Not once, not twice, but three times...
By
008Zulu,
Posted on: 2006-01-10 16:26 in Developers' Corner
Mad props to the devs for this.
(I know some people will complain incessantly about everything and just shrug and say "good, for once" when a change goes the way they asked for, so I figured I should give some mad props where they're due.)
(I'm not quite sure what you'd want to do with insane mock-ups of various objects, but I like the sound of the phrase. "Mad props". Just from the sound of it, you know it's got to mean something good.)
Character index
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Y'know, at first I thought it was kinda sickening the way people are falling all over themselves with joy over this. After all, none of these are really that big of a deal. Yeah, the AV one is great for soloers, but getting AV teams was never really that tough. GOOD AV teams? A bit tougher, I admit, but hardly impossible.
But these are certainly not worth offering one's firstborn for...
But then it occurred to me that maybe this just shows how starved for something positive the players of this game really are. These reactions are not unlike giving food to a starving man, or water to someone that has just walked across a desert. Maybe you should take this as a sign to give some positive changes to this community rather than nerf on top of nerf.
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While I'd be happy if the developers do see the joy that improvements can bring 
it is a big deal for those who like to solo. First, most soloers like to be following the story line, and having to shelve the story as you get a team together is the biggest annoyance around.
(Although, given that they'll have the same powers, many of the EBs may still need teams of three or four. I'm particularly thinking of Madame of Mystery with her insane regen ability, which may only be duoable if one of the duo is a rad defender or controller.)
This has been the holy grail for the soloers. I think you'll see a similar reaction when automatic completion of simultaneous missions hits CoH, only muted because they know it's coming and this was a huge surprise.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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But then it occurred to me that maybe this just shows how starved for something positive the players of this game really are. These reactions are not unlike giving food to a starving man, or water to someone that has just walked across a desert.
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Not really. It's just that this particular change - replacing AVs with Elite Bosses under certain circumstances - addresses two of the oldest and most galling problems with the game, namely the Forced To Team feeling coupled with the Can't Progress feeling.
AVs are SUPPOSED to be a major, entertaining challenge; as it is, they're more likely to be a frustrating roadblock. You can't tackle them on your own (with certain special exceptions) and you have to go through the hassle of recruiting a team to deal with them. Otherwise, no more missions from that contact. That has been the case practically since day one here.
When several Elite Bosses were turned into AVs over in CoV, there was much moaning and gnashing of teeth for exactly this reason. Elite Bosses were how a lot of us felt AV fights should be - hard to tackle but not impossible; now they were team-needing roadblocks.
So, it's not that this is a scrap of something nice tossed to the starving, it's a very sweet fix for an old, aggravating problem.
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That sounds like a smart implementation, but when you say an Elite Boss, I hope you don't mean that the AV will spawn as an Elite Boss.
AVs are supposed to be special. I would prefer that when my group size is too small, etc. that they AV not be in the mission, but at least I got one of the factiosn bosses.
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Elite Bosses are supposed to be special too. With the exception of Longbow Balistas, every Elite Boss is a unique individual.
In the comics, ArchVillain is the mover behind plots that bedevil heroes. Some of the more interesting ArchVillains are fairly weak in combat. The trick is getting to the ArchVillain, and when you get to the AV wondering what traps he has prepared, or "OK, GenericHero, you're going to have to choose...take me in or rescue Linda Lovely who is being lowered into a shark tank in Paris".
In CoX, ArchVillain (or Hero) is a power rating. I still believe Countess Crey should never have been ArchVillain, should always have been an EB, even though her right-hand man Hopkins should be an AV based on his storyline.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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go read the "marked glowes thread" wthat stated the steath outcry
one of the most common respodendes was "Watch the devs post how their going to lesten it to suppression and give us the old bait and switch 'see we do listen toyou its just going to be suppression now"
and what has happened now
"we heard your crises and are making it suppression instead'
predicted to the letter
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Actually, what States said was (somewhat paraphrasing, don't have it handy),
"You brought up good points, we're pulling back this change, Suppression sounds good but will take time."
As one of those predicting a bait and switch, I was certain they had suppression waiting in the wings and would roll it out immediately. Given that it's not ready for immediate roll out, that seems to argue against a deliberate plot.
And...they've shown a willingness to listen. This change got yanked because people rationally made the case of why it was bad. You don't want suppression? (I don't). Make the case of why it is bad.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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Why else would a boss' pistol do so much more damage than a minion's?
