Not once, not twice, but three times...
By
008Zulu,
Posted on: 2006-01-10 16:26 in Developers' Corner
Not even gonna quote you on this one. I've already answered the whole "whining" thing in the very post you quoted. And the question about whether or not it's "worthwhile" to make concerns known in the forum, well, that's been answered too. Your post is just a restatement of all the answered trolling over the last couple of pages. If you want the answers, read the thread.
And if YOU think it's a waste of time, don't do it. But since we DID just get some changes from all our "whining" for over a year, i don't think I agree with your premise, your logic, OR your conclusion.
Now, if you want to go back, read the posts where I've already answered all this stuff, then post rebuttals to those, I'll spend some time going over your post. But as it stands, i'm too busy for it.
Thanks for asking, though.
Remember, Scion: The alternative to supression is bringing back the across-the-board -ACC for all travel powers, the whining about which was what brought about Supression in the first place. (Per your Sig)
As for ED, a number of adjustment suggestions are floating out there, Including my own... so how about coming up with a creative solution to the problem instead of moaning and pining for "the good old days" of 6-mono-slotting?
Do you REALLY want to find out what a stalker's AS would be like with DOUBLE the damage it does now? (Say hello, one-shot Tanker kills)
The Optimist says the glass is half full.
The Pessimist says the glass is half empty.
While they argue about it, the Opportunist comes along, drinks what's left, and removes all doubt. - Redwood
Alvays remember, schmot guy...any plan vere you lose you hat...is a BAD PLAN!
[ QUOTE ]
Remember, Scion: The alternative to supression is bringing back the across-the-board -ACC for all travel powers, the whining about which was what brought about Supression in the first place. (Per your Sig)
As for ED, a number of adjustment suggestions are floating out there, Including my own... so how about coming up with a creative solution to the problem instead of moaning and pining for "the good old days" of 6-mono-slotting?
Do you REALLY want to find out what a stalker's AS would be like with DOUBLE the damage it does now? (Say hello, one-shot Tanker kills)
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with Minotaur.
As for Stalker assassin strikes... simply make all or a portion of Criticals resistable. Easy peasy. Lessee... an unslotted level 10 Assassin hits for 175ish? Of which 150 is the critical. 25 actual damage... So with 90% resists, you take 152.5. Anyway, that's PvP so I just don't do it 
/agree Minotaur.
@bpphantom
The Defenders of Paragon
KGB Special Section 8
[ QUOTE ]
heres an interesting question.. instead of complaining about ED, and getting nothing done, why not accept that ED is in the past, and will likely NEVER be removed as a whole. instead of using your time, effort, and resoruces to complain about what has happened to you, and why your min/max toons have seen this GIANT hit in recent days, why not Look to the future, and tell the devs what you would like to see them add...
[/ QUOTE ]
Why do so many people assume that those of us who are opposed to things like ED and Travel Power Suppression have min/maxed characters?
I resent the implication, because the very fact that I refer to them as "characters" and refuse to use the word "toons" should be a clear indicator that I want to develop these creations in a creative way.
If my speedster has Martial Arts, it's only because as a Scrapper he can't have any sort of fisticuffs attack other than Dark Melee, which is wrong for the character concept. Making him a Tanker allows for fisticuff attacks, but is likewise wrong for the concept.
Super Reflexes would seem to be a perfect match, but "Quickness", which is supposed to accelerate not just movement but also the "speed" of his attacks - presumably this means the animation resolution rate, since it cannot accept Recharge Enhs - in fact does nothing to appreciably increase the rate at which his attack animations resolve.
Like many players, I could not care less what an "optimal build" is.
But I do want to play the character I designed in the manner I designed him to be played.
Being able to do that, by the way, is what Cryptic implies in all their sales literature.
Dasher (My "archetype" is SUPER SPEEDSTER)
HELP SAVE THIS GAME!
If we can save this game, I promise I will never complain about Travel Power Suppression again! You have my word on it!
"The customer is always right."
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Again, after all that's said and done, I find the changes have ultimately brought more diversity to feasibility of builds, and more variety of play. I notice that most of the people who are ranting ad nauseum about the changes are ones who refuse to adapt.
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1) ED added no new options to the game. This is a fallacy. It FORCES people to slot in an even MORE specific way in order to reach max effectiveness now, but that was by taking AWAY something, not adding anything.
2) As to your repeated characterization of those unhappy with the repeated nerfs which you, having been gone for 14 months, weren't here for as "whiners" and those who "fail to adapt": it's not whining to express displeasure at a change in a product with which you are now less-satisfied, nor to repeatedly defend your assertion that it shouldn't have been changed. See "New Coke" for an example of why. And since I am one of the most vocal proponents of a partial rollback of the combined I5/ED nerfs, let me assure you: I have adapted. I have min-maxed my character through ED-compliant slotting, and I solo on relentless on every character I have over lvl 20 in both CoH (Invincible, of course) and CoV.
So, I guess what I'm saying is: you seem to be the one who's whining about people who complain, and "adapting" to the nerfs doesn't alter the fact that they ARE nerfs. Seeing as how you haven't played in over a year, it IS just possible that you're experiencing the fun of the game as if you had never played before, while those of us who stuck around have DEFINITELY noticed the difference.
Not everyone is equally against it. But ALMOST everyone agrees that SOMETHING has to be done for SOME of the classes that were hit hardest by these double-strength global nerfs.
If you don't LIKE this activity,, then feel free to move on to another thread. But don't come in here insulting the posters by denigrating their opinion en masse and categorizing us all as "whiners" and "drama-queens".
It just marks you as a closed-minded, self-obsessed....alright, I'm going to stop there.
Have a good one.
[/ QUOTE ]
heres an interesting question.. instead of complaining about ED, and getting nothing done, why not accept that ED is in the past, and will likely NEVER be removed as a whole. instead of using your time, effort, and resoruces to complain about what has happened to you, and why your min/max toons have seen this GIANT hit in recent days, why not Look to the future, and tell the devs what you would like to see them add...
