Defense and Scaling
By
Aaron123,
Posted on: 2006-01-11 16:47 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
[ QUOTE ]
I think everyone that has or played an Ice tanker just slumped down in their seat and started crying with joy.
[/ QUOTE ]
You got that right!
[ QUOTE ]
So maybe the simplest way to put it is:
FinalToHit = TotalToHit - ((TotalToHit/50)*TotalDefense)
TotalToHit being the attacker's ToHit after buffs, debuffs, purple patch, level difference, class difference, etc. etc.
TotalDefense being the target's Defense after buffs, debuffs, blah blah blah etc. etc.
Does that sound right?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, exactly that, you can make it even simplier like this:
TotalToHit * (1-Def/50)
Noticed:
[ QUOTE ]
Loc: Close to Starsman EDed grave
[/ QUOTE ]
Time to get a voodoo witch doctor to resurrect Starsman?
BillyWitchDoctor.com with one convenient location in Africa
zOMG!
This is so awesome. I can't wait for this to go through...
Exaulted -
Willow the Wisp - kinetic meleeSR brute
Aurablade - DBRegen Scrapper
Nichole Tesla - ElecKin controller
[ QUOTE ]
And on that line here is yet anoter theory!!! So far, based on a few comments by Geko on how accuracy works, I think accuracy works arround a base index just like Brawl Indexes work. This index seems to be 1 =75%. You may notice he has in ocations refered to Accuracy as 1.0 while its 75%. So this would mean a minnion has arround 0.6667.
[/ QUOTE ]
To the best of my knowledge he has never done that: what he's done is sometimes refer to Base Accuracy of the Player (which is Base To Hit = 75%) and sometimes refer to Base Accuracy of a Power (which is 1.0) with the ambiguous term "Accuracy" which can be confusing to people reading.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
TotalToHit * (1-(Def/50))
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh yeah, that's an even simpler way to do it!
Seems like such a simple thing, makes you wonder why they didn't do it ages ago (like, in the first build of the game).
[ QUOTE ]
Also, you are leting out buffs and debuffs (if i did that id have 2 variables only on my equation) and if you do that you are forgetting about one of the many issues of def, how a simple acc buff of the enemy can easily negate your def entirely.
[/ QUOTE ]
Mine explicitly leaves out tohit buffs because Statesman's OP doesn't explicitly mention them, although I do mention in my post how to extend the formula to deal with them if the devs elect to extend this idea to tohit buffs (it isn't necessary that they do: there are alternate methods for dealing with tohit buffs, and there are certain issues with using this method for dealing with them).
The one I describe explicitly scales defense to deal with Rank and Level, which is what the original post claims the update will do, and it explicitly mentions a +5 cutoff mechanism, something the OP suggests might happen.
Its unlikely that the issue of high tohit buffs would slip my mind. And the nature of the formula Tohit * (1 - Def/50) is moderately familiar to me: I discussed it at length in my Acc v Def and Elusivity threads a year ago.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
a post should be either funny, informative, a question or a combination of the three.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which was yours?
The witch doctors are waiting to see the real repercusions of this change before they attempt to resurect Starsman, after all, they dont want Darkstar to kick his rear back to the grave as soon as he stands up if this does not turns to work well.
If this is as we have been guessing, it will actually result in 1def =2res.
Example:
Against Minnion:
50acc, 25def, 0 res, 100 swings of 50pts
25 hits of 50 dmg = 1250 points of damge
50acc, 0def, 50 res, 100 swings of 50pts
50 hits of 25 dmg = 1250 points of damge
Against AV:
75acc, 25def, 0 res, 100 swings of 90pts
37.5 hits of 90pts = 3375
75acc, 0def, 50 res, 100 swings of 90pts
75 hits of 45pts = 3375
An interesting thing is, 1def = 2Res only if taken independently, look at what happens if you use 50/50 distribution of def and resist. Based on 1def = 2res that will mean 25resist and 12.5 def.
