One shotting has got to end
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2005-12-07 01:38 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
When you consider the pros and cons of AS, I'd say it is pretty well balanced. A stalker has to bide his/her time and choose targets wisely. As a big game cat on the savannah, they usually pick the targets of greatest opportunity, usually Controllers, blasters or defenders. Seems this is a tactics issue (i.e. player solution) and not a power issue (i.e. Dev solution).
Heart.Breaker, Pinnacle
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done."
-George Carlin
Actually Stalkers have a difficult time one shotting anything without popping more reds than you can name to hit their absolute damage cap with buildup to one shot anyone and even then its defenders and blasters which teamed is scuicide to a stalker reguardless. I see the one shot one kill strategy more effective for blasters (although as castle pointed out earlier it is really 4 shots in one) than for stalkers. Stalkers are the second most likely to die in combat following dominators by a slim margin. But one thing a stalker has going for him/her is the fact that its much easier for a stalker to hit stealth cap than other AT's. And for the record if AS gets a nerf it will take the one trick away from the one trick pony that is a stalker. You might as well take fury from the brutes, scourge from the corruptors, dominate from the dominators, the lvl 26 pet from masterminds, and the heroes might quit complaining that Villians have any sort of advantage that we never had in the first place. This is a level playfield people, every war needs a strategy and the most effective one in ANY war is end it as quickly and cleanly as possible. So I have no problem with 8 blasters with stealth hitting my stone/stone brute with snipe and killing me in 1 wave of attacks, it means they are using a simple yet effective strategy.
wanna make the game more difficult and less fun? keep complaining!
[ QUOTE ]
Squishy would be no defense buff powers, including dmg resistance powers, and no mez protection. Not only do stalkers have both, but alot of them have self heals and debuffs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Lets say then, just for fun, a blaster, took:
Tough/Weave
Combat Jumping/SJ/Acrobatics
Stimulant/Aid Self
Hurdle/Health/Stamina
Charged Armor and Electrical armor
For his Power pools/Epic pools. He has Dmg resistance, a self heal, immobilize and KB protection and sleep resistance. Is he still a squishy then?
Or just a regular bubbler. That would include defense to everything, and resistance.
All squishies have access to heals, defense, resistance, and mez protection but they are still squishy imo.
[ QUOTE ]
Tough/Weave
Combat Jumping/SJ/Acrobatics
Aid Self
Fitness
Charged Armor and Electrical armor
[/ QUOTE ]
None of which are in this blaster's primary or secondary powersets. Stalkers, on the other hand, have their entire secondary sets devoted to it.
[ QUOTE ]
Three, everyone needs to remember the absolute cap on Stealth is lower than the absolute cap on Perception if the players are even level. This means that a TEAM using non-Temp powers but with a good overlap of other powers will be able to see a Stalker before that Stalker gets into Melee Range. Additionally, while Tactics is a Toggle power which can be left on indefinitely for a +Perception boost, Grant Invisibility is a click buff which has a finite duration. So, a group of Stalkers + Support needs to stop and rebuff every few minutes to remain at the Stealth Cap, while a group using overlapped Tactics can remain on the move constantly.
[/ QUOTE ]
Gotta admit this bit concerns me. There are a lot of ifs in that statement. If a team has the right builds, if those builds can stack their effectiveness and if that is sufficient to reach the absolute cap on perception they can see any Stalker. Although it works fine on paper, I'm not sure its a realistic option for most players.
If it is achievable and becomes common practice I can also forsee Stalkers complaining when Stealth becomes useless.
I guess you'll end up having to look at stats over a long period of time to work out if this is 'working as intended'.
I think you also need to consider that travel supression expires by the end of an AS and i'd like you to take a look at Pilcrow's suggestion to use awakens as a reaction to insta-kills. I'd link the thread but I don't know how to do that tidly yet. It's in the suggestions forum anyhoo.
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tough/Weave
Combat Jumping/SJ/Acrobatics
Aid Self
Fitness
Charged Armor and Electrical armor
[/ QUOTE ]
None of which are in this blaster's primary or secondary powersets. Stalkers, on the other hand, have their entire secondary sets devoted to it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh I know, I didn't say they were. I'm just saying that they have access to it.
You responded to the wrong person...I wrote that post, not BS.
[ QUOTE ]
It's more than apparent if a player goes into a PvP zone not properly prepared or built and think they will own everything and everyone, they will suffer the consequences.
[/ QUOTE ] Strawman. No one is expecting to "own everything and everyone." You present a bogus argument that no one has made. People are expecting to have fun. If you can't understand how Stalkers are precluding that...then you are delusional....at best.
[ QUOTE ]
My Ice/EM blaster can use AIM + Buildup + Power Boost + Boost Range and 1 shot a Controller or Defender from so far away they had no chance to escape or respond.
[/ QUOTE ] I'm not buying this for a second. Ice does not have a Snipe power. Bitter Ice Blast has a shorter range than the other powers. Boost Range doesn't turn BIB into a snipe range power. BU+ Aim will not allow you to one-shot controllers with any one attack in Ice...unless you have 1 HP. What's more....I can see you...and you may not be able to see me...which means while you are about to take someon else out....I can take you out.
