Soulscorch

Just a thought, but perhaps due to AT differences Blueside and Redside it might happen more over here.

I don't know. It seems to happen to me all the time when I team.

The difference being that if a stray AoE takes out 1 of the 10 people, it doesn't potentially keep you from damaging the remaining 8.

That's what it does to CI.

If the charged target is killed by the splash before the charge jumps, it won't jump. Meaning that no matter how many people you would have/could have damaged, you didn't get the opportunity to damage any of them because your first target died while still charged.

Could the AoE have take out 9/10 of them? Sure, and you're then in the same boat as you would be with any AoE. But that's not the problem. There is an extra problem in addition to that that if the charged target dies before the jump, your AoE is wasted as well. It has the same quirk all AoE's have in addition the this one.

Play with it for a few levels. It happens more than you think it would.

You could consider the incredible lack of ST damage that ELM has quite a drawback.

Was DM a terrible set before SL got buffed? Nope. Did it/does it have poor AoE damage? Yep

Is ELM a terrible set with the current CI? Nope. Does it have poor ST damage? Yep.

Again, the reason I didn't start the first post with numbers, was because my initial problems with the power weren't the numbers. It was how the power worked.

If you want to keep the numbers the same, I'm fine with that. I'd just like a power that reliably does whatever it's supposed to do. Somehow I doubt that the power is supposed to be reliably unreliable.

Hell, keep the numbers. Keep the .5s delay. How about just make it calculate the hit or miss for 5 targets when activated so that death or movement don't affect the outcome? That would be a great starting point.

Fair enough. Big deal. It doesn't change anything as I said before. Since I used Mids #'s throughout, they're all off together. So you reduce them all by the same amount, and the comparison is still the same.

Then look at the comparison to WS or Slice. CI still looks bad, and comes up short.

So not only are they better numerically, but also have arguably better secondary effects? Boy, that's a good reason not to improve CI.

And your point about them doing it with other powers sure does dismiss the idea that they should do something for this power as well. Good point there.

Wow, aren't you the *** of the internet. You must feel like a big boy.


I think it's extremely misleading to assume CI will do it's damage in 1s. Notice I wasn't listing this as an attack chain argument. Attack chains have already been looked at by many others, and I don't remember Electric Melee shining too well there either.

Hitting 10 people with whirling sword/lotus drops/fire sword circle is pretty easy. Especially since as soon as you start to fire the attack, it doesn't matter if those foes are knocked all over the map. They'll still be hit.

I went over the cone argument in perhaps my second post in this thread. Is it reasonable to expect 5 people? Not usually. Is it reasonable to expect 5 from CI? Nope.

So what was your point exactly?

Oh yeah, it was the asinine superiority complex you seem to want to display. Carry on.

Again, I think it's incredibly disingenuous to assume that you get CI's damage in 1s. You don't. Those extra 2 seconds to deliver the damage can play out in the actual game very different from on paper, especially in a team situation. But I'm sure you've spent actual game time with the power and aren't just looking at a spreadsheet right?

Doing that does nothing to help with the other problems the power has that I've listed multiple times. Neither did the damage solution I put forth earlier, that was supposed to be an example of something quick that didn't actually require much effort into fixing how the power worked. I'd rather the power worked well, and the numbers stayed the same. I only got into the numbers because someone claimed that it wasn't the same as an AoE.

Here's another off the cuff idea for you to ***** about. Look back at Siphon Life. It heals 10% of 1339 hp's. We'll call it 134 so we won't argue about decimals again. If you get one heal enhancement in it you get 178 HP's. Not too shabby, and that's not even looking at the gaudy 90+% heal on top of max damage some people have (~255HP's). That's a freebie for that power as you so eloquently explained above, and nothing the power is balanced around.

Let's consider the jumps a freebie for CI. Let's give it something close to 178 HP's worth of jump damage. 178/4 = ~45 damage/jump. That's a value of .72 damage. A whopping 10% increase in jump damage. And then since the jumps are a freebie, obviously CI needs a base damage increase closer to 2.05, and also a recharge reduction of 4 seconds. That way it's in line with the other similar powers. Remember, we're just calling the extra damage a freebie. One could argue that you don't always get full jump damage whereas you always get the full heal. Hell, I'll even spot you an activation time increase to a whopping 2 seconds. Feel better? Now we have a 2 second activating CI that does 2.05 damage to the first target, and has potential jumps to 4 other targets for .72 damage each. Of course CI still costs 10.2 end, but it's recharge would now be 10s.

***** away.

And the funny thing is, you'll still think that the numbers are the problem with the power.

