One shotting has got to end
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2005-12-07 01:38 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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_Castle_ Wrote:
Bingo. This was exactly my point.
PvP is a very fine balance and there are a lot of ways to creatively combine powers for extreme effect. Assassin Attacks, while powerful, are only the most visable (irony?) example. There are others which are worse and whatever solution we come up with for 'The one shot problem' has to address as many variations as we can identify.
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Then let's stop calling it One-Shotting and use the proper Term: Alpha Strikes.
Some Alpha Strikes can't be avoided because they involve Zerging or a Level 32 to 38 "Ultimate" and those powers are already balanced against repeated use. And I don't see why AS can't remain this way too, under the condition that its made a lot more situational in PvP. ...that's the key to AlphaStrikes, is Situational Use. But as long as Stalkers are allowed to use it on a moving target, OR while Double-Stealthed, OR immediately after a Placating; it becomes a staple and cheapens the image of the Stalker in everyone else's eyes.
BEFORE anything is done about Alpha Strikes, Please Please Please address the issue of Situation first, and see how much of the Griping is reduced. Stalkers have a Job to do with their AS. That job is not Constant ganking, but the AlphaStrike should still be an option under very specific situations. For everything else, they still have the tools to zip in undetected and pick off the damaged players. ...which is still a ton of fun to do... My ill/Kin "Stalktroller" does it all the time and lives to tell about it. Everything else can be balanced by Situation as it always has been, as witnessed so many of the changes we've had to adapt to in PvE on every other Archetype in this game.
And thank you Sir, for looking into these matters 
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But as long as Stalkers are allowed to use it on a moving target, OR while Double-Stealthed, OR immediately after a Placating; it becomes a staple and cheapens the image of the Stalker in everyone else's eyes.
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*The Count voice*
One! Two! Three calls for nerfs! Ah ah aaaaaah!
Then by all means Quason... Please elaborate on how it's fair to use those 3 tactics every time they recharge? ...and I've seen how quickly they all recharge.
Better yet, tell me in all honesty that you've only used them occaisionally?
Your holier than thou attitude is finally starting to get on my Nerves, Pal. I'm starting to see you for what you really are, a Minmaxer who just moves from one FotM to the next. They nerfed your ShortCircuit Lockdown "AlphaStrike" and now you've moved onto Stalkers. After that it will be /DA Brutes followed by Ice/Kin corruptors ...round and round we go!
I'm not your "pal". 
And yeah, I use all three of them all the time. I also hospital camp, eat babies, and vote Republican.
Ann Coulter in 2008!!
I'd like to just ask one question. This is for the event that a one shot kill is eliminated.
A player is engaged in a fight, takes a hit of damage and is at 95% full health. If that player is AS'd/sniped/trip mined, and instantly dies, is that still a one shot?
By what seems to be the dev. definition, any instance in which a player can not react/defend themselve from insta-death, is a one shot.
Where do we draw the line here? Should a player who is at 15% and hit by a hidden stalker with a BU+AS not die?
Maybe there is a point behind any AT at FULL health not being able to be one shotted. But the player who is at 75% health (could be from falling off a building, etc) and got hit with a BU+AIM+snipe and died instantly, still had zero chance to react to that attack.
Would people want to get rid of this also?
At what point is it "ok" to one shot (by dev definition) somone?
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_Castle_ Wrote:
Bingo. This was exactly my point.
PvP is a very fine balance and there are a lot of ways to creatively combine powers for extreme effect. Assassin Attacks, while powerful, are only the most visable (irony?) example. There are others which are worse and whatever solution we come up with for 'The one shot problem' has to address as many variations as we can identify.
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Then let's stop calling it One-Shotting and use the proper Term: Alpha Strikes.
Some Alpha Strikes can't be avoided because they involve Zerging or a Level 32 to 38 "Ultimate" and those powers are already balanced against repeated use. And I don't see why AS can't remain this way too, under the condition that its made a lot more situational in PvP. ...that's the key to AlphaStrikes, is Situational Use. But as long as Stalkers are allowed to use it on a moving target, OR while Double-Stealthed, OR immediately after a Placating; it becomes a staple and cheapens the image of the Stalker in everyone else's eyes.
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QFT.
why are we even arguing this? this reminds me so much of the intital regen nerf threads it's not even funny.
Something is going to be done to change the way we currently play stalkers. All this needless arguing is doing is keeping the mods busy. Nothing anyone posts about on this forum will change one iota the direction the devs take.