[ QUOTE ]
Add in the boosts I can get through Accolade powers, and I can nearly 1 shot a scrapper or tank.
[/ QUOTE ] And this part is probably a lie. What accolades boost your damage in Warburg? What Accolades boost your damage period?
[ QUOTE ]
I guess Blasters should get nerfed too.
[/ QUOTE ] Yes...this tired disanalogy so often wheeled out by Stalkers. Blasters are highly vulnerable to getting waxed themselves. Let's give blasters status protection, defense, a snipe that always knocks off two toggles, and the Hide, and the ability to stack Stealth...and we'll see who does the complaining.
[ QUOTE ]
Warburg (and I believe the upcoming level 50 PvP zone) are Free For All on either side. So how exactly are ONLY CoH players forced to team in PvP?
[/ QUOTE ] So one zone out of threee is fair? Why don't we allow AS to only work in one zone out of three...Warburg. And please dont' make conjecture about the lvl 50 zone.
More importantly, you have solved the problem, you've exasperrated it. The problem is that solo toons should be allowed to enjoy PvP without constant fear of getting one-shot by an unseen enemy.
[ QUOTE ]
A well built Controller can defeat a scrapper, tanker, blaster and defender all at once.
[/ QUOTE ] Of equal skill? Where they are they same level outside of PvP? Maybe one time in a million....with a tray full of lucks and the others too oblivious to notice.
[ QUOTE ]
Last night there was a Fire/Fire Controller in Warburg who defeated a team of two stalkers, an Ice/Fire Corruptor, an EM/Dark Brute and a Robot/Traps Mastermind - solo. Does that answer your question?
[/ QUOTE ] And I've seen /regens back in I3 die....so clearly I3 /regen wasn't overpowered. Does that answer your question?
Your anecdotes are simply that. Unusable, unscientific observations.
What is very real is the experience players have with the arrival of Stalkers in PvP. Regardless of how you want to rationalize it, the effect is there.
[ QUOTE ]
I highly doubt the developers of the game will make a change that could adversely affect revenues...
[/ QUOTE ] That's the key question which you didn't ask, but assumed was true. Where is the more profitable course? Let Stalkers dominate in PvP...or allow the average player to enjoy PvP?
They thing you and other stalkers completely overlook is the cascade effect that Stalkers have. When I got to Bloody Bay with my lvl 15 crptr and there are no heroes in the zone....or they won't fight me 1v1 because they are afraid some stalker is going to gank them...then Stalkers are precluding my enjoyment as a villian.
Another completely imbalanced situation is that the PvP zones give excellent Prestige for fighting bosses. Only the Hero side is significantly deterred from engaging in these battles for fear of getting one-shotted by opportunist Stalkers. When I take my Villians to PvP...the difference in stress is like night and day. I can lounge around, enjoy the scenery, talk to friends, etc. If one side is precluded from doing this ...so should the other side...unless you are going to give Heros substantially more xp/prestige for achievements in PvP zones.
[ QUOTE ]
My Illusion/Storm Controller can easily defeat a Stone tank.
[/ QUOTE ] Irrelevant. What does this have to do with being ones-shotted by something that you can't see? Last I checked, Stone Tanks weren't on the hit list for Heros in Siren's.
[ QUOTE ]
I have seen a well built Spines/DA scrapper solo and kill teams of 3 or more stalkers too.
[/ QUOTE ] Bogus. Once again, you provide no details of this encounter. Sure... a lvl 50 Spines/DA in Bloody Bay against three lvl 15 Stalkers. I know for a fact that EM Stalkers in Siren's can BU+AS+ET a /DA scrapper ...any /DA scrapper.
[ QUOTE ]
The devs turned a blind eye toward all the people unhappy about Enhancement Diversity.
[/ QUOTE ] Another irrelevant response. ED affects everyone.
[ QUOTE ]
Do you see me complaining about it?
[/ QUOTE ] And yet another strawman. Do you see anyone else complaining about MM? They are THE weakest AT HP wise in the game. You can completely ignore the pets. And no MM ever snuck up on me unseen. No MM can become invisible to Tactics or any of the Stealth powers while he or she is solo.
Your comparisons aren't valid, mainly because you're not really understanding the nature of the issue.
Regardless of what you think is balanced or not, Stalkers should not be allowed to preclude the fun of others. This is a game. People pay to play it because it is fun. If the devs allow one AT to...regarldess of how elegantly you may think it is designed...result in a net reduction of player enjoyment, then you have a problem.
There are probably now hundreds of posts of people complaining about the affect of Stalkers. We have a problem from a psychological perspective. If they devs ignore it, it may become an economiic problem. CoV and CoH will be significantly augmented by having enjoyable PvP for bothsides.
I would absolutely love to seem them put in a Bounty Hunter Hero what could kill Stalkers with the same effort that they can kill defenders. I'd love to see the tables turned and the responses that resulted.
[ QUOTE ]
... One, everyone needs to calm down and stop the personal attacks. We're all here trying to make this a better game, so resulting to name calling or bullying is actually contrary to our goal...
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd like to apologize for my fellow players, Castle. I don't know what's gotten into them.