75acc, 12.5def, 25 res, 100 swings of 90pts
56.25 hits of 67.5 = 3796.875
Suddenly, they are not as strong together as they are on their own, so you cant just say the sruvivability of a character is equivalent in resistance to def*2+resist
Now, mixing high def and low resist:
75acc, 20def, 25 res, 100 swings of 90pts
45 * 81 = 3645
And finaly a low def high resist:
67.5 * 54 = 3645
So its interesting how here two oposite builds are equal but one in between both is inferior, and how these mixed sets are both inferior to pure res or pure def sets.
Therefore, going back to my point, it depends on wether or not this is what is coming and if so, how this will affect tankers that have a mixture of both types of shields. My stone tanker is not improving though, so I see no reason to even think about resurecting that one.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So maybe the simplest way to put it is:
FinalToHit = TotalToHit - ((TotalToHit/50)*TotalDefense)
TotalToHit being the attacker's ToHit after buffs, debuffs, purple patch, level difference, class difference, etc. etc.
TotalDefense being the target's Defense after buffs, debuffs, blah blah blah etc. etc.
Does that sound right?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, exactly that, you can make it even simplier like this:
TotalToHit * (1-Def/50)
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, the old saving throw mechanic. The only problem with this mechanic is that it does not allow ToHit buffs to "penetrate" defense the way psi and toxic penetrate DMG RES.
I.E. Your equation says (Base_2Hit + Net_2Hit_buff) * (1-Def/50)
I suspect it will more likley be akin to:
Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * (1-Net_DEF/50) + Net_2Hit_buff
Where Net_DEF = DEF + (DEF_Buff - DEF_Debuff)
and
Net_2Hit_Buff = (2Hit_buff-2Hit_Debuff)
[ QUOTE ]
An interesting thing is, 1def = 2Res only if taken independently, look at what happens if you use 50/50 distribution of def and resist. Based on 1def = 2res that will mean 25resist and 12.5 def.
75acc, 12.5def, 25 res, 100 swings of 90pts
56.25 hits of 67.5 = 3796.875
Suddenly, they are not as strong together as they are on their own, so you cant just say the sruvivability of a character is equivalent in resistance to def*2+resist
Now, mixing high def and low resist:
75acc, 20def, 25 res, 100 swings of 90pts
45 * 81 = 3645
And finaly a low def high resist:
67.5 * 54 = 3645
So its interesting how here two oposite builds are equal but one in between both is inferior, and how these mixed sets are both inferior to pure res or pure def sets.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is that *other* grand design issue in CoH that has been discussed off and on (the first being Accuracy and Defense): Stacking.
To wit: if 12.5% defense and 25% resistance are currently offering roughly the same protection, then adding 25% resistance to both ought to leave them roughly even. It doesn't because the 25% resistance stacks additively to the original 25% resistance, but multiplicatively with the 12.5% original defense (most people colloquially say when two defense mitigation types stack multiplicatively that in effect they "don't" stack, which most of us know refers to the same basic situation).
Its this issue that is ultimately behind the low defense numbers in SR, the very very low numbers in power pool defenses, the notion that defense sets "benefit more" from buffs than resistance sets, and the wild discrepancy between the Defense cap(s) and the various Resistance caps. It all comes down to accelerating returns from linear stacking, specifically the fact that powers can stack higher and faster than the devs want.
It isn't the *powers* that should stack additively, its their *effects* that should stack additively, meaning adding X% resistance to a set adds the same net benefit regardless of what the set originally looked like. There are ways to do that in theory.
In effect, 1 DEF = 2 RES is only true when we are not talking about stacking. Once we start talking about stacking, it isn't even strictly true anymore that 1 DEF is always equal to 1 DEF, or 1 RES is always equal to 1 RES.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, the old saving throw mechanic. The only problem with this mechanic is that it does not allow ToHit buffs to "penetrate" defense the way psi and toxic penetrate DMG RES.