Everyone needs to take a step back, enjoy their characters a little more until the devs decide it's time to change them, and stop adding to these flamebroiled nerf threads.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
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you do get an inspiration to respond to an AS attack . . . . its called an awaken 
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I laughed yesterday. Today, I'm thinking, this could actually work.
Thats an interesting idea, using an awaken in PVP phases you out for like 3 secs. I would think that you wouldnt awaken with any status effects, maybe like full end and half health. Stay phased just long enough to pop your defenses, turn on your travel power and run, or make a last ditch effort if your opponent was near defeat. You mite just have something there Pil.
this post is a little silly, ive been one shotted by stalkers before but that was only because i was unaware and not ready. Nowadays it rarely happens if anything the stalker has a problem
DPS was already nerfed with ED and non perma hasten, anymore damage nerfing and the game will bog down even more....these nerf calls are frankly getting ridiculous
most people here have been pvping since i3 in the arena and have learned to deal with this supposed "one shotting"
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Please just fire whatever designer thought a glass-cannon-stealth class would be a good idea.
This has be done in at least 3 other MMOs and it does nothing but generate neverending posts like this one.
Cryptic designers: You aren't special. You aren't going to find the magic combo that makes people like getting ganked by something that have not detected.
These classes only generate hard feelings between players. This is a colossal waste of time and development resources.
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It's not like it's the first time an MMORPG game has made a stealth high damage output char type, look at World of Warcraft with a Rougue and Anarchy Online with an Agent, now in those 2 games they might not 1 shot kill but they don't have the real problem of Travel powers on a melle class. And in WoW a rougue can stun lock you so that even though it's not 1 hit kill you it mine as well be just sitting there helpless.
This is something that may help alviate a lot of pvp issues:
If you attack a player, travel power does not gets supressed for 4 seconds, but for 15, also, teleport is disabled too, same for temporary phaseshift powers (not the ones you get from poolpowers).
This would help not only with stalkers, but anyone that attempts any alpha stryke. The issue i do find sort of wrong is, I can try to assassin some one, and if i miss, i simply have to dodge for 4 very short seconds and then travel off before almost anything can be done against me. This applies to all characters, people dont really take the risk of attacking since they still joust out. Again, this is only if used on a player target, not touching pve at all. Wont stop oneshoots, or alphas, or blabla, but do will force people to take consequences for their actions.
not its not one shotting..one shotting is a stalker asing u from behind. but, if u can outwit one stalker..u can outwit 98% of the stalker collective Elude+/e cower gets'em everytime.
Circuit_Boy said:
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It's not a "Trick Question" as much as it is a "Red Herring" to distract away from the issue of the easy Stalker one-shot kill.
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And YOU are ignoring the many OTHER power setups that can lead to one-shot kills.
They've been covered by myself and others in this thread.
C'mon folks, drop it. There are MANY ATs that can manage the circumstances of a one-shot kill. There are MANY ways to screw up a Stalker's AS.
Deal with it. The possible downsides to getting what you folks want FAR outweigh the benefits.
Stating that your PvE build should be good enough to hang in PvP is the same as saying my 4- 6 slotted movement power, 6 slotted brawl, sprint, and rest build should be good enough to solo on invincible.
It's a standpoint that is lacking in logic.
Be well, people of CoH.
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you do get an inspiration to respond to an AS attack . . . . its called an awaken
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I laughed yesterday. Today, I'm thinking, this could actually work.
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It's a rather elegant and simple solution. I like it.
<<If my blaster can NOVA and one-hit kill people and be vulnerable afterwards... So should my stalker. Difference is that my blaster requires ONE power to do it without insp., and my stalker requires two. >>
Your blaster can one shot kill a tank or scrapper? please post screenshot, thanks.
Nerf Blaster Controllers!!!!
I'm sorry but this situation and AS aren't the same.
I understand the result can be the same but it is only for very specific builds. A blaster must have the /dev secondary and also must be able to set this attack up. Even after doing that they need a way to get the person into the area. So you have to make a /dev blaster with tp foe.
Every stalker gets AS and the set up for isn't as time consuming. A stalker could be flying around see a victim fly down and AS for the kill and leave. Could a /dev do that? No, they would have to fly around see victim then begin set up, then tp foe into and get the kill. Same result, but one is easier than the other and involves the same amount of risk.
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no its not one shotting..one shotting is a stalker asing u from behind. but, if u can outwit one stalker..u can outwit 98% of the stalker collective Elude+/e cower gets'em everytime.
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But little Timmy is only 5, and he doesn't have the tactical understanding to do this. This means Stalkers are overpowered, and need further nerfs. Hence, you must all wear your shock helmets, and your character randomly detoggles and jumps up and down for five seconds every minute. 
