One shotting has got to end
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2005-12-07 01:38 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
[ QUOTE ]
There are so many tactics to nullify and negate stalkers uber hide/AS ability, but everyone wants an easy fix
[/ QUOTE ]
Here's the problem. Since there are so many tactics that negate Stalkers, do you expect heroes who PvP to use them? Of course you do, they'd be dumb not to.
What does that do to Stalkers? It makes their stealth useless. This is a problem for Stalkers long term as it makes an AT defining ability worthless and therefore the AT underpowered in PvP.
The problem isn't 'whiners' that try to nerf the Stalker, the problem is that without a fair stealth system PvP is unbalanced and results in an arms race where builds are constantly thrown on the scrapheap as powers are 'adjusted'.
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
Edit = condensed for brevity
[ QUOTE ]
Two, I like to think we are special here at Cryptic.
[/ QUOTE ]Yes indeedy! Unlike most official game forums, you guys pop in dispel rumors! It's totally unfair to the raging Extremeists 
[ QUOTE ]
Three, everyone needs to remember the absolute cap on Stealth is lower than the absolute cap on Perception if the players are even level. This means that a TEAM using non-Temp powers but with a good overlap of other powers will be able to see a Stalker before that Stalker gets into Melee Range. Additionally, while Tactics is a Toggle power which can be left on indefinitely for a +Perception boost, Grant Invisibility is a click buff which has a finite duration. So, a group of Stalkers + Support needs to stop and rebuff every few minutes to remain at the Stealth Cap, while a group using overlapped Tactics can remain on the move constantly.
[/ QUOTE ]
So what you're saying is, we have to Team up and search and search until we find several specialized +PER builds, simply to avoid constant AlphaStrikes? That stuff takes some SERIOUS power/insp investments! And on top of that, we must contantly buff CM or stay in a very confined radius of eachother (since Tactics is the only shared +PER Aura available to everyone)? How are we supposed to react to that? GLAD? That ain't PvP, that's Accounting. What kind of players actually enjoy feeling helpless without a bunch of specialized teammates at their beck and call?
Taking a few beatings builds Character. But feeling helpless is the opposite of feeling like a Hero.
[ QUOTE ]
He never said you HAD or were FORCED to team
[/ QUOTE ]For the vast majority of builds, there is no way to see the stalker otherwise. 50% of the Scrapper secondarys will NEVER see a stalker while solo. Castle is presenting this fact as if to say that Stalkers come out on the bottom. It comes across as a disengenous. As others point out, this is misleading given the context and environment of PvP. This is about normative play, not theortical.
[ QUOTE ]
There are so many tactics to nullify and negate stalkers uber hide/AS ability, but everyone wants an easy fix
[/ QUOTE ] This is constantly bandied about. If Stalkers were only using Hide, then you'd be right. Castle, himself, AS'd a Fire Tankers with Blazing Aura. I've seen Stalkers two shot controllers running two such AS breaking powers.....repeatedly...without inspirations.
Kellen, my guess is you aren't fully aware of what Stalkers can do. This seems to be true of 90% of the stalkers that offers counter arguments. It runs the gamut from perception negating all their powers, bemoaning that they are squishies (nevermind they /SR stalkers have better +DEF than /SR scrappers), to claims that no stalkers can one-shot defenders.
[ QUOTE ]
but everyone wants an easy fix
[/ QUOTE ] Wrong. We want a fix that makes it fun for both sides, not just one.
I'm curious Kellen, why don't we put mobs in the PvP zones that can do this as well? Is it some how "fun" when it can only come from another player? Seriously, let's put Bounty Hunter Mobs that can see Stealthed Stalkers and one-shot them along with everyone else.
[ QUOTE ]
The binary nature of stealth and perception runs into a similar problem that mez and mez protection does.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is the root of the problem. This binary nature results in a race for stacking different powers just to get the upper hand (including calling for nerfs). This has to be broken somehow and made into more interesting and tactical mechanics or pvp zones are set to be empty.
Perception - Instead of just making it a factor of how far you are from the target there are many more ways this can be incorporated into the surroundings. Make it so you get -preception if you sneak in from behind somehow. -preception if you are near the walls of a building, hava a cealing above you, under a shadow etc. The target should be alert, but requiring that a defender be in constant move just so he doesn't get one-shot is really not a fun system.
