One shotting has got to end
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2005-12-07 01:38 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
So what you're saying then is that PvP right now is not fun for anyone that's not a Stalker or that is not specifically hunting Stalkers?
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So what you're saying then is that PvP right now is not fun for anyone that's not a Stalker or that is not specifically hunting Stalkers?
[/ QUOTE ]Read the boards...do the math.
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I feel that there are counters to everything, and a way to overcome just about every thing out there....I still haven't figured out how to overcome hurricane used by storm controllers/def. Or repel used by kinetics.
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Then why are you even weighing in on this discussion to begin with? Give me a sheet of paper and a calculator and I could tell you exactly how to beat both of them with any build down to the exact attack-chain and # of slots. Oddly enough, this is the only reason I go into a PvP zone when there's Stalkers in it. Do you LIKE this dangerous precedent that's being set? Are you fully contemplating the results of PvP where only the Elite can have fun? ...For Starters, YOU wouldn't be having any fun there because you'd be dead after every fight.
As a fellow fan of Clan Wolf (I even named one of my heroes after a Kerensky), I have to say, you're acting more like a Jade Falcon. You might *feel* that things are balanced but you're leaping in with assumptions instead of veteran experience.
So let's address the 5 most common myths about Stalking:
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#1: "Keep moving and you won't get AS'd 
"[*] FALSE! As long as AS is started while your target is in melee range, it WILL hit nomatter how quickly the target leaves melee range during the Interruption window(line of Sight pending)
#2: "Stalkers only do good damage when Critting/AS'ing "[*] FALSE! Stalkers' attacks are still a Primary and all of them including Claws have higher single-target DPS than ALL defender Secondaries, ALL-but-1 Dominator Secondary, 4/6 Controller Primaries, ALL Tanker Secondaries, ALL MM's, and almost half of Corruptor Primaries. The only reason Blasters and Scrappers edge them out, is that they recieve 125% to the Stalkers 100% +DMG from Buidup, but that doesn't take into account the Stalker's higher Damage-Cap that allows AS to function as it does.
#3: "2 Perception powers can see Double-Stealth "[*] FALSE! For ~83% of all possible powerset-combos, it takes 3 or more. Meanwhile most builds can only achieve 1 or 2 perception powers...and one of them depends on winning the battles in Siren's...a zone festering with Stalkers. That's what's known as a Catch22.
#4: "AoE always interrupts my AS! "[*] FALSE! Even a /Regen can pop a Luck and hit the AoE defense-cap(5% chance to be hit) against all slow-ticking or PvP Non-Autohit AoE's that A)Don't have ACC slotting as an Option, B)Have an inherrant ACC Penalty, or C)Are poorely slotted for ACC because the 7 other enhancement options on them take much higher priority in day-to-day combat or may even be required to attack a Stalker effectively once one is finally spotted. And to top this all off, the devs will be changing as many Auto-hit AoE's into To_Hit--checking AoE's as they can get away with, SOON
#5: "I HAVE TO stay hidden for a long time and watch/follow carefully before I can defeat anyone "[*] FALSE, you lurk unseen and pick your fights carefully because it's a Luxury afforded to you. Just like it was a Luxory afforded to Illusionists in Issue#4. But the only thing you need to "watch carefully" is your mouse pointer as you put it over the players in front of you so you can look for +PER powers(Here's a tip: just toggle your targeting button to get him, and press whatever button is bound to /info, it's much faster). ANY player with Stealth and Invis powers has this luxory and always has to follow their target around for a random-to-extended duration of time in order to stack the odds of snagging themselves an easy kill--even against a team of players** There is no need for a Gamble on your part, a Monkey who is taught to use a calculator could do the same thing. Meanwhile players without superior -PER cloaking powers, especially squishies, are at the Mercy of anything they get within visible range of, including gank-squads and Scissors-to-their-Paper. THAT takes REAL self-confidence and skill to shine when you're that guy!
**A couple days ago my Ill/Kin "Stalktroller" killed 3 Masterminds in 15 seconds that were clumped together camping our BB-Base with 2 other Masterminds, and I escaped the fight with 30% health simply by visualizing my target(s)/DPS ahead of time without them knowing I was there. 10 seconds later after resting a few feet out of their perception, I came back for the last one while a rather lame Scrapper distracted and slowly defeated the 2nd of the remaining MM's... BTW, 2 of them were */FF. I don't even want to think about about the size of the groups my Spines/Ninjitsu Stalker will be capeable of soloing in PvP considering I'll have Slow/Fear/Mez protection.