For instance. ED has severely effected one-enhancement accepting powers, like hasten, hover, health, stamina, etc.. ok, That change is in the past.. now, instead of whining about this, how about you take the approach that MIGHT ACTUALLY GET NOTICED BY THE DEVS, since you aren't linked into the stuff that nobody wants to read, and try this... Make a post that says "hmm, Hover is slow, is there any hope of increasing the base speed to make it more useful?"
or
"hmm.. It seems to me that I'm running out of endurance faster than it seems that I should.. My toon has endurance reducers in most of his powers, and it is still a problem. perhaps the base recovery rate of stamina might be boosted to compensate?"
Quit fighting the past. if you want to complain about somthing, so it while the patch/update is still on test, and the decision hasn't been set in stone. giving up on something has no purpose, but accepting change, and offering suggestions to make the game AS IT IS NOW better would likely get far better results.
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Obviously you weren't here BEFORE it went to test. The outcry was maddenning. While it was on test, same. Tons of testing was done and all was ignored. Suggestions were made, and all of them equally ignored.
Maybe we weren't ingored, but the EXACT proposal that was posted is the same thing on live today. Tons of really good suggestions (in my opinion better, rewarding for diverse slotting instead of penalizing for focused slotting) are still being suggested. But we're just customers. We pay to play their game.
well, here is my opinion on this, large thread.
Number One, Thank you Statesman for listening to your player base and hearing what we have to say on the matter.
Number Two, AV Spawns, I agree with the new system whole heartedly.
Number Three, stealth nerf, I didn't agree with the stealth nerf, and don't really see how suppression would work well either. Perhaps you should supress the amount of xp to be garnered while stealthed. (ie, 1-25 xp per white when stealthed, unstealth to get full).
Number Four, Albiet this was not part of the original discussion but ED... ED doesn't do what you inteneded. You in a well meaning mistake meant ED to create a more Diverse enviroment where people did more then slot for damage. I agree that this was a problem, however now you are enforcing a diffrent incarnation of the same problem. Everyone must slot in the same style, or they're characters at high levels become diffcult to play. I think this should be looked at in a very serious manner. ED is a significant disruption to Tanks, Scrappers, Defenders, and Blasters. I don't know about controllers, I don't play one. But when you go from being able to drop a white con boss with one shot of your "Snipe Shot." to simply drawing his attention. well this is an issue. Snipe traditionally means "One Shot One Kill." In short a diffrent system allowing us the freedom of choice needs to be installed. If somone want to play an overpowered PVP oriented character fine. In PVP zones make the battle oriented enhancements (Acc, Dmg, and status effects off hand), to be disabled in the zone. Blame it on Radiation from all the battles.
Number Four, this is a good one, Travel Power Suppresion, this is a severe detriment for some AT/Travel power combos. the main I am thinking of are Superspeedy scrappers. They have the unfortunate task of not being able to use they're focused upoun power to get away. Fliers, ever the short end of the stick, get it as well. Where a flier should be able to get outta a tight spot he can't. So you want a solution other then being able to supress the powers? How about more baddies with varied Travel Powers, I have never seen somone give chase with Superjump, or Superspeed.
Last but not least, my opinion, if it has nto been stated well enough...
ED get rid of it, repeal it in part or in whole. Tanks who have main powers that only accept one type of enhancement, cannot be tanks. They have become large HP soaks yes, but not Tanks (by tank I mean a large metal object that shooting atdoes you no good without a rocket launcher). Scrappers damage dropped dramatically, as did blasters. Yes there is a reason we are all complaining. Please Statesman if you read this take it to heart, Nerfs however benificial do not fly in RP games. If I decided in my wisdom in my PnP game I didn't like the rogue's sneak attack ability, I could in my infinite wisdom remove it, and this would cause complaints, I would listen and probably allow the main ability of a class to remain intact. You have taken away the main ability of not one, but THREE archtypes in your heroside game, and you are seemingly not listening to us about it. Please, at least rollback ED when it comes to powers that accept Only One type of Enhancement.
Thanks.
@elvnsword
Lvl 14 Tanker,
Lvl 26 Brute
Lvl 26 Blaster
PS I played the brute from October prerelease, I have Played the tank since I started playing. What does that tell you on how enjoyable your changes made the Tank.
"when i can savagely beat sheep while issuing ultimatums and torturing people, then i may go back into it" -vara nocturne
Not enough Evil...
I take it back NC SOFT is enough evil for anyone...
I'm not going to use quotes here, because it is unnecessary.
I was used to pre I4...I came back to the game with a great many changes, not the least of which are these much-maligned I5, I6, and ED changes. Next comes the reference the the boiling frog analogy. I came in to a much changed game and have been able to easily adapt to the changes, going forward, and finding more fun, unlike those who sat through the heat being slowly turned up and noticed it much more, seemingly. Again, reverse of the boiling frog analogy, which is odd in itself.
Scion...Yes, I referred to it as whining. I've seen you and/or others here in this thread casting base insults at others ranging from "moron" to "stupid" and worse... Note, I said you and others (such as Neko), not strictly you. So please don't presume to be on any moral high ground here. Additional to that, I'm seeing ad nasueum opining for the "good ol days" of 6 slotting single powers and how that was somehow more diverse than needing to slot different things now, or just slot less? How is that not more diverse? Honestly. Because you choose to stick with min/max builds for certain effects doesn't mean there isn't mroe diversity. As someone who wasn't around through the changes, I am greatly noting the obvious diversity in the game. For one, I'd like to point out that everyone and their brother isn't a Fire/Dev Blaster, Fire/Fire Blaster, or Burn or Inv Tanker. I swear, you couldn't jump down from the tram platform when I stopped playing without tripping over a half-dozen of one of the "Big 3" FotM's... Nowadays, I see far more Defenders and Controllers than ever before, without a really noticeable lack of scrappers, blasters, or tankers. All seem to be easily had for groups when needed.
I'm also seeing far more variety in primary and secondary power sets being taken, as opposed to the "if you're a blaster and you aren't Energy or Fire, you ain't [censored]" attitude that used to pervade the game. Now, other power sets seem to not only be more viable, but chosen more.