AoE defence should be lowered down. If someone suspects that someone is watching him he should be able to do something about it. A Stalker should need to be very quick in order to perform the AS, if he stays near a target for too long he should be seen. They can make AS animation quicker if this is too hard.
I don't see why a Stalker needs to take Stealth+Hide to be viable in pvp. Stealth should be enough for him to do what the AT was designed for. My suggestion for +preception powers is that maybe they should pulse (like Carnie bosses phaseshift) and let the stalker identify when the target has +preception power on.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are so many tactics to nullify and negate stalkers uber hide/AS ability, but everyone wants an easy fix
[/ QUOTE ]
Here's the problem. Since there are so many tactics that negate Stalkers, do you expect heroes who PvP to use them? Of course you do, they'd be dumb not to.
What does that do to Stalkers? It makes their stealth useless. This is a problem for Stalkers long term as it makes an AT defining ability worthless and therefore the AT underpowered in PvP.
The problem isn't 'whiners' that try to nerf the Stalker, the problem is that without a fair stealth system PvP is unbalanced and results in an arms race where builds are constantly thrown on the scrapheap as powers are 'adjusted'.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that the stealth system is unbalanced. I feel that there are counters to everything, and a way to overcome just about every thing out there, the whole rock paper sissors analogy. If you want to see stalkers out there, then you need to do somthing that allows you to be able to. If a stalker doesn't want to be seen, he can either go for another target or make the sacrifice to up his ability to be hidden. I still haven't figured out how to overcome hurricane used by storm controllers/def. Or repel used by kinetics. The only trump to those is by teaming w/someone that has a ranged attack.
Yes if you want to do certain things you have to make choices on what you may have to give up to attain that desire. Just like when people are lvling and want to get stamina by 20 because they are tired of having to stop and rest after a couple of spawn groups..well in order to do that you'll have to hold off on a primary or 2ndary to get it.
Not to get off on a social rant, but more and more people are of the mind of.."I want it and I want it now"..It applies distinctly here in the game. People don't want to make the sacrifices to attain what ever goal they have. They want to see an aspect of another players AT crunched, so they don't have to build or team to defend it. When it's easily defendable by using any number of methods..the easiest of which is your own damn travel power. In previous posts I described how my stalker was taken out by an energy blaster before I could react, in 1 or 2 attacks that came so quick they might as well have been an AS.
Also as I've said people have and always will cry about what another AT has that theirs does not; I will never understand ESPECIALLY pre-PVP why people cared how fast or slow someone lvl'd in comparison to themselves.
Use the tools you are given, having played all ATs sans MMs in PvP, AS and stalkers aren't the badest thing out there. PvP builds have been dropped by my scrapper/stalker/brute/defender/controller/tank/dominator/corruptor, that was built for PvE. They have also all been dropped. I know I'm whizzing in the wind here but wake up people; slap yourself if you need to..do the hard thing..try to find a solution that doesn't involve pointing a finger and crying about unfairness, but invovles some guile, wit, and a modicum of skill.
Never compare yourself to others, you'll either wind up vain or bitter; because there will always be those lesser and greater than yourself.
The Harpers
It puts the lotion on it's skin or it gets the hose again!
Don't forget to help control the Furry population; have your Furry spayed or neutered!
Kellen Wolf/Claw/SR(Scrapper)/ protector
Si'Nifay/Electric/Fire(Blaster)/ protector
You make some interesting ponts there but I think I'll counter based on what you say here.
[ QUOTE ]
Not to get off on a social rant, but more and more people are of the mind of.."I want it and I want it now"..It applies distinctly here in the game. People don't want to make the sacrafices to attain what ever goal they have.
[/ QUOTE ]
If that's true, and I think that may be so, who is going to PvP?
Since more and more people are unwilling to make the sacrifices needed it seems to me that you'll end up with a small self-selecting PvP population. These players are all prepared to do whatever they need to in PvP.
Players who play Heroes in this scenario will always aim for the perception cap, making Stalkers primary function useless.
If that doesn't happen the alternative is that there will be no Heroes to fight. Everyone who is interested in PvP will play a Stalker.