Oh wait a minute ... now I have to apologize. I think I know ...
Any ETA for the sound loop / crash bug?
kkthx 
[ QUOTE ]
One shotting has got to end
[/ QUOTE ]
Roll back to before 'balance' nerfs and get rid of pvp.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't like that you seem to be taking any suggestion that there is a problem as a call for extreme nerfs.
[/ QUOTE ]
The problem being Cryptic has a reputation for turning any suggestion into an extreme nerf...
[/ QUOTE ]
A reputation they had well before I5 and I6.
It was quite inaccurate then, and if they follow through on their intent to buff more than nerf from here forward, quite unwarranted now.
[ QUOTE ]
So, a group of Stalkers + Support needs to stop and rebuff every few minutes to remain at the Stealth Cap, while a group using overlapped Tactics can remain on the move constantly.
[/ QUOTE ]
The trade off for having to buff every once in awhile is the ability to move away from the team without losing your buff. Basically, stalkers can seperate and still be hidden. On the Hero side, they have to stay together and be bunched up or they lose their stacked perception. This is not an advantage for Heroes.
People really need to knock this crap off. Play the game or don't quit calling for a nerf of this or that, be it Stalker, Blasters etc. I have played a stalker in Pvp, as well as a scrapper, a brute and a defender and Blaster. Stalkers AS is not over powered. Some times you die quickly, some times you don't. As a stalker I've had a hard time getting kills and some times they were so easy it was anti-climatic.
It all comes down to what tatics you use. If you stand still in a PvP zone and don't have any type of defense,(perception..etc..you are putting yourself at risk). Hell, I saw a tanker low on HP SJ out of a big fight a couple hundred yards and try to rest behind a wall. I followed him and AS'd him. He yelled that I was cheap..and so forth; now was it the UBERness of AS that killed him or his poor tactics? Quit complaining and just play. If you get beaten by a tactic, learn from it, build to defend against it. But for F's sakes quit being children and crying about who has what toys.
The Harpers
It puts the lotion on it's skin or it gets the hose again!
Don't forget to help control the Furry population; have your Furry spayed or neutered!
Kellen Wolf/Claw/SR(Scrapper)/ protector
Si'Nifay/Electric/Fire(Blaster)/ protector
[ QUOTE ]
Three, everyone needs to remember the absolute cap on Stealth is lower than the absolute cap on Perception if the players are even level. This means that a TEAM using non-Temp powers but with a good overlap of other powers will be able to see a Stalker before that Stalker gets into Melee Range. Additionally, while Tactics is a Toggle power which can be left on indefinitely for a +Perception boost, Grant Invisibility is a click buff which has a finite duration. So, a group of Stalkers + Support needs to stop and rebuff every few minutes to remain at the Stealth Cap, while a group using overlapped Tactics can remain on the move constantly.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is good and well but the problem is that real PVP stalkers are using stealth and hide, which masks them to such a high degree that to survive the average hero needs two powers of perception and that is just unreasonable in my eyes.
Everyone talks as if the power tactics was just an automatically chosen power. I have over 20 heroes, none have it. Some builds will never have perception beyond the IR goggles and yellow pills. These players are "Fish in a barrel" for Stalkers with stealth/hide, all those players will ever see is the one second of animation as the stalker hits, the words ASSASSIN STRIKE and the prompt to go to the hospital. The average player needs to be given an average chance of seeing the Stalker and getting a chance to actually take advantage of the supposed disadvantage if the AS being interruptable.
The other night I was in Siren's with my SR and the only reason I take my SR in there is becuase I can actually SEE stalkers if I have goggles on, I hunt them and as I stalk them I see what they do and how they do it, They hunt a great many squishies and the majority of the time the target is dead on one hit. Game over, go to the hospital, say "Hi" to nurse Betty, pay your co-pay. Additionally Stalkers comprise a the majority of the villian pvp population. It does not take a whole lot of thought to figure out why, I mean I laugh to myself as I toggle around the zone, Stalker, Stalker, Stalker, Brute, Stalker, Stalker, Mastermind, Stalker, Brute etc. etc.
Just turn off the stealth+hide combo, let Stalkers keep everything else, Let the Stalkers rely on their own innate powers and not on a broken power pool interaction.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Trick Question. The answer doesn't matter. It has the same psychological effect that a one-shot does.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bingo. This was exactly my point.
PvP is a very fine balance and there are a lot of ways to creatively combine powers for extreme effect. Assassin Attacks, while powerful, are only the most visable (irony?) example. There are others which are worse and whatever solution we come up with for 'The one shot problem' has to address as many variations as we can identify.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, which is why I felt encouraged when you said the 1 HP solution is only one of the "solutions" you are considering.
Anything that kills you in X secons or less (I'd say 2) is something that can "instagank" you - i.e. kill you before you even know you're under attack.
That's the problem. Be it one shot or three.
[/ QUOTE ]
So, does that include a team of 8 stealthed blasters that all snipe a single target?
[/ QUOTE ]
Depends on how you implement it. Here's my current favorite suggestion. Instead of speculating on my thoughts, perhaps you'd take the time to find them out and post your reactions. I've not doubt they will be insightful.