This is all, again, my observations since starting to play again a couple weeks ago.
To the person that said that concept builds were nerfed into non-existence, I call pure and unadulterated [censored] on... Every one of my builds is a concept build. Hell, my current MA/Regen scrapper, almost 40, still has only 3 powers from his primary set. Tonms of pool powers taken to taste for his concept. He's got a backstory written to explain his powers, and all that. My wife can't understand how I seem to survive so well going into VERY ugly missions on (forgive me for not having the names memorized yet, the difficulty slider I'm still trying to get used to) level 4 above Heroic... Without IH. Without Resilience. With Integration only 3 slotted. With Qucik Recovery 2 slotted. With Health and Stamina 3 slotted. With Fast Healing 6 slotted.
Why yes, he chews through inspirations. So? Isn't that the point of having them? Seriously, to have an inspiration and act upon it in a time of need during a particularly tough battle seems to be just how the superheroes of comic, cartoons, and tv work. That's how I view them...to be used, not horded unless fighting an AV. I see my contacts and save helpless citizens in my search for inspirations constantly.
I dunno...I find the game far more fun than it was, originally. All of the things added, since then, far outweigh any "normalization" of powers (things others see as nerfs) over that period.
Blasters and scrappers nerfed into non-existence? Talk about gross hyperbole. Nah...not even that. Just a pure lie. In fact, it's nice that there isn't just 6 scrappers or blasters on a team.
Again, scrappers nerfed into non-existence? Well my 48 (at the time) unrespecced kat/regen scrapper's [censored] was TANKING Rudalak on the Sarah Miller TF set on (again, forgive the point that I don't have slider names memorized) 3rd highest setting... We started with 7 people. We ended with...4? But, it was awesome that I was the only melee left when we got to Rudalak and I got to tank him. Fun times.
I would submit that, while some of the detractors here have adapted insofar as they have changed the slotting on their powers, they refuse to mentally adapt to the changes. Perhaps I should have been more specific in my use of that term in my prior post. However, I didn't think that it would be necessary, as the reference was fairly obvious.
And yes, Scion...this whole thread, you've been very "Drama Queen"-esque... Righteous indignation towards the changes, coupled with base insults of those who disagree with your stance. Not just you, but many of those who are in agreement with you have been attempting such character, intelligence, and personality assassinations. I could quote them, but they are hardly necessary.
I just find that the atmosphere of this thread is wholely hostile and hardly constructive. It's, mostly, a giant and overexaggerated rant about the changes, especially with terms such as "ruined" (it didn't), "nerfed into non-existence (the aren't), and the like.
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Not once, not twice, but three times...
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A lady?
[color=gold][b][size=5]♪ Sometimes you feel like a Tank, Sometimes you don't! ♪[/size][/color][/b]
[url=http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=114726][color=black][b][size=5]Moon [color=red]Hazard [color=black]Zone![/size][/color][/color][/color][/b][/url]
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Remember, Scion: The alternative to supression is bringing back the across-the-board -ACC for all travel powers, the whining about which was what brought about Supression in the first place. (Per your Sig)
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Simply because one bad idea followed another doesn't mean that we are forever chained to those two bad ideas. There are other alternatives, which have been discussed to no end on these boards.
I suggest one of THOSE is considered. And I suggest that this is not an "A/B" decision.
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As for ED, a number of adjustment suggestions are floating out there, Including my own... so how about coming up with a creative solution to the problem instead of moaning and pining for "the good old days" of 6-mono-slotting?
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't care if we go back to non-ED or go back to non-I5 global nerfs, or just go back halfway on both. My point is that it is TOO MUCH NOW. Honestly, given the choice to stay like this, or go back to I4, bugs and all, I'd take I4. In a snap. So the very activity you are decrying IS, in my opinion, both creative and helpful.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it +
"First, do no harm".
These are good rules to follow in life. Here too. If you kill the patient, it's really not important that you had good intentions. That principle holds at moderate points between "not broken" and "did harm", also.
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Do you REALLY want to find out what a stalker's AS would be like with DOUBLE the damage it does now? (Say hello, one-shot Tanker kills)
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I would love to see a fully buffed out Stalker try to one-shot an I4 inv. tank fully slotted with toggles up.
Or against a regen scrapper
y'know, from back in the day
OR against a controller with tactics and 4 3 PA's and two phantoms all six slotted for acc and damage in some combination currently not possible chasing, and mezzing, the stalker all over the map.
Yeah, I think that'd be cool
But that's NOT what I'm asking for. And if you've READ my posts, you know that.
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I'm not going to use quotes here, because it is unnecessary.
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I agree. No point in trying to disguise pure hyperbole as real argument by documenting who, and what, you are responding to. Just ties you down, when creative writing is so much enjoyable when freed from the constraints of logical argument and relevant rebuttal.
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Scion...Yes, I referred to it as whining.
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And yes, Scion...this whole thread, you've been very "Drama Queen"-esque... Righteous indignation towards the changes, coupled with base insults of those who disagree with your stance. Not just you, but many of those who are in agreement with you have been attempting such character, intelligence, and personality assassinations. I could quote them, but they are hardly necessary.
I just find that the atmosphere of this thread is wholely hostile and hardly constructive. It's, mostly, a giant and overexaggerated rant about the changes, especially with terms such as "ruined" (it didn't), "nerfed into non-existence (the aren't), and the like.
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Thee is no "drama queen" involved in any of this. Your incapacity to refute even the smallest of points in this ongoing debate, openlhy displyed by your refusal to practice enough intellectual rigor even to bother to quote what, precisely, you reference, makes the ad hominem tone and explicitly admitted nature of your "argument" all the more pathetic.
I would say more, but to what? There's no "there" in your post. You like the game. You don't like whining. I'm a whiner. You're not.
Rah.
Sorry, just can't get excited by this. It's not even GOOD trolling. Even your comment about "all through the thread" how I've been negative, simply isn't borne out my the very posts you reference, but won't quote. Like the first onein the thread, where I praise the devs and eat crow over them proving wrong something I had said just the week before.