(I think this may be my first proper DOOOM! post; I really hope this is not what happens but I'm cynical when it comes to human nature.)
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He never said you HAD or were FORCED to team
[/ QUOTE ]For the vast majority of builds, there is no way to see the stalker otherwise. 50% of the Scrapper secondarys will NEVER see a stalker while solo. Castle is presenting this fact as if to say that Stalkers come out on the bottom. It comes across as a disengenous. As others point out, this is misleading given the context and environment of PvP. This is about normative play, not theortical.
[ QUOTE ]
There are so many tactics to nullify and negate stalkers uber hide/AS ability, but everyone wants an easy fix
[/ QUOTE ] This is constantly bandied about. If Stalkers were only using Hide, then you'd be right. Castle, himself, AS'd a Fire Tankers with Blazing Aura. I've seen Stalkers two shot controllers running two such AS breaking powers.....repeatedly...without inspirations.
Kellen, my guess is you aren't fully aware of what Stalkers can do. This seems to be true of 90% of the stalkers that offers counter arguments. It runs the gamut from perception negating all their powers, bemoaning that they are squishies (nevermind they /SR stalkers have better +DEF than /SR scrappers), to claims that no stalkers can one-shot defenders.
[ QUOTE ]
but everyone wants an easy fix
[/ QUOTE ] Wrong. We want a fix that makes it fun for both sides, not just one.
I'm curious Kellen, why don't we put mobs in the PvP zones that can do this as well? Is it some how "fun" when it can only come from another player? Seriously, let's put Bounty Hunter Mobs that can see Stealthed Stalkers and one-shot them along with everyone else.
[/ QUOTE ] I by no means will say that I know that I know everything a stalker is capable of, my nin/sr stalker is lvl 38, and I think I have a pretty good idea.
Just because you can't see the stalker doesn't mean you can't defend against it. I've foiled many stalkers w/o even meaning to. Many 2ndarys offer some sort of defensive AoE aura, but can miss, just like AS can miss.
I think it would be great to have hunter mobs in PvP zones, that would spice it up for both sides.
The reason that having many counters for a stalkers AS is bandied about so much is because it's true. One of which is as you pointed out firey aura, but hide also comes w/an AoE def. sometimes it works somtimes it doesn't..was the Tank standing still?
And yes, like everything else most of the people would like to see the easy fix.
Finally don't group people in categories, 'like 90% of the stalkers that offer', I'm not a stalker, I'm a player. Like many I've played CoH from the beginning and have played several AT's to 50..I happen to enjoy scrappers best, I just happen to also play a stalker, as well as a controller, and a tank, a dominator etc.
The Harpers
It puts the lotion on it's skin or it gets the hose again!
Don't forget to help control the Furry population; have your Furry spayed or neutered!
Kellen Wolf/Claw/SR(Scrapper)/ protector
Si'Nifay/Electric/Fire(Blaster)/ protector
[ QUOTE ]
Wrong. We want a fix that makes it fun for both sides, not just one.
I'm curious Kellen, why don't we put mobs in the PvP zones that can do this as well? Is it some how "fun" when it can only come from another player? Seriously, let's put Bounty Hunter Mobs that can see Stealthed Stalkers and one-shot them along with everyone else.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. The functional problem with the game is that "fun" can only happen when someone has an advantage.
This is the antithesis of balance, of course.
The root problem with the customizable system of Hero generation is that every AT can get some of the functions of another. Doing both your own "job" and someone else's "job" will break the overall balance.
One solution is to make everyone bad at alternate jobs. This makes Teaming required.
Another is to make everyone bad at their own jobs. This make the game less fun.
In typical Cryptic fashion, I'm betting that Hide will be nerfed, and then Perception will be nerfed as well. At the same time, Hide will no longer stack with pool powers and most buffs.
This will "solve" the "problem".
Of course, the real answer is to make no changes at all. My limited PvP experience leads me to believe that since "Hiding" is the whole point of the AT, they should be allowed to do it.
Last I checked, AS simply takes too long to pull off to be abused. As far as Crits? Let them happen...
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
Take a deep breath and relax. If you think the current PvP system built by COH is the perfect PvP system, I would disagree. I love PvP games.
