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This is because the damage of the power is based on 24 attempts to deal damage with a 50% chance of success. You're going to have damage variability.|
Originally Posted by Hercules
1. It does not consistently bring down even minions. I'd say about 50 percent of the time, you have several minions still standing with anywhere from 10 to 50% HPs remaining.
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| 2. The accuracy is not where it needs to be. I have it two slotted with accuracy enhancements. I'd say around 25% of the time, there are several mobs standing with zero damage taken. Several times, I've completely missed ALL mobs. Pretty embarrassing when you unload from stealth and all the mobs are still unaware of your presence... |
Now, what you may want to do is familiarize yourself with the power first before you make another untrained and largely useless suggestion again. It's rather obvious you don't know how the power operates or what the current values on the power already are, much less that there are actually changes coming that would address your concerns.
In I17, the power is getting changed to deal slightly more damage per successful tick (roughly 2.225%) but the big difference is that each tick is going to have a 60% chance to deal damage, compared to the 50% that it currently sits at. Based just off of that, you're going to experience roughly 22.67% more damage out of the power on average. You'll also notice fewer cataclysmic misses (if you did, in fact, experience any that weren't just a player issue).
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Sounds like a step in the right direction, although I'd prefer a higher hit rate, with perhaps a random range of damage taken per mob.| In I17, the power is getting changed to deal slightly more damage per successful tick (roughly 2.225%) but the big difference is that each tick is going to have a 60% chance to deal damage, compared to the 50% that it currently sits at. Based just off of that, you're going to experience roughly 22.67% more damage out of the power on average. |
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| You'll also notice fewer cataclysmic misses (if you did, in fact, experience any that weren't just a player issue). |
131430 Starfare: First Contact
178774 Tales of Croatoa: A Rose By Any Other Name ( 2009 MA Best In-Canon Arc ) ( 2009 Player Awards - Best Serious Arc )
It is not impossible that, while walking down the street, a live cow spray painted bright pink might fall on the person walking beside you. Just out of the blue, from the sky above. It could happen.
It is, however, so preposterously unlikely that upon telling people about the event some (or even most) are bound to suspect you are making things up.
Or, to use an example more directly tied to your experience:
Say your 'group' consists of 10 enemies. Alright, for each enemy, pick up a quarter. Heads is Damage, Tails is No Damage. Flip each of those quarters 24 times.
What you're saying is that you flipped a quarter two hundred and forty times, and it came up tails, or landed right on it's side and fell between the leaves of your table (to represent the 5% miss chance everyone has). Every. Single. Time.
240 flips and not even a single result of Heads that stays on the table? This is so preposterously unlikely that upon telling people about the event, some (or even most) are bound to suspect you are making things up.
You can drop the group size to 5 and make the claim about 120 attempts, but the result is still the same. I'm not saying you are lying to make your point, I'm saying that while it's possible it happened, I am incredibly skeptical.
How big are the groups you are fighting? Unlike true "rain" powers, HoB only makes one initial set of to-hit checks (rather than one per tick)... that means that while rains can hit more than 16 targets for at least some damage, HoB can only affect 16 targets max. If there are more than that in the group you are going to have some untouched no matter what.
As far as missing everything goes, that sounds like some sort of lag issue or else you are standing a bit too far away when you fire it off... the odds of it happening (assuming you aren't heavily to-hit debuffed) are so low that you should see it maybe once in a lifetime if you are very unlucky. It's far more likely that the targets you thought were in range actually weren't, for whatever reason. If you are superspeeding in and firing it off, too much lag might make the server think you were still outside the enemy group or something.
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
So 2 questions on slotting HoB because I don't really know how this power works:
1) What will a damage proc do in this power? Do you get a 20% chance for the proc to fire on all 24 attempts per enemy, or do you just get 1 chance for it to fire per enemy? I'm betting the latter, but I can hope for the former.
2) What do people find the best slotting to be?
The odds of completely missing a group of enemies are better than you might think since the power checks Defense only once per enemy. If the enemy is hit by the initial strike, it suffers DoT that is completely random and unaffected by Defense.
The lowest possible odds you can get for a miss on the initial die roll are as follows:
One enemy missed - ~1 in 20
Two enemies missed - ~1 in 40
Three enemies missed - ~1 in 80
Four enemies missed - ~1 in 160
Five enemies missed - ~1 in 320
The reason these odds are "about 1 in 20" instead of absolutely is it is possible to hit with the intial die and then miss all 24 independant DoT checks. The odds of this happening are ridiculously slim, and even if it does the secondary effects still apply.