I do think that any set of tactics that eliminate the victims opportunity to actually engage in the combat have the dual-edged problem of being unpleasant for the victim and, at the same time, the best possible tactics for the hunter (since there's nothing safer for them than a tactic to which no response is posible).
Regardless of any meritocratic wish to reward smart play, we have to keep in mind that people play this game to have fun. Assuming these groups with good tactics kill more than they are killed (a likely assumption if the tactics are good) that means such situations lead to a deficit of fun.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Three, everyone needs to remember the absolute cap on Stealth is lower than the absolute cap on Perception if the players are even level. This means that a TEAM using non-Temp powers but with a good overlap of other powers will be able to see a Stalker before that Stalker gets into Melee Range. Additionally, while Tactics is a Toggle power which can be left on indefinitely for a +Perception boost, Grant Invisibility is a click buff which has a finite duration. So, a group of Stalkers + Support needs to stop and rebuff every few minutes to remain at the Stealth Cap, while a group using overlapped Tactics can remain on the move constantly.
[/ QUOTE ]
Gotta admit this bit concerns me. There are a lot of ifs in that statement. If a team has the right builds, if those builds can stack their effectiveness and if that is sufficient to reach the absolute cap on perception they can see any Stalker. Although it works fine on paper, I'm not sure its a realistic option for most players.
If it is achievable and becomes common practice I can also forsee Stalkers complaining when Stealth becomes useless.
I guess you'll end up having to look at stats over a long period of time to work out if this is 'working as intended'.
I think you also need to consider that travel supression expires by the end of an AS and i'd like you to take a look at Pilcrow's suggestion to use awakens as a reaction to insta-kills. I'd link the thread but I don't know how to do that tidly yet. It's in the suggestions forum anyhoo.
[/ QUOTE ]
The binary nature of stealth and perception runs into a similar problem that mez and mez protection does.
It isn't fun when your power is pointless and it isn't fun for the other side when your power is effective.
So, if we take Castle's comment at face value and assume that teams will huddled together with multiple tacitcs going simply to counter stalkers then what is the point of having stealth on a stalker at all? It eliminates that entire feature so why design a set that will end up bringing nothing but grief later down the road when players begin to use such tactics. Did Cryptic really think about this when they designed stalkers?
[ QUOTE ]
The binary nature of stealth and perception runs into a similar problem that mez and mez protection does.
[/ QUOTE ] I submit that it is quite different. I took my lvl 15 TA/A into BB yesterday and I ran into a Mind/PSi Dom. I had one break free...and I used it when she tried to TK me into a group of mobs while I was held. The BF let me escape...and the rest of the battle, I had to deal with chain mezing...and so what. I beat her. I've got 75% TO's and despite getting constantly mez'd, I was still able to force her to flee ...and ultimately caused her defeat as she ran into some turret that shot her down (she should have let me defeat her). The point is gettting mez'd without break frees, at least when two opponents are at the same level...does not result in a binary outcome.
The problem as I see it, and others, is not just the inviso, or just the AS, or just the escapability, it is the combination of those things. I don't care if I can't see you as long as I know you'll have little or no chance of killing me without a fight. I am less concerned that you can one shot me if I can see you guning for me (though lag makes this a problem). But when I can't see you...AND...you can one shot me...then it's not fun.
[ QUOTE ]
Did Cryptic really think about this when they designed stalkers?
[/ QUOTE ] Well, States said they designed very few things for PvP. It appears that Stalkers were designed to work in PvE. Castle posted about his experiences in PvP and apparently it probably fell on him to make sure Stalkers were viable in PvP. I am curious if he stopped to think about whether it was actually fun to fight stalkers given their setup. I don't think the devs considered what it would be like to be in a zone with 10-15 stalkers, while trying to enjoy a Hot Spot, defeat a turret base in Bloody Bay, or just fight mobs in Warburg solo. I also suspect they didn't realize that EM stalkers could basically two-shot such that you really have little or not time to react.
Like the Stamina/Hasten debacle, I am wondering Castle realized 95% of all PvP Stalkers would take Stealth and thus force players to have overlapping Tactics. And remember, a solo /Regen or /Invinc Scrapper will never be able to see a solo Hide + Stealth Stalker. Not even with IR Goggles.
I have somethine else to say about Castle's post...but I'll respond to it directly.
To add to my previous post when I talked about my encounter w/a Tank using poor tactics. Playing my Stalker I was just standing there hidden watching the grande battle going on, looking for a target, when before I knew it, I was 2 shotted by, fire/eng. blaster. I don't remember what his opener was, but he came in stealthed/invis out of my point of view, and nailed me w/his glowing pom-poms of death..I was dead almost before I could blink. People whine about the suddeness of an AS kill, well before I fully registered I had been attacked I was dead. IS he over powered for being able to kill me like that? Or was it my fault for sitting in one spot. Should I cry to have Eng. 2ndary blasters nerfed cause he wasted me like I was a fly? End result, I congratuated him for catching me sleeping and having a great attack combo..I never did get my revenge on him, but he didn't catch me w/the same trick either.