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Actually, I would say I have veteran experience.
As far as not wieghing in on this discussion because, I havn't found a way to get AS to go off against Hurricane or repel w/o using fly..that's just silly. Just because I haven't found a way doesn't mean there isn't one.
As to your accusations that I like the precedents being set, well if you have read any of my previous posts you would see that I most definately do not like anything about this thread..and the precedent for people crying to nerf others powers was set a LONG time ago.
To me not having fun because I would be dead after every fight, well the way things are now, that doesn't happen, no matter what AT I play. I win and I loose whether I play Scrapper or Defender, Stalker or Dominator. Furthermore the char. I play w/are pure PvE blds, nothing thrown in for PvP. My Stalkers only have hide, and none of Heroes have tactics or stealth. They all do just fine..solo or in groups..execept when I get ganged up on of course. I don't want any powers to get nerfed in anyway, it's not needed.
As far as saying I talk like a JF..that's just insulting..if this were MW I would call you a filthy free birth and challenge you to Zellbrigan 
The Harpers
It puts the lotion on it's skin or it gets the hose again!
Don't forget to help control the Furry population; have your Furry spayed or neutered!
Kellen Wolf/Claw/SR(Scrapper)/ protector
Si'Nifay/Electric/Fire(Blaster)/ protector
Okay, so what we need then is a single counter-example... one person who is neither a Stalker nor a Stalker hunter, and the premise is discredited, right?
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Okay, so what we need then is a single counter-example... one person who is neither a Stalker nor a Stalker hunter, and the premise is discredited, right?
[/ QUOTE ]Your logic does not compute.
<smile> Quason, you're trying to manuever this discussion into some binary truth. A lot of people aren't enjoying the current setup. As a dev, you can ignore it or you can heed it. You can rationalize it anyway you want, but at the end of the day, that is what you have to face.
Cryptic has done an excellent job of understanding that. Unyielding Stance may have been balanced, but it wasn't fun. Being rooted wasn't fun. They changed it.
What you're doing is attempting to construct a logical argument, and you're doing it exactly right.
You start with a universally true premise, then you apply that premise to a specific situation within the universal truth. That's "deductive reasoning" since you're deducing from the universal to the specific.
For example. Premise: PvP isn't fun unless you're a Stalker or a Stalker Hunter. Given: There are other players besides Stalkers and Stalker Hunters. Deduction: PvP isn't fun for those players.
The argument is rock-solid. The Given is accurate and the Deduction follows very smoothly and logically from the given and the premise.
In order to deconstruct that logical argument, the PREMISE would have to be deconstructed. In other words, one would have to present a counter-example that proved that the premise is NOT, in fact, universally true, in which case any deduction derived from that premise would be suspect.
Therefore, logically, if there is a single person playing CoH/V that is neither a Stalker nor a Stalker Hunter that enjoys PvP, the logical argument is deconstructed.
I'm sure we can find one.
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Okay, so what we need then is a single counter-example... one person who is neither a Stalker nor a Stalker hunter, and the premise is discredited, right?
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Oh! Oh! ME ME ME!!! I'll play! I don't play stalkers. And guess what?!?! I haven't gone into a PvP zone on a team yet!
And I don't hunt stalkers! I go for whoever is in my way. Sometimes I die. Sometimes I kill. And here's the kicker: Even though I think PvP brings out the stupidest and worst of all gamers, I STILL HAD FUN IN THERE!
I laughed at the griefers and their lack of a life or a substantial package. I laughed at the whiners that get pissy when they lose.
But then I would fight someone that said "good show!" when I beat them. Or "Good fight!" when the beat me.
So.. yea... theory blown to hell.
Be well, people of CoH.
...and there's our counter-example.
Mieux, I'm not saying you're wrong in your argument. I'm just saying that the logical construct with which you attempted to prove it is invalid. You're certainly welcome to attempt to construct a new one.
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Premise: PvP isn't fun unless you're a Stalker or a Stalker Hunter
[/ QUOTE ] False. Once again...a strawman argument. You have presented the premise as an abslolute..which it is not. As I said..you are attempting to twist the argument into a binary state. It doesn't change the reality of the situation. Continued attempts to ignore that suggest that you are not interseted in solving the problem, just pretending it doesn't exist.
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This isn't about not winning.
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Then what's it about?