I.E. Your equation says (Base_2Hit + Net_2Hit_buff) * (1-Def/50)
I suspect it will more likley be akin to:
Net_2Hit = Base_2Hit * (1-Net_DEF/50) + Net_2Hit_buff
Where Net_DEF = DEF + (DEF_Buff - DEF_Debuff)
and
Net_2Hit_Buff = (2Hit_buff-2Hit_Debuff)
[/ QUOTE ]
But why should ToHit buffs be worse on Defense than Resistance when there are sets like Ice and EA that have little to no defense to psi and toxic anyway?
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, the old saving throw mechanic. The only problem with this mechanic is that it does not allow ToHit buffs to "penetrate" defense the way psi and toxic penetrate DMG RES.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is specifically the source of my hesitation to include *all* tohit buffs into the equation, and why I thus restricted myself to rank and level buffs factored into defense only in my Defense scaling formula, which yours quickly converged to.
Strictly speaking though, this idea (and elusivity) isn't a saving throw mechanism, because it doesn't strictly take effect after an initial hit calculation. It functions more like inverse accuracy if you look at the entire tohit formula (it acts like fractional accuracy, or a sort of accuracy debuff - and I'm using the term "accuracy" in its specific usage in the tohit formula here to distinguish it from tohit).
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
But why should ToHit buffs be worse on Defense than Resistance when there are sets like Ice and EA that have little to no defense to psi and toxic anyway?
[/ QUOTE ]
The question is, should there exist "undefendable attacks" as a mechanism, given that there are unresistable (or less resisted) damage as a mechanism for resistance. In my opinion, such a mechanism has to exist in theory, or else Resistance has holes Defense does not. The issue is moderating tohit so that it is infrequent instead of pervasive (like toxic/psi damage), less devastating (DE Quartz eminators must die), and possibly have alternate counter mechanisms (psi resistance does exist, albeit less commonly).
Technically, damage typed defense has a comparable hole to the psi hole in resistance: there's no toxic typed defense. I don't mean no set has it, I mean it does not currently exist in the game engine. It doesn't exist for the devs to give out (short of a significant overhaul to the game engine the devs have previously called "daunting").
Still, I think there has to be a way to create an AV, say, that has heightened tohit that avoids being nullified by the tohit formula, just like there's a way to make an AV that uses all psi attacks (Babbage). We don't want defense-bypassing tohit buffs *constantly* but its important that we have them *occasionally*.
One caveat to all of this. One undiscussed thing not just here but in most discussions of defense in CoH is just exactly how the defense-bypassing mechanism in radiation attacks work. Depending on how they work, radiation attacks could be Defense's version of "psi." But beyond the fact that I know radiation attacks do in fact seem to hit defense more often than normal attacks, I do not have a mathematical description for radiation's "defense-bypassing" effect. It could be as simply as radiation attacks having a high inherent tohit buff. If that is the case, once again its important to preserve that sort of tohit buff's effect, because its important - to be fair - for Defense to have its "psi." It should just be uncommon.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Let us not forget the whole reason DEF doesn't scale is because the Devs put in code that grants Mobs a higher To-Hit based on Rank(Which I5 showed us was a global Variable that required no more effort to change than a couple lines in an Excel Doc) and against minus-level players as well. So this was a problem of their own making in the first place.
For balancing it... Well, it looks like there's already mechanics in the game at later levels that do that... Fortunatas, DE Quartz, and any other mobs with To-Hit buffs.
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, the old saving throw mechanic. The only problem with this mechanic is that it does not allow ToHit buffs to "penetrate" defense the way psi and toxic penetrate DMG RES.
[/ QUOTE ]
Psy and toxic do not penetrate resistances.
