Not once, not twice, but three times...
By
008Zulu,
Posted on: 2006-01-10 16:26 in Developers' Corner
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So, if we are to have the possibility of a defeat each mission and a handful at invincible, why don't they just reward us with automatic debt each time we complete a mision? It would be simpler and STATESMAN WOULD GET HIS "VISION" of a GREAT GAME DESIGN!?!
I am sorry, but there is no balance in Statesman's balanced vision. I mission that will cause a single death for a scrapper or a tank results in nearly constant death for a controller or a defender! And don't give me the same crap that they are suppose to team up... no hero should have to team up for EVERY DARN MISSION! Plus, because of the number of poeple that left to play villains ( not to mention those that left because of VERY POOR PLANNING on COH), there are very few people online when I play in the mornings.
At heroic level, every toon should be am to complete their own missions by themselves- assuming there is no AV or multiple bombs to defuse (that you are NEVER WARNED ABOUT WHEN YOU TAKE THE MISSION!) and it SHOULD NOT PUT YOU FURTHER INTO DEBT THAN WHEN YOU STARTED!
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I don't know what characters YOU'RE playing (I have played multiples of every AT in the game, including Khelds and all villain ATs, up to at least level 14 (Being a severe altoholic) and I have YET to play a character that can't solo missions at the lowest setting (including the Mind controller) and they can ALL (with patience) Solo the highest setting with, at most, a 50/50 chance of dying against particularly mean bosses.
Maybe the PCs and missions aren't your problem?
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Soloability gets a lot harder as you go up in levels.
Also, I'm going to assume you skip the Hollows...a mind controller soloing Frostfire?
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
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So, if we are to have the possibility of a defeat each mission and a handful at invincible, why don't they just reward us with automatic debt each time we complete a mision? It would be simpler and STATESMAN WOULD GET HIS "VISION" of a GREAT GAME DESIGN!?!
I am sorry, but there is no balance in Statesman's balanced vision. I mission that will cause a single death for a scrapper or a tank results in nearly constant death for a controller or a defender! And don't give me the same crap that they are suppose to team up... no hero should have to team up for EVERY DARN MISSION! Plus, because of the number of poeple that left to play villains ( not to mention those that left because of VERY POOR PLANNING on COH), there are very few people online when I play in the mornings.
At heroic level, every toon should be am to complete their own missions by themselves- assuming there is no AV or multiple bombs to defuse (that you are NEVER WARNED ABOUT WHEN YOU TAKE THE MISSION!) and it SHOULD NOT PUT YOU FURTHER INTO DEBT THAN WHEN YOU STARTED!
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I don't know what characters YOU'RE playing (I have played multiples of every AT in the game, including Khelds and all villain ATs, up to at least level 14 (Being a severe altoholic) and I have YET to play a character that can't solo missions at the lowest setting (including the Mind controller) and they can ALL (with patience) Solo the highest setting with, at most, a 50/50 chance of dying against particularly mean bosses.
Maybe the PCs and missions aren't your problem?
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Soloability gets a lot harder as you go up in levels.
Also, I'm going to assume you skip the Hollows...a mind controller soloing Frostfire?
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Most of my heroes were already well beyond the Hollows levels when the hollows was introduced, but I did go back and do some Hollows with some new characters at that time...and did I say anything, anywhere about soloing ELITE bosses or AVs? Read a bit more carefully next time...I said against particularly tough BOSSES....Bosses and ELITE Bosses are totally different. Yes, every AT except maybe tankers/brutes needs a team go to up against Elite Bosses. So?
The Optimist says the glass is half full.
The Pessimist says the glass is half empty.
While they argue about it, the Opportunist comes along, drinks what's left, and removes all doubt. - Redwood
Alvays remember, schmot guy...any plan vere you lose you hat...is a BAD PLAN!
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So, if we are to have the possibility of a defeat each mission and a handful at invincible, why don't they just reward us with automatic debt each time we complete a mision? It would be simpler and STATESMAN WOULD GET HIS "VISION" of a GREAT GAME DESIGN!?!
