Defense and Scaling
By
Aaron123,
Posted on: 2006-01-11 16:47 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
[ QUOTE ]
There's a way to do that and still be perfectly fair to defense and resistance sets. Just give higher level villains accuracy increases instead of tohit buffs. Higher level foes would now hit more often, but in a proportional manner. Problem solved.
Someone give Arcanaville a cigar!
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for all the insight Castle, you rock!
Just a note, I've been a very strong advocate of Arcanaville's solutions for Accuracy, Defense and ToHit calculations for quite a long time now. IMHO, It would be great to adopt his solutions for those calculations completely. As this is a step in the right direction, I applaud it! But still, I look forward to the day where PvP ToHitBuffs like Focused Accuracy don't completely overwhelm things like Accuracy Debuffs and Defense Sets. Baby steps are better than no steps at all. 
Arcanaville's solutions would be far more intuitive, and IMHO, far more fair. They would also make balancing powers easier, as the always-hit and always-miss unbalanced scenarios would be virtually non-existant.
[ QUOTE ]
Glad you asked. Basically, Level advantage in PvE, Lts, Bosses, AV's, and Monsters had To Hit bonuses. This made Defense not scale properly. We changed them so that instead of To Hit bonuses, they have Accuracy bonuses. What that means is, Defense is applied before their bonus, rather than after. Since Accuracy is a multiplier, it is multiplying a small base value than before.
For instance, an AV had a base To Hit of 75%. If a player had 25% Defense, the AV would have had a 50% chance to hit. Under the new system, the AV's has a base 50% chance to hit. The Defense is applied, reducing his To Hit to 25%. The Accuracy is then applied, giving a final To Hit of 37.5% -- a 12.5% improvement over the old system.
[/ QUOTE ]
So, basically, you subtract defense first to the "base" accuracy and then modify it by rank and difficulty. Not exactly as good as I was hoping, but possibly workable.
So let's see how minions work out +3 or +4. We'll assume that 25% DEF is nearly equivilant to 50% damage reduction.
(50% - 25%)* 1.40 = 35% Accuracy (mitigating 65% of damage incoming which is at 140%.) 49% damage.
(50% - 0%)* 1.40% = 70% Accuracy (mitigating 30% damage incoming which is at 140%, but resisted by 50% damage resistance. So a total of 65% damage is fully defended and resisted against.) 49% damage (roughly.)
I have to say, hot-diggity-dog! That's much better than my gut feeling said it would be. As long as the purple patch bumps accuracy and damage equally, minions are "fair" to DEF and RES.
Now for AVs! (trepidation!)
((50% -25%) *1.5) *1.4 = 52.5% (or mitigating 47.5% damage of an AV's 140% damage. Painful, but still a radical improvement onl 20% mitigation from before!) 73.5% (roughly)
((50% -0%) *1.5) *1.4 = 105% (capped at 95%) (So you are taking 95% of 140% AV damage, 133%, but resisting 50% of that. So you are only taking 66.5%.) So 66.5% (roughly).
Amazingly enough, in the same ballpark. I am *very* impressed! The 5% miss chance helps Resistance just a little bit.
Still here, even after all this time!
[ QUOTE ]
Please combine some of the passives and give us a new power or two, even ones stolen from other sets (AIM, Power Boost, or self-buff versions of Speed Boost, Accel Metab, RA etc.).
[/ QUOTE ]
Puh-puh-puh-puh-power boost?
Why yes, I'll take power boost. 
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Technically, Pilcrow, although my greed is as great as yours concerning SR:
We have:
3Def (With Def Debuff Res, Heightened Perception and other goodies)
3Def + Scaling Dam-Res
1 Mez Res
1 Utility (With several buffs rolled into it)
And the Monster that is Elude
Even as greedy as I am.... oh heck with it.. here's my greed:
Base values for passives/toggles should be 7.5%/15%
New power availability order should be:
FF/FS/Dodge/PB/Agile/Quickness/Evasion/Lucky/Elude
When Elude is active, all damage done has the words Dead Sexy flying up with the damage numbers like Scourge does.
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Please combine some of the passives and give us a new power or two, even ones stolen from other sets (AIM, Power Boost, or self-buff versions of Speed Boost, Accel Metab, RA etc.).
[/ QUOTE ]
Puh-puh-puh-puh-power boost?
Why yes, I'll take power boost.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just the power boosting part. You have elude when you want to up your defense that much.
