Not once, not twice, but three times...

TerraDraconis · 01-11-2006 09:53 AM

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I'm an FF defender...I need a team even for bosses/elite bosses

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If I understand the fix right you will still be facing AV's then. If you have a big enough team the mission will always spawn an AV. Duo teams might face only Elite's but even there you can get the mission to spawn an AV but bumping your difficulty up before starting the mission.

Also if I'm understanding it right everyone will face the AV's its just that they will spawn as elites if your solo or have a small enough team. So that stupid Maestro mission I was stuck with for 2 levels could have been done by me and I would have faced an elite Maestro instead of the AV Maestro I did have to deal with.

For me this is a fantastic change I just don't put teams together at all. I'll play in your team if you set one up and invite me but I won't no matter what make one myself. Its an odd quirk.

But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius

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GadgetDon · 01-11-2006 09:53 AM

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And AV missions were not designed to be soloed. That's the design I'm referrring to. They are meant to be teamed. I will now have a harder time getting teams but I'll just resign myself to that. I /like/ getting the call "Need help with [insert AV here] rest of mission is cleared please come help" and I expect I will never get one of those tells.

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If the reward they are adding for AVs is compelling enough, you may still be getting those tells to help clear AVs.

I am 100% in favor of encouraging and rewarding teaming. I hate mandatory teaming.

My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
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LaughingRat · 01-11-2006 09:56 AM

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Again, all of this will be solved by adding explicit text to the mission briefing before I accept the mission. Cryptic has a mixed record of doing this on mission text for AVs, simultaneous clickies etc. so I want to start asking for it NOW.

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That won't solve the problem, though. Usually when an AV/Hero appears in an arc, it's not in the first mission, it's later on. If you're not warned about the AV/Hero from the very start, you can end up stuck with an AV/Hero mission later and not be able to not only to clear the mission, but the arc. And since there's still no way to drop a mission, you're stuck, without forewarning.

Lothart · 01-11-2006 09:59 AM

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That won't solve the problem, though. Usually when an AV/Hero appears in an arc, it's not in the first mission, it's later on. If you're not warned about the AV/Hero from the very start, you can end up stuck with an AV/Hero mission later and not be able to not only to clear the mission, but the arc.

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That's not the problem I'm referring to. I 'm referring to, post-change, having to check each and every missions I am about to start to make sure I have a large enough team that I /do/ spawn the AV.

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And since there's still no way to drop a mission, you're stuck, without forewarning.

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That's coming.

Gangrel_NA · 01-11-2006 10:14 AM

I believe instead off nerfing the power to keep people from farming a glowie mission they should make it impossible to farm it the way it is suggested in this thread. If you set a glowie mission and you quit or are D/C from that mission, but the rest of the team completes it in attempt to farm it or just because they didnt think to wait for you. Just mark the mission as complete when the holder logs back in and give him the mission bonus. This way the mission can not be farmed and it still leave open the option to do mission using stealth instead of smashing your way through.

I hate that powers are being changed to stop the small % of people that want to PL and farm, instead of finding ways to stop it from happening that only affect those that are doing it. I liked the Devs solution to stop people from farming the Dreck mission by making it timed, instead of trying to nerf powers to prevent it from happening.

I have one stealth alt and I have yet to stealth a mission, because I like to fight my way through with my teammates and rack up the expierence from the arrests. But I also like when their is a stealth option for those long SF/TF and if down the road I want to stealth a mission when I'm solo and I just want to hurry through it, I wont have that option

Stupid_Fanboy · 01-11-2006 10:36 AM

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This is bait and switch how?

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Its a bait and switch because most people didnt see this as a problem to begin with and as such needed no solution. Now instead of just leaving it alone, we are happy it just not being nerfed like it was planned.

They can say they listen to the playerbase because it was suggested by a few that suppression be used instead of no clicky, but most people said just leave it alone.

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Just because most people didn't see it as a problem, doesn't mean that there isn't/wasn't one.

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in this case, i'm gonna have to say yes, it does mean there wasn't a problem. especially since all the people saying that this was an exploit were the ones saying that Phase shift was an exploit and that we should just use stealth or invis because that way is perfectly fine.

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QuietAmerican · 01-11-2006 10:38 AM

Great. As a solo, Looking forward to playing the new changes.

Hope it works out and thank you.

LordTenma · 01-11-2006 10:51 AM

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First...I confirm that we're working on right now (as in pohsyb in the next room) to add CoV costume parts into CoH if you own both games....