Soul Caliber, Halo, Far Cry, darts, pool, cards, Guild Wars..........
CoV PvP just does not stack up. I think Cov is the best PvE game I have ever played.
I'm not sure that it is possible to make a great PvE and PvP game that lives with the same rules.
If you could make PvP require the same skill and same fun factor as Halo, then I am in.
At the moment it feels like grief fest 2005, even when I am winning. I don't mind getting taken down.
I don't think blindly applying PvE rules to PvP is working very well.
disagree if you want, but try not to be a jerk about it, doing so only proves the point that you are a grief monkey.
I'm just trying to add to the discussion with my point of view.l
-k
[ QUOTE ]
You make some interesting ponts there but I think I'll counter based on what you say here.
[ QUOTE ]
Not to get off on a social rant, but more and more people are of the mind of.."I want it and I want it now"..It applies distinctly here in the game. People don't want to make the sacrafices to attain what ever goal they have.
[/ QUOTE ]
If that's true, and I think that may be so, who is going to PvP?
Since more and more people are unwilling to make the sacrifices needed it seems to me that you'll end up with a small self-selecting PvP population. These players are all prepared to do whatever they need to in PvP.
Players who play Heroes in this scenario will always aim for the perception cap, making Stalkers primary function useless.
If that doesn't happen the alternative is that there will be no Heroes to fight. Everyone who is interested in PvP will play a Stalker.
(I think this may be my first proper DOOOM! post; I really hope this is not what happens but I'm cynical when it comes to human nature.)
[/ QUOTE ] The thing is, you don't have to have a PvP build to win..I have yet to make a PvP build..mainly because it's not that important to me, I make my char. on concept, which means they have weakness. My lvl 50 claw/SR scrapper has jump kick, the only power taken from the jumping pool..easily arguable as a wasted slot and wasted power pool. But my concept was a acrobatic type player and I like the animation.
Despite this my scrapper can do well or hold his own very well in BB or SC or Warburg. I don't always win, and that's ok. People will play in PvP zones or they won't, I get annoyed at times when playing my scrapper which has TP for a travel power and it's hard to melee w/SS/Flyers/SJers..yes it cuts my fun value when I get close to victory and they jet away before I can land a killing blow..or even land a blow w/everyone bouncing around like pinballs, or the blaster/controller/defender, hitting me from way outside the range of 'focus'.
I could take a fly or hover power, but don't wish to; but you won't see me crying about it. Everyone has different tool, advantages and disadvantages, the crappy thing about human nature is they often make disadvantages seem like insurmountable obsticles, and in terms of this game, that means a call for the nerfing of some AT's powers.
The Harpers
It puts the lotion on it's skin or it gets the hose again!
Don't forget to help control the Furry population; have your Furry spayed or neutered!
Kellen Wolf/Claw/SR(Scrapper)/ protector
Si'Nifay/Electric/Fire(Blaster)/ protector
[ QUOTE ]
And yes, like everything else most of the people would like to see the easy fix.
[/ QUOTE ]
You call it easy, I call it elegant. Shut off the Hide+Stealth combo. Now players can see Stalkers without having to resort to multiple levels of perception.
Stalkers keep all their inherent tools, People still need perception to see Stalkers. End of story.
[ QUOTE ]
Couple things:
One, everyone needs to calm down and stop the personal attacks. We're all here trying to make this a better game, so resulting to name calling or bullying is actually contrary to our goal.
Two, I like to think we are special here at Cryptic.
Three, everyone needs to remember the absolute cap on Stealth is lower than the absolute cap on Perception if the players are even level. This means that a TEAM using non-Temp powers but with a good overlap of other powers will be able to see a Stalker before that Stalker gets into Melee Range. Additionally, while Tactics is a Toggle power which can be left on indefinitely for a +Perception boost, Grant Invisibility is a click buff which has a finite duration. So, a group of Stalkers + Support needs to stop and rebuff every few minutes to remain at the Stealth Cap, while a group using overlapped Tactics can remain on the move constantly.
I'm also aware that TP Foe is a big issue in PvP. In our internal testing, my Stone/Stone Brute used it to great affect on opposing targets.