Anyway, even at its very best, Hail of Bullets will miss a group of 5 targets about once every 320-ish uses. The power recharges in about one minute when slotted, so if you play a lot it will miss a group of 5 about every 5 or 6 hours. This is just the best case scenario though; if the enemy has some extra Defense it will miss far more frequently.
Note that these are actually the same odds that any AoE would miss if the chance to hit was capped.
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Interesting stats... the groups I missed contained about 4-5 mobs ( soloing even con enemies ). Happened on two occasions. Missing 1 or 2 out of the 5 happens fairly often, unfortunately. In comparison to my ice/ice blaster, this is fairly weak.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
The odds of completely missing a group of enemies are better than you might think since the power checks Defense only once per enemy. If the enemy is hit by the initial strike, it suffers DoT that is completely random and unaffected by Defense.
The lowest possible odds you can get for a miss on the initial die roll are as follows: One enemy missed - ~1 in 20 Two enemies missed - ~1 in 40 Three enemies missed - ~1 in 80 Four enemies missed - ~1 in 160 Five enemies missed - ~1 in 320 The reason these odds are "about 1 in 20" instead of absolutely is it is possible to hit with the intial die and then miss all 24 independant DoT checks. The odds of this happening are ridiculously slim, and even if it does the secondary effects still apply. Anyway, even at its very best, Hail of Bullets will miss a group of 5 targets about once every 320-ish uses. The power recharges in about one minute when slotted, so if you play a lot it will miss a group of 5 about every 5 or 6 hours. This is just the best case scenario though; if the enemy has some extra Defense it will miss far more frequently. Note that these are actually the same odds that any AoE would miss if the chance to hit was capped. |
131430 Starfare: First Contact
178774 Tales of Croatoa: A Rose By Any Other Name ( 2009 MA Best In-Canon Arc ) ( 2009 Player Awards - Best Serious Arc )
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lolrape
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Originally Posted by Umbral
This is because the damage of the power is based on 24 attempts to deal damage with a 50% chance of success. You're going to have damage variability.
The accuracy on the power is already incredibly high. The base acc mod on the power is 1.4 ("normal" is 1.0). With 2 acc enhancers, you're giving yourself a 2.324 total acc mod. That's enough to get ~95% chance to hit on even +4 enemies. I can assure you that there is not a problem with HoB's accuracy. What you might be noticing is "missing" with the damage attempts, but that's not in the least affected by your slotting. You can end up dealing no damage to a target, but the probability that you would deal no damage to the entire enemy group, however, is astronomically low (.0002% chance for a single target; for multiple targets, you have to begin using scientific notation to describe just how unlikely to happen it is), so I'm fairly sure that, if it's happened to you on multiple occasions, it's a pebkac issue. Now, what you may want to do is familiarize yourself with the power first before you make another untrained and largely useless suggestion again. It's rather obvious you don't know how the power operates or what the current values on the power already are, much less that there are actually changes coming that would address your concerns. In I17, the power is getting changed to deal slightly more damage per successful tick (roughly 2.225%) but the big difference is that each tick is going to have a 60% chance to deal damage, compared to the 50% that it currently sits at. Based just off of that, you're going to experience roughly 22.67% more damage out of the power on average. You'll also notice fewer cataclysmic misses (if you did, in fact, experience any that weren't just a player issue). |
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Originally Posted by Soulscorch
So 2 questions on slotting HoB because I don't really know how this power works:
1) What will a damage proc do in this power? Do you get a 20% chance for the proc to fire on all 24 attempts per enemy, or do you just get 1 chance for it to fire per enemy? I'm betting the latter, but I can hope for the former. 2) What do people find the best slotting to be? |
To answer part 1), the proc fires once at the time the power is activated.
The mechanics of Hail of Bullets are easy to understand once you look past the slightly misleading animation. The graphics make it look like a PBAoE pulse power along the lines of Hot Feet. You might expect anything that walks into range while the power is activating to get hit, but this doesn't happen.