You ahven't READ the thread. You don't HAVE an argument. You won't IDENTIFY your targets of rebuttal.
And you're not particularly amusing.
Who let this loser into my room?
[ QUOTE ]
heres an interesting question.. instead of complaining about ED, and getting nothing done, why
not accept that ED is in the past, and will likely NEVER be removed as a whole. instead of using
your time, effort, and resoruces to complain about what has happened to you, and why your
min/max toons have seen this GIANT hit in recent days, why not Look to the future, and tell the
devs what you would like to see them add...
Quit fighting the past. if you want to complain about somthing, so it while the patch/update is
still on test, and the decision hasn't been set in stone. giving up on something has no purpose,
but accepting change, and offering suggestions to make the game AS IT IS NOW better would likely
get far better results.
[/ QUOTE ]
Cool. Let's do that. I've got a Concept Hero that was great in Issues 1, 2, 3, and 4, but lost solo-ability in Issue 5 and the reason to exist in Issue 6.
While Issue 5 isn't going away (although it should), the ED changes that affect Sprint, Swift, Hurdle, and Hover shold be looked at.
Here's an example of one of my toons on Protector, currently level 20. I had a concept of a Hero that was really, really fast... but didn't have a "super-speed" power. This Hero would have a cybernetic body, which would be tough, but not "tank"-level, and have no glowing power effects, other than Quick (which looks neat) and possibly glowing attacks.
So I picked Tank AT, Invuln/EM, and tried to make a "Scrapper" out of it.
Weird? Sure. Downright bizarre build. Who roleplays a "6-million-dollar Elf"? I did... until I6.
The only reason that this Hero is still on the server is that I haven't gotten around to deleting her yet. Beating base SuperSpeed with Sprint was great fun, however - as was finding Tech Run-Speed DO's without a tech contact.
This was a viable "Scrank" build, circa issue 4 - able to aid a team and solo a bit:
---------------------------------------------
Exported from Ver: 1.7.5.0 of the CoH_CoV Character Builder
---------------------------------------------
Name: Traffic
Level: 50
Archetype: Tanker
Primary: Invulnerability
Secondary: Energy Melee
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Resist Physical Damage==> DmgRes(1)DmgRes(3)DmgRes(3)DmgRes(11)
01) --> Barrage==> Acc(1)
02) --> Energy Punch==> Acc(2)Dmg(46)Dmg(46)
04) --> Dull Pain==> Heal(4)
06) --> Resist Elements==> DmgRes(6)DmgRes(7)DmgRes(7)DmgRes(19)
08) --> Flurry==> Acc(8)Dmg(37)Dmg(37)Dmg(37)Dmg(43)Dmg(43)
10) --> Combat Jumping==> Jump(10)
12) --> Resist Energies==> DmgRes(12)DmgRes(13)DmgRes(13)DmgRes(23)
14) --> Swift==> Run(14)Run(15)Run(15)Run(17)Run(17)Run(19)
16) --> Hurdle==> Jump(16)
18) --> Health==> Heal(18)Heal(23)Heal(25)Heal(25)Heal(27)Heal(27)
20) --> Stamina==> EndMod(20)EndMod(21)EndMod(21)EndMod(29)EndMod(29)EndMod(31)
22) --> Jump Kick==> Acc(22)Dmg(45)Dmg(46)
24) --> Acrobatics==> EndRdx(24)
26) --> Bone Smasher==> Acc(26)Dmg(45)Dmg(45)
28) --> Aid Other==> IntRdx(28)Rechg(31)Heal(33)Heal(33)Heal(34)Heal(34)
30) --> Aid Self==> IntRdx(30)Rechg(31)Heal(34)Heal(36)Heal(36)Heal(36)
32) --> Resuscitate==> IntRdx(32)Rechg(33)
35) --> Energy Transfer==> Acc(35)Dmg(39)Dmg(39)Dmg(39)Dmg(40)Dmg(40)
38) --> Total Focus==> Acc(38)Dmg(40)Dmg(42)Dmg(42)Dmg(42)Dmg(43)
41) --> Build Up==> Rechg(41)
44) --> Whirling Hands==> Acc(44)
47) --> Hasten==> Rechg(47)Rechg(48)Rechg(48)Rechg(48)Rechg(50)Rechg(50)
49) --> Whirlwind==> EndRdx(49)EndRdx(50)
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Power Quick==> Run(1)Run(5)Run(5)Run(9)Run(9)Run(11)
01) --> Sprint==> Jump(1)
01) --> Brawl==> Acc(1)
02) --> Rest==> Rechg(2)
01) --> Gauntlet==> Empty(1)
---------------------------------------------
Now it can't solo on Heroic... at least, not in the early 20's against Tsoo.
What would fix this situation?
I'm not sure. The passive +Resists in Invulnerability are too low, for starters, and Health can't be 6-slotted any more. 6-slot damage, and play like a "Scrapper"?
No longer possible, and I'm missing the slots to do a lot of single-target damage at my level anyway.
I could, of course, respec into a regular Invuln/EM Tank. This would be completely pointless, as I have five other Tanks that are higher level, two of which are also Invuln/EM.
As far as "Balance" concerns go, I have an observation, and a question.
My observation is: The reason that sets like "Invulnerability" can't be played in different ways, is that there is no reason NOT to take every power. If /Invuln offered decent +Resists and decent +Defenses, then a player taking every power would be too strong, according to people who care about such things.
My Question: How can power-sets be played differently without becoming overpowered if every power is taken? If that question could be answered, then a lot of powers would be allowed to be better, and a lot of "build creativity" would return.
Of course, my personal opinion, as always, is that recent balance changes are akin to killing your pet gerbil with a flamethrower... senseless, yet overdone.
Thanks for reading.
-> Scott.
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
heres an interesting question.. instead of complaining about ED, and getting nothing done, why
not accept that ED is in the past, and will likely NEVER be removed as a whole. instead of using
your time, effort, and resoruces to complain about what has happened to you, and why your
min/max toons have seen this GIANT hit in recent days, why not Look to the future, and tell the
devs what you would like to see them add...