[ QUOTE ]
Technically, Pilcrow, although my greed is as great as yours concerning SR:
We have:
3Def (With Def Debuff Res, Heightened Perception and other goodies)
3Def + Scaling Dam-Res
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, VERY situational DMG RES. It's like calling reconstructions a resist power. Technically true, but...not really.
[ QUOTE ]
Even as greedy as I am.... oh heck with it.. here's my greed:
Base values for passives/toggles should be 7.5%/15%
New power availability order should be:
FF/FS/Dodge/PB/Agile/Quickness/Evasion/Lucky/Elude
When Elude is active, all damage done has the words Dead Sexy flying up with the damage numbers like Scourge does.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd be happy if they gave 1/2 the AE defense in evasion to dodge and the other haf to agile, then gave us a utility power where lucky is.
But I'd love to see more of my SR's DEF in the passives, too.
[ QUOTE ]
A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.
[/ QUOTE ]
The devs get 20 points for listening to the playerbase, 10 points for giving a boost to SR Scrappers, and 10 points for the same to Ice Tanks.
...however, they get -50 points for making yet *another* fundamental alternation to their game engine without warning.
Character index
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.
[/ QUOTE ]
The devs get 20 points for listening to the playerbase, 10 points for giving a boost to SR Scrappers, and 10 points for the same to Ice Tanks.
...however, they get -50 points for making yet *another* fundamental alternation to their game engine without warning.
[/ QUOTE ]
That seems sort of strange.
One, they didn't change the engine at all. They just moved some values around in the existing engine. Maybe that's an overly technical point.
Two, and more importantly, would you rather they left something that was desperately broken alone? That part confuses me badly. I applaud a sweeping change when it's needed.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.
[/ QUOTE ]
The devs get 20 points for listening to the playerbase, 10 points for giving a boost to SR Scrappers, and 10 points for the same to Ice Tanks.
...however, they get -50 points for making yet *another* fundamental alternation to their game engine without warning.
[/ QUOTE ]
Um, WTH? This *is* the warning. From best estimates, i7 (which this will be part of) is over a month away.
Sheesh, some people. You'd think the world was ending because some didn't give you ten dollars for nothing.
Still here, even after all this time!
[ QUOTE ]
...however, they get -50 points for making yet *another* fundamental alternation to their game engine without warning.
[/ QUOTE ]
ummmmm...the change isn't even on test yet. It's coming in with I-7. Two months warning isn't enough for you?
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.
[/ QUOTE ]
The devs get 20 points for listening to the playerbase, 10 points for giving a boost to SR Scrappers, and 10 points for the same to Ice Tanks.
...however, they get -50 points for making yet *another* fundamental alternation to their game engine without warning.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Right now, were working on some possible solutions for the fact that defense doesnt scale with level (this affects Ice, Stone and Invulnerability). Thats an imbalance that were looking at. - Statesman
[/ QUOTE ]
+50 back to the devs since they DID warn us!
40 point to the devs! W00t!
Double Post!
[ QUOTE ]
Um, WTH? This *is* the warning. From best estimates, i7 (which this will be part of) is over a month away.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, and what Futurias said.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.
[/ QUOTE ]
The devs get 20 points for listening to the playerbase, 10 points for giving a boost to SR Scrappers, and 10 points for the same to Ice Tanks.
...however, they get -50 points for making yet *another* fundamental alternation to their game engine without warning.
[/ QUOTE ]
-10 points for not mentioning force field defenders
-7.5 additional points for not mentioning force field controllers.
-20 points to anyone not getting the controller joke.
-10 points for posting a message stating they gave no warning in the thread pre-announcing the change
+15 points for humorous unintentional irony, satisfying one of the three requirements placed on posts in this thread (funny, informative, questioning).
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
For those having trouble keeping score:
Devs + 40
Silver Gale -32.5
[ QUOTE ]
So let's see how minions work out +3 or +4. We'll assume that 25% DEF is nearly equivilant to 50% damage reduction.
(50% - 25%)* 1.40 = 35% Accuracy (mitigating 65% of damage incoming which is at 140%.) 49% damage.
(50% - 0%)* 1.40% = 70% Accuracy (mitigating 30% damage incoming which is at 140%, but resisted by 50% damage resistance. So a total of 65% damage is fully defended and resisted against.) 49% damage (roughly.)
[/ QUOTE ]
As it stands right now, today...