Well, -10% End to the target is pretty much worthless, and no, it doesn't make the attack any cheaper.

It subtracts 10 end from whatever you are fighting. It doesn't return 10% end to you. Charged Brawl and Havoc Punch are the two powers that do that. I assume CI doesn't because it's actually a summons.

You are correct, I didn't list the -100% recovery for however long (Mids has it listed as a 1 s Duration, but that's so worthless I'll not believe that. Instead I'll assume it's something like 10s.)

But Dark Melee is actually good at debuffing the ToHit of an enemy.
Broadsword can make a not completely insignificant different in the defense of an enemy.

I think you would be hard pressed to find an Electric Melee scrapper finding a good use for end drain. Since to have any noticeable effect, you need to drain a lot (upwards of 90%) if not all an enemies end. And I certainly wouldn't think that the end drain + the awkward jumps is reason enough for a 33% reduction in damage and a 40% increase in recharge. Would you care to argue that point?

I realize powers aren't balanced in a vacuum, but the damage/end/recharge of this power seems to have been designed in a vacuum since it doesn't get close to conforming to any of the standards of other powers.

The jumps aren't fast enough not because of followup damage, but because of how the chain works. If a link in the chain dies, the chain ends.

That means if you're surrounded by 5 guys
Hit CI
CI hits first foe
wait .5s
Jump to 2nd foe
wait.5s
Jump to 3rd foe
wait .5s
Jump to 4th foe
wait .5s
Jump to 5th foe

If splash damage takes out any foe in that chain, CI stops. That means you've paid for an AoE that didn't get a chance to hit or miss all of the foes in range. It's not about a followup attack from you. Plus if any foe is Knocked out of range of his friends, his charge can no longer jump to his friends, also ending your chain.

The hit foes that are hard to hit argument doesn't hold a lot of water IMO. Sure, the jumps have a high accuracy, but you still have to hit the first guy for it to work. If you miss the first hard to hit target, you're actually in worse shape than you would have been in than missing with a normal attack since if the normal attack is an AoE you still get a chance to hit his friends that are in range, and if it's a ST attack, you've not wasted nearly as much End.

Even when you do hit the first guy, you are only tickling his friends with your mighty .65 damage.

Didn't say I couldn't use it. I said it wasn't nearly as reliable as other AoE's. It's not reliable not because of anything the player can control. Instead it's unreliable because of outside influences.

It's not a learn to play better issue in that regard, it's a use it the best you can, and hope things outside of your control don't negatively affect it. That's not how most other attacks work. With other attacks, I push the button, and I know what to expect to happen. The vast majority of the time, that's exactly what happens. Enemy movement and outside damage have no effect on how other powers perform, but they have a great impact on this one.

But even then, the numbers show that when used to it's full extent, it still lags behind other powers by a not insignificant amount. You can learn to use it as effectively as you want, but that won't make the power do something it can't.

The condescending tone is a bit much. At least I cited where I got all my data. And even if your numbers are correct, they really don't make any difference in my arguments which still stand.

According to MIDS v1.6 (like the first line of the first post says, so look there if you want to argue exact decimals):

Crane Kick - 2.15 Dam 10.2 End 10 Rech
Siphon Life - 2.15 Dam 10.2 End 10 Rech
Disembowel - 2.15 Dam 10.2 End 10 Rech

All 3 powers do 134.9 damage. Scrappers do a base of 62.6 (technically 62.56 I think)

134.9/62.6 = 2.15

Siphon life also has a quite useful heal component to it. Which is a point that actually helps my argument.

Siphon Life:
2.15 Dam, 10.2 End, 10 Rech + 10% enhanceable heal + -5.63% ToHit

Chain Induction
1.45 Dam, 10.2 End, 14 Rech + potential to do four .65 Dam jumps.

It gets a 33% reduction in damage and a 40% increase in recharge time for the hampered potential of 4 piddly splashes of .65 damage.

What did Siphon Life give up for the automatic 10% Heal?
What did Siphon Life give up for the automatic -5.63% ToHit?
What did Disembowel give up for the automatic -7.5% def?
What did Crane Kick give up for the automatic 6.23 KB?

As I pointed out in my last post which you seem to have glossed over; the power is pretty balanced with other melee AoE's when used against a ST. Outside of that terrible instance it's not balanced numerically, and maybe more important, it's actual use in game play is hindered.

It costs as much end as TS, does less damage, and recharges shorter. I'd say it costs more than this AoE, but still doesn't work as well. TS does 1.0 damage to 10 people plus an addition .96 damage to the main target. A total of 10.96 damage to 10 people for 10.2 End and recharges in 18s. CI does .65 damage to 5 people and an additional .8 damage to the first target for a total of 4.05 damage to 5 people for 10.2 end and recharges in 14s.