What the power really is is a pumped up version of Irradiate from the Radiation Blast set. You make a ToHit roll at the moment the power is fired. If you hit something, it then suffers 24 independent damage-over-time ticks. Each tick has only a 50% (soon to be 60%, from the sound of it) chance to apply damage. The DoT is located on the enemy, exactly like it would be with Irradiate, or with a Controller power like Stone or Fire Cages. Even if the enemy runs out of range or you die, it still continues taking damage if it got hit by the initial defense roll.
As for 2, I don't know that a consensus has been reached. HoB is pretty complicated and has way more slotting options than most nukes do.
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Since the only enhanceable secondary effects on HoB are Slow and KB and neither really seems worth enhancing (the slow is only 20%), I'd treat it like any other crashless nuke. That means max damage, max recharge, and enough accuracy to hit whatever you normally fight 95% of the time. Since HoB has 1.4x base accuracy that means one Acc SO will do the job unless you fight really high level enemies, and you can leave it at base accuracy if you only fight +1s and have a 6% to-hit IO (or you always plan to use Build Up first).|
Originally Posted by Soulscorch
2) What do people find the best slotting to be?
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My suggested slotting:
SOs / Generic IOs: 3x Damage / 3x Recharge or 2x Damage / 1x Accuracy / 2x Recharge, depending on what you fight and whether you have any to-hit buffs.
Sets: 5 Obliteration (6 if you want S/L defense) or 5 Armageddon if you can afford it, otherwise frankenslot for ED capped damage and recharge plus enough accuracy to hit your preferred targets. If you can get all the enhancement toy need from 5 slots, add a proc in the 6th.
Probably the best slotting is Armageddon (all but the Dam/End IO) + Eradication: Chance for Energy Damage. That gives ED capped damage, almost capped recharge, good accuracy, and two non-S/L procs (one of them a purple). Unless you're very rich, in which case you can replace the Eradication proc with a Fury of the Gladiator: Chance for Resistance Debuff.
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
Quote:
I think the disconnect is coming from the fact that you can crank the power's accuracy to the cap, but it has only a marginal effect on your ability to defeat any given target. Once the initial attack has hit, nothing in your slotting affects whether each individual tick of damage hits. This creates a perception of suckiness in the power, as the base stats for the power make it relatively easy to cap the initial-roll accuracy while not visibly affecting the damage done by the power. I suspect that the general perception of the power is that it should be a rain power, but it's not performing like a rain power.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
In I17, the power is getting changed to deal slightly more damage per successful tick (roughly 2.225%) but the big difference is that each tick is going to have a 60% chance to deal damage, compared to the 50% that it currently sits at. Based just off of that, you're going to experience roughly 22.67% more damage out of the power on average. You'll also notice fewer cataclysmic misses (if you did, in fact, experience any that weren't just a player issue).
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"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
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Nope you are not crazy|
Originally Posted by Hercules
Anyone else think the top tier DP power needs some buffing?
Two things I've noticed repeatedly while playing my DP blaster: 1. It does not consistently bring down even minions. I'd say about 50 percent of the time, you have several minions still standing with anywhere from 10 to 50% HPs remaining. 2. The accuracy is not where it needs to be. I have it two slotted with accuracy enhancements. I'd say around 25% of the time, there are several mobs standing with zero damage taken. Several times, I've completely missed ALL mobs. Pretty embarrassing when you unload from stealth and all the mobs are still unaware of your presence... Suggestions: Increase base accuracy significantly. Increase damage to where it can consistently take out 100% of a minion's health. |
Yep i noticed the huge missing too....kind of makes me laugh when it happens on bullet rain....i always laugh when everyone gets hit except for that one lone straggler who most likely was your target.....LMAO...or better yet you miss the entire group....(It must be the Storm Trooper DNA in my Pistol Blaster)
As I play....and probably because i tend to always miss the most when i need it to hit...i would say i feel like it has an accuracy of 50%
My hero stats program reports i have an accuracy of 68% so go figure....and no i dont have my game difficulty turned up.
The in game stats reports i have 85% or something like that....LMAO...in game stats are wrong on alot of stuff(like telling me i fly at 900 mph sometimes like right after i zone).....but go figure on that...the ingame reports are mostly correct on alot of other things...just about 5% of its data it shows is incorrect.
I think the best thing they could do is maybe get rid of the target cap....i think a few powers are are having issues because of that target cap....like they are thinking there are more targets then there really is....