[/ QUOTE ]
so in other words we have to group in order to stop one person? where is the balence in that
anyway..this whole thread is just for people who can't beat someone else's build. theres always someone better 
deal with it and become better.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Couple things:
One, everyone needs to calm down and stop the personal attacks. We're all here trying to make this a better game, so resulting to name calling or bullying is actually contrary to our goal.
Two, I like to think we are special here at Cryptic.
Three, everyone needs to remember the absolute cap on Stealth is lower than the absolute cap on Perception if the players are even level. This means that a TEAM using non-Temp powers but with a good overlap of other powers will be able to see a Stalker before that Stalker gets into Melee Range. Additionally, while Tactics is a Toggle power which can be left on indefinitely for a +Perception boost, Grant Invisibility is a click buff which has a finite duration. So, a group of Stalkers + Support needs to stop and rebuff every few minutes to remain at the Stealth Cap, while a group using overlapped Tactics can remain on the move constantly.
I'm also aware that TP Foe is a big issue in PvP. In our internal testing, my Stone/Stone Brute used it to great affect on opposing targets.
[/ QUOTE ]
so in other words we have to group in order to stop one person? where is the balence in that
[/ QUOTE ] I love how people keep saying that. No he never said that, he talked about 2 diff. Groups: Villain groups, and Hero groups. And the the advantage and disadvantages of each.
The Harpers
It puts the lotion on it's skin or it gets the hose again!
Don't forget to help control the Furry population; have your Furry spayed or neutered!
Kellen Wolf/Claw/SR(Scrapper)/ protector
Si'Nifay/Electric/Fire(Blaster)/ protector
one shotting is fun! keep it around!
[ QUOTE ]
anyway..this whole thread is just for people who can't beat someone else's build.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yep. I've never seen a thread that contained so much concentrated, willful ignorance mixed with such high-pitched whining.
sounds like everytime someone gets one-shotted. /e goaway
Bah, Tp foe is the only way my MM can get kills. Leave tp foe alone. People can still fly/jump/run/tp away after being tped. Tp foe by itself is negligible. It needs holds, immobilizes, slows, etc. combined with it.
I've been tped tons of times and only died because of it a handful, and only then because I was out of break frees. It's a tactic. Plan for it and overcome.
OH and for the record: I've been one-shotted by blasters and scrappers. Stalkers don't have the monopoly. Guess what I did? I went to the hospital, and came back for more. Why? Because it's fun!!! You don't lose anything. I fail to see why people are so bent out of shap about this. Once again, find a tactic to overcome it. There's one out there, find it. Less whining and more thinking is what this thread needs.
having 4 travel powers and group fly makes for a great defense against stalkers.
[ QUOTE ]
I feel that there are counters to everything, and a way to overcome just about every thing out there....I still haven't figured out how to overcome hurricane used by storm controllers/def. Or repel used by kinetics.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then why are you even weighing in on this discussion to begin with? Give me a sheet of paper and a calculator and I could tell you exactly how to beat both of them with any build down to the exact attack-chain and # of slots. Oddly enough, this is the only reason I go into a PvP zone when there's Stalkers in it. Do you LIKE this dangerous precedent that's being set? Are you fully contemplating the results of PvP where only the Elite can have fun? ...For Starters, YOU wouldn't be having any fun there because you'd be dead after every fight.
As a fellow fan of Clan Wolf (I even named one of my heroes after a Kerensky), I have to say, you're acting more like a Jade Falcon. You might *feel* that things are balanced but you're leaping in with assumptions instead of veteran experience.
So let's address the 5 most common myths about Stalking:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
#1: "Keep moving and you won't get AS'd 
"[*] FALSE! As long as AS is started while your target is in melee range, it WILL hit nomatter how quickly the target leaves melee range during the Interruption window(line of Sight pending)
#2: "Stalkers only do good damage when Critting/AS'ing "[*] FALSE! Stalkers' attacks are still a Primary and all of them including Claws have higher single-target DPS than ALL defender Secondaries, ALL-but-1 Dominator Secondary, 4/6 Controller Primaries, ALL Tanker Secondaries, ALL MM's, and almost half of Corruptor Primaries. The only reason Blasters and Scrappers edge them out, is that they recieve 125% to the Stalkers 100% +DMG from Buidup, but that doesn't take into account the Stalker's higher Damage-Cap that allows AS to function as it does.