Then we repeal the hated stealth nerf. The reason why: many well reasoned posts. It's that simple. You guys pointed out the problems.

AND now...we're changing the way Archvillains spawn. A ton of forum goers disliked adding so many AV's into missions a while back...so we've come up with a solution. If the team size and mission difficulty are ABOVE a certain level, an Archvillain spawns. Below that, players will face only an Elite Boss. If the mission is set on the first two levels of difficulty, it takes 4 heroes or more to spawn an Arch Villain. On the third level, 3 heroes or more. On the fourth level, 2 heroes. On the highest (Invincible), a solo hero will spawn an AV. Note this works in BOTH City of Heroes and Villains.

In order to incentivize larger teams, Positron is going to add a bonus to AV rewards!

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Sweet Munkey Jebus I love you....so can one of the AV rewards be a "Huck Synapse" temp power...ya know like the Red caps do in Croatoa...*has this mental image of a midget dressed like Synapse pounding on some villains head*

Lothart · 01-11-2006 10:58 AM

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in this case, i'm gonna have to say yes, it does mean there wasn't a problem.

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Well, that's not your call to make.

EvilGeko · 01-11-2006 11:06 AM

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in this case, i'm gonna have to say yes, it does mean there wasn't a problem.

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Well, that's not your call to make.

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Correct it's Statesman's. But Statesman has been far from consistent on this point. Statesman refuses to see that there is no difference between:

No risk

and

No appreciable risk

Statesman is trying to stamp out the former while leaving the latter alone. That's just not rational. For instance, a Defender or Controller or MM using PFF to click glowies is at NO appreciable risk in any standard mission. Certainly there is the theorhetical risk that all the mobs will roll natural 20s and kill the character but the chances of that happening are so low as to be non-existent. In fact, over time, there is no risk so even if the improbable occurs once, the person still gets no-risk exp.

There are dozens of examples I could give.

But the point remains is that stealthing glowies while Statesman believed that to be a problem, given the design goals he has announced it is not a problem.

And before you say that PFF could also be on the chopping block (it probably will be at some point), there are other no-risk exp examples, that I decline to mention for a variety of reasons, but will in PM if you like.

The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

Lothart · 01-11-2006 11:11 AM

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And before you say that PFF could also be on the chopping block (it probably will be at some point), there are other no-risk exp examples, that I decline to mention for a variety of reasons, but will in PM if you like.

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I'm all for removing all of them.

Doesn't mean I don't want the most obvious ones fixed first. I don't expect the devs not to fix a single thing in the game until they can fix every single thing in the game. Nothing would ever get done.

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But the point remains is that stealthing glowies while Statesman believed that to be a problem, given the design goals he has announced it is not a problem.

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Design goal "risk=reward". I fail to see how this is not a step towards that.

Hqnk · 01-11-2006 11:17 AM

I'll keep this simple....YAYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!

reiella · 01-11-2006 11:17 AM

I wonder if the level based adjustments will come into play for the AVs...

+2 AV is the only possibility solo, is kind of an amusing concept.

Conversely, if you group with 2 people on the 4th setting, you get a +1 AV with a larger group of twerp minons...

And doesn't a 4 person group create a +1 level modifier anyway? Or is that 6 person?

Just Oi Oi.

Let's Dance!

Powerhelm · 01-11-2006 11:17 AM

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There are very legitimate reasons people wish to do this, and to take it away because someone can abuse it, is wrong. And I hope the devs don't do it.

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There are very legitimate reasons for taunting more than 5 enemies at a time.

There are very legitimate reasons for using Phase shift more than 30 second ever 2 minutes(is it longer recharge?)

They removed those.

I don't like this because now in order to spawn an AV you have to increase the entire missions difficulty, either via larger group = more mobs (which since I5/I6 = mucho danger-o and not much reward...o..) or jackin up your difficulty = more difficult mobs all the way through (now instead of white minions you gotta fight orange minions).

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I'm not saying that I think AV's are too easy, just that the game itself is.

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Depends on your AT

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And badge people, killing LT-grade Fake Nemesis in Heroic missions counts towards the badge, doesn't it?

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And how many heroic solo missions spawn more than 2-3 Fake Nems at Lt level??

You'd have to run 33-50 solo heroic Nemesis missions each with 3 Nem Fakes to get the badge...