Quit fighting the past. if you want to complain about somthing, so it while the patch/update is
still on test, and the decision hasn't been set in stone. giving up on something has no purpose,
but accepting change, and offering suggestions to make the game AS IT IS NOW better would likely
get far better results.
[/ QUOTE ]
Cool. Let's do that. I've got a Concept Hero that was great in Issues 1, 2, 3, and 4, but lost solo-ability in Issue 5 and the reason to exist in Issue 6.
While Issue 5 isn't going away (although it should), the ED changes that affect Sprint, Swift, Hurdle, and Hover shold be looked at.
Here's an example of one of my toons on Protector, currently level 20. I had a concept of a Hero that was really, really fast... but didn't have a "super-speed" power. This Hero would have a cybernetic body, which would be tough, but not "tank"-level, and have no glowing power effects, other than Quick (which looks neat) and possibly glowing attacks.
So I picked Tank AT, Invuln/EM, and tried to make a "Scrapper" out of it.
Weird? Sure. Downright bizarre build. Who roleplays a "6-million-dollar Elf"? I did... until I6.
The only reason that this Hero is still on the server is that I haven't gotten around to deleting her yet. Beating base SuperSpeed with Sprint was great fun, however - as was finding Tech Run-Speed DO's without a tech contact.
This was a viable "Scrank" build, circa issue 4 - able to aid a team and solo a bit:
---------------------------------------------
Exported from Ver: 1.7.5.0 of the CoH_CoV Character Builder
---------------------------------------------
Name: Traffic
Level: 50
Archetype: Tanker
Primary: Invulnerability
Secondary: Energy Melee
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Resist Physical Damage==> DmgRes(1)DmgRes(3)DmgRes(3)DmgRes(11)
01) --> Barrage==> Acc(1)
02) --> Energy Punch==> Acc(2)Dmg(46)Dmg(46)
04) --> Dull Pain==> Heal(4)
06) --> Resist Elements==> DmgRes(6)DmgRes(7)DmgRes(7)DmgRes(19)
08) --> Flurry==> Acc(8)Dmg(37)Dmg(37)Dmg(37)Dmg(43)Dmg(43)
10) --> Combat Jumping==> Jump(10)
12) --> Resist Energies==> DmgRes(12)DmgRes(13)DmgRes(13)DmgRes(23)
14) --> Swift==> Run(14)Run(15)Run(15)Run(17)Run(17)Run(19)
16) --> Hurdle==> Jump(16)
18) --> Health==> Heal(18)Heal(23)Heal(25)Heal(25)Heal(27)Heal(27)
20) --> Stamina==> EndMod(20)EndMod(21)EndMod(21)EndMod(29)EndMod(29)EndMod(31)
22) --> Jump Kick==> Acc(22)Dmg(45)Dmg(46)
24) --> Acrobatics==> EndRdx(24)
26) --> Bone Smasher==> Acc(26)Dmg(45)Dmg(45)
28) --> Aid Other==> IntRdx(28)Rechg(31)Heal(33)Heal(33)Heal(34)Heal(34)
30) --> Aid Self==> IntRdx(30)Rechg(31)Heal(34)Heal(36)Heal(36)Heal(36)
32) --> Resuscitate==> IntRdx(32)Rechg(33)
35) --> Energy Transfer==> Acc(35)Dmg(39)Dmg(39)Dmg(39)Dmg(40)Dmg(40)
38) --> Total Focus==> Acc(38)Dmg(40)Dmg(42)Dmg(42)Dmg(42)Dmg(43)
41) --> Build Up==> Rechg(41)
44) --> Whirling Hands==> Acc(44)
47) --> Hasten==> Rechg(47)Rechg(48)Rechg(48)Rechg(48)Rechg(50)Rechg(50)
49) --> Whirlwind==> EndRdx(49)EndRdx(50)
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Power Quick==> Run(1)Run(5)Run(5)Run(9)Run(9)Run(11)
01) --> Sprint==> Jump(1)
01) --> Brawl==> Acc(1)
02) --> Rest==> Rechg(2)
01) --> Gauntlet==> Empty(1)
---------------------------------------------
Now it can't solo on Heroic... at least, not in the early 20's against Tsoo.
What would fix this situation?
[/ QUOTE ]
One word: Invincibility.
This character reminds me of the old joke from the early beta-days of COH, concerning what-if-the-superfriends-were-in-COH:
(Wonder-Woman (Inv/SS), to hawk-girl (Inv/Mace)): Listen, miss "I didn't take any toggles so I could swing my mace more", the only reason we bring you along is so the one hit that takes you out isn't swinging at one of us.
In other words, drop Swift (basically useless to your build, Superspeed caps out at 3 SOs anyway) lose the jumping pool ( you're a speedster, not a jumper) and get Unyeilding, Invincibility, Super Running and Temp Invulnerability instead.
I have a VERY similar build (with the exception that I went with jumping instead of superspeed, and actually GOT my defense toggles) and I have no difficulty whatever soloing Invincible DE missions. You would lose ONE attack power (Jump kick, which is slow animation and lowish damage anyway) and be LOTS more durable.
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I'm not sure. The passive +Resists in Invulnerability are too low, for starters, and Health can't be 6-slotted any more. 6-slot damage, and play like a "Scrapper"?
No longer possible, and I'm missing the slots to do a lot of single-target damage at my level anyway.
I could, of course, respec into a regular Invuln/EM Tank. This would be completely pointless, as I have five other Tanks that are higher level, two of which are also Invuln/EM.
[/ QUOTE ]
You have five Inv/Em tankers ABOVE level 50? ...er suuuuuure you do. Or are the stats quoted for your Final Planned Build of a lower level tanker?
If your tanker is only level 20, then you're not much above the usual Takeoff Point for Inv tankers.
[ QUOTE ]
As far as "Balance" concerns go, I have an observation, and a question.