Which maybe why my accuracy is so skewed with the stats program and actual game.....
as the game statistics are reporting my accuracy on valid targets while my stats program is reporting for all hits.....ergo....i might not actualy be missing a group....i might be trying to hit or hitting things i cant see or are not supposed to be hit....in which case since they cant take damage then it looks like nothing happens.
To add weight to that possibility.....although i cannot confirm this.....i believe i actualy do miss more while inside a mission then say outside....
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Read my previous post. The problem seems to be that people are looking at Hail of Bullets and expecting it to work like a 'rain' power, where each tick of damage gets a separate to-hit roll. The way it actually works is that, when you start firing, you get a to-hit roll against each target in the area. Each target that is hit by the attack then gets the DoT applied against them -- 12 ticks of damage, with each tick of damage having an unmodifiable 50% chance to be applied. So if you miss a target in the initial burst of to-hit rolls, they will take no damage from your HoB. The power isn't a rain power, but the way it looks creates the impression that it is a rain power, so when it doesn't do damage like a rain power, it gets judged as underpowered or underperforming. What I'd like to see is the devs changing HoB on the test server so that it's a rain power, with its damage tweaked to balance it against the other nukes, and let people play with it for a week or so -- with the ability to improve the accuracy of each tick of damage, the damage per tick is going to have to go down to keep it balanced, and I don't know whether the resultant effectiveness is going to feel adequate, but the only way to know for sure is to try it.
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Originally Posted by PsychicKitty
Yep i noticed the huge missing too....kind of makes me laugh when it happens on bullet rain....i always laugh when everyone gets hit except for that one lone straggler who most likely was your target.....LMAO...or better yet you miss the entire group....(It must be the Storm Trooper DNA in my Pistol Blaster)
As I play....and probably because i tend to always miss the most when i need it to hit...i would say i feel like it has an accuracy of 50% My hero stats program reports i have an accuracy of 68% so go figure....and no i dont have my game difficulty turned up. The in game stats reports i have 85% or something like that....LMAO...in game stats are wrong on alot of stuff(like telling me i fly at 900 mph sometimes like right after i zone).....but go figure on that...the ingame reports are mostly correct on alot of other things...just about 5% of its data it shows is incorrect. |
"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
This sounds very very familiar to me, as an AR blaster. DP gets the different damage types, so it gets around the S/L issue, but still seems to be slightly underpowered, plus it has redraw. Still, just like AR, I love using it. 
An as an aside, I have to say that, coming back to CoH after two years, seeing this in a sig made me laugh:
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
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It's a 60% chance now and has been since I17 hit.
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Originally Posted by srmalloy
Each target that is hit by the attack then gets the DoT applied against them -- 12 ticks of damage, with each tick of damage having an unmodifiable 50% chance to be applied.
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Doesn't change the fact that once you hit a particular mob with the AoE, there is nothing you can do via slotting your power to affect whether the individual ticks of damage 'hit'.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
It's a 60% chance now and has been since I17 hit.
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"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
Quote:
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Originally Posted by srmalloy
Doesn't change the fact that once you hit a particular mob with the AoE, there is nothing you can do via slotting your power to affect whether the individual ticks of damage 'hit'.
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Yeah but on the flip side there's nothing the enemy can do to influence whether the strikes hit either. Even if they run away they still take damage, and because the damage is somewhat random they don't know whether they will be alive or dead when its all over. For all the enemies the power does less than average to, there are others it will do much more than average damage to, who will die from the attack but would have survived an "average" amount of damage. The randomness is not all bad.
Anyone else think the top tier DP power needs some buffing?
Two things I've noticed repeatedly while playing my DP blaster:
1. It does not consistently bring down even minions. I'd say about 50 percent of the time, you have several minions still standing with anywhere from 10 to 50% HPs remaining.
2. The accuracy is not where it needs to be. I have it two slotted with accuracy enhancements. I'd say around 25% of the time, there are several mobs standing with zero damage taken. Several times, I've completely missed ALL mobs. Pretty embarrassing when you unload from stealth and all the mobs are still unaware of your presence...
Suggestions:
Increase base accuracy significantly.
Increase damage to where it can consistently take out 100% of a minion's health.
131430 Starfare: First Contact
178774 Tales of Croatoa: A Rose By Any Other Name ( 2009 MA Best In-Canon Arc ) ( 2009 Player Awards - Best Serious Arc )