It costs more end than JL, does less damage, and recharges longer. It definitely costs more than this AoE, and definitely doesn't work as well. JL does 1.65 damage to 5 people equally for a total of 8.25 damage to 5 people for 8.53 end and recharges in 8 s.

It's not numerically balanced.

Total Possible Damage per person:
10.96/10 = 1.096
8.25/5 = 1.65
4.05/5 = .81

Total Possible Damage per end
10.96/10.2 = 1.07
8.25/8.53 = .97
4.05/10.2 = .4

Total Possible Damage per Activation
10.96/3 = 3.65
8.25/1.67 = 4.94
4.05/(1+.5 +.5 +.5 +.5) = 1.35
There is a .5s delay between jumps, so in order to hit 5 people, it'll take you 3s. Even to hit 2 people it will take you 1.5s making it a 2.7 DpA.

Against 1 Target:
TS - 1.96
JL - 1.65
CI - 1.45

DPE/1 target
1.96/10.2 = .192
1.65/8.53 = .193
1.45/10.2 = .142

DPA/1 Target
1.96/3 = .65
1.65/1.67 = .99
1.45/1 = 1.45


That's against AoEs. It'll only look worse against ST's. So tell me how this power is balanced? The only thing it beats 2 other AOE's in is DPA against 1 target. Otherwise it falls far behind them.

If you want to compare it to a base Scrapper AoE let's look at Whirling Sword and Slice:

Total Possible Damage per person:
14/10 = 1.4
6.76/5 = 1.35
4.05/5 = .81

Total Possible Damage per end
14/10.2 = 1.37
8.25/8.53 = 1.35
4.05/10.2 = .4

Total Possible Damage per Activation
14/2.67 = 5.24
6.76/2 = 3.38
4.05/(1+.5 +.5 +.5 +.5) = 1.35

AoE Against 1 Target:
WS - 1.4
SL - 1.35
CI - 1.45

DPE/1 target
1.4/13 = .108
1.35/8.53 = .158
1.45/10.2 = .142

DPA/1 Target
1.4/2.67 = .52
1.35/2 = .675
1.45/1 = 1.45

Looking at the #'s to WS and Slice, it's mostly balanced properly for an AoE against 1 target. But when used as an actual AoE, it's terrible.

Compare it to a ST attack and these numbers will look horrible.

Why is this power only balanced around being and AoE used as a ST attack?

If you've actually used the power in regular gameplay, you will see that it's also harder in several situations to get it to function properly.

A simple, easy, quick fix would be to make each jump do full damage and lower the end cost a tad. That would at least place it closer to par with other AoE's.

Full damage jumps:
Total Possible Damage per person:
(1.45*5) = 7.25

Total Possible Damage per end
7.25/10.2 = .71
If it cost 8.53
7.25/8.53 = .85

Total Possible Damage per Activation
7.25/3 = 2.42

AoE Against 1 Target:
CI - 1.45

DPE/1 target
1.45/10.2 = .142
Lowered end cost
1.45/8.53 = .17

DPA/1 Target
1.45/1 = 1.45

A quick tidbit. A ST attack for a scrapper that costs 10.2 end should be a 2.15 damage power and recharge in 10 seconds. CI does 1.45 damage and recharges in 14 s. That's a large penalty for AoE potential that also makes it a crappy AoE power.

No, that's not what I've said at all.
Problems:
It's not just different. There's more to it than that. I actually like the different idea and the concept towards it. It just doesn't function like the power you are paying for.

Except if they don't survive, then I've wasted an AoE on a ST. Not only do I need the initial target to survive, I need all his friends to survive as well to get the full effect of the power.

I'm not a stalker. I'm playing a scrapper. % chance to crit is something completely irrelevant to this discussion as that's an AT attribute for the power. I'm talking about how the power works across all AT's.

If you assume that those %'s are based off player accuracy:

I have a 75% chance to hit the first guy
Jump 1 has a 150% chance to hit 2nd guy
Jump 2 has a 112.5% chance to hit 3rd guy
Jump 3 has a 93.75% chance to hit 4th guy
Jump 4 has a 75% chance to hit 5th guy.

.75 * 1.5 * 1.125 * .9375 * .75 = 89% chance to hit 5 targets.

I don't know how a pet's accuracy is scaled from the enhancements. But assuming that they benefit from Acc enhancements, the power basically it gets a small accuracy boost looking at it like that.

My problem isn't with it being able to hit. It's that is HAS to hit the previous target in order to get a chance to hit.