[/ QUOTE ]It's about having a PvP experience that isn't just fun for stalkers or Stalker Hunting teams.
[/ QUOTE ]Part of the problem is you keep pigeon holing people. I am not a stalker, I play all ATs as do many, I have several lvl 50 heroes and only one is a Scrapper.
My problem is the fact that people keep claiming somthing is broken when it's not. I'm not a big fan of the controller AT but if somone wanted to nerf their primary..or any power for that matter..I because some could not find a way to defend against it, I would be aguing just as much against it.
You are quick to shoot down my statements, and that's fine, but they are still valid. Each of the AT forums have comments, and tips about how to waste stalkers. There are ways to do it w/o taking all the pool powers avail and PvE gimping your char to do it.
One comment that was shot at was about me being able to not get AS'd w/o even trying. I think the reply was 'you shouldn't site dumb luck'. My point was missed. If it can be countered w/o trying then it most definately can be done when the player is activley trying and thinking about the possible threat.
Ad nauseum or not, if people don't like what somone has, and perceives it to be unfair to THEM, then they want it simply nerfed.
Also misunderstood and only partially replied to was my comment about AS and aura's both missing. It is possible for both to miss, no matter how many insp. or SO's you have slotted. No matter how high your def. is you can still be hit..as an SR vet, I know that as a fact. I've missed AS several times. I've been revealed by an aura many times. My fire tanker has caught Stalkers, using the same trick I've tried using as a Stalker.
I maintain that there a checks and balances for all of these Powers/and ATs. So people need to quit trying to get people nerfed and just play and figure things out.
The Harpers
It puts the lotion on it's skin or it gets the hose again!
Don't forget to help control the Furry population; have your Furry spayed or neutered!
Kellen Wolf/Claw/SR(Scrapper)/ protector
Si'Nifay/Electric/Fire(Blaster)/ protector
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It's about having a PvP experience that isn't just fun for stalkers or Stalker Hunting teams.
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You're presenting it as an absolute here. "...isn't just fun..." sets this statement up as a universal truth since it excludes counter-examples. Hence the presentation of a counter-example.
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What you're doing is attempting to construct a logical argument, and you're doing it exactly right.
You start with a universally true premise, then you apply that premise to a specific situation within the universal truth. That's "deductive reasoning" since you're deducing from the universal to the specific.
For example. Premise: PvP isn't fun unless you're a Stalker or a Stalker Hunter. Given: There are other players besides Stalkers and Stalker Hunters. Deduction: PvP isn't fun for those players.
The argument is rock-solid. The Given is accurate and the Deduction follows very smoothly and logically from the given and the premise.
In order to deconstruct that logical argument, the PREMISE would have to be deconstructed. In other words, one would have to present a counter-example that proved that the premise is NOT, in fact, universally true, in which case any deduction derived from that premise would be suspect.
Therefore, logically, if there is a single person playing CoH/V that is neither a Stalker nor a Stalker Hunter that enjoys PvP, the logical argument is deconstructed.
I'm sure we can find one.
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Newton's Laws of Mechanics are not universally true. They are especially inaccurate near the speed of light.
But for most practical purposes, they remain an extremely legitimate and useful way to understand much of the physics of everyday life. The fact is: I can make a good prediction of how to bank my pool shot based on Newtonian Mechanics. I don't have to account for how I would bank the shot if near a black hole to make a good decision.
Likewise, one counter-example does not invalidate his argument.
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Part of the problem is you keep pigeon holing people.
[/ QUOTE ] I didn't pigeon hole you at all. You don't have to be a Stalker to have bogus examples and analogies..
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My problem is the fact that people keep claiming somthing is broken when it's not.
[/ QUOTE ] Wha tpeople are saying is that it isn't fun. You seem to keep ignoring that. Your whole argument is that because their might some check or balance, then every thing is hunky dory. It's not. I'm not sure why you can't seem to grok that just because something exist in this game doesn't make it an enjoyable experience.
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I'm not a big fan of the controller AT but if somone wanted to nerf their primary..or any power for that matter..I because some could not find a way to defend against it, I would be aguing just as much against it.
[/ QUOTE ] Then why aren't you out lobbying for the removal of Break Frees? People said Chain Mezing wasn't fun and what happend? Did the devs counter with your "well there are checks and balances, son, so you need to just grin and bear it"? No. The paid attention and the added suppression and break frees.
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My point was missed.