Its only that characters dont have resistances to the types, and truth be told, no one has any def against toxic so toxic will always ignore defense, and few sets have def against psy (some may have it in the form of melee/range/aoe def but no stright psy def)
So, under the TotalBuffedACC * (1-Def/50) formula, ACC bonuses still works as well as DMG bonuses do against resistances, they get mitigated but not ignored.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, the old saving throw mechanic. The only problem with this mechanic is that it does not allow ToHit buffs to "penetrate" defense the way psi and toxic penetrate DMG RES.
[/ QUOTE ]
Psy and toxic do not penetrate resistances.
Its only that characters dont have resistances to the types, and truth be told, no one has any def against toxic so toxic will always ignore defense, and few sets have def against psy (some may have it in the form of melee/range/aoe def but no stright psy def)
So, under the TotalBuffedACC * (1-Def/50) formula, ACC bonuses still works as well as DMG bonuses do against resistances, they get mitigated but not ignored.
[/ QUOTE ]
I understand that Psi and Toxic don't penetrate dmg res, they "bypass" DMG RES because people typically don't have dmg res against those types.
Since most people with defense have defense against ranged, melee and AE, (although some do have defense typed by damage, and others have both!), 2Hit buffs are the games method of "bypassing" DEF.
Thus, I stand by my speculation.
[ QUOTE ]
This is that *other* grand design issue in CoH that has been discussed off and on (the first being Accuracy and Defense): Stacking.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, the issue being if i dodge/parry/deflect an attack, Resistance never gets to do anything.
That means that during the attacks that are mitigated by def, resist did absolutely nothing, so in a combined enviroment it would be something like... lets see...
((def/50) * 100) + (res * (1-def/50))
Here is the proof of this formula being right:
((12.5/50) * 100) + (25 * (1-(12.5/50)) =
25 + (25 * (1 - 0.25)) =
25 + (25 * 0.75) =
25 + 18.75 =
43.75
Now lets run again the case of 12.5 def and 25res:
75acc, 12.5def, 25 res, 100 swings of 90pts
56.25 hits of 67.5 = 3796.875
And now lets run it with zero def and 43.75 resist:
75acc, 0def, 43.75res, 100 swings of 90pts
75 * 50.625 = 3796.875
And we get exactly the same!
This formula holds right now against minions, if you want to get a real equivalence of resist + def stacking you can run the formula on a build to see the equivalent resist you get agasint minnions. Id say Stone is a perfect exsample test subject for this. I think stone gets 26% def and 18.5 resist once 3 sloted (outside of granite.)
((26/50) * 100) + (18.5 * (1-(26/50)) =
(.52 * 100) + (18.5 * (1-.52)) =
52 + (18.5 * .48)
52 + 8.88
60.88
So, Stone gets the equivalent to 60.88 resistance against smash/lethal currently against minnions.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a post should be either funny, informative, a question or a combination of the three.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which was yours?
[/ QUOTE ]
Lothart, if you cant figure out mine was an "informative" post, I feel bad for your brain cell. may it live long and prosper.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a post should be either funny, informative, a question or a combination of the three.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which was yours?
[/ QUOTE ]
if you cant figure out min was an "informative" post, I feel bad for your brain cell. may it live long and prosper.
[/ QUOTE ]
The above is an example of combining informative and funny, with an added element of flaming for spice.
This post falls under commentary - a category not listed by poisonbox and therefore of no value unless accompanied by humor.
<-----Wasting your time.
[ QUOTE ]
I understand that Psi and Toxic don't penetrate dmg res, they "bypass" DMG RES because people typically don't have dmg res against those types.
Since most people with defense have defense against ranged, melee and AE, (although some do have defense typed by damage, and others have both!), 2Hit buffs are the games method of "bypassing" DEF.
[/ QUOTE ]
Only Super Reflexes and Ninjitsu relly on source damage (melee/ranged/area)
Ninjitsu is also a set with extremely low def numbers, as it rellies heavily on its utility powers like his AOE plasate.
Also altough a lot of pool powers now have range/melee def, they still are vulnerable to AOE (that being the cryptonite on that case) and are available for anyone, not a specific set, and even then are very low.
Lastly, vulnerabilities are not the realm of systems but of stats, so if range/melee/aoe are the flavor of the powerset, its up to the stats of these set to make sure one of those is lower, or to give some sort of -resist to the specific vulnerability if it was needed so that once that type of damge hits, it hits hard.
[ QUOTE ]
Some more good news...
Ice Tankers and SR Scrappers have long lamented that Defense doesn't scale with level. Because mobs higher level than a player possess an inherent to hit bonus, Defense isn't as effective over levels as Resistance.
A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.
This change is coming in I7
[/ QUOTE ]
Responses:
Is that strictly for +defense powers, or will -accuracy powers be included in this also?
Yes, To Hit Debuffs will be more effect in PvE as well.
Based on the question below...will all defense work this way? All defense to include primary or secondary powers, self and team buffs, and inspirations. Or is this change targetted to specific forms of defense?
The To Hit calculation was changed, so all Defensive powers of any type are affected by this change.
Is this change for all ATs with defense or only certain powersets?
Do defense buffs get this change?
Do Inspirations get this?
Do Power Pools?
All AT's benefit from this change.
Yes, buffs are affected.
Yes, Inspirations are affected.
Yes, power pools are affected.
This only effect PvE or PvP as well?
PvE mostly. In most ways, PvP already had effects that essentially did the same thing.
Is it safe to assume this also applies to CoV defensive sets?
Yes.
I look forward to a detailed explanation of how this will work.
Glad you asked. Basically, Level advantage in PvE, Lts, Bosses, AV's, and Monsters had To Hit bonuses. This made Defense not scale properly. We changed them so that instead of To Hit bonuses, they have Accuracy bonuses. What that means is, Defense is applied before their bonus, rather than after. Since Accuracy is a multiplier, it is multiplying a small base value than before.
For instance, an AV had a base To Hit of 75%. If a player had 25% Defense, the AV would have had a 50% chance to hit. Under the new system, the AV's has a base 50% chance to hit. The Defense is applied, reducing his To Hit to 25%. The Accuracy is then applied, giving a final To Hit of 37.5% -- a 12.5% improvement over the old system.
does this mean Mobs(bosses) that use defense will be more difficult?
Nope! The above change only applied to Mobs.
So when will you be announcing that all +DEF powers have been cut in half?
We've only reduced one power, since it was a kluge fix to the problem that is no longer necessary. Essentially, Super Reflexes power sets Defense will be the same in effectiveness at Melee, Ranged and AoE ranges. Currently, SR has a bonus vs AoE attacks that was added to help them against tougher opponents with higher Base To Hit values.
Have you guys really play tested this?
It's been running internally for all tests since October.
There's a way to do that and still be perfectly fair to defense and resistance sets. Just give higher level villains accuracy increases instead of tohit buffs. Higher level foes would now hit more often, but in a proportional manner. Problem solved.
Someone give Arcanaville a cigar!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a post should be either funny, informative, a question or a combination of the three.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which was yours?
[/ QUOTE ]
if you cant figure out min was an "informative" post, I feel bad for your brain cell. may it live long and prosper.
[/ QUOTE ]
The above is an example of combining informative and funny, with an added element of flaming for spice.
This post falls under commentary - a category not listed by poisonbox and therefore of no value unless accompanied by humor.
<-----Wasting your time.
[/ QUOTE ]
Pilcrow, you should know that I didnt add the sub-categories to my list of post types because most of the people here cant comprehend the lvl of detail... Lothart has pointed that out so nicely.
And this is why Castle rocks!
Heart.Breaker, Pinnacle
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done."
-George Carlin
[ QUOTE ]
Some more good news...
Ice Tankers and SR Scrappers have long lamented that Defense doesn't scale with level. Because mobs higher level than a player possess an inherent to hit bonus, Defense isn't as effective over levels as Resistance.
A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.
This change is coming in I7
[/ QUOTE ]
Bah.. bah...bah....bah....bah...
::thud::