I am sorry, but there is no balance in Statesman's balanced vision. I mission that will cause a single death for a scrapper or a tank results in nearly constant death for a controller or a defender! And don't give me the same crap that they are suppose to team up... no hero should have to team up for EVERY DARN MISSION! Plus, because of the number of poeple that left to play villains ( not to mention those that left because of VERY POOR PLANNING on COH), there are very few people online when I play in the mornings.
At heroic level, every toon should be am to complete their own missions by themselves- assuming there is no AV or multiple bombs to defuse (that you are NEVER WARNED ABOUT WHEN YOU TAKE THE MISSION!) and it SHOULD NOT PUT YOU FURTHER INTO DEBT THAN WHEN YOU STARTED!
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I don't know what characters YOU'RE playing (I have played multiples of every AT in the game, including Khelds and all villain ATs, up to at least level 14 (Being a severe altoholic) and I have YET to play a character that can't solo missions at the lowest setting (including the Mind controller) and they can ALL (with patience) Solo the highest setting with, at most, a 50/50 chance of dying against particularly mean bosses.
Maybe the PCs and missions aren't your problem?
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Soloability gets a lot harder as you go up in levels.
Also, I'm going to assume you skip the Hollows...a mind controller soloing Frostfire?
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Most of my heroes were already well beyond the Hollows levels when the hollows was introduced, but I did go back and do some Hollows with some new characters at that time...and did I say anything, anywhere about soloing ELITE bosses or AVs? Read a bit more carefully next time...I said against particularly tough BOSSES....Bosses and ELITE Bosses are totally different. Yes, every AT except maybe tankers/brutes needs a team go to up against Elite Bosses. So?
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and yet thats not what he was talkig nabout if statesman is banacing toward one death per heroic then their cant be ballance.
in issue 5 and early since before i change my playstyle AGAIN and respected my character AGAIN my lvl 39-41 ma/sr could barly solo heroic missions..
im im soloing invincible Rikti at 42
my lvl /4/ defender yesterday was soloing and duoing on Rugged...Yes Rugged, the 3rd diffuculty with a lvl 4 kin/elect who has unsloted Transfusion/Siphon power, Charged Bolts and the aoe...And i was teamed wit ha TA/Archer who i ment in outbreak
but if statsman gets his way well all be dieing on heroic...
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
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and yet thats not what he was talkig nabout if statesman is banacing toward one death per heroic then their cant be ballance.
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I'm not sure Statesman ever said he wanted players to die once in every heroic mission. What he said he wanted was for every mission to offer something hairy that you may have to burn up your inspiration tray to get out of or go down fighting.
E.g. You're fighting Freakshow and finish off a yellow minion and an orange lieutenant, both of whom rez as a wandering patrol comes through the room and spots you. Time to run.
That happened to me during the Freaklympics arc. I didn't die, but that seems to be what Statesman was aiming for. More wandering patrols, wave attacks, ambushes, etc. What they're after is each mission offering a chance of dying rather than each mission offering certain death, like a pair of +1 bosses at the end. No more missions that go kill 3 minions, kill 3 minions, kill 3 minions, etc.
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Also, I'm going to assume you skip the Hollows...a mind controller soloing Frostfire?
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Did that with a Mind/Kin, a Grav/Kin and an Ill/Emp. Once you hold him, containment takes over and Frostfire goes down like a Hellion. The one caveat is that I've never done him without having Siphon Speed or Hasten to recycle my holds quicker. Without one of those (or AM or something else) in your build, I could see having some trouble.
Mind actually solos like a demon these days. Illusion is probably weaker until you get your first pets, since you only have one power setting up containment. Mind has two.
I may have asked this before.. but should the heroic setting = "You can't die not even if you want to!" or maybe... "You can go afk with mobs beating on you and still come back and win." Or something along the lines of ... "Auto victory, no matter how you play, the game will cheat enough to make sure you win."
Really is the fact that you can fail on a heroic mission that bad?