I don't get a shot at guy 3, 4, or 5, unless guy 1 & 2 are hit. The hardest guy to hit is Guy #1. If I missed him, then I missed every target of my AoE. That's my problem. Most if not all AoE's in this game don't work that way.

I think I might have been unclear.

If your any target in the chain dies, the power stops jumping. It's over. No extra damage is passed on to another target. If it's the first target that dies, you just paid for an AoE power, and got a ST power instead.

If I line up 5 guys for Jacob's Ladder, if the main target dies, the other 4 still take damage. Is it a meaningful debate to suggest that it's very tough to get 5 guys lined up? Sure. Is it that tough to get 2? Not really. 3? Maybe. But in either the 2 or 3 man instances, you don't have to make sure that your main target will survive your attack to ensure that it will function as an AoE. That seems like it misses the point of the power just a bit. I'm going to attack you, but I need you to be able to survive this attack in order to make it work properly. (Not to mention the fact that JL does more damage has a faster recharge, and costs less end than CI)

If a bad guy has a brawl's sliver of life left and I use TS on him, I expect him to die and the AoE to still go off. I don't expect to get shortchanged on the AoE.

This is especially true in a team situation when I can't control the amount of damage a bad guy takes. Suppose I've planned CI perfectly to where he'll have some life left and I'll get my jumps out of him and his friends, but at the same time I'm firing CI, someone else finishes him off with splash AoE damage. My AoE is still wasted. Because my AoE had to wait .5 s after hitting to then decide to jump. I'm not concerned with the main target die from my power or from my teammates, but rather that my AoE power didn't function like an AoE. I took the time and the care to do what I could to make it function, which is often a lot more than I have to do with other AoE's, but it still didn't work. Although my El/El scrapper is only 35, that's happened a ton in the 11 levels I've had CI. I'm already busy switching targets to try to use CI on a guy that won't die, and when I find one and press the button, he's either killed or hurt enough for CI to finish him off before the power is able to jump.

I'm looking at dusting my Fire/Fire/Fire off, but I had a quick question.

Burn is a power I've never used on my Blaster as I hate the scatter, and it ruins my other PBAoE's from /Fire.

But another thing I haven't tried is slotting Hot Feet for Slows. (I'm usually cheap and stick a set of multistrike in there because it's good on Acc/end/Dam and cheap).

With Hot Feet well slotted for Slow, is that enough to make Burn viable?

Jump in a spawn, hit them with your initial FB + FSC, let BA do it's thing, and with Hot Feet slowing them, will they stay in a Burn patch long enough for it to be effective?

I'm looking at slotting Hot Feet with Pacing of the Turtle and a couple Multistrikes, giving it a 121% slow effect. Would that be enough to basically make the bad guys stand still for the duration of a Burn patch? A Pseudo-AoE Immobilize so to speak?

I hated putting the Numina in HF, but that's the only heal set with ranged def bonus, and I was trying to get my defenses to the 30% point.

Hmm...

...Ok, I tried a few things.

Removed Miracle and Numina. Moved the 6th HF slot, losing 3.75 ranged D(that used to have the Numina), into SJ and put 2 Blessing of the Zephyr in there for 3.13 ranged D (almost a wash). Then changed the 3 slotted Def in CJ to 1 slotted D and 2 Blessing of the Zephyr in there for another 3.13 ranged D.

This makes my D totals:
Defense:
Smashing 27%
Lethal 27%
Fire 15.8%
Cold 15.8%
Energy 28%
N Energy 28%
Psionic 14.8%
Melee 33.6%
Ranged 35.6%
AoE 16.7%

No idea how expensive 4 Blessing of the Zephyrs are but the have to be less than a Numina and a Miracle. Right...?

I'd like to use KB Enh, but those things are outrageously priced. Plus I'm fine with Acro since there's not another power I'm in dire need of, and I don't have the slots for anything anyway.

Also, since I removed the 6th slot from HF, I could also remove the 5th slot and just leave the power 4 slotted. Then I could stick a mix of 4 heal/recharge's in there and get about 88-89% in each (which is more recharge than previous, 56%). This would free up a slot to stick in Stamina to allow me to add another end mod in it.

How much does the performance shifter unique add to stamina? I tried watching it last night to see if I could tell a difference, but the jerky kins on the team kept speed boosting me (sarcasm). It says 20% chance for 10 end. Is that per tick of stamina? How often does Stamina tick?

Thanks for the help so far.

Lol. Didn't realize that was there. Ignore it, I was probably just messing around.

If I could actually afford a miracle, it'd go in Health.

So my End Rec # would probably be nearer to 2.6/s.