People will always say that this or that is over powered, they did that before PvP, when they weren't competing w/eachother. It's almost pathetic how childish people can be. And if you are offended by that statement, then chances are you fall in that category. It's a game, quit stomping your feet and pouting, just play. Anyone of the people that get involved in PvP can state 1 or 2 examples of how this or that was crap, whether it's fighting stalkers, Dev blasters, or any other AT. Hell I thought it was crap the other night when 3 stalkers, 2 brutes and the auto turrets in the villain base couldn't bring down a Keldian White Dwarf, as it went around tearing everything up. Am I going to complain? No, the only complaint I have is w/the people that start w/the water works every freakin time they come up against somthing that resembles adversity. Such is the state of things today.
Instead of the old adage of "nothing worth having is ever easy", some of YOU people believe in "if it's not easy, it's not worth having".
The Harpers
It puts the lotion on it's skin or it gets the hose again!
Don't forget to help control the Furry population; have your Furry spayed or neutered!
Kellen Wolf/Claw/SR(Scrapper)/ protector
Si'Nifay/Electric/Fire(Blaster)/ protector
[ QUOTE ]
Couple things:
One, everyone needs to calm down and stop the personal attacks. We're all here trying to make this a better game, so resulting to name calling or bullying is actually contrary to our goal.
Two, I like to think we are special here at Cryptic.
Three, everyone needs to remember the absolute cap on Stealth is lower than the absolute cap on Perception if the players are even level. This means that a TEAM using non-Temp powers but with a good overlap of other powers will be able to see a Stalker before that Stalker gets into Melee Range. Additionally, while Tactics is a Toggle power which can be left on indefinitely for a +Perception boost, Grant Invisibility is a click buff which has a finite duration. So, a group of Stalkers + Support needs to stop and rebuff every few minutes to remain at the Stealth Cap, while a group using overlapped Tactics can remain on the move constantly.
I'm also aware that TP Foe is a big issue in PvP. In our internal testing, my Stone/Stone Brute used it to great affect on opposing targets.
[/ QUOTE ]
Your solution requires that a team have at least two people with Tactics..unless they have one of about 5 specific sets with a +perception power. Generally this means that a team of CoH heros will need two players with Tactics...just to deal with Stalkers. Let's think about this for a second. The buff from Tactics is about 10% correct? Stacked this is about 20%. This completely nullifies /Ninji and /EA defense, and hamstrings /SR's. It also requires that they have either Assault or Manuevers. So because of this stacked stealth situation, the only way to beat it gives you such an advantage, that it skews the balance. Not only will you be able to see them, you'll be able to hit them quite reliably unless they are running Overload.
As an /SR, I know what it's like to have you defenses nullified, so I don't see how this "solution" is going to be fun for the majority of Stalkers?
The other thing I'd like to point out is the inequity of your solution. Who is forcing Cov Villians to team up and get Tactics or some other pool power requires two powers? It isn't Fire/Fire Controllers in Siren's and Warburg.
I've yet to see an explanation for why Heroes should have to team in BB and Siren's, but Villians shouldn't? And it's not just team mind you, but only team with players that can provide overlapping +perception.
I say any build should be viable, ok for the sake of obviousness lets narrow that down, after all as was pointed out, a 6 slotted brawl build and multiple travel powers won't do well in PvP of course what's obviously left out by such a straw man arguement is that they will do equally poor in PvE funny how that always seems to be left out. But you've said a little opinion as fact, trying to make any build viable is a flat out impossiblity. To which I ask a simple question. Why?
Again this seems to me to always be PvP's greatest failure the fact that because of this problem (though I'd be silly to call it the only factor) it only can attract a small minority, and quickly becomes an elitest society of pl'ed twinks, (pardon the EQ reference here) uber guilds or SG/VG's in this case, the realm of those who spend more time tricking out a build then most guys spend on their rl cars, and the kind of trash talk that many of us graduated past after high school, *looks around thread* or maybe not. Specially if one has heard about the sitting ducks on virtue, I've only heard of them by rumor and expereinces from SG mates, but let just say the reports were less then glowing.
Let's look at Bob and Joe again, jump one server over, but this time let's make a fair comparison, and look at both sides of the coin.
Bob doesn't have an army of friends ready and willing to pl him, bankroll him, or deck him out in a nice new shiny stock of HO's they have, SO's if we're talking villain or most heros. He wants his toon to be the baddest pvp machine on the block, he builds specifically for it, even at the expense of his pve ability, sure it may be slow, it be debt ridden even as he doesn't have the best tools to make it up to a pvp zones max level, he might find it boring, might find it a grind to get what he wants, may even find it unfun that he has to deal with a boring AI whooping up on him when he wants to go play with other humans.
Maybe bob wants to team so he gets his exp faster? But if bob doesn't have the best tools to be an asset to a team, how long will they keep him around if someone more useful shows up?
And what does Bob do if the pvp zones are empty? He obviously doesn't care for pve, he's not "built" for pve, but he wants to play his toon. What then? If pvp persists in being a dead zone, or bob doesn't have a schedule where he can play in prime time then it's a lose/lose situation for him. If bob is not having fun. bob doesn't play, if bob doesn't have fun for long enough then Cryptic stands a chance of losing that $15 a month. Lose/lose for them.
