = 25 Net_2Hit = 50% mitigation[*]+1 minion: 50 * 1.1 - 25 * 1.1 * 50/50 = 55 - 27.5 = 27.5 Net_2Hit = 50% mitigation[*]even con boss: 65 * 1 - 25 * 1 * 65/50 = 71.5 - 32.5 = 3.5 Net_2Hit = 50% mitigation[*]+1 con boss: 65 * 1.1 - 25 * 1.1 * 65/50 = 71.5 - 35.75 = 35.75 Net_2Hit = 50% mitigation[/list]
I don't know if that produces the same results as your formula or not. Probably pretty close even if different since we're trying to guess how to accomplish his stated goal.
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Another issue is we are still leaving buffs and debuffs out.
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Well, not DEF debuffs. Just treat the DEF variable in my simplified initial funtion is NET defense (DEF - DEF_Debuffs + DEF_Buffs) and you have DEF buffs and debuffs accounted for.
But, assuming they wanted ACC buffs and debuffs to scale, too, they would make them multiplicative instead of additive debuffs.
If you apply a -5% ACC debuff to an enemy it is essentially added to their Base_2Hit. So a -5% ACC debuff would lower a minion to 45% ACC, and lower a Boss to 60% ACC, etc. That portion of the accuracy fornula looks like this:
Buffed_2Hit = Purple_Patch_multiplier * Base_2Hit +(2Hit_Buffs - 2Hit_Debuffs)
To make it scale you would change it to a multiplicative scale based on minion's Base_2Hit
Buffed_2Hit = Purple_Patch_multiplier * Base_2Hit * (50 + (2Hit_Buffs - 2Hit_Debuffs))/50
So now a -5% ACC debuff would lower an even con minion to 50% * (50%-5%)/50% = 50% * 45%/50% = 50% * 90% = 45%
And the same -5% ACC debuff would lower an even con Boss to 65% * ((50%-5%)/50% = 65% * 45%/50% = 65% * 90% = 58.5%.
If you wanted 2hit buffs to stop penetrating DEF, you would change the formula to:
Net_2Hit = Buffed_2Hit - DEF * Purple_Patch_Multiplier * Buffed_2Hit/50
But I suspect that they WANT 2Hit buffage to penetrate DEF, ergo the formula would be:
Net_2Hit = Buffed_2Hit - DEF * Purple_Patch_Multiplier * Base_2Hit/50
PS - I...I just wish this post had more formulas. So, let me turn it into one grand unified formula!!!!
Net_2Hit = Purple_Patch_multiplier * Base_2Hit * (50 + (2Hit_Buffs - 2Hit_Debuffs))/50 - (DEF + (DEF_Buffs - DEF_Debuffs)) * Purple_Patch_Multiplier * Base_2Hit/50
See, it's simple!
This is great news! even better than if u told us u saved a bunch of money by switching to geico....
lvl Em/Ea is lvl 39 so this should be out for the lvl 40-50 content woot!....
on a side note I think Statesman has been abducted by aliens and replaced with a clone. however the aliens lacked the technology to duplicate the very rare NERF GENE so they just left it out.
on a second side note, if rikti are aliens, we do they not use anal probes?
"Communication Officer has probed you for 124.7 points of internal damage!"
All I can say is wow! 
Oh does this apply to ninjitsu as well? 
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom
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Oh does this apply to ninjitsu as well?
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States says
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Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level.
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So i guess this means whatever it is, it will even help a fire tank with combat jump as his only source of def.
Oh and happy birthday
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All I can say is wow!
Oh does this apply to ninjitsu as well?
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this applys to all defense sets including ninjitsu he gave ice and SR as examples
If the way your thinking about the change is correct, would it be better to talk about defense in a different manner so that it is understood by everyone more easily? Talk about it more in the same terms that resistance is talked about.
What I'm trying to say is:
If you have 25% defense, the bad guys will always hit you 25% less than he hits someone with no defense. The same way that a person with 50% resistance will take 50% less damage from a bad guy than someone with 0 resistance.
Have they actually moved to the 1 Def = 2 Res?
Overall, the defense person and the resistance person are taking the same damage from the same bad guys up to +5.
If a "critter" swings 100 times with 50% acc, and hits for 100 damage:
Then
The person with 25% defense will take 2500 damage over the course of 100 swings.
&
The person with 50% resistance will take 2500 damage over the course of 100 swings.
If they put defense and resistance on the same scale then do we really have to talk about the mobs to-hit chance anymore? Won't damage mitigation be normalized as far as defense and resistance are concerned?
It just seems like there's a lot of confusion, and I agree, we need to wait for more information before finalizing our thoughts and feelings. But how in the world is the "average" player going to understand this? That's why I'm thinking we may need to talk about it in different terms than we have been talking about defense before. Instead of coming from a system of defense not scaling the same as resistance, perhaps we should begin to talk about it from the mindset that they are on the same scale, and mitigate damage similarly.