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The boss has better aim, more skill with handling a pistol, and/or more modifications to his firearm (Both legal and illegal)
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Classically it's the D&D axiom of Armor Class and Hit Points. Your larger number of hit points as you go up in level does not reflect anctual increased health, but rather a numerical way to represent the fact that a cut by a sword at level 1 is deep (1-8 out of 10 HP for example) while that same 1-8 on someone level 10 (say 100 hp for arguement sake) is a nick. It simulated the fact that their skill has alowed them to avoid a mortal blow . . . you know the skilled swordsman fighting the other skilled swordsman slowly wearing thir foe down. It's not that the Bosses pistol does more actual damage (i.e. the bullet explodes vice simply penetrates skin) it's just that he is skilled enough with it to hit you center mass vice the bullet grazing you. Its the only way to keep level 1 minions from one shotting a level 50 on a pure luck shot because a bullet in the forehead will kill you no matter how strong you are.
I know, too many years playing pen and paper RPG's 
High Beam - 50 Blaster Energy/Ice - 1228 Badges
Munitions Mistress - 50 Mercs/Traps
Many Other 50's, Too Many Alts, All On Freedom
Just Because You Can, Doesn't Mean You Should!
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one of the most common respodendes was "Watch the devs post how their going to lesten it to suppression and give us the old bait and switch 'see we do listen toyou its just going to be suppression now"
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The Devs haven't said that. States LIKES the suppression idea, which was suggested here.
What the players need to do, IMO, is address the problem rather than the solution. If a stalker (for example) can whiz through a mission, click all the glowies and thus finish it without once facing a risk, is this a problem?
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one of the most common respodendes was "Watch the devs post how their going to lesten it to suppression and give us the old bait and switch 'see we do listen toyou its just going to be suppression now"
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The Devs haven't said that. States LIKES the suppression idea, which was suggested here.
What the players need to do, IMO, is address the problem rather than the solution. If a stalker (for example) can whiz through a mission, click all the glowies and thus finish it without once facing a risk, is this a problem?
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Exactly. My arguement would be that, with my Masterminds, I can work through the same mission without really much more risk. Yes, it will take longer, but I'll get a lot more reward from it.
In the next mission, which is "defeat all", my Mastermind will be at far more risk than the stalker and be done far faster than the stalker. So it all balances out.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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And to Scion.....My tanker is 100% Female, so you can keep those "balls" and give them to someone else who wants 'em.
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So you're saying your female tanker doesn't LIKE balls, huh? Sounds like you're playing an "alternative" type character.
However, if it makes you happy...
How bout we sew the breasts back on the inv/tankers now?
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Classically it's the D&D axiom of Armor Class and Hit Points. Your larger number of hit points as you go up in level does not reflect anctual increased health, but rather a numerical way to represent the fact that a cut by a sword at level 1 is deep (1-8 out of 10 HP for example) while that same 1-8 on someone level 10 (say 100 hp for arguement sake) is a nick. It simulated the fact that their skill has alowed them to avoid a mortal blow . . . you know the skilled swordsman fighting the other skilled swordsman slowly wearing thir foe down. It's not that the Bosses pistol does more actual damage (i.e. the bullet explodes vice simply penetrates skin) it's just that he is skilled enough with it to hit you center mass vice the bullet grazing you. Its the only way to keep level 1 minions from one shotting a level 50 on a pure luck shot because a bullet in the forehead will kill you no matter how strong you are.
I know, too many years playing pen and paper RPG's
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Again, that's a dramatic contrivance so that people of heroic stature don't get wiped out by peons. It's not a realistic presentation of combat.
I mean, I really don't care how skilled you are, your .44 bullets are not going to hit 10x harder than someone else's .44 bullets.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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First...I confirm that we're working on right now (as in pohsyb in the next room) to add CoV costume parts into CoH if you own both games....
Then we repeal the hated stealth nerf. The reason why: many well reasoned posts. It's that simple. You guys pointed out the problems.
AND now...we're changing the way Archvillains spawn. A ton of forum goers disliked adding so many AV's into missions a while back...so we've come up with a solution. If the team size and mission difficulty are ABOVE a certain level, an Archvillain spawns. Below that, players will face only an Elite Boss. If the mission is set on the first two levels of difficulty, it takes 4 heroes or more to spawn an Arch Villain. On the third level, 3 heroes or more. On the fourth level, 2 heroes. On the highest (Invincible), a solo hero will spawn an AV. Note this works in BOTH City of Heroes and Villains.