Ok moving on to Joe, Joe is a bit simpler here, and fairly the same, but to keep it fair lets say joe is a coh vet, a good gamer with more then one max leveled mmo toon under his belt too, on par with Bob here when it comes to game experience.
Joe though wants to make his build pve centric of course. Why not? After all part of the point in SC is a massive large scale pve battle (something i'd like to see a LOT more of in game, not just in pvp zones) Joe's build like Bob's is tricked out the opposite way with a good selection of powers for AI abuse, is meant to support his friends, and all in all can really rock the house in a pve world. So Joe heads into SC having easily (or more easily then Bob) gotten to the needed levels people say to have for success within, is ready to assit his loyal heros/villains in repeling the other side.....
...And suddenly finds out his build would be great for dealing with the AI mobs, provided the players didn't gank him every 5 seconds no matter the Alpha strike method (_Ilr_ is dead on with this one) and his ability in PvP has been totally rendered pointless by some rather large mistakes from the devs, as ANYONE myself included with elec blast can testify too.
Joe's though after a while? "If I'm not having fun, and I have to admit not being able to do much at all certainly isn't fun, why do I bother coming here?" So Joe writes off PvP, resulting in one less target for Bob, not to mention an overall loss for the zone in general paticpation. And taken to an extreme Joe could very well go and say, "If most of cov is ending up being pvp in the late game, specially warbug or base raids, and my build isn't gonna do jack there, why should I bother playing and leveling it up? Why play a game where half the content becomes may as well not apply because i don't want to waste two picks for tactics in my already tight build?" Which again could easily result in that $15 a month going poof.
Loss of fun for Bob
Loss of fun for Joe
Loss of money for Cryptic
I'm sure most don't percieve it this way, but to me it's an equally large flaw in game design that a pvp build can't pve well, just as much as a pve build has trouble pvp'ing.
To keep a car analogy "running" 
Sure the minivan loses the race to the sports car, but which one does dad use to take the kids to football practice?
To continue.
[ QUOTE ]
Trying to nip/tuck the code to increase Joe's survivability in that fight to the mythical point where he gets to 'fight back',
There is no way to do that without MASSIVE propping up of builds that aren't meant for PvP.
[/ QUOTE ]
See statements like this, i'm sorry but they do irk me, you've got a good opinion, but it's not fact, do not treat it as such please. And you don't even bother to back it up. Kindly name one please, a build that is that would need MASSIVE propping up, not something silly like a 6 slotted brawl one either.
And this goes right back to my eariler point/wish. It should be ability that dictates a win, not a build. Most good pve builds already have some pvp viablity, my defender for instance took tactics for the pve aspect, pvp boosts are a happy trade off, and I do delight in seeing stalkers run from snow storms the few times i have been to a pvp zone.
But other toons? Non defender ones where the boost from tactics is certainly almost not worth the two picks needed to get it? Where tactics doesn't even remotly fit into my admitablly close minded rp'er mindset for a build? No, I most certainly will not take it, and again I think it's flat out stupid that the stealth vs perception mechanic is so borked that powers on both sides become a super "need" rather then a "want" And find the endless war of lets see who can stack the most as equally silly as how so many random powers seemed to have +perception just tacked on like an afterthought more then an effort to make it a meaningful mechanic.
No matter how you look at it folks can we all at least admit that a stalker taking stealth for the stacking, when hide is a first level power that works better is just a bit on the silly side?
Oh and yes i'm still a bit jaded over the whole end drain will be powerful in pvp, then fifty million powers having drain resist tacked on, along with drain rendered pointless anyway pre ED. I've got no problem admitting what does color my opinions on these issues. Probably comes from playing an ignored defender for so long too, double for playing a stormie, only poor FF has seen less love.
[ QUOTE ]
That's not even to touch on the fact that the mindsets behind the characters almost insures that even givent he exact same powersets Bob is always going to beat Joe because Bob is going to figure out how to best apply what powers he has. Not because he's smarter or better but because he's more interested in experimenting/trying it out.
[/ QUOTE ]
See again this is another pet peeve I have when people try to make an arguement, you are not psychic, so you can not offer us any insight into Bob or Joe's heads and tell us which comes out on top because one is more interested in trying things out, if anything i'd say again Joe wins over Bob in experimenting for the best pve build if you want to go down that road.
And before you even stat to say that i'm doing the same up above let me say i'm working from personal experience *puts on his Joe hat* as I've thought that very same thing regarding cov. Its quite enjoyable, but feeling like i'm trapped in half a game because i refuse to cater to the whims of the must have for pvp crowd, or don't want to waste my time with a second toon just for pvp is quite irksome. I'd like to see a happy medium, that sweet spot where..and i'll say it again because it bears repeating..abiility wins, not build, not the current enhancement issues with SO'd 50 heroes trouncing TO and DO villains in BB, and not cheesy toys like the IR goggles helping to break an AT's class defining aspect. Doesn't anyone else find that more then a little whacked?
[ QUOTE ]
But the PvP market isn't a casual market, by and large... it's a hardcore market... the people who by both editions of the game to play it.. maybe even have multiple accounts. And if you introduce elements to make PvP more 'broad' in appeal, what you're actually doing is alienating those hardcores.