I went on yesterday with my squishy blaster. AR/Dev as well, so I can't aim or buildup, and everyone resists my damage. I did get one shotted with AS a few times. But before getting mad, I realized I needed to see if I had anything I could do differently. I could get a team, use inspirations, upgrade my tactics, or use a power from my tray to help. My target drone didn't get past their stealth level; I tossed caltrops in the water and sat in the middle. A few seconds later I see three stalkers pop up trying to AS, and I proceed with a facefull of flamethrower+buckshot+everything else. Made a bunch of dead stalkers. Poor little guys thought they only had it rough in PvE, hehe.
Most AT sets have one power they can use, or power pool they can take to stop stalkers badly. If you don't get one, I see where you are upset, but then do we need to nerf all teleporters as they can get away, controllers who can knock you out of your fly tactics, or tanks because you picked buffs instead of damage? No matter what, there will always be something you will not do well against. Look at scrappers vs storm, villain team vs hero with kinetics, or MM vs controllers. It's likely even more lopsided of a fight and with a two minute moment of helplessness vs a quick poke of doom. Me, I kill corruptors and MM, but those brutes hand me my butt fairly well. Not everything will be perfectly equal.
This overall debate isn't as much one shotting, but people upset over their idea of fun vs. others. Not everyone's are the same (see I6 and ED for example). Since this is against other people who also are trying to enjoy things you cannot always have your ideal of fun. Taking out the AS one shot would mean death for most stalkers, and kill their fun. Its just easier for me to change myself, and meet halfway. So go ahead and one shot me if you can, but if you miss, I'm going to return the favor.
Blind Fayth - 50 Necro/Poison MasterMind
Overture - 46 Sonic/Sonic Defender
Demonspark - 42 SS/Elec Brute
Everyone is allowed to get IR goggles...
Some sets can see right through hide, some even through the hide/stealth combo...
Yellow pills are easy to get....
PvP zones are easy to stay out of....
Dark Pontiff ~ lvl 50 Dark Armor / Spines scrapper
Herd the World ~ lvl 50 Fire/Ice Tank
Glorified Violence ~ lvl 50 Dark Melee / Energy Shields brute
Redheaded Avenger ~lvl 50 fire/kin Controller
Post deleted by Alexa
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Another thing, isnt it funny how all the ppl making guides to counter stalker ganking are stalkers themselves? Is it conscience kicking in? Are they worried they know they're gonna get nerfed so need to scramble for damage control? Its the same knee-jerk reaction ppl have with cover-ups, lol.
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This just shows how immature you're being on this. I've posted a few times in support of stalkers and keeping things the way they are. I have ZERO stalkers and a ton of squishy defenders. I have been killed by stalkers quite a few times. But, as I said before, I've had them fail at AS or fail at an attempt at AS, and I've killed them many times.
Your entire faulty premise is built on incorrect fact that there is nothing you can do to prevent the attack and that it's a simple "push the button and I win" scenario. Many have told you how this is not true but your stubborness appears to be endless and you're being really close minded on the subject.
Does it occur to you that maybe some people don't agree? That some people don't find it as big as a problem as you do? That while some agree with you a good portion do not? You do get to express your opinion but you don't get to enforce it on the rest of us.
Have you played a stalker yet? You seem to think it's very easy and a no brainer but others are telling you that it isn't true. Instead of trying it for yourself you just basically call them liars. How you can honestly form an opinion without "walking a mile in their shoes" is beyond any rational thought.
You have the right to express your opinion on what it's like to be on the receiving end of a stalker attack, as do I. But you don't have the right to say what it's like on their end of the deal until you try it. Trying to talk about balance when you've only seen one side of the story is foolish and hypocritical at best.
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Untrue, I know how to deal with the stalker issue. My toons dont neccessarily have the same major problem everyone else does. I pvp alot, i do keep on my toes. But that not why I started this thread. Stalkers get to pretty much one shot the larger portion of the pvp population without risk. I see it all day in pvp zones. I start a team in the zones and start seeing ppl instantly die repeatedly and eventually quit the team b/c these newcomer or even vetrans are fed up with stalkers killing them with full health. Ppl get stuck in fights, one shotted. Ppl get snagged on terrain, one shotted. Ppl stop to send a tell, one shotted. Ppl activate a power with a long activation time, one shotted. Ppl stop for a second to scratch their [censored], guess what? One shotted. Stalkers have created a FPS environment in a MMO world. PVP was just getting REALLY good. But now its just regressed to keeping a look out for stalkers and trying to chase them down all day as they SJ away to the safe zone or til the stealth abilities kick in. Its not fun for alot of us anymore. And when I say alot of "us" I mean every non-stalker AT.