I can see this as bait an switch too: Hey we're gonna pound your face in for no reason.

a week later

Hey I'm not gonna pound your face in after all.

Oh geez thanks for not doing something you shouldn't have been planning to do in the first place...

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Good. Then I shall fight the spawn next to the AV with stealth and SS running and be unseeable by the AV until I'm ready, with my Instant Healing Toggle running, or perma-MOG ready to take him on.

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And that harms me how? not at all? ok go to it. hey remember when Bubbles provided really nice 5 slotted defense?! I remember back when I could solo a heroic mission!

Like someone said its just a matter of If I can't do it you shouldn't be able to. First non-AV soloing ATs (not me) complained about people soloing AVs...which didn't affect them at all. Then people complained about Herding and PLing too...again it never hurt the people that didn't do it. And most recently soloers complained about needing help to beat AVs because of all the nerfs making it impossible to solo them so they want them to be made easier.

However this change affects the requirements to spawn an AV which affects me negatively just like all those other changes affected the people that enjoyed those game aspects negatively. I enjoy teaming and enjoy AVs. Now I have to make sure I have X amount of people or X difficulty in order to get an av.

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If I understand the fix right you will still be facing AV's then.

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And my point was this isn't easier for all ATs this is just easier for certain ATs or certain builds.

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I am 100% in favor of encouraging and rewarding teaming. I hate mandatory teaming.

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Well now having an AV spawn requires a certain size team. Even if the team could beat an AV with say 3 people it requires you get a fourth or fifth. Now we have Mandatory Team Sizes in order to get an AV. Either that or Mandatory Difficulty Increasing to get an AV.

and PFF is very nice but far from no risk. Its a toggle first of all. So if anything hits you with a toggle drop/hold/sleep/mez/etc your toast.

reiella · 01-11-2006 11:33 AM

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Nice change. Since I've been [censored] about use of development time with regards to the stealth change, this AV change is what I call a great use of development time.

And a question for Positron. Whats a World Spawn?

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A World Spawn is a spawn that takes place in the game-world, not in an instanced mission.

The Hamidon Mitochondria are an example of an Arch-villain World Spawn, and thus will not be reduced in any way by this change.

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I'm assuming the monster spawns are also unaffected, but just for giggles, what would you consider the Kronos Ambush to be?

Let's Dance!

Justice_Bruiser · 01-11-2006 11:35 AM

And this IS gameplay as intended. Thanks Jack and all the Devs! I can't wait to see what I7 holds.

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On Protector
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Sgt_Liberty · 01-11-2006 11:36 AM

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If I understand the fix right you will still be facing AV's then.

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And my point was this isn't easier for all ATs this is just easier for certain ATs or certain builds.

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I am 100% in favor of encouraging and rewarding teaming. I hate mandatory teaming.

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Well now having an AV spawn requires a certain size team. Even if the team could beat an AV with say 3 people it requires you get a fourth or fifth. Now we have Mandatory Team Sizes in order to get an AV. Either that or Mandatory Difficulty Increasing to get an AV.

and PFF is very nice but far from no risk. Its a toggle first of all. So if anything hits you with a toggle drop/hold/sleep/mez/etc your toast.

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The number of people, and/or difficulty requirement are not onerous. Missions are still completeable with large teams at high difficulties, but you don't even need that to spawn the AV. The difference between a +0 and +1 AV are practically nil, so you can easily grab 3 people and do it.

And the phrase was "No APPRECIABLE Risk". PFF is much like using some of the Tanker 32 / Scrapper 38 powers. Yes, something might kill you with that running, but it'd take an act of god or doing something incredibly brave/stupid to do so. There aren't any "Toggle Drops" in PvE, and Dispersion Bubble provides protection from Hold and Disorient. There's no "Mez" status effect, and only Sleep attacks can both remove toggles AND not be protected against by Dispersion.

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JAXMAN · 01-11-2006 11:41 AM

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How is seeing an Archvillain with a full team *better* content than seeing the same character as an Elite Boss when you're solo or in a small, low difficulty group? I expect the difficulty of facing an Elite Boss solo is comparable to facing an Archvillain with the average team, especially the average team which is planning on facing an Archvillain.

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It's not about difficulty as much as it's about being able to play the game as it was designed on the level if difficulty it was designed for.