My observation is: The reason that sets like "Invulnerability" can't be played in different ways, is that there is no reason NOT to take every power. If /Invuln offered decent +Resists and decent +Defenses, then a player taking every power would be too strong, according to people who care about such things.
My Question: How can power-sets be played differently without becoming overpowered if every power is taken? If that question could be answered, then a lot of powers would be allowed to be better, and a lot of "build creativity" would return.
Of course, my personal opinion, as always, is that recent balance changes are akin to killing your pet gerbil with a flamethrower... senseless, yet overdone.
Thanks for reading.
-> Scott.
[/ QUOTE ]
You want to talk Overdone? Taking 3 tankers with the same powersets is overdone. There are SO many options to play with, why are you shackelling yourself to the exact same build for 3 out of your 5 tankers?
lemme guess...the other two are Ice/Ice and Fire/Fire?
The Optimist says the glass is half full.
The Pessimist says the glass is half empty.
While they argue about it, the Opportunist comes along, drinks what's left, and removes all doubt. - Redwood
Alvays remember, schmot guy...any plan vere you lose you hat...is a BAD PLAN!
[ QUOTE ]
You want to talk Overdone? Taking 3 tankers with the same powersets is overdone. There are SO many options to play with, why are you shackelling yourself to the exact same build for 3 out of your 5 tankers?
lemme guess...the other two are Ice/Ice and Fire/Fire?
[/ QUOTE ]
See, why do you even CARE what his motivations are behind what is obviously one his favorite powersets? What possible relevance could that have to the discussion? If anything, it means that he has a LOT of experience in that AT, and even more in that powerset, and might have SOME idea what he's doing. As opposed to YOU, who are just trying to denigrate him ON THE BASIS OF WHAT KIND OF SUPERHERO HE WANTS TO PRETEND TO BE.
Good CHRIST. I haven't seen that since, like, 2nd grade,
"Why would you want to be BATMAN?? He SUCKS!!"
C'mon, you've GOT to be able to do better than that!
One word on that concept build - slot Dull pain 3 heal 3 recharge.
Check for Tom's posts in the Tanker Forums about Nat Oggles (a No toggle tank)
That one change should make you viable again (at least until the mid 30's or so anyway)
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You want to talk Overdone? Taking 3 tankers with the same powersets is overdone. There are SO many options to play with, why are you shackelling yourself to the exact same build for 3 out of your 5 tankers?
lemme guess...the other two are Ice/Ice and Fire/Fire?
[/ QUOTE ]
See, why do you even CARE what his motivations are behind what is obviously one his favorite powersets? What possible relevance could that have to the discussion? If anything, it means that he has a LOT of experience in that AT, and even more in that powerset, and might have SOME idea what he's doing. As opposed to YOU, who are just trying to denigrate him ON THE BASIS OF WHAT KIND OF SUPERHERO HE WANTS TO PRETEND TO BE.
Good CHRIST. I haven't seen that since, like, 2nd grade,
"Why would you want to be BATMAN?? He SUCKS!!"
C'mon, you've GOT to be able to do better than that!
[/ QUOTE ]
Man, if only Conclusion Jumping were an olympic sport, you'd be a gold-medaller.
What I'm saying is, he's been playing in that particular kiddie pool quite a bit. I myself have a minimum of one tanker on every single server, and NO TWO of them have the same powersets, and every single one of them will, by level 22, be able to solo invincible missions. So, by your own argument, I have far MORE experience than he does with that particular AT (His 5 tanks versus my 11+, my 11+ different powerset combos versus his 2 or 3)
And I said no such thing about Batman...if he's going for a specific character feel, thats just fine by me...but with respecs, and the tons and tons of options out there, plus the ability to copy a character to the test server over and over again to try out different respec options, I just don't see the attraction of having 3 tankers whose only difference is what power pools they get and whether or not they got their defensive toggles, with perhaps the sole possibility that they are the SAME character on three different servers.
Being a severe Altoholic, I've found that mixing and matching powersets to see what you can do with different combinations is half the fun of the game.
Nice attempt at troll bait, tho.
The Optimist says the glass is half full.
The Pessimist says the glass is half empty.
While they argue about it, the Opportunist comes along, drinks what's left, and removes all doubt. - Redwood
Alvays remember, schmot guy...any plan vere you lose you hat...is a BAD PLAN!
[ QUOTE ]
Here's an example of one of my toons on Protector, currently level 20. I had a concept of a Hero that was really, really fast... but didn't have a "super-speed" power. This Hero would have a cybernetic body, which would be tough, but not "tank"-level, and have no glowing power effects , other than Quick (which looks neat) and possibly glowing attacks.
[/ QUOTE ]
Redwood read his post and his take on this character. Pay particular attention to the bold italics part. I think the word your looking for is, read.
[ QUOTE ]
Being a severe Altoholic, I've found that mixing and matching powersets to see what you can do with different combinations is half the fun of the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
For you.
Hey, no offense, I agree with your points, I have so many alts I should be in therapy, but the way you and I enjoy the game does not mean we should be able to dictate how someone else enjoys it.
I think that is the crux of every argument on these boards: Different groups of people enjoy playing in different ways, and when the different play styles of one group are perceived bas being distasteful, for whatever reason, by another group, complaints get lodged, a chorus is raised for change, and occasionally the Devs enact such change.
And that is EXACTLY what the Devs are doing WRONG.
I don't give a hoot in Hell if some clown wants to create an utterly unbeatable Tanker or a Blaster who can attack from beyond the Horizon or a Stalker who can take three Sniper shots without dying (and that last one I have seen), because I don't HAVE to play WITH them or AGAINST them.
If they make a character who is ridiculously easy to level, so what? SO WHAT? For them that sort of munchkin'ing IS THE GAME. The beauty of THIS game is that it's not like this person is in my Friday night game group and I can't escape them. I can "/ignore" them and it's like they fell off the face of the planet.
If I want to commit to PvP, I can respec my characters to be more effective in that soert of environment. Indeed, I know people with characters who claim they are worthless for anything BUT PvP. Not my bag, but then again, it's not my decision as to how they play their characters.