I think the problem is not one shot exactly with PvP, but with the feeling that you are getting greifed and have no chance to win. No one wants to play "you win, I lose" over and over again. Some of the things that contribute to the problem are
-one shots by stalkers
-tp from hospital
-hero/villians inside the hosptial
-TP foe out of hospital into trap
-caltops/trip mine/tp trap
At each encounter there needs to be some kind of chance that either side could have victory otherwise you feel like you are being griefed and will refuse to play in PvP. COH/COV was not designed from the ground up for PvP like games such as Guild Wars. Plus states and the others try (?) not to make changes just for PvP. So this makes it hard for PvP to be fair in this game.
I don't know what could be done to make these encounters more fun.
I have some suggestions.
-Across the board damage reduction made to other players. AS will still deal the biggest wammy, but won't one shot even level players. Maybe this would be implemented as damage resistance VS hero/villians or something like that.
-1 HP rule vs Alpha strike. I'm not sure how this would work. Castle mentioned the 3 trip mine exploit that would make this hard to patch.
-Something else that no one has come up with yet.
Something has to be done to make PvP more fun. I like PvP, but I don't like to be abused or abusive to fellow players. FPS require some skill to take down others. COV/COH feels more like paper/rock/sissors.
There has got to be a change that can be made to PvP that will not destroy PvE. I just don't know what it is.
-kikyo
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-one shots by stalkers
-tp from hospital
-hero/villians inside the hosptial
-TP foe out of hospital into trap
-caltops/trip mine/tp trap
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3 out of 5 of these are exploits/griefing. Two of them are powers that can be beaten if you use tactics and skills within your powerset.
If you can't tell the difference between the 5, then we have no common language of communication.
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-1 HP rule vs Alpha strike. I'm not sure how this would work. Castle mentioned the 3 trip mine exploit that would make this hard to patch.
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'Exploit' is your word. Not his.
The day they code PvP so as to protect you from multiple attacks (be it trip mines, three different people sniping you, two different people AS'ing you) is the day that PvP becomes a massive joke. 'Wait I'm immune to walking blithely into another team's ambush? AWESOME!'
I do so love it when the moderators come in and purge 3 pages worth of inane drivel.
Back on topic, what have we really learned?
Some folks think that their PvE builds should be fine for PvP.
Some folks think that ALL "one-shot, one-kill, drill sergeant" attacks should be removed from the game.
My simple repsonses:
Pve is NOT PvP. Nor should your PvE build, a build finely honed to deal with the AI of the game, a build finely tuned against the enemies this PvE system throws against us, and you are expecting, nay, demanding that the same build and the same tactics should be just as good against other players that have built their characters from the ground up to destroy other player characters.
This is not logical. This is not sound. This is not rational.
For those that want all one-shot kills removed from the game, it must be fair. When entering a PvP zone, NO ONE CAN ONE SHOT ANYONE OR ANYTHING. No more one shotting that -5 Hellion. No more one-shotting that Skull.
No more, means no more.
This is ALSO lacking logic. This is ALSO lacking rationality.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Another thing, isnt it funny how all the ppl making guides to counter stalker ganking are stalkers themselves? Is it conscience kicking in? Are they worried they know they're gonna get nerfed so need to scramble for damage control? Its the same knee-jerk reaction ppl have with cover-ups, lol.
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This just shows how immature you're being on this. I've posted a few times in support of stalkers and keeping things the way they are. I have ZERO stalkers and a ton of squishy defenders. I have been killed by stalkers quite a few times. But, as I said before, I've had them fail at AS or fail at an attempt at AS, and I've killed them many times.
Your entire faulty premise is built on incorrect fact that there is nothing you can do to prevent the attack and that it's a simple "push the button and I win" scenario. Many have told you how this is not true but your stubborness appears to be endless and you're being really close minded on the subject.
Does it occur to you that maybe some people don't agree? That some people don't find it as big as a problem as you do? That while some agree with you a good portion do not? You do get to express your opinion but you don't get to enforce it on the rest of us.
Have you played a stalker yet? You seem to think it's very easy and a no brainer but others are telling you that it isn't true. Instead of trying it for yourself you just basically call them liars. How you can honestly form an opinion without "walking a mile in their shoes" is beyond any rational thought.
You have the right to express your opinion on what it's like to be on the receiving end of a stalker attack, as do I. But you don't have the right to say what it's like on their end of the deal until you try it. Trying to talk about balance when you've only seen one side of the story is foolish and hypocritical at best.