[/ QUOTE ] Your point wasn't missed, because it wasn't made. The things you did to counter AS...had nothing to do with any active effort on your part. You chose that power long before you even knew it might help.
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If it can be countered w/o trying then it most definately can be done when the player is activley trying and thinking about the possible threat.
[/ QUOTE ] First, that's just not even logically valid. Second, ....so what...the question is whether that makes for enjoyable experience. IF the solution to stopping AS was to constaly type 1,2,1,2...who cares. Nobody wants to go through PvP like that. Let Stalkers do that for 1/2 hour to recharge AS and we'll see how much fun it is for them. But hey.."it's easy."
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Also misunderstood and only partially replied to was my comment about AS and aura's both missing
[/ QUOTE ] You completely missed my point Kellen. When AS misses...so what...you run away. When BA misses...you take it in the keyster. How are those situations comparable? They are not.
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I maintain that there a checks and balances for all of these Powers/and ATs.
[/ QUOTE ] That was true before they had Break Frees...so why did they bring in break frees?
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It's about having a PvP experience that isn't just fun for stalkers or Stalker Hunting teams.
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You're presenting it as an absolute here. "...isn't just fun..." sets this statement up as a universal truth since it excludes counter-examples. Hence the presentation of a counter-example.
[/ QUOTE ]No..I am not presenting an aboslute...I am trying to avoid one. Do really think I mean to say that nobody who is not a Stalker is having fun in PvP? The fact that you would attempt to wrestle that perspective from my statement, even if it is technically supportable, is proof that you are just looking to argue. You don't have a substantive defense and are simply trying to play word games.
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Newton's Laws of Mechanics are not universally true. They are especially inaccurate near the speed of light.
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Which is why they've been largely rejected in favor of the General Relativity Theory. That, however, breaks down in very small masses and singularities, so the difference is made up with Quantum Theory. Unfortunately, neither are universally true, hence the search for the Grand Unified Theory, which doesn't exist just yet.
So even Newton, Heisenberg, and Einstein aren't absolutes. It's not likely we're going to find the grand unified theory of PvP, either.
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Newton's Laws of Mechanics are not universally true. They are especially inaccurate near the speed of light.
But for most practical purposes, they remain an extremely legitimate and useful way to understand much of the physics of everyday life. The fact is: I can make a good prediction of how to bank my pool shot based on Newtonian Mechanics. I don't have to account for how I would bank the shot if near a black hole to make a good decision.
Likewise, one counter-example does not invalidate his argument.
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I am relatively stupid, so let's instead talk about something more along the lines of.....
The square root of X=(the secant of the tangent of y)-(2 times the hypotenuse of the x-axis),all divided by pi....in fact, this pi
Bare bones your arguement is that having AS in it's current state is unfun. That's fine, it does suck to loose. That arguement can be applied to just about every AT/power in the game. Yes every AT and every power, has aspects that can make it difficult and challenging, and cause you to loose and for many that will equate to unfun.
If want to search the archives for the threads that had to do w/the nerfing of the controller powers, you find several posts by me against it.
I maintain that there are numerous counters to stalkers, built into the AT and into the game, IR goggles, travel powers, etc..
As far as the missing situations being comparable..they are, they are both possible. If a stalker misses he's open w/his moderate defence and weak HPs. He may not always get killed but an AS doesn't always 1 shot either.
I don't want to see anyone nerfed, for Pvp or for anything. If somthing is broken, fine fix it. Stalkers are not in this category. If somone loosing finds it unfun, then don't play games. Any number of people that play this game have been killed by stalkers, and have killed stalkers. They aren't uber or broken. They don't need to take multiple pool powers to 'just stay alive'.
It all comes back to: people get beaten, feel it's unfair and instead of thinking of a counter, cry to momma and pappa dev for a nerf. Again the boards have many examples and warstories about how this controller or that tanker or this Keldian 'pwned' a stalker or a group of stalkers.
Basically this is a circular arguement, I won't get on board w/nerfing a fun AT to play and play against. And you feel you are unequivically right.
The Harpers
It puts the lotion on it's skin or it gets the hose again!
Don't forget to help control the Furry population; have your Furry spayed or neutered!
Kellen Wolf/Claw/SR(Scrapper)/ protector
Si'Nifay/Electric/Fire(Blaster)/ protector
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Newton's Laws of Mechanics are not universally true. They are especially inaccurate near the speed of light.