#3: "2 Perception powers can see Double-Stealth "[*] FALSE! For ~83% of all possible powerset-combos, it takes 3 or more. Meanwhile most builds can only achieve 1 or 2 perception powers...and one of them depends on winning the battles in Siren's...a zone festering with Stalkers. That's what's known as a Catch22.
#4: "AoE always interrupts my AS! "[*] FALSE! Even a /Regen can pop a Luck and hit the AoE defense-cap(5% chance to be hit) against all slow-ticking or PvP Non-Autohit AoE's that A)Don't have ACC slotting as an Option, B)Have an inherrant ACC Penalty, or C)Are poorely slotted for ACC because the 7 other enhancement options on them take much higher priority in day-to-day combat or may even be required to attack a Stalker effectively once one is finally spotted. And to top this all off, the devs will be changing as many Auto-hit AoE's into To_Hit--checking AoE's as they can get away with, SOON
#5: "I HAVE TO stay hidden for a long time and watch/follow carefully before I can defeat anyone "[*] FALSE, you lurk unseen and pick your fights carefully because it's a Luxury afforded to you. Just like it was a Luxory afforded to Illusionists in Issue#4. But the only thing you need to "watch carefully" is your mouse pointer as you put it over the players in front of you so you can look for +PER powers(Here's a tip: just toggle your targeting button to get him, and press whatever button is bound to /info, it's much faster). ANY player with Stealth and Invis powers has this luxory and always has to follow their target around for a random-to-extended duration of time in order to stack the odds of snagging themselves an easy kill--even against a team of players** There is no need for a Gamble on your part, a Monkey who is taught to use a calculator could do the same thing. Meanwhile players without superior -PER cloaking powers, especially squishies, are at the Mercy of anything they get within visible range of, including gank-squads and Scissors-to-their-Paper. THAT takes REAL self-confidence and skill to shine when you're that guy!
**A couple days ago my Ill/Kin "Stalktroller" killed 3 Masterminds in 15 seconds that were clumped together camping our BB-Base with 2 other Masterminds, and I escaped the fight with 30% health simply by visualizing my target(s)/DPS ahead of time without them knowing I was there. 10 seconds later after resting a few feet out of their perception, I came back for the last one while a rather lame Scrapper distracted and slowly defeated the 2nd of the remaining MM's... BTW, 2 of them were */FF. I don't even want to think about about the size of the groups my Spines/Ninjitsu Stalker will be capeable of soloing in PvP considering I'll have Slow/Fear/Mez protection.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
no its not one shotting..one shotting is a stalker asing u from behind. but, if u can outwit one stalker..u can outwit 98% of the stalker collective Elude+/e cower gets'em everytime.
[/ QUOTE ]
But little Timmy is only 5, and he doesn't have the tactical understanding to do this. This means Stalkers are overpowered, and need further nerfs. Hence, you must all wear your shock helmets, and your character randomly detoggles and jumps up and down for five seconds every minute.
I went on yesterday with my squishy blaster. AR/Dev as well, so I can't aim or buildup, and everyone resists my damage. I did get one shotted with AS a few times. But before getting mad, I realized I needed to see if I had anything I could do differently. I could get a team, use inspirations, upgrade my tactics, or use a power from my tray to help. My target drone didn't get past their stealth level; I tossed caltrops in the water and sat in the middle. A few seconds later I see three stalkers pop up trying to AS, and I proceed with a facefull of flamethrower+buckshot+everything else. Made a bunch of dead stalkers. Poor little guys thought they only had it rough in PvE, hehe.
Most AT sets have one power they can use, or power pool they can take to stop stalkers badly. If you don't get one, I see where you are upset, but then do we need to nerf all teleporters as they can get away, controllers who can knock you out of your fly tactics, or tanks because you picked buffs instead of damage? No matter what, there will always be something you will not do well against. Look at scrappers vs storm, villain team vs hero with kinetics, or MM vs controllers. It's likely even more lopsided of a fight and with a two minute moment of helplessness vs a quick poke of doom. Me, I kill corruptors and MM, but those brutes hand me my butt fairly well. Not everything will be perfectly equal.