I posted a thread a while back called "Why?". Don't bother looking for it, I am pretty sure it has since been suppressed. But it posed a very simple question:
"Why do players feel they have the right to dictate how other players should be able to play the characters in a game which they pay for, when there is NO requirement that any player interact with another player whom they find offensive?"
Because that's what ED and Travel Power Suppression come down to: Opinions voiced by some players are taken as development guidelines by the Devs, despite the fact that the results are not simply unfair and offensive to many other players, but indeed are often completely at odds wioth the comic book genre the game is supposed to be simulating.
Those who are negatively impacted by these changes try to voice our objections and are dimissed as "whiners" or simply ignored, and the abuses continnue to mount. We are offered no redress, no alternative, and indeed on the subject of Travel Power Suppression, neither the Devs nor the designer even acknowledge the issue any more, expecting it or us to eventually go away.
Hence my commitment to refer to the game's symbolic leader as "Tyrant", which is exactly how his alter-ego is behaving.
A tryrant he is, and Tyrant he will remain, until he Gets It.
Travel Power Suppression is a bad idea. It has to go.
Dasher (my Archetype is SUPER SPEEDSTER)
HELP SAVE THIS GAME!
If we can save this game, I promise I will never complain about Travel Power Suppression again! You have my word on it!
"The customer is always right."
Okay, I can understand your desire to want to play the game your own way. No one is stopping you from doing that. The rules of the game changed to make it more balanced. Deal with the rules set before you. If a GM in a tabletop makes a rules call are you going to argue all night with them because you don't like the rule? Or are you going to continue playing and let it be.
Cryptic makes the rules. We play their game. We spend our money to play the game they created. If you call Statesman a Tyrant because he does something you don't like, you might was well call everyone a tyrant that has ever told you "no".
You are calling for them to change back their decision on making travel powers suppresed when fighting something. How does that accomplish anything? If you were to keep your super speed and be able to just run through groups hitting things without any way for them to retaliate, then how does that make the game challenging? If you want risk free attacking whats the point in playing? You might as well just ask them to make you level 50 so you can just run around at super speeds and take anything down you like.
Its pretty simple in my eyes. They saw something that made the game, both PvE and PvP, less challenging or too overpowered in the case of PvP. I think you are forgetting one thing here, online game. This is not a table top, there is no GM sitting behind a GM screen saying yes or no to an action. You have a clearly defined set of rules that requires artificial intelligence to react to your actions, when you run in, use a strike, and then scoot out of there the AI isn't smart enough to understand that you are using hit and run tactics. If you were doing that to a player, who says that the player is not playing on a slow connection and cannot keep up with you because everytime he tries to hit your already out of range. In both cases you are either forcing the AI to play to your gamestyle, which is cannot or forcing the player to have to upgrade his computer just to be able to compete in PvP. That's why they call it balance. If the rules are too skewed in one way or the other, they try to give it a middle ground so that ALL can play, not just you.
Edit: By the way, there is no archetype called Super Speedster that I'm aware of. You can sure roleplay that you are a super fast super speedster, but you are still only a Scrapper, Tanker, Blaster, Defender, Controller, Warshade, or Peacebringer. I respect the fact that you are trying to play something different, but it doesn't exist in the rules.
Umbrascarred
Virtue
Huzza!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's an example of one of my toons on Protector, currently level 20. I had a concept of a Hero that was really, really fast... but didn't have a "super-speed" power. This Hero would have a cybernetic body, which would be tough, but not "tank"-level, and have no glowing power effects , other than Quick (which looks neat) and possibly glowing attacks.
[/ QUOTE ]
Redwood read his post and his take on this character. Pay particular attention to the bold italics part. I think the word your looking for is, read.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well he also said he was making a tanker INTO a scrapper...which is a real tough row to hoe anyways...an interesting idea, but Tankers just can't get the DPS that high. Now, a Regen based scrapper wouldn't have all that many glow effects (and note that he at least took the self heal, so it's long duration toggles he objects to...and he took COmbat Jumping, which has that ring-effect...)
He could always turn his power graphics off and just pretend he doesn't glow like a neon sign, of course 
If I was trying something like this I would make it on a scrapper base (at least there, you get crits and a high DPS), probably Inv/Dark or regen/dark (Dark's attacks are at least punchlike, and Darkness isn't (exactly) a glow effect.
The Optimist says the glass is half full.
The Pessimist says the glass is half empty.
While they argue about it, the Opportunist comes along, drinks what's left, and removes all doubt. - Redwood
Alvays remember, schmot guy...any plan vere you lose you hat...is a BAD PLAN!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
WOW!! OMG!!! YOUARETEHBEST!!!
Not really. ED still sucks. Supression still sucks. PvP is still awful compared to the other PvP choices out there(5 million customers=doing something right). The game is awful compared to I2-I3. Almost all the people I enjoyed playing the game with have left for greener pastures, and all you can do is give out more nerfs? Yes, you did undo this nerf, but not entirely. You still are going to introduce it again, just in a different way. There is no reason to play a superhero game where you feel more like a minion than a hero.
[/ QUOTE ]Attention customer:
Piss in someone else's Cheerios. That is all.
[/ QUOTE ]
GOtta say, i agree, not to the same extent, but I think ED is miserable. Now, I can understand wanting to discourage "cookie-cutter" builds, but i think this particular method is a poor one. Perhaps, a less steep fall off curve after the third enhancement. I very, very rarely play my SR scrapper anymore, due to ED. My lower level characters were really made post ED, so it hasn't majorly affected them. But, ED is a major factor in my choices of power sets. Having dispensed my opinion, i expect ti to have no effect at all on the game. But i wanted to put at least one calm anti-ED post in. too many hysterical rants, you know?
Cheer GunBunny
Pinnacle Resident Cheerleader With The Biggest Gun.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's an example of one of my toons on Protector, currently level 20. I had a concept of a Hero that was really, really fast... but didn't have a "super-speed" power. This Hero would have a cybernetic body, which would be tough, but not "tank"-level, and have no glowing power effects , other than Quick (which looks neat) and possibly glowing attacks.