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I may have asked this before.. but should the heroic setting = "You can't die not even if you want to!" or maybe... "You can go afk with mobs beating on you and still come back and win." Or something along the lines of ... "Auto victory, no matter how you play, the game will cheat enough to make sure you win."
Really is the fact that you can fail on a heroic mission that bad?
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When some who has ben in the CoH Beta, the CoV Beta and been a loyal costomer for 2 years is balnced tothe point THEY can die on heroic. yes i think thats imbalanced. Cause that mena the gues with less experiewnce wont even makr it out of OUTBREAK.
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
The issue isn't how long you've been playing or how skilled you are with the AT. It's that every mission should offer something dangerous.
Presumably, being a skilled player, you can halt yourself when something dangerous is coming and say "Whoa! I'll be killed here if I'm not careful." So you're careful. And you survive.
The newbie learns the hard way. 
But they do get out of Outbreak.
The difficulty settings are meant to provide a challenge for players of every skill level. Not to let people just do anything stupid that they want to and still get xp with no risk for your reward. No risk = lame and boring game.
Challenge isn't fun for everyone though. Invinc and such need to be upped a bit, and Heroic needs to be dropped down a bit.
Some days I want to have tough fights and great xp, others I just want to rid myself of junk missions.
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When some who has ben in the CoH Beta, the CoV Beta and been a loyal costomer for 2 years is balnced tothe point THEY can die on heroic. yes i think thats imbalanced. Cause that mena the gues with less experiewnce wont even makr it out of OUTBREAK.
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Ye gods...
Spelling class is your friend.....
i enjoy a challenge in games, ED in conjunction with a difficulty slider makes for a great challenge. Analyze the problem, adapt your tactics, overcome the problem.
but still the game could be a little more challenging, such as when a mob runs away, often towards another enemy mob, it aggros the new mob. the wounded mob calls to his friends for help. gives certain ranked enemies (lt and above) a small inventory where they have random inspirations of their own (this would work well on invincible setting)
If the good guy gets the girl, it's rated PG;
If the bad guy gets the girl, it's rated R;
And if everybody gets the girl, it's rated X
- Kirk Douglas
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Most of my heroes were already well beyond the Hollows levels when the hollows was introduced, but I did go back and do some Hollows with some new characters at that time...and did I say anything, anywhere about soloing ELITE bosses or AVs? Read a bit more carefully next time...I said against particularly tough BOSSES....Bosses and ELITE Bosses are totally different. Yes, every AT except maybe tankers/brutes needs a team go to up against Elite Bosses. So?
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Baloney. You bragged that you had played every character to at least level 14 as part of your piece to give yourself credibility. When someone calls you on it you say that you played some of the ATs BEFORE The Hollows was introduced. What a Joke! Your Credibility goes down the drain since you are talking about playing these characters post I5 and Post-ED.
You said that even against Bosses you had at worst a 50/50 defeat ratio. The game is farly easy from levels 1-14. How many of these characetrs were played without having to deal with Issue 5 and ED??? How many other little facts did you leave out of your speil? You have ZERO Credibility.
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i enjoy a challenge in games, ED in conjunction with a difficulty slider makes for a great challenge. Analyze the problem, adapt your tactics, overcome the problem.
but still the game could be a little more challenging, such as when a mob runs away, often towards another enemy mob, it aggros the new mob. the wounded mob calls to his friends for help. gives certain ranked enemies (lt and above) a small inventory where they have random inspirations of their own (this would work well on invincible setting)
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<. .> I actually really like this idea. <Stamp of approval>
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When some who has ben in the CoH Beta, the CoV Beta and been a loyal costomer for 2 years is balnced tothe point THEY can die on heroic. yes i think thats imbalanced. Cause that mena the gues with less experiewnce wont even makr it out of OUTBREAK.
