Defense and Scaling
By
Aaron123,
Posted on: 2006-01-11 16:47 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I'm not too pleased about the idea of them buffing the bosses accuracy in a way that will decrease for the defense set, but the other majority of sets will only be getting hit by bossess more often now.
Just what we need, more hits without the defense to withstand it.
Bummer
Member of Team Awesome���
Justice Server
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Puh-puh-puh-puh-power boost?
Why yes, I'll take power boost. 
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Just the power boosting part. You have elude when you want to up your defense that much. 
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Powerboost wouldn't do much for a SR scrapper as it stands. It improves the secondary effects of powers, and defense is a primary power in the SR set. Unless this has changed at some point.
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A common misconception amplified by the poor wording of the description for power boost. Power boost does not boost secondary effects of powers because there is no such thing as "secondary" effects. There are no "primary" effects. There are only "effects." No power, effect, villain, buff, debuff, or situation distinguishes between what anyone things the "primary" effect of a power is, and what a "secondary" effect might be.
Power boost boosts all of the following effects on any power triggered or running while it is active:
(credit Pulsewave for the list)
Disorient, sleep, confuse, fear, immobilize, and hold duration
Knockback/up distance
Repel stregth
Run, fly speed
Defense, Accuracy (tohit) Buffs
Heal
Endurance Drain/Modification
This is true regardless of what power has the effect, or whether the power is a primary, secondary, or power pool power. For example, power boost boosts the speed and defense of hover; neither is primary or secondary. It boosts the heal in aid self and aid other.
They really need to change the description of power boost, or award a badge after 100 explanations.
The only time the devs came remotely close to honoring any notion of "primary" and "secondary" (when it comes to effects) was when they were looking at stealth defense suppression, and even there it was not consistent.
Power boost would, if it was consistent, boost the defense of SR toggles. It already boosts the defense of all other toggle defenses that anyone who has power boost has.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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but the other majority of sets will only be getting hit by bossess more often now.
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No they won't. The base to hit chance that acctually counts won't be changed. Bosses or any other class will still have a X% chance to hit. The final % isn't being changed in anyway.
The difference is, this % will scale better for characters with defense then it does now.
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A common misconception amplified by the poor wording of the description for power boost.
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Oh cool
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I'm not too pleased about the idea of them buffing the bosses accuracy in a way that will decrease for the defense set, but the other majority of sets will only be getting hit by bossess more often now.
Just what we need, more hits without the defense to withstand it.
Bummer
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Um, if you have no defense, it makes no apparent difference to how it is now.
It is strictly a buff to defense.
Still here, even after all this time!
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A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.
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The devs get 20 points for listening to the playerbase, 10 points for giving a boost to SR Scrappers, and 10 points for the same to Ice Tanks.
...however, they get -50 points for making yet *another* fundamental alternation to their game engine without warning.
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That seems sort of strange.
One, they didn't change the engine at all. They just moved some values around in the existing engine. Maybe that's an overly technical point.
Two, and more importantly, would you rather they left something that was desperately broken alone? That part confuses me badly. I applaud a sweeping change when it's needed.
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Wow, Silver Gale is really off today. Then again, so are you, Uber.
First of all, this is most definiately a major change, possibly even a "tweak", as States calls them.
Second, this is the most warning that we've had for such a major change, ever.
Think about it: not only do we not know the release time for I7, we don't even have an idea of when it will hit Test. I'm sure someone will correct me, but that's a Ton of Warning.
And I'm very happy to be able to say that!
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
So...when do we get the Katana/lightning with pistols? I wanna get some of that! That looked really cool!
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they get -50 points for making yet *another* fundamental alternation to their game engine without warning.
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Technically, this thread is the warning, since none of this is coming until I7.
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I want to say: BRAVO to States, Positron, Castle, Beard, Cuppa, and anyone else i missed (at work little time between posts) for listening and the changes. I appreciate the help defense gets, and the av changes. The stealth nerf being taken out, is just awesome. Thanks for listening!! Keep it up!!
I'd like to point out to the people who fear doom, that everything in life is a work in progress, and even though the rollercoaster may have it's downs (nerfs) they are always eclipsed by the ups (buffs). This shows that things have and will continue to improve.
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(credit Pulsewave for the list)
Disorient, sleep, confuse, fear, immobilize, and hold duration
Knockback/up distance
Repel stregth
Run, fly speed
Defense, Accuracy (tohit) Buffs
Heal
Endurance Drain/Modification
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QFE. I'm still ticked that my Blapper does Scrapper damage, but at least now I can consider getting Scrapper defenses along with that "meh" damage.
Well, no status protection, but... I'll take it.
Will there ever be Energy Melee for Scrappers? Doesn't look like it, but at least I can emulate a EM/SR again, now.
And, no, post-ED, that build isn't overpowered. If anything, Blappers (concept ones, anyway) are a little weak.
After all, Blasters can't do more DoT than Scrappers if they are dead - and no one is doing decent burst damage any more, by design (ED).
Heck, I even get to have my Smashing damage heavily resisted - I'm almost a Scrapper that way, too!
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
hey I just realized something...with buffing defence they nerfed accuracy!
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Some more good news...
Ice Tankers and SR Scrappers have long lamented that Defense doesn't scale with level. Because mobs higher level than a player possess an inherent to hit bonus, Defense isn't as effective over levels as Resistance.
A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.
This change is coming in I7
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Spectacular! Thanks States! I knew something waas in the works. This proves the point: patience is a virtue.
~~~Applause~~~
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Wow, Silver Gale is really off today. Then again, so are you, Uber.
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Err... How was I off in disagreeing with Gale, there? 
I was disagreeing...
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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hey I just realized something...with buffing defence they nerfed accuracy!