[/ QUOTE ]
And the fact it's always been seen as a hardcore only area is why in the end pvp becomes a little sidebar for the minorty I don't feel Cryptic needed to even cater too in the first place. I won't be surprised at all if there's simply not enough players to support it because hardcore players are usually the minority, specially in what many would call a "carebear" game like coh pre cov coming out. Most of them are off playing a full on pvp game like lineage, or off in wow on the battlegrounds not here. Heck guild wars too for that matter.
If you don't get enough players in the zone, there's no point ot having the zone in the first place, and with all due respect how in the bloody hell is having MORE people in the pvp zones by making it broader a bad thing? The harcores will still have the better builds despite my wishes for this mattering less, they will still have the greater skill and ability which i'll fully credit them with. A good group made for pvp'ing who know each other will gleefully slaughter those newbs like leading lambs to a slaughter if a PuG takes them on. So what is the big farking deal with making it a bit more viable for all?
Personally? I'm going to have to go the more cynical route and call the elites cowards. Alienating? When you've just given them more poeple to fight? Please...not buying this sillyness for one second. If you ask me and yes I'm going to go insulting sue me, they're so afraid of losing any advantage they have that they'll fight tooth and nail to protect it because their precious lil e-peen quakes at the thought that someone might have even the slightest chance of beating their "uber" lil build.
[ QUOTE ]
Who wants to take the tradeoffs of a strictly PvP built char, if anyone entering the zone has a chance to beat it anyway?
[/ QUOTE ]
And who wants to play against a strictly built PvP toon when they know right off they've got zero to nil chance of beating it with a more pve centric build? And have to make the exact dame cookie cutter crappy in pve toon, be it needing tons of stealth or tons of perception or they may as well not bother?
You even the score a bit, you make build matter less and ability matter more, you've just killed not only my complaints but the very question you just asked me, it's two birds with one stone.
[ QUOTE ]
but building the system so that you don't need to make any concessions at all? Is foolish in the extreme.
[/ QUOTE ]
So is a system where you're forced into a certain route or a certain build just to have a chance be it pvp or pve, one need only look to an AT forum to see the opinions on the musts and the useless, specially scrappers and the often nerfed regen.
Look at this thread itself, I noticed a common trend I see talking with other friends, there's powers that are a total joke in pve, yet are total pwnage in pvp, and vice versa. Which goes right back to being told more then once by a couple that certain power picks were going to make pvp a lot harder if not impossible. Just as much as i've been told that taking others would make other toons a lot less pve viable.
To which I ask again, why does this really have to be the case, and well, can't help but kinda harp on elec blast again (hint hint here castle if you're still out there) I'd like to again see a much more happy medium then what we have now, just a different aspect of it here. Making any power viable, ( i won't go as far as to say totally useful) on both sides of the coin leads to more variety, less cookie cutter, ability for more people to give pvp a whirl, greater ability to enjoy pve when the zones are low on targets, but most of all what i'd love to see, and that's more fun.
Something which pvp in it's current form really isn't to me. Just too many little flaws and the same stuff I've seen before to really make we want to enjoy it. Good thing I do love the pve aspects of cov and coh so much still eh? 
[ QUOTE ]
Couple things:
One, everyone needs to calm down and stop the personal attacks. We're all here trying to make this a better game, so resulting to name calling or bullying is actually contrary to our goal.
Two, I like to think we are special here at Cryptic.
Three, everyone needs to remember the absolute cap on Stealth is lower than the absolute cap on Perception if the players are even level. This means that a TEAM using non-Temp powers but with a good overlap of other powers will be able to see a Stalker before that Stalker gets into Melee Range. Additionally, while Tactics is a Toggle power which can be left on indefinitely for a +Perception boost, Grant Invisibility is a click buff which has a finite duration. So, a group of Stalkers + Support needs to stop and rebuff every few minutes to remain at the Stealth Cap, while a group using overlapped Tactics can remain on the move constantly.
I'm also aware that TP Foe is a big issue in PvP. In our internal testing, my Stone/Stone Brute used it to great affect on opposing targets.
[/ QUOTE ]
Anytime I think that someone is "special" I tend to think that they are off of the short yellow bus.
The +perception/+stealth balance is broken. Yes, heroes can build up enough +perception to see through the +stealth that stalkers can get. If the stalker doesn't stack +stealth through multiple (mostly pool) powers, but tries to use their inherent, they can be spotted at massive ranges. And it renders all other forms of stealth worthless for other villains.
However, to do that, the hero side has to build specifically for PVP. Which isn't a huge problem at the moment, given the number of 50s that can switch their builds around for it. But at the same time, the villains are not required to do so. Yes, stalkers can build for maximum efficiency in PVP by picking up Stealth, maybe grabbing TP foe. But that's nothing compared to the slots required for the hero group to counter the stalkers.
Ultimately, the system doesn't work. It needs to be rebuilt to address the concerns. Something needs to be done. Copy DAOC or WOW, if you need to. Reduce the impact of +perception across the board so that stealth powers of all kinds can play a larger role. Allow targets without +perception to see through all forms of stealth at point-blank ranges, but prevent hotkey/tab targeting of them, to give the stalker time to get off an AS if they're quick.