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Doing something for 2ish years does not mean that you are particularly good at it. The only times I've died at the basic level have been when I have done something risky and I knew there was a good chance I was going to get myself leveled because of it. Losing because you tried to push things too far even on the "easy" level doesn't mean the game is unbalanced. By your way of thinking on heroic you should be able to agro the entire mission including the final bad guy and win every single time without a risk of death.. and that's just crazy. The fact that I can lose on a mission if I do something silly makes the game more fun.. even if on heroic it means I have to do something REALLY crazy.
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When some who has ben in the CoH Beta, the CoV Beta and been a loyal costomer for 2 years is balnced tothe point THEY can die on heroic. yes i think thats imbalanced. Cause that mena the gues with less experiewnce wont even makr it out of OUTBREAK.
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Doing something for 2ish years does not mean that you are particularly good at it. The only times I've died at the basic level have been when I have done something risky and I knew there was a good chance I was going to get myself leveled because of it. Losing because you tried to push things too far even on the "easy" level doesn't mean the game is unbalanced.
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It's my opinion that the devs have intentionally balanced this game for regular "defeats" which, at least in missions, give reduced debt. It's frustrating, I agree, however, I think it's incorrect to say that it is a severe liability. Coming from other MMORPGs where the "death rate" is much lower, it may be seen as somewhat of a concern. However, since the death penalty is so small in this game, it is not really an issue.
Now, if the original quote had said that he had trouble COMPLETING a mission, or gaining a particular level, then that would be a problem. But you can die a dozen times in Outbreak and still complete it. As long as you continue to take out foes, even if you die, you will eventually clear out a mission. (Plus, mission difficulty only effects door missions, and there is only one door mission in Outbreak and Breakout, the others are all street sweeping)
I'm not happy with the constant deaths, but I've learned to accept it, and I have to admit, there is really no appreciable debt unless you die SEVERAL times. A single death in a mission can be paid off before the mission ends. So while it is frustrating, it no longer restricts levelling progress. (And I know from experience that in the early days of the game, a build that was weak enough to earn substantial debt levelled MUCH slower than a build that wasn't)
I believe the intention was to balance the game for the possibility of defeat with some regularity, not the absolute certainty of it. There is a difference. I think this point has been missed by several of the posters here, while in addition there are several that are intentionally ignoring it to try and help prove their point.
Basically what it means is that on a mission on heroic difficulty that you can be defeated, not that you will be defeated. On invincibile difficulty the chances become even higher. Even if you are dying constantly, it is still possible to progress through the game. There are also those who play on heroic and very rarely face defeat and rather than turn the difficulty up they would rather play ahead of the curve.
I think that those who are complaining that the game is too hard are hoping to be given a setting where the game is basically a cakewalk, one long and easy tutorial if you will. Never facing defeat, never facing a challenge. Personally I would become rather bored with this kind of interactive screensaver. I think many others would find this boring as well.
The developers seem to think that having a game that is too easy causes the players to get bored and quit playing. The number of old subscribers that have returned to the game now that it has become somewhat more challenging might be some proof of this.
Maybe they are looking for something like progress quest. No chance of anything bad ever happening, and your character always gets more powerful no matter what you do. In fact your character gets more powerful even when you aren't there at the computer!
That seems to be the perfect solution for people who want a video game where defeat and failure is NEVER possible for them.
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When some who has ben in the CoH Beta, the CoV Beta and been a loyal costomer for 2 years is balnced tothe point THEY can die on heroic. yes i think thats imbalanced. Cause that mena the gues with less experiewnce wont even makr it out of OUTBREAK.
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Doing something for 2ish years does not mean that you are particularly good at it. The only times I've died at the basic level have been when I have done something risky and I knew there was a good chance I was going to get myself leveled because of it. Losing because you tried to push things too far even on the "easy" level doesn't mean the game is unbalanced.
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It's my opinion that the devs have intentionally balanced this game for regular "defeats" which, at least in missions, give reduced debt. It's frustrating, I agree, however, I think it's incorrect to say that it is a severe liability. Coming from other MMORPGs where the "death rate" is much lower, it may be seen as somewhat of a concern. However, since the death penalty is so small in this game, it is not really an issue.