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Only villain accuracy. 
And actually, they buffed villain accuracy. They just stopped buffing their base toHit.
Yes, I am splitting hairs at a level that would make IBM's atom-moving lasers envious.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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they get -50 points for making yet *another* fundamental alternation to their game engine without warning.
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Technically, this thread is the warning, since none of this is coming until I7.
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Castle with the 1-2-3 pin!
Can't wait for issue 7!
I hope this has not been stated before, but I see 1 potential problem with this change that should be addressed.
I love what this alteration is doing for SR scrappers and Ice tankers.... however, when it comes to Invulnerability there is an issue.
Under the current system unyielding gives a -5% defense effect across the board.
This essentially enhanced the to-hit value of minions from 50 to 55%... lieutenants from 62.5% to 67.5%... and bosses from 75% to 80%.
If this change goes into effect without altering the unyielding defense debuff we will get the following result.
Minions will go from 50% to 55% (no change here)
Liuetenants will go from 62.5% to 68.75 (an increase over current values)
Bosses will see the largest change as they go from 75% to 82.5% (another increase over current values)
This can be rectified by adjusting the unyielding debuff to compensate and I recommend that such an adjustment take place to prevent a nerf from comming out of what is supposed to be a buff to defense based sets.
Ooh, good call, Hunter. (I didn't check your numbers, so I hope you did. )
Maybe this would be a good time for the devs to consider just plain dropping that debuff thing. 
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Err... How was I off in disagreeing with Gale, there?
I was disagreeing...
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You were claiming that this wasn't a major change: what I was trying to say is that you were both wrong, for completely different reasons.
I probably should have worded that better... in fact, I probably wouldn't bother to disagree with you except it pertained to my point.
I only wish that I had seen Castle's post, since I really didn't need to reply...
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
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hey I just realized something...with buffing defence they nerfed accuracy!
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Okay, reading comprehension time. i suggest going to the Dev Digest and reading all the posts there on the defense change that's coming. The Devs are not buffing defense. The defense values, other than SR getting a decrease in one power, are not changing. The change is in how defense scales, or more accurately, how the increase in accuracy that higher level mobs get is applied. Instead of being applied as a bonus to base to-hit, the increase in accuracy from being of higher level will function as a standard buff. In other words, the level boost is applied after defense is subtracted from the base to-hit. All this change does is make it so that defense scales against higher level enemies in PvE pretty much the same way resistance does.
For Grod's sake please go read the Dev Digest, it's not complicated.
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My Mastermind is scared of the monsters lurking under his bed, now.
Don't get me wrong. I love the sound of this change. I love what it's going to do for my MA/SR scrapper.
But I'm afraid that my Ninja/FF Mastermind will suddenly become "overpowered" by this change. Please tell me someone in-house actually thought about this build, playtested it, and determined that it is not, in fact, overpowered and will not need to be brought back into balance with a swing of the nerf bat.
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they get -50 points for making yet *another* fundamental alternation to their game engine without warning.
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Technically, this thread is the warning, since none of this is coming until I7.
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Can we have a warning about how you are going to un-prenerf MM's for pvp.
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I hope this has not been stated before, but I see 1 potential problem with this change that should be addressed.
I love what this alteration is doing for SR scrappers and Ice tankers.... however, when it comes to Invulnerability there is an issue.
Under the current system unyielding gives a -5% defense effect across the board.
This essentially enhanced the to-hit value of minions from 50 to 55%... lieutenants from 62.5% to 67.5%... and bosses from 75% to 80%.
If this change goes into effect without altering the unyielding defense debuff we will get the following result.
Minions will go from 50% to 55% (no change here)
Liuetenants will go from 62.5% to 68.75 (an increase over current values)
Bosses will see the largest change as they go from 75% to 82.5% (another increase over current values)
This can be rectified by adjusting the unyielding debuff to compensate and I recommend that such an adjustment take place to prevent a nerf from comming out of what is supposed to be a buff to defense based sets.
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The Unyeilding debuff needs to be taken into context. It isn't supposed to be totally by itself. Added together with tough hide and invincibility, it's not bad... except against Psi.
I do feel it needs to be slightly toned down and that the PSI component needs to be removed.
Still here, even after all this time!
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...however, they get -50 points for making yet *another* fundamental alternation to their game engine without warning.
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ummmmm...the change isn't even on test yet. It's coming in with I-7. Two months warning isn't enough for you?
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Maybe he works for internal beta testing and is disapointed he was not told it was being tested in house 
Even taken "in context" it is 25% more potent against lieutenants than it is currently, and 50% more potent against bosses.
The problem is that just as defense will now "scale" with villain class (i.e. minion, lieutenant, boss)... so will the defense debuff in unyielding.
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I look forward to a detailed explanation of how this will work.
Glad you asked. Basically, Level advantage in PvE, Lts, Bosses, AV's, and Monsters had To Hit bonuses. This made Defense not scale properly. We changed them so that instead of To Hit bonuses, they have Accuracy bonuses. What that means is, Defense is applied before their bonus, rather than after. Since Accuracy is a multiplier, it is multiplying a small base value than before.
For instance, an AV had a base To Hit of 75%. If a player had 25% Defense, the AV would have had a 50% chance to hit. Under the new system, the AV's has a base 50% chance to hit. The Defense is applied, reducing his To Hit to 25%. The Accuracy is then applied, giving a final To Hit of 37.5% -- a 12.5% improvement over the old system.
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Thank you. It certainly does look good on paper. It means the higher ranked and higher level enemies will still have an advantage, just not so thoroughly decisive.
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they get -50 points for making yet *another* fundamental alternation to their game engine without warning.
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Technically, this thread is the warning, since none of this is coming until I7.
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Ya, take that 1950's society!