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Which is why they've been largely rejected in favor of the General Relativity Theory. That, however, breaks down in very small masses and singularities, so the difference is made up with Quantum Theory. Unfortunately, neither are universally true, hence the search for the Grand Unified Theory, which doesn't exist just yet.
So even Newton, Heisenberg, and Einstein aren't absolutes. It's not likely we're going to find the grand unified theory of PvP, either.
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Way to miss the point.
Even though Newton's Laws are, in fact, incorrect, I bet they tuaght them to you in school. Why? Because you can still make a lot of good decisions wbased on those laws - even though they aren't universally true.
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Even though Newton's Laws are, in fact, incorrect, I bet they tuaght them to you in school. Why? Because you can still make a lot of good decisions wbased on those laws - even though they aren't universally true.
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*nod* And then you take Physics in college and they tell you "forget all that BS you learned in grade school, it's wrong. here's how it actually works..." and you wonder why you wasted your time learning Newtonian Physics if it's been proven incorrect.
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Even though Newton's Laws are, in fact, incorrect, I bet they tuaght them to you in school. Why? Because you can still make a lot of good decisions wbased on those laws - even though they aren't universally true.
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*nod* And then you take Physics in college and they tell you "forget all that BS you learned in grade school, it's wrong. here's how it actually works..." and you wonder why you wasted your time learning Newtonian Physics if it's been proven incorrect.
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Because most people aren't traveling across the universe, exploring quantum foam, or skipping around on black holes.
But most people ARE going to college now. The College Board (people that do the SAT, among other things) recently reported that the percentage of students who go on to college directly out of high school has risen above the 50% mark. I read that in the NEA journal (my wife is a public school teacher) but I'll try to find an online source to link for you if you like.
my point of view is this. CoV PvP is not a good as it should be. It is not as fun as it should be. Other PvP are far better IMO.
There are many reasons for this. This game was not designed for PvP. When they change the game to make PvP better, people freak out.
Screw it I say. If we are going to have PvP, make that the goal and balance the mobs againt that. Make it as good as soul caliber or Halo and I'm in.
COH PVP is lame in my opinion, some like it sure. But if you go in bloody bay and \whoall then go in some other zone and \whoall, do a little math and you will see that the masses have spoken for PvE.
-k
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What you're doing is attempting to construct a logical argument, and you're doing it exactly right.
You start with a universally true premise, then you apply that premise to a specific situation within the universal truth. That's "deductive reasoning" since you're deducing from the universal to the specific.
For example. Premise: PvP isn't fun unless you're a Stalker or a Stalker Hunter. Given: There are other players besides Stalkers and Stalker Hunters. Deduction: PvP isn't fun for those players.
The argument is rock-solid. The Given is accurate and the Deduction follows very smoothly and logically from the given and the premise.
In order to deconstruct that logical argument, the PREMISE would have to be deconstructed. In other words, one would have to present a counter-example that proved that the premise is NOT, in fact, universally true, in which case any deduction derived from that premise would be suspect.
Therefore, logically, if there is a single person playing CoH/V that is neither a Stalker nor a Stalker Hunter that enjoys PvP, the logical argument is deconstructed.
I'm sure we can find one.
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I play a Stone/Stone brute and I have a blast reguardless, of course it is fun playing bait for stalker killers at times too, but solo vs tankers there isnt a bigger high for me
People are saying that fighting against stalkers make game play unfun. Others are saying that it is fun, I myself enjoy playing against stalkers as much if not more tha playing them.
If anything has ever been proven time and again, it is that you will never please everyone. The people that post on these forums represent a small slice of the gaming comunity, and it's pretty safe to say that people that are upset are the ones that post the most and the most vehemently. The ones that happy don't complain.
I myself, fall into this category I rarely post; except to ask/answer questions or in cases like this when there is a call for a nerf that's not needed. I go in knowing that it's a circular argument, and that minds made up won't change, but somtimes it's not about winning but putting forth the effort that counts.
Quit being doom and gloom people, go play, learn, have fun; if this isn't possible find somthing that is.
The Harpers
It puts the lotion on it's skin or it gets the hose again!
Don't forget to help control the Furry population; have your Furry spayed or neutered!
Kellen Wolf/Claw/SR(Scrapper)/ protector
Si'Nifay/Electric/Fire(Blaster)/ protector
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This isn't about not winning.
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Then what's it about?
[/ QUOTE ]It's about having a PvP experience that isn't just fun for stalkers or Stalker Hunting teams.