Now, if the original quote had said that he had trouble COMPLETING a mission, or gaining a particular level, then that would be a problem. But you can die a dozen times in Outbreak and still complete it. As long as you continue to take out foes, even if you die, you will eventually clear out a mission. (Plus, mission difficulty only effects door missions, and there is only one door mission in Outbreak and Breakout, the others are all street sweeping)
I'm not happy with the constant deaths, but I've learned to accept it, and I have to admit, there is really no appreciable debt unless you die SEVERAL times. A single death in a mission can be paid off before the mission ends. So while it is frustrating, it no longer restricts levelling progress. (And I know from experience that in the early days of the game, a build that was weak enough to earn substantial debt levelled MUCH slower than a build that wasn't)
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If you are unhappy with the amount you are dying why don't you crank down the difficulty setting?
CoH Heroic = Far less deaths per mission then even WoW for correctly leveled dungeons which has 0 exp death penatly and only a minor gold penalty.
At least for the characters I've tried, which have so far been every AT other then Controller up to level 10.
The only problem I have is with situations (which, in this game usually means foes) where my death is a matter of dice rolls only. There are a few non-AV/Hero enemies rolling around in CoV who can kill the "soft" ATs in one shot. Since it's quite rare to be guaranteed the ability to stop a boss in its tracks, this can come down to pure luck (or bad luck, in this case) that the boss gets to you despite your interferance or your teammates and delivers that one-shot blow.
That is not challenging or interesting. I dislike the possibility in the extreme. Foes do not need this sort of raw damage-dealing power to be challenging or interesting. I point to Night Widows, who vex many a player with their -perception but who aren't widely known for one-shot kills.
Related to this is the burden of extremely frequent mezzing that we face as a matter of course. Presumably meant to help them overcome the mez protection of armored ATs, this almost never happens in practice (trust me, I specialize in melee ATs) and is a source of frustration for ATs without that protection (trust me, I play those too).
I don't want things to never go sour in battle. But being down and pulling out a victory is one of the sweetest rushes you can manage in a video game. Overbearing damage/mez make things like that really hard for quite a few ATs, at least solo. I want there to almost always be a way to pull off an escape or victory for more ATs. Right now I see that pretty likely for the armored ATs, reasonably likely for those with potent control/debuff capabilities, and often a lost cause for everyone else.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
You guys will look at my miniscule post count and laugh, but I have read through this thread and it seems like ( and maybe I missed it) but no one is discussing tactics or strategy here or reconnaissance. There is a way to get around the possibility of a death in a Heroic mission or even an invincible mission for that fact. Use some strategy, pull the minions first, use stealth to see what is in the room before busting in like Leroy! I know it doesn't always work but a good bit of the time it does. My two cents! Blast away now!
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You guys will look at my miniscule post count and laugh, but I have read through this thread and it seems like ( and maybe I missed it) but no one is discussing tactics or strategy here or reconnaissance. There is a way to get around the possibility of a death in a Heroic mission or even an invincible mission for that fact. Use some strategy, pull the minions first, use stealth to see what is in the room before busting in like Leroy! I know it doesn't always work but a good bit of the time it does. My two cents! Blast away now!
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Umm, I think you kinda missed part of the point, Bonereaper. You're advocating everyone dip into pools (Stealth, Superspeed) in order to do what they're supposed to be able to do by themselves (using their primary/secondary). UberGuy makes a very good point (and I'm guessing he's referring to Longbow Wardens). All the reconnaisance in the world is not going to help a blaster when they get mezzed mid-fight. I don't think tactics and strategy is the cure-all you're trying to make it seem. No doubt they help tons (I know this), but there are also too many situations where your strategy and tactics are trumped by the game mechanics themselves. Loading up your tray with break frees is a band-aid solution at best. Single pulling, while effective in many cases, to me is too EQ1-ish and kills the major draw of this game for me (its pace).
But then, maybe that's why I only play scrappers and brutes nowadays.