In order to incentivize larger teams, Positron is going to add a bonus to AV rewards!
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YES! Huzzah! I uh...<.< >.> take back most of the foul things I said about you Jack. No more AVs making a roadblock in my progress! *goes off to form a parade*
Underlying concept good - from the description, though, it will mess up a lot of folk in game, though.
Really going to mess up the Praetorian arc.
Thank you for the all the changes, especially for the AV/Hero one. 
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This means no suppression either, right? That would incur most of the same problems the original nerf brought, so I hope we're sticking with stealth as-is.
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If you read Statesman's comment on it, yes supression of stealth will be coming in a future patch. They will be pulling the current method so they can code supression in.
Its only being pulled because otherwise idiots would use group and castable invisibility abilities to grief and harass players.
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Oh okay, so it's just the usual bait-and-switch that comes like clockwork. Suppression still brings in a huge host of QOL problems and is as bafflingly asinine as the previous idea. They may as well just change the power name to "kinda sneaky...sometimes".
Well, so much for boosting my expectations.
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It still hasn't changed the fact that there *are* exploits that they have to block off. Their first iteration didn't take into account stealth powers you couldn't turn off.
There is nothing wrong with being able to steal past *most* of the combat, but CoX is still mostly a combat sim. As the exploit was massive XP for just clicking on glowies with *no* danger, suppression is a fine compromise.
So no more level 2 guys running through a mission and gaining two levels. Which doesn't hurt my feelings.
Still here, even after all this time!
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one of the most common respodendes was "Watch the devs post how their going to lesten it to suppression and give us the old bait and switch 'see we do listen toyou its just going to be suppression now"
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The Devs haven't said that. States LIKES the suppression idea, which was suggested here.
What the players need to do, IMO, is address the problem rather than the solution. If a stalker (for example) can whiz through a mission, click all the glowies and thus finish it without once facing a risk, is this a problem?
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This would be a "yes" as there is no risk for the reward, and can be exploited with massive XP bonuses for end mission rewards.
Still here, even after all this time!
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First...I confirm that we're working on right now (as in pohsyb in the next room) to add CoV costume parts into CoH if you own both games....
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Darn. 
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Then we repeal the hated stealth nerf. The reason why: many well reasoned posts. It's that simple. You guys pointed out the problems.
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Never again let it be said that the Dev team doesn't listen.
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AND now...we're changing the way Archvillains spawn. A ton of forum goers disliked adding so many AV's into missions a while back...so we've come up with a solution. If the team size and mission difficulty are ABOVE a certain level, an Archvillain spawns. Below that, players will face only an Elite Boss. If the mission is set on the first two levels of difficulty, it takes 4 heroes or more to spawn an Arch Villain. On the third level, 3 heroes or more. On the fourth level, 2 heroes. On the highest (Invincible), a solo hero will spawn an AV. Note this works in BOTH City of Heroes and Villains.
In order to incentivize larger teams, Positron is going to add a bonus to AV rewards!
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How will this affect the AV portal missions, specifically, the ones required for Portal Jockey and Statesman's Pal? Will Neuron the Elite Boss, still count as defeating Neuron the AV?
@bpphantom
The Defenders of Paragon
KGB Special Section 8
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one of the most common respodendes was "Watch the devs post how their going to lesten it to suppression and give us the old bait and switch 'see we do listen toyou its just going to be suppression now"
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The Devs haven't said that. States LIKES the suppression idea, which was suggested here.
What the players need to do, IMO, is address the problem rather than the solution. If a stalker (for example) can whiz through a mission, click all the glowies and thus finish it without once facing a risk, is this a problem?
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This would be a "yes" as there is no risk for the reward, and can be exploited with massive XP bonuses for end mission rewards.
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Given that (a) they have given up any XP for the opponents defeated, (b) the number of missions where you can complete the mission by only clicking glowies is limited, and (c) most of those who like to do this are running characters where defeat all missions take longer and represent higher risk than those who go through missions leaving a wake of defeated foes as they move towards the glowies, I'd say No. At most, it balances things out.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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Given that (a) they have given up any XP for the opponents defeated, (b) the number of missions where you can complete the mission by only clicking glowies is limited, and (c) most of those who like to do this are running characters where defeat all missions take longer and represent higher risk than those who go through missions leaving a wake of defeated foes as they move towards the glowies, I'd say No. At most, it balances things out.