Great!!!!!
I think everyone that has or played an Ice tanker just slumped down in their seat and started crying with joy.
So maybe the simplest way to put it is:
FinalToHit = TotalToHit - ((TotalToHit/50)*TotalDefense)
TotalToHit being the attacker's ToHit after buffs, debuffs, purple patch, level difference, class difference, etc. etc.
TotalDefense being the target's Defense after buffs, debuffs, blah blah blah etc. etc.
Does that sound right?
I wonder if this need became apparent while testing a new shields powerset? I would think the rumored shields set would be heavily defensive.
OMG! I think I may actually be looking forward to I7.
We don' need no stinkin' signatures!
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Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Purple_Patch_Multiplier - DEF * Purple_Patch_Multiplier
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The problem with this one would be that you are doing nothing to help with even enemies (or any level enemy) that has accuracy that is higer than 50%, so AVs, Bosses, turrets, etc, would still be gimping Defense.
NOW, if you did Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Purple_Patch_Multiplier - DEF * Purple_Patch_Multiplier * Rank_bonus
Then you do indeed get an actual scaling, but as far as i know, the rank bonus is not a calculated bonus itself, but simply the base of this enemy. Another issue is we are still leaving buffs and debuffs out. An advantage is that you wont always get negative numbers if you go above 50% def.
If it IS on a table, and enemy has an accuracy on a factor of... lets say 1 = 50 then 1.5 would mean the AV accuracy... Lets call it MinionDefIndex just as we do with brawls. In this case you can use this instead:
EnemyAcc - (Def * MinionDefIndex * (1+LevelBonus))
Still leaving out the buffs though.
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I believe you are close, but {I believe} it works out like this...
Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * Purple_Patch_Multiplier * Mob_Rank_Modifier - DEF * Purple_Patch_Multiplier * Mob_Rank_Modifier.
This would neatly fit in with scaling mobs by rank (Boss <--> Lieutenants and the new ArchVillian <--> Elite Boss).
As both the purple patch modifer and rank modifier get passed to defense, if you *have* defense it increases in effectiveness based on what you are facing.
This has the benefit of making defense "better" against Lts, bosses and AVs *and* against increasing con.
With a hypothetical 30% defense, you would end up with a 20% chance to be hit against minions and against an AV you would get 50*1.5-30*1.5= 30% . That used to be a 45% chance that he would hit you.
So bosses and AVs would still hit more, but your defense isn't totally useless.
The only problem with this sort of equation is negative defense or a penalty to you defense, like Unyeilding, as this would effectively *increase* your penalty.
Still here, even after all this time!
Aw man, now my Invuln Tanker may be overpowered again.
I wonder what they'll have to take away next...
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Some more good news...
Ice Tankers and SR Scrappers have long lamented that Defense doesn't scale with level. Because mobs higher level than a player possess an inherent to hit bonus, Defense isn't as effective over levels as Resistance.
A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.
This change is coming in I7
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*blinks*
I've gotta have my eyes checked...it looks like Statesman is doing something to INCREASE survivability! Gotta be a catch somewhere...
*takes out 2nd 9 inch needle out of States Voodoo doll*
(1st was for stealth nerf retraction)
keep them coming States only 37 more to go!
(yeah I have a fire tank)
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Hmmm...
I haven't played a low level /SR for a couple of months, so at low levels, this makes a difference. But at higher levels, with SO's...i'm fighting on Invinc...without insp. If you allow my defense to work this good against +5's....that's just too good, imo.
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I have the same experience. SR's sort of a dog at low levels. I remember my Ice/Fire not being able to tank very well unless I was fighting whites and lower -- I remember yellow Council making swiss cheese out of me. Sort of embarrassing...
But once they get up into the SO range, things change immensely because the character has picked up many useful protective powers plus stronger attacks, reducing incoming damage.
I haven't hit AV's yet with a Defense-based toon, so I don't know how that works out, but right now I'm flying high. The Ice/Fire tank I mention is level 35 and can solo large groups of white and yellow Nemesis soldiers in Creys, no problem, as well as groups of yellow/orange DE. (Sure, I take some damage, but I've got a good build and can compensate for it.)
I doubt the Devs would be so blind as to just tack this on without considering the ramifications... after all they eat and breathe this game!
But I'm really interested in seeing how it's implemented.
Hmm.
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Hmm.
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a post should be either funny, informative, a question or a combination of the three.
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a post should be either funny, informative, a question or a combination of the three.
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You forgot condescending.
Just read the news this change sounds awesome, I'll bring my SR scrapper back out now. I'm just wondering though if this change works for all defensive powers or just Ice and SR. For instance will Invincibility have this same effect? Cloak of Darkness? Stone armors? That's the question I would love to have answered right now.
He used them as an example ALL defense will be like that.....My 37 SS/EA brute will be most satisfied muahahahaha