Eliminate one shots (only natural ones I can think of are scrappers (criticals) and stalkers (AS), I haven't run into anything else that comes close to that from a single character. And if it's a team, that's not a one-shot.)
Best solution to TP foe I've heard: 5 seconds of intangibility after the port (as they're pulled through the dimensions). The target gets time to run, if they react quickly. Won't change PvE much, and will prevent a good chunk of the TP foe nonsense we're seeing now. No more porting people into minefields, full groups, or placate/AS.
[ QUOTE ]
Best solution to TP foe I've heard: 5 seconds of intangibility after the port (as they're pulled through the dimensions).
[/ QUOTE ] That is a good idea.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Couple things:
One, everyone needs to calm down and stop the personal attacks. We're all here trying to make this a better game, so resulting to name calling or bullying is actually contrary to our goal.
Two, I like to think we are special here at Cryptic.
Three, everyone needs to remember the absolute cap on Stealth is lower than the absolute cap on Perception if the players are even level. This means that a TEAM using non-Temp powers but with a good overlap of other powers will be able to see a Stalker before that Stalker gets into Melee Range. Additionally, while Tactics is a Toggle power which can be left on indefinitely for a +Perception boost, Grant Invisibility is a click buff which has a finite duration. So, a group of Stalkers + Support needs to stop and rebuff every few minutes to remain at the Stealth Cap, while a group using overlapped Tactics can remain on the move constantly.
I'm also aware that TP Foe is a big issue in PvP. In our internal testing, my Stone/Stone Brute used it to great affect on opposing targets.
[/ QUOTE ]
Your solution requires that a team have at least two people with Tactics..unless they have one of about 5 specific sets with a +perception power. Generally this means that a team of CoH heros will need two players with Tactics...just to deal with Stalkers. Let's think about this for a second. The buff from Tactics is about 10% correct? Stacked this is about 20%. This completely nullifies /Ninji and /EA defense, and hamstrings /SR's. It also requires that they have either Assault or Manuevers. So because of this stacked stealth situation, the only way to beat it gives you such an advantage, that it skews the balance. Not only will you be able to see them, you'll be able to hit them quite reliably unless they are running Overload.
As an /SR, I know what it's like to have you defenses nullified, so I don't see how this "solution" is going to be fun for the majority of Stalkers?
The other thing I'd like to point out is the inequity of your solution. Who is forcing Cov Villians to team up and get Tactics or some other pool power requires two powers? It isn't Fire/Fire Controllers in Siren's and Warburg.
I've yet to see an explanation for why Heroes should have to team in BB and Siren's, but Villians shouldn't? And it's not just team mind you, but only team with players that can provide overlapping +perception.
[/ QUOTE ]
He never said you HAD or were FORCED to team, he merely pointed out the min. and maxs, the pros and the cons.. With so many people yelling DOOOOM!! about the stalkers he's pointing out the advantages and disadvantages of both groups. There are so many tactics to nullify and negate stalkers uber hide/AS ability, but everyone wants an easy fix
The Harpers
It puts the lotion on it's skin or it gets the hose again!
Don't forget to help control the Furry population; have your Furry spayed or neutered!
Kellen Wolf/Claw/SR(Scrapper)/ protector
Si'Nifay/Electric/Fire(Blaster)/ protector
Defender buffs don't help? I didn't try pvp yet but this looks like an old daoc topic.. nerf stealthers then nerf casters then nerf everyone.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Trick Question. The answer doesn't matter. It has the same psychological effect that a one-shot does.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bingo. This was exactly my point.
PvP is a very fine balance and there are a lot of ways to creatively combine powers for extreme effect. Assassin Attacks, while powerful, are only the most visable (irony?) example. There are others which are worse and whatever solution we come up with for 'The one shot problem' has to address as many variations as we can identify.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, which is why I felt encouraged when you said the 1 HP solution is only one of the "solutions" you are considering.
Anything that kills you in X secons or less (I'd say 2) is something that can "instagank" you - i.e. kill you before you even know you're under attack.
That's the problem. Be it one shot or three.
[/ QUOTE ]
So, does that include a team of 8 stealthed blasters that all snipe a single target?
There comes a point when you have to decide how much you are going to encourage tactics and how much you are going to limit tactics. Is a Trip Mining /dev blaster annoying someone? Does the /dev blaster have many other options that offer him a positive gaming experience? Looking at things from the point of the defender is good but lets not forget the point of view of the Attacker.
The /dev blaster took time, to sit vulnerable and plant his Trip Mines and then he has to attempt to get someone in range of both his Trip Mines and his TP-Foe attack. What about the /Dev blaster that doesn't have TP-Foe? What about the guy who lures a player into his Trip Mines? This is only looking at blasters.
What about four tanks teleporting in and all hiting ET or Knock-out Blow on a single target? Where does it end and are any lines going to be crossed in the sand to prevent Tactics from being abused in this game.
The question is whether or not it is too easy for STALKERS to kill people in one shot. That is my opinion. If it is then guess who bites the bullet? Risk VS. Reward. Will tactics be rewarded or punished in this game?