(50%* 1.40) - 25% = 52.5% Accuracy (mitigating 47.5% of damage incoming which is at 140%.) 73.5% damage
(50%* 1.40%) - 0% = 70% Accuracy (mitigating 30% damage incoming which is at 140%, but resisted by 50% damage resistance. So a total of 65% damage is fully defended and resisted against.) 49% damage (roughly.)
[ QUOTE ]
Now for AVs! (trepidation!)
((50% -25%) *1.5) *1.4 = 52.5% (or mitigating 47.5% damage of an AV's 140% damage. Painful, but still a radical improvement onl 20% mitigation from before!) 73.5% (roughly)
((50% -0%) *1.5) *1.4 = 105% (capped at 95%) (So you are taking 95% of 140% AV damage, 133%, but resisting 50% of that. So you are only taking 66.5%.) So 66.5% (roughly).
Amazingly enough, in the same ballpark. I am *very* impressed! The 5% miss chance helps Resistance just a little bit.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, as of today...
((50%*1.5) *1.4)-25% =78.75% (mitigating 21.25% damage of an AV's 140% damage!)110.25% (roughly)
((50%*1.5) *1.4) -0% = 105% (capped at 95%) (So you are taking 95% of 140% AV damage, 133%, but resisting 50% of that. So you are only taking 66.5%.) So 66.5% (roughly).
From 110.25% AV damage to 73.5%? O U C H !!! 
That is a HUGE boost for defence sets! 
[ QUOTE ]
From 110.25% AV damage to 73.5%?
O U C H !!!
That is a HUGE boost for defence sets!
[/ QUOTE ]
You have to remember, though, that they are coming from a distinct disadvantage. For ages and ages, the average mitigation of DEF vs DR has scaled down with foe rank and level. So putting them back in line requires a pretty significant boost.
Note I say this from the perspective of someone with virtually no DEF based characters. And there's a reason for that. The ones I played made the problems clear.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Puh-puh-puh-puh-power boost?
Why yes, I'll take power boost.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just the power boosting part. You have elude when you want to up your defense that much.
[/ QUOTE ]
Powerboost wouldn't do much for a SR scrapper as it stands. It improves the secondary effects of powers, and defense is a primary power in the SR set. Unless this has changed at some point.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This means that every enemy always had a base of 50% plus a % buff instead of a fixed buff? Or was it changed to be this way with the new system?
[/ QUOTE ]
That's not exactly true, but for all practical purposes, it is close enough. They had a higher Base To Hit value, which is the same as having a To Hit buff that increased their To Hit to that point.
[/ QUOTE ]
In other words... Defense Builds were being Double Penalized against +1, +2, +3 Bosses, LT's, and AV/Monsters(Just like a couple Graphs I made at the time suggested) ...especially all the frikkin downtrodden wretches sitting in cold-storage which we refer to as "ForceField Defenders".
My only question is... what the hell took so long?
[ QUOTE ]
Powerboost wouldn't do much for a SR scrapper as it stands. It improves the secondary effects of powers, and defense is a primary power in the SR set.
[/ QUOTE ]
Tell that to a DM/SR
[ QUOTE ]
Tell that to a DM/SR
[/ QUOTE ]
It would help the DM part, but would do nothing for the SR part, which is what I said.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Powerboost wouldn't do much for a SR scrapper as it stands. It improves the secondary effects of powers, and defense is a primary power in the SR set.
[/ QUOTE ]
Tell that to a DM/SR
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually I don't think the sword guys would complain much either. But yeah, that would be really evil on DM.
<.<
>.>
>.<
\_/
On SR it would have the very odd effect of boosting the debuff resistance and the DR gained when hit.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
they get -50 points for making yet *another* fundamental alternation to their game engine without warning.
[/ QUOTE ]
Technically, this thread is the warning, since none of this is coming until I7.
can we get a warning about the claws changes?
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So what you are saying is that we now will floor (or near-floor) *any* mob's accuracy with two lucks, one luck and 3 slotted SR/Ice/Ninjitsu/Bubbles, or any combination that works out to a 50% bonus.
[/ QUOTE ]
It depends on what you mean by "nearly floored."
[/ QUOTE ]
7.5% definitely qualifies as "nearly floored" in my mind. It's a 90% reduction in damage over time, which is the same reduction you have from flooring an even con minion. And you get this for 60 seconds from two 50 influence inspirations. To get that same amount of damage reduction from Sturdies, you have to eat 18 of them.
I think Lucks are going to be hit REAL hard soon after this change.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)