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Any time you use "most" in a situation with exploit, someone will turn it to "always abused". That's why exploit have to be blocked, so you don't get super-powerleveled-from-glowies-in-one-day problems.
It's not like Stalkers aren't supposed to use their stealth *for* combat purposes!
Still here, even after all this time!
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I see NOTHING in this post stating they are gonna go with suppression of stealth idea. Where was that posted?
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Has the stealth suppression gone through? Or is everybody just speculating?
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Here when he said:
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We're going to be taking out this "stealth nerf" or "nerf to stealth" or whatever...
The original intent was to prevent riskless XP gain...but I agree that the implementation caused problems as noted here on the forums.
I REALLY like the Suppression idea brought up, but that'll take some time to implement. So we're just going to take it out until we can do it right.
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Stalkers can use their stealth on one opponent per spawn (assuming that they never have to fight more than one spawn at a time). They then must pause between spawns so stealth suppression expires. (Devs, while you're listening, any chance stealth suppression could be cut to the length of travel speed suppression?). That makes defeat all missions slow slogging.
Power levelling uses farming, doing the same thing over and over, the lather rinse repeat. There simply aren't enough "click glowies to complete" missions to powerlevel. (Yes, there are some quirks that need closing, but suppression of stealth is required to do so.)
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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Any time you use "most" in a situation with exploit, someone will turn it to "always abused".
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But part of what makes an exploit an exploit is repeatability. If we're talking mission complete XP here, how is that exploitable? Once you've finished the mission, you can't go back and do it again.
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Nice change. Since I've been [censored] about use of development time with regards to the stealth change, this AV change is what I call a great use of development time.
And a question for Positron. Whats a World Spawn?
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A World Spawn is a spawn that takes place in the game-world, not in an instanced mission.
The Hamidon Mitochondria are an example of an Arch-villain World Spawn, and thus will not be reduced in any way by this change.
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since "Hami" is the only AV word spawn in the game, why not just specifically say Hami......
unless in Issue 7 we will see a Hami type villain for CoV?
Pos did you just spill the beans?
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since "Hami" is the only AV word spawn in the game, why not just specifically say Hami......
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It's all the mitos, too. And...
*cough* caleb *cough*
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First...I confirm that we're working on right now (as in pohsyb in the next room) to add CoV costume parts into CoH if you own both games....
Then we repeal the hated stealth nerf. The reason why: many well reasoned posts. It's that simple. You guys pointed out the problems.
AND now...we're changing the way Archvillains spawn. A ton of forum goers disliked adding so many AV's into missions a while back...so we've come up with a solution. If the team size and mission difficulty are ABOVE a certain level, an Archvillain spawns. Below that, players will face only an Elite Boss. If the mission is set on the first two levels of difficulty, it takes 4 heroes or more to spawn an Arch Villain. On the third level, 3 heroes or more. On the fourth level, 2 heroes. On the highest (Invincible), a solo hero will spawn an AV. Note this works in BOTH City of Heroes and Villains.
In order to incentivize larger teams, Positron is going to add a bonus to AV rewards!
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Some faith has been restored. Thank you!
i guess my peg-legged radiation defender isn't going to be unique anymore, but i'd rather have more costume options than being the only hero with a pegleg.
as for the not nerfing stealth part, sounds like a eye opener and at the right time as well.
the av thing, even though soloing av's is near impossible (more improbable than impossible, someone may get lucky every once in a while i suppose) the extra bonuses while teamed will be nice, hopefully.
so the only real thing is when u guys update the tailor to add cov costume options to coh, make sure to test out the clipping of the costumes usuing different scaling options because some are messed up right now and thus i cant fit a suit on my tank without him tearing the seems of the coat, or a cape that dips thru the shoulder pads.
otherthan that, i reccomend taking a weekend visiting with your families and then grab a caramel macchaito, and continue working on the fabled end-game content and the thing i've been waiting for since i bought the game, wings, so i can't wait to see these avians. (it would be cool if we could choose between several base avian poweset primaries and then pick any other powerset in the game, so could have like a winged blaster or a winged broadsword, or winged forcefielder or etc. i figure the precedence is allready there for mixing and matching take a look at the majority of the villain AT's)