@Remianen / @Remianen Too
Sig by RPVisions
Your points are very valid! I guess I look at what they did with ED and I see them trying to force us in a way to take the lesser used or not used power pool sets. I'm not saying that is a good thing or not. I was just trying to offer an alternative that is all.
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Your points are very valid! I guess I look at what they did with ED and I see them trying to force us in a way to take the lesser used or not used power pool sets. I'm not saying that is a good thing or not. I was just trying to offer an alternative that is all.
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Your point about Tactics is a valid one and any AT can use tactics without having to have a power pool with all the bells and whistles. Designating someone of the team to be LEAD or SCOUT is probably the most basic yet little used tactic for a group. Instead of allowing the Tank or someone w/ Invis or Stealth to go first and look the situation over, too many players insist on running pell-mell into rooms or taking a notion to fly ahead and see whats on the balcony above. 
This is a problem I have with many Pick Up Groups, You usually get at least 1-2 Yahoos who insist on rushing ahead and agroing mobs and then expecting the group to come save their.... cape.
Also... take Pulling for example. Why do all Blasters think they are master Pullers? They Snipe into a group and while it sometimes works to pull a couple, the manual states that the best pull is a low damage attack. The higher damage the attack, the better the chance to agro the whole mob.
Simple Tactics say that after you PULL a mob that you duck behind a corner or object and force the MOB to come to YOU. Even after I get people to PULL mobs they stand there afterwards and those in the mobs with Ranged attacks (usually suerior in range to ours) blast away.
Say that you get someone to PULL a Mob and actually teach them to duck behind cover.... what happens? Another Yahoo or two will rush the agroed the mob BEFORE they round the corner and engage them too close to the main group.
Sorry for the Rant but I go thru this nonsense everyday if I join or form a Pick Up Team. Most of my regular team mates have departed or are off playing DDO or WOW. My point was; you don't need a special power pool to use Tactics.
Alot of players seem to want the game easy enough that such lack of tactics are not penalized. Unfortunately, as soon as they sense they can do this in the mission they also want to bump up the Difficulty and then can't understand why the whole team is wiped out.
On the other side of the coin, many players are only haoppy if the Difficulty is so high that Pulling every mob is essential as is having a well balanced team makeup. I for one do NOT like the game style of having to pull each mob and waiting to play until I can find that certain De-Buffer or required AT. I would prefer a level of difficulty that requires SOME tactics but not for each and every mob! Sometimes its just nice to *SMASH*! 
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So, if we are to have the possibility of a defeat each mission and a handful at invincible, why don't they just reward us with automatic debt each time we complete a mision? It would be simpler and STATESMAN WOULD GET HIS "VISION" of a GREAT GAME DESIGN!?!
I am sorry, but there is no balance in Statesman's balanced vision. I mission that will cause a single death for a scrapper or a tank results in nearly constant death for a controller or a defender! And don't give me the same crap that they are suppose to team up... no hero should have to team up for EVERY DARN MISSION! Plus, because of the number of poeple that left to play villains ( not to mention those that left because of VERY POOR PLANNING on COH), there are very few people online when I play in the mornings.
At heroic level, every toon should be am to complete their own missions by themselves- assuming there is no AV or multiple bombs to defuse (that you are NEVER WARNED ABOUT WHEN YOU TAKE THE MISSION!) and it SHOULD NOT PUT YOU FURTHER INTO DEBT THAN WHEN YOU STARTED!
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I don't know what characters YOU'RE playing (I have played multiples of every AT in the game, including Khelds and all villain ATs, up to at least level 14 (Being a severe altoholic) and I have YET to play a character that can't solo missions at the lowest setting (including the Mind controller) and they can ALL (with patience) Solo the highest setting with, at most, a 50/50 chance of dying against particularly mean bosses.
Maybe the PCs and missions aren't your problem?
The Optimist says the glass is half full.
The Pessimist says the glass is half empty.
While they argue about it, the Opportunist comes along, drinks what's left, and removes all doubt. - Redwood
Alvays remember, schmot guy...any plan vere you lose you hat...is a BAD PLAN!