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The level of difficulty the game was designed for no longer exists. On Heoric bosses don't spawn and if you go up a level mission spawn with larger groups than at launch. There have been so many changes to the game referring the the original design is a pointless endeavor. If IH was a toggle, Smoke Grenade was overpowered, Containment was nowhere to be found, and Recharge times were returned then you could complain that you can't play the game as it was initially designed, but more balance changes are just that, more.

I think the spirit of the game has remined intact and the change to AV spawns represents that.

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I want to beat Archvillians. It's one of the only reasons I bother levelling up characters.

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If fighting AV's is the only reason you level up a character why is it a big deal to fight them on Invincible solo? AV's haven't been removed from the game. Currently are there any AV's you can have defeated solo that are spawning levels below you?

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I think some people are confused, with the idea that they won't see the character at all, but some other Elite Boss. I'm certain that that isn't the case.

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What I don't want is to get to the end of a mission, meet an Elite Boss, realize that I need to recruit a team and reset the mission to face that Elite Boss as an AV, the way I was originally meant to face it, which now means I earn nearly double the XP for that mission. That's a serious problem if I'm already outleveling my contacts.

So, I'm left with the choice of continuing and taking the "easy way out" or I'll have to keep redoing my missions.

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By the time AV's become common place it's a lot harder to out level contacts.

I for one have joined missions where the mission holder has encountered an AV and needed help defeating it. I would have liked the mission completion bonus but couldn't get it, and the experience for all the other mobs. Currently people have to log off thier characters in these missions because they cannot find a team to complete them, so they are already getting that awful double experience in a mission.

I for one haven't meet an elite boss that I would consdier the easy way out. I still find that I need a team for some, but the needs of those teams are less than AV teams. Ususally a duo or trio has an easy time with an elite boss, where as the same duo could not take on an AV and win.

I think the changes allow for more options in play style. I know some people will not like to raise their difficulty to face an AV. I would go so far as to say one of the few people I play with consistantly and likes to try to solo AV's and Monsters will not like the AV changes exactly as they are, but he will be able to adapt much easier than people current can to the way things are now.

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Pirates_Rule · 01-11-2006 11:51 AM

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If the team size and mission difficulty are ABOVE a certain level, an Archvillain spawns. Below that, players will face only an Elite Boss. If the mission is set on the first two levels of difficulty, it takes 4 heroes or more to spawn an Arch Villain. On the third level, 3 heroes or more. On the fourth level, 2 heroes. On the highest (Invincible), a solo hero will spawn an AV. Note this works in BOTH City of Heroes and Villains.

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thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you

Thanks!

DavidDun · 01-11-2006 11:58 AM

Hey Positron, whats the reward, an HO?

slave teri · 01-11-2006 11:59 AM

This might be enough to get me to renew another year, despite my bitterness over other game aspects.

Frozen_Icicle · 01-11-2006 12:08 PM

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Then we repeal the hated stealth nerf.

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Glad to see you still listen to reason

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AND now...we're changing the way Archvillains spawn.

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So, to duo an AV, we need difficulty #4, which will usually make it +1 to normal. That works.

Best change in a long time.

Powerhelm · 01-11-2006 12:11 PM

I've seen some say we're going by the "Design" or "Vision" or "Original Intent" or "Spirit"

Could someone please tell me which one we're going by this week so I can keep up? Are these all the same? What is the definition of "the spirit of coh" since that seems to be the flavor of the day regarding references to the game at large.

Freak_Accident · 01-11-2006 12:11 PM

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The reason why: many well reasoned posts. It's that simple. You guys pointed out the problems.

AND now...we're changing the way Archvillains spawn. A ton of forum goers disliked adding so many AV's into missions a while back...so we've come up with a solution. If the team size and mission difficulty are ABOVE a certain level, an Archvillain spawns. Below that, players will face only an Elite Boss. If the mission is set on the first two levels of difficulty, it takes 4 heroes or more to spawn an Arch Villain. On the third level, 3 heroes or more. On the fourth level, 2 heroes. On the highest (Invincible), a solo hero will spawn an AV. Note this works in BOTH City of Heroes and Villains.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know, it kinda makes me want to stop pushing pins into my Voodoo dolly of you Jack.
Thanks for the cool updates and listening to feedback. I genuinely appreciate when you guys do good work, and I wanted to take the time to post a thank you.

Keep it up and the "headache" might stop

Dr_Nicodemus · 01-11-2006 12:16 PM

Hoo-ra! I am sure this post will never be read since it will be buried on page 20 of this thread. But, I greatly applaud this AV/Elite-Boss change. Awesome!