[/ QUOTE ]
Redwood read his post and his take on this character. Pay particular attention to the bold italics part. I think the word your looking for is, read.
[/ QUOTE ]
Quite Right. I too find certain special effects to be annoying and distasteful and will not play an AT simply for that reason. Normally I hate the Ice and Stone SFX. Why make a nice costume and end up looking like a Devouring Earth or an Ice Cube? Ick! I have played a couple fire Tank/Brutes but again, I find the degree of SFX to be distasteful not to mention having some of my best attacks being done in ways that don't match my concept. I hate Fire Breath and Fire Sword. I am an old time Champions RPG player and SFX and Concept still means something to me.
When you look at Tanks and so want something without that "Glowie Crap" you find yourself severly limited. Invuln is it for Primary and Super-Strength or EM for Secondary. Gets old fast.
I did finally give in and Tried an Invuln/Axe Tanker but have major misgivings. Not only is the End Use horrendous but the Axe attacks KNOCK-BACK the foes all ove the place and I waste too much time chasing them and knocking them INTO other Mobs.
Allow me to also comment on an earlier point made that I find very good. To be a good Tanker or Scrapper you MUST take MOST if not all of the Powers offered in the Primary or Secondary Pools. You can not be creative like other ATs and add Team Useful powers like Recall Friend, Leadership, Stealth, etc. I have TRIED and always it came down to the point where everything was so Min/Maxed that I couldn't SURVIVE on a team without XXX Power and replace it with a CUSTOM or FUN Power.
I am sad that CoH went with the boilder-plate design rules it did. As I said, I am a Champions RPG player and am used to being able to Customize and Role-Play everything. If having too many Defensive powers is a Problem (as seems to be by the recent Nerf Wars) I wish they would add some option that would allow you to choose a maximum number of Defensive Powers and STILL have room for a selection of FUN, CREATIVE, TEAM-USEFUL or CONCEPT Powers without being a joke. Having too many Offensive powers would not be a problem, after all you can only use so many attacks in a Chain but having part of your build be CONCEPT would be terrific!
[ QUOTE ]
Normally I hate the Ice and Stone SFX. Why make a nice costume and end up looking like a Devouring Earth or an Ice Cube? Ick
[/ QUOTE ]Preach it!!
<.<
>.>
ahem... sorry about that, just had to agree. I have a Stone Tank, and wish there was a way I could personalize that to just look like the original stone armor you get (concept toon of an ex-outcast brick turned into a werewolf-thing and became a hero)
Please return to your regularly scheduled thread, thank you. 
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Normally I hate the Ice and Stone SFX. Why make a nice costume and end up looking like a Devouring Earth or an Ice Cube? Ick
[/ QUOTE ]Preach it!!
<.<
>.>
ahem... sorry about that, just had to agree. I have a Stone Tank, and wish there was a way I could personalize that to just look like the original stone armor you get (concept toon of an ex-outcast brick turned into a werewolf-thing and became a hero)
Please return to your regularly scheduled thread, thank you.
[/ QUOTE ]
You think Stone is bad NOW? At least you're no longer a walking poo.
The Optimist says the glass is half full.
The Pessimist says the glass is half empty.
While they argue about it, the Opportunist comes along, drinks what's left, and removes all doubt. - Redwood
Alvays remember, schmot guy...any plan vere you lose you hat...is a BAD PLAN!
[ QUOTE ]
heres an interesting question.. instead of complaining about ED, and getting nothing done, why not accept that ED is in the past, and will likely NEVER be removed as a whole. instead of using your time, effort, and resoruces to complain about what has happened to you, and why your min/max toons have seen this GIANT hit in recent days, why not Look to the future, and tell the devs what you would like to see them add...
[/ QUOTE ]
Some of this is fair comment, in that constructive criticism is the best way forward, but I just can't see that there is a constructive way forward here. The devs have decided that min/max builds are overpowered, so what did many of the people who didn't feel challenged do ? They built sub-optimal toons and had fun with them.
The min/maxers will survive and adapt, it's the casual players that make concept builds (akin to the sub optimal ones the min maxers built) that these changes have nerfed out of existence.
I have some of both type of toons, and am finding that it's not possible now to make wacky concept designs that were 10-15% worse than the power build and still have them playable like they were before. This to me is a big downside, and I've retired a 41 and a 50 because of it. (Check my old posts if you want to see the details, I'm not going to repost)
I just find that I5/I6 has sucked an awful lot of fun and diversity out of the game, just one example, my 50 stone/axe tank who I've adapted to the changing circumstances:
is just as good in a fight as he was before, if not better as I've had to be more creative to get something that works.
BUT
has his entire team waiting for him as he can't sensibly more than 3 slot swift as he did before (yes I could turn granite armor off, but it has a long recharge and I can't afford to slot it for recharge)
can't exemplar (which I used to do a lot with friends) as the build doesn't work between about levels 6 and 49 due to having to take some key defences and taunt (as it doesn't require much slotting) in the 40s
doesn't have the option of playing without granite armor as the lower defences are just too weak now, and needing weave (defence nerfs) and a ridiculous number of attacks (ED nerfing hasten combined with the granite armor -recharge) means I don't have the power slots available to buy them anyway
I basically find myself playing pretty much exclusively CoV now as so many of my CoH toons are shadows of their former selves, and I still haven't done some of the 25+ respecs ED made me need to do. (10-15 toons, but needed to do some of them several times to get them right on test). CoV seems to work fine with ED, although it seems there's a much greater imbalance between the ATs (my SG has 15 toons above 27, all but one dom are MMs and corruptors, this could have something to do with the fact that none of us PvP).
Mr Minotaur 50 stone/axe tank Freedom
TheoPWildebeest 41 nrg/nrg blaster Freedom (retd)
Toxic Texan 50 DM/regen scrapper Infinity (retd)
Black Hole Sun 40 dark/thermal Corruptor Protector
Napalm Natasha 39 Fire/dark Corruptor Protector
and 70+ others
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba