Defense and Scaling
By
Aaron123,
Posted on: 2006-01-11 16:47 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Since the change appears to be in how Accuracy is calculated, with level adjustments being applied last, will the same be true for players trying to hit enemies?
As I understand it, instead of enemies (effectively) having a To Hit Buff from relative level, they now get a multiplier to their final accuracy. Did enemies recieve a Defense Buff for being higher level before, and if so, do they now recieve a multiplier on the final accuracy instead of the (effective) Defense Buff?
Not 100% sure on the numbers, but what I'm asking is:
Old Chance to hit=(1+Accuracy Enhancements)*((Base To-Hit*Level Adjustment) - Defense +(To Hit Buff-Debuff))
Is that changed to:
New chance to hit=(1+Accuracy Enhancements)*Level Adjustment*(Base To Hit - Defense + (To Hit Buff-Debuff))
Crunching some numbers:
Base to Hit, even level, nothing else: 75%
Base to hit, +1 level, nothing else: 68% (could be 67.5% I think)
Old level adjustment: 0.90
New level adjustment: Same.
With a +20% To Hit Buff
Old accuracy vs. even: 95%
New accuracy vs. Even: 95%
Old accuracy vs. +1: 87.5%
New accuracy vs. +1: 85.5%
That would mean a To Hit Buff would be not as effective as before, if what I'm thinking is true actually is true.
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I look forward to a detailed explanation of how this will work.
Glad you asked. Basically, Level advantage in PvE, Lts, Bosses, AV's, and Monsters had To Hit bonuses. This made Defense not scale properly. We changed them so that instead of To Hit bonuses, they have Accuracy bonuses. What that means is, Defense is applied before their bonus, rather than after. Since Accuracy is a multiplier, it is multiplying a small base value than before.
For instance, an AV had a base To Hit of 75%. If a player had 25% Defense, the AV would have had a 50% chance to hit. Under the new system, the AV's has a base 50% chance to hit. The Defense is applied, reducing his To Hit to 25%. The Accuracy is then applied, giving a final To Hit of 37.5% -- a 12.5% improvement over the old system.
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So what you are saying is that we now will floor (or near-floor) *any* mob's accuracy with two lucks, one luck and 3 slotted SR/Ice/Ninjitsu/Bubbles, or any combination that works out to a 50% bonus.
I think this is going to finally show you guys the flaw in the tohit formula, with respect to Acc bonuses vs Def bonuses. Maybe you will get how we feel about a 3 Acc slotted attack only having a 10% (or is it 5%? When is the floor applied?) chance to hit a bubbled Rikti Drone.
I'm both excited and worried about how you will react to this realization.
P.S. You indeed rock, Castle. Thanks for the detailed info.
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But its really focused accuracy that is the real killer, since its tohit buff is lower, but continuous, and its base is also high enough that a reduction in slotting power to "just as strong as defense" still makes it pretty darned good against defense sets.
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This is exactly what I'm talking about. I in no way form or manner want to see this touched (edit: in PvE). It is the only power in the game left besides Rage that allows you to stop slotting Accuracy in your powers. And you pay for it by facing a staggering endurance burn and taking a EPP that really doesn't offer a lot of interesting powers. (Conserve Power is pretty great, but not everyone needs it, and there are other more interesting pools out there, IMO).
There's no real benefit to ACC/toHit overkill in PvP. The purple patch intervenes in other ways, even if you can hit +5 and +6 foes, the heavily attenuated effects of your powers, and the massive damage they deal back, makes it a bad idea. So there's no real benefit to stacking powers and Accuracy enhancements. Getting a power like FA or Rage is enough.
Enter PvP and the scene changes. Now you regularly face people who have DEF as their mitigation. And no you get real benefit from stacking things that no one would stack in PvE.
I REALLY don't like the idea that FA could be gutted from its present utility in PvE to make PvP fair. Because while I want PvP to be fair for the people that do it, I don't partake of it enough to want to pay for that with a loss of something I like in PvE.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Unless they also heavily reduced the base values of the actual tohit buffs in PvP, and didn't say so, switching tohit buffs from A to B balances then against defense enhancements, which they technically should be, but doesn't really do much to powers like Aim or Build Up, which each possess (as far as I know) higher base tohit buffage than SR possesses total defense. Most people I know don't even *slot* Aim with tohit buff enhancements, making a reduction in them ineffective on its own in taming that power.
But its really focused accuracy that is the real killer, since its tohit buff is lower, but continuous, and its base is also high enough that a reduction in slotting power to "just as strong as defense" still makes it pretty darned good against defense sets.
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Agreed. So now to put the issue completely to rest, all of the accuracy buffing powers (aim, buildup, focused accuracy,etc) all need to have their base values brought into line with what the average defense power can push out.
I think 12.5% base buff for Aim and FA, and a 5% buff from Buildup sounds fair. Or even double those values for the non-constant buffs since their durations are so short.
(I know, I'm slightly exagerating how bad they need to be nerfed. Slightly.)
Be well, people of CoH.
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The To Hit calculation was changed
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since we'd only just learned the formula, can we get the new one?
Yes! I'm NORMAL! What are you looking at freak!?
Will the new AV rules apply to missions already 'on one's plate'? I have a mission that I tried to solo, only to run into the Clockwork King. I have yet to get that mission off my roster. So, when these new rules kick in and I go back to that mission and try to solo (I'm set at rugged) can I assume I don't have to fight the King again...?
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Castle:
I'm curious. Why the complicated math (well, relatively)? Wouldn't it be more effective to get away from the subtractive design of DEF and move to something multiplicative (terminology shamelessly stolen from FreelanceWizard)?
The numbers on DEF powers would have to be tweaked, but you'd have -perfect- equivalence in scalability with RES sets at -all- levels.
Ex: 50% DEF would cut a target's ACC in half, whatever that ACC was to begin with. So then, say, a white minion would have a 25% chance to hit (50% base ACC x 50%). Then, no matter -what- the mob's base accuracy, 50% DEF would mean you take (on average) half the damage you would have with no DEF, exactly the same as 50% RES means you take half the damage you would with no RES.
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The system he described does this already, for ALL level and rank ranges. They simply seem to have chosen it not to apply for +6s and up, because theoricaly, if you managed to tank an even minnion, you may also be able to tank a +50 until you ran out of luck.
Now, it does is a bit unintuitive for the player that 25% def means 50% def, but truth is, the UI does not shows this def anyways. If it ever did, they can make the UI display Def*2 as the active Def value.
Also, if he changed the whole thing the devs would have to find every single power that grants def or acc debufs and buffs and change them all over, too big of a change.
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I think 12.5% base buff for Aim and FA, and a 5% buff from Buildup sounds fair. Or even double those values for the non-constant buffs since their durations are so short.
(I know, I'm slightly exagerating how bad they need to be nerfed. Slightly.)
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Those values are ludicrously low.
5% for Build Up?
Do you know what Tactics is on a non-Controller, non-Defender (CoH ATs only)? It's around 7%. And, unenhanced, I can tell you, it's barely noticeable in today's world, fighting mobs with no +DEF powers. And that's mixing it with one SO accuracy. You do start to notice it with 2-3 SO toHitBuffs in it, but it's still not incredible.
If you want those values slashed in PvP only, I have zero problem with that. But I would have heavy disgust for a change like that in PvE. I don't want to have to slot my damn Aim for toHit just to get a useful buff out of it in PvE.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Good show, ol' chap! Good show I say! Thanks to you and all for listening!
Any chance we'll be able to either get a free respect or the ability to earn another one (having burned through the ones I'm eligible for already) to reallocate slots now that defenses are worth taking?
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Some more good news...
Ice Tankers and SR Scrappers have long lamented that Defense doesn't scale with level. Because mobs higher level than a player possess an inherent to hit bonus, Defense isn't as effective over levels as Resistance.
A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.
This change is coming in I7
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I think 12.5% base buff for Aim and FA, and a 5% buff from Buildup sounds fair. Or even double those values for the non-constant buffs since their durations are so short.
(I know, I'm slightly exagerating how bad they need to be nerfed. Slightly.)
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Those values are ludicrously low.
5% for Build Up?
Do you know what Tactics is on a non-Controller, non-Defender (CoH ATs only)? It's around 7%. And, unenhanced, I can tell you, it's barely noticeable in today's world, fighting mobs with no +DEF powers. And that's mixing it with one SO accuracy. You do start to notice it with 2-3 SO toHitBuffs in it, but it's still not incredible.
If you want those values slashed in PvP only, I have zero problem with that. But I would have heavy disgust for a change like that in PvE. I don't want to have to slot my damn Aim for toHit just to get a useful buff out of it in PvE.
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I agree with you, but only to a point. If the ToHit buffing powers are reduced, something else will need to make up foir the reduction. Lowered end cost on FA and Tactics, as an example.
I also wish to see Lucks reduced to be "equal" to Sturdies. At their current values, with this change coming down the pipeline, they are grossly overpowered. UNLESS they are only compared to the grossly overpowered ToHit Buff base values of FA, Aim and Buildup.
Bring 'em all down, is my wish.
Be well, people of CoH.
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So what you are saying is that we now will floor (or near-floor) *any* mob's accuracy with two lucks, one luck and 3 slotted SR/Ice/Ninjitsu/Bubbles, or any combination that works out to a 50% bonus.
I think this is going to finally show you guys the flaw in the tohit formula,
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What it may actually show is that def inspirations are overpowered and lead them to nerf them.
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Maybe you will get how we feel about a 3 Acc slotted attack only having a 10% (or is it 5%? When is the floor applied?) chance to hit a bubbled Rikti Drone.
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Remember he clearely stated this only applies to players being hit, not players hiting NPCs.
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There's a way to do that and still be perfectly fair to defense and resistance sets. Just give higher level villains accuracy increases instead of tohit buffs. Higher level foes would now hit more often, but in a proportional manner. Problem solved.
Someone give Arcanaville a cigar!
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!
Now, since my ego simply has to know: did one of my suggestions finally get stuck on someone's shoe and then tracked into the right cubicle, or was this always on the boards as a potential solution to the problem that simply required sufficient coding time to engineer?
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Does it matter?
Still. I've some belief that your Guide to Defense that demonstrated the problem so clearly had no small effect on this change.
PS - when you gonna update that guide?
PPS - If I understand this corretnly, it seems to leave ToHit Buffs as the achillies heel to defense.
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But its really focused accuracy that is the real killer, since its tohit buff is lower, but continuous, and its base is also high enough that a reduction in slotting power to "just as strong as defense" still makes it pretty darned good against defense sets.
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This is exactly what I'm talking about. I in no way form or manner want to see this touched (edit: in PvE).
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Again, this change wont affect how players hit NPCs.
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I look forward to a detailed explanation of how this will work.
Glad you asked. Basically, Level advantage in PvE, Lts, Bosses, AV's, and Monsters had To Hit bonuses. This made Defense not scale properly. We changed them so that instead of To Hit bonuses, they have Accuracy bonuses. What that means is, Defense is applied before their bonus, rather than after. Since Accuracy is a multiplier, it is multiplying a small base value than before.
For instance, an AV had a base To Hit of 75%. If a player had 25% Defense, the AV would have had a 50% chance to hit. Under the new system, the AV's has a base 50% chance to hit. The Defense is applied, reducing his To Hit to 25%. The Accuracy is then applied, giving a final To Hit of 37.5% -- a 12.5% improvement over the old system.
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So what you are saying is that we now will floor (or near-floor) *any* mob's accuracy with two lucks, one luck and 3 slotted SR/Ice/Ninjitsu/Bubbles, or any combination that works out to a 50% bonus.
I think this is going to finally show you guys the flaw in the tohit formula, with respect to Acc bonuses vs Def bonuses. Maybe you will get how we feel about a 3 Acc slotted attack only having a 10% (or is it 5%? When is the floor applied?) chance to hit a bubbled Rikti Drone.
I'm both excited and worried about how you will react to this realization.
P.S. You indeed rock, Castle. Thanks for the detailed info.
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It depends on what you mean by "nearly floored." An interesting consequence of this type of adjustment - a specific one I actually endorse - is that you can no longer floor AVs.
What???
Its a consequence of how accuracy buffs work. Unless they made other unannounced changes, there's *two* floorings that take place in the tohit calculation:
(BaseAccuracy + AccuracyBuffs) * (BaseToHit - Defense)
leaving out some terms, this is floored twice:
Floor[5%, (BaseAccuracy + AccuracyBuffs) * Floor[5%, (BaseToHit - Defense) ] ]
Since the term (BaseToHit - Defense) can never be lower than 5%, that also means an AV, with a 50% accuracy buff, can never be driven lower than
(1 + 0.5) * (0.05) = 0.075 = 7.5%.
Basically, an AV will hit you 50% more often than a minion hits you, always (short of the tohit ceiling), even if you have enough defense to floor them both.
It is *not* exactly true that 50% defense "floors" everything. Yes, it does, but on the other hand, the actual "floor" is automatically raised with accuracy buffs. If accuracy buffs get massively out of hand, this could be a problem (and I'm sure right now a lot of people are reaching to type a response saying it *is* a problem now) but it seems to be small price to pay for tohit scaling to be moderated.
Is it fair? Depends on your definition of "fair." Without this double-flooring effect, SR scrappers with bubbles would hard floor everything (including AVs) which in essence would mean they could completely dodge the entire accuracy buff altogether, while non-defensive sets could not.
Its a non-issue outside of heavy buffing (or inspiration usage) so its not a large balance issue. Its something to look at over time, though.
With respect, its tohit buffs that expose the flaw in the tohit calculations: by leveraging accuracy bonuses, the devs have shifted rank and level buffs to the part of the calculation that actually works *correctly* (in my opinion, of course). It sucks if something that is really hard to hit doesn't suddenly get easy to hit if you 3-slot with accuracy, but for defense to be working correctly, nothing that is easy to do should make good defense into bad defense. There's no way to slot an attack to make good resistance into bad resistance, for example.
If PvE targets get *too* annoying to hit, the solution is to make them have a little less defense: PvE villains don't complain about getting hit too often.
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Agreed. So now to put the issue completely to rest, all of the accuracy buffing powers (aim, buildup, focused accuracy,etc) all need to have their base values brought into line with what the average defense power can push out.
I think 12.5% base buff for Aim and FA, and a 5% buff from Buildup sounds fair. Or even double those values for the non-constant buffs since their durations are so short.
(I know, I'm slightly exagerating how bad they need to be nerfed. Slightly.)
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Those values are way too low and I play an energy aura brute. Its the use of buildup PLUS aim that greatly hurts +def sets in PvP. Its this combination of augmented damage and acc, along with toggle dropping that makes melee classes vulnerable to ONE particular playstyle from ONE AT (the blapper). d.
What I'd rather see is eliminate or dramatically decrease the secondary effect of each buff.
For instance, buildup should be 100% dmg boost and no +acc. If this seems to harsh for sets with only buildup (melee), then make the +acc component a relatively low number, 16% or so...equal to a DO in boost. The same holds true for Aim. Currently as it stands, both powers get the benefit of at least 50% secondary boost, which under ED is a lot.
I'm wondering if this is going to lead to an eventual migration of all toHit type buffs to be Acc multipliers instead. That way they would affect Def and Res types, on average, in exactly the same way...
Giving us something like
Avg %Dam = (Acc buffs)*(0.5-Defbuffs+Defdebuffs)*(1-RESbuffs+RESdebuffs)
Of course doing this would require a new DEF cap similar to the RES cap.
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PS - when you gonna update that guide?
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Probably as soon as the I7 changes to defense appear to be set in stone and it doesn't look like any others are coming (i.e. I'm still wondering if something else related specifically to tohit buffs is also in I7; given how significant a change this is to addressing defense concerns, they might be trying for a clean sweep of them).
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I agree with you, but only to a point. If the ToHit buffing powers are reduced, something else will need to make up foir the reduction. Lowered end cost on FA and Tactics, as an example.
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The thing is, I don't care about the costs. The costs are currently balanced against the (PvE) benefit these powers provide.
If their cost is slashed but their benefit is too, I consider them to cease to be useful. This has already happened, in effect, with Targetting drone. It went from something you could use in place of slotting accuracy in your powers to something that, honestly, you now seem to need to combine with accuracy slotting. All of which goes a huge distance in nullifying what was, for many players, the primary attraction of the entire Devices secondary (at least once Smoke Grenade was fixed). What would be the point in PvE of Focused accuracy in the world you propose? Self Tactics for melee characters? I'm not enthused by that idea. With their original values, these powers have a valid and design purpose that is muddied by the fact that it makes sense to do things in PvP that don't make sense in PvE.
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I also wish to see Lucks reduced to be "equal" to Sturdies. At their current values, with this change coming down the pipeline, they are grossly overpowered. UNLESS they are only compared to the grossly overpowered ToHit Buff base values of FA, Aim and Buildup.
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No real argument here, other than, again, the tie in with the buffs.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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But its really focused accuracy that is the real killer, since its tohit buff is lower, but continuous, and its base is also high enough that a reduction in slotting power to "just as strong as defense" still makes it pretty darned good against defense sets.
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This is exactly what I'm talking about. I in no way form or manner want to see this touched (edit: in PvE).
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Again, this change wont affect how players hit NPCs.
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If they nerf our toHitBuffs it will. That's what I'm referring to.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
It should probably be noted that this change will alter the to-hit floors that are attainable for various villain classes.
The reason for this is that accuracy multipliers are applied after the to-hit calculations are performed and the minimum of 5% is applied.
As such, if all bosses have 50% accuracy (enough to bring their 50% to-hit up to 75%)... then the absolute minimum their to-hit value would be able to be reduced to is 7.5% as opposed to the current 5%.
Not that this sort of an alteration is a big deal, but I just thought it was important to mention for the interest of full disclosure... unless of course there is something else going on in the to-hit calculations that I am unaware of.
EDIT - Upon reading parts of the thread I did not skim through it seems as though Arcana beat me to it lol... good job 
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So now to put the issue completely to rest, all of the accuracy buffing powers (aim, buildup, focused accuracy,etc) all need to have their base values brought into line with what the average defense power can push out.
I think 12.5% base buff for Aim and FA, and a 5% buff from Buildup sounds fair. Or even double those values for the non-constant buffs since their durations are so short.
(I know, I'm slightly exagerating how bad they need to be nerfed. Slightly.)
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That would make the to-hit bonus from these powers damn-near unnoticable in PvE, just because they are overpowered in PvP.
I'm also not remotely surprised that it's being suggested.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
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Maybe you will get how we feel about a 3 Acc slotted attack only having a 10% (or is it 5%? When is the floor applied?) chance to hit a bubbled Rikti Drone.
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Remember he clearely stated this only applies to players being hit, not players hiting NPCs.
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This is how it has always worked for players hitting NPCs when you are using accuracy enhancements and not tohit buffs. I'm not referring to the proposed change.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
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So when will you be announcing that all +DEF powers have been cut in half?
We've only reduced one power, since it was a kluge fix to the problem that is no longer necessary. Essentially, Super Reflexes power sets Defense will be the same in effectiveness at Melee, Ranged and AoE ranges. Currently, SR has a bonus vs AoE attacks that was added to help them against tougher opponents with higher Base To Hit values.
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Ummmm, while you're mucking about with SR...
Can you consolidate the 6 +DEF powers in this set down to 5 or 4 and put some more ultility powers in there. It would really balance SR with other sets since they all either have more utility powers or more variety in their protection.
SR = 6 +DEF/-ACC, 1 MEZ Protection, 1 Utility, 1 Level 38 Monster
DA = 2 DMG RES, 2 +DEF/-ACC, 1 heal, 1 MEZ Protection, 3 utility
Inv = 4 DMG RES, 1 DEF, 1 MEZ, 1 heal, 1 utility, 1 level 38 Monster
Regen = 4 Heal, 1 Resist, 1 Mez, 2 utility, 1 level 38 Monster
Energy = 3 DEF, 1 Mez, 1 Resist, 3 utility, 1 level 38 Monster
Ninja = 3 DEF, 1 Resist/heal, 3 utility, 1 Mez, 1 level 38 Monster
Every set has more variety in the defense they offer and uses fewer powers to get their central protection than SR. SR deserves teh same.
Please combine some of the passives and give us a new power or two, even ones stolen from other sets (AIM, Power Boost, or self-buff versions of Speed Boost, Accel Metab, RA etc.). Just give us a bit more variety, please.
<-------Greedy
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I would like to see anything done here done with extremely careful consideration to the difference in PvE and PvP.
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100% agreed.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)