This overall debate isn't as much one shotting, but people upset over their idea of fun vs. others. Not everyone's are the same (see I6 and ED for example). Since this is against other people who also are trying to enjoy things you cannot always have your ideal of fun. Taking out the AS one shot would mean death for most stalkers, and kill their fun. Its just easier for me to change myself, and meet halfway. So go ahead and one shot me if you can, but if you miss, I'm going to return the favor. 
[/ QUOTE ]
Very Well Put
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I feel that there are counters to everything, and a way to overcome just about every thing out there....I still haven't figured out how to overcome hurricane used by storm controllers/def. Or repel used by kinetics.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then why are you even weighing in on this discussion to begin with? Give me a sheet of paper and a calculator and I could tell you exactly how to beat both of them with any build down to the exact attack-chain and # of slots. Oddly enough, this is the only reason I go into a PvP zone when there's Stalkers in it. Do you LIKE this dangerous precedent that's being set? Are you fully contemplating the results of PvP where only the Elite can have fun? ...For Starters, YOU wouldn't be having any fun there because you'd be dead after every fight.
As a fellow fan of Clan Wolf (I even named one of my heroes after a Kerensky), I have to say, you're acting more like a Jade Falcon. You might *feel* that things are balanced but you're leaping in with assumptions instead of veteran experience.
So let's address the 5 most common myths about Stalking:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
#1: "Keep moving and you won't get AS'd "[*] FALSE! As long as AS is started while your target is in melee range, it WILL hit nomatter how quickly the target leaves melee range during the Interruption window(line of Sight pending)
#2: "Stalkers only do good damage when Critting/AS'ing "[*] FALSE! Stalkers' attacks are still a Primary and all of them including Claws have higher single-target DPS than ALL defender Secondaries, ALL-but-1 Dominator Secondary, 4/6 Controller Primaries, ALL Tanker Secondaries, ALL MM's, and almost half of Corruptor Primaries. The only reason Blasters and Scrappers edge them out, is that they recieve 125% to the Stalkers 100% +DMG from Buidup, but that doesn't take into account the Stalker's higher Damage-Cap that allows AS to function as it does.
#3: "2 Perception powers can see Double-Stealth "[*] FALSE! For ~83% of all possible powerset-combos, it takes 3 or more. Meanwhile most builds can only achieve 1 or 2 perception powers...and one of them depends on winning the battles in Siren's...a zone festering with Stalkers. That's what's known as a Catch22.
#4: "AoE always interrupts my AS! "[*] FALSE! Even a /Regen can pop a Luck and hit the AoE defense-cap(5% chance to be hit) against all slow-ticking or PvP Non-Autohit AoE's that A)Don't have ACC slotting as an Option, B)Have an inherrant ACC Penalty, or C)Are poorely slotted for ACC because the 7 other enhancement options on them take much higher priority in day-to-day combat or may even be required to attack a Stalker effectively once one is finally spotted. And to top this all off, the devs will be changing as many Auto-hit AoE's into To_Hit--checking AoE's as they can get away with, SOON
#5: "I HAVE TO stay hidden for a long time and watch/follow carefully before I can defeat anyone "[*] FALSE, you lurk unseen and pick your fights carefully because it's a Luxury afforded to you. Just like it was a Luxory afforded to Illusionists in Issue#4. But the only thing you need to "watch carefully" is your mouse pointer as you put it over the players in front of you so you can look for +PER powers(Here's a tip: just toggle your targeting button to get him, and press whatever button is bound to /info, it's much faster). ANY player with Stealth and Invis powers has this luxory and always has to follow their target around for a random-to-extended duration of time in order to stack the odds of snagging themselves an easy kill--even against a team of players** There is no need for a Gamble on your part, a Monkey who is taught to use a calculator could do the same thing. Meanwhile players without superior -PER cloaking powers, especially squishies, are at the Mercy of anything they get within visible range of, including gank-squads and Scissors-to-their-Paper. THAT takes REAL self-confidence and skill to shine when you're that guy!
**A couple days ago my Ill/Kin "Stalktroller" killed 3 Masterminds in 15 seconds that were clumped together camping our BB-Base with 2 other Masterminds, and I escaped the fight with 30% health simply by visualizing my target(s)/DPS ahead of time without them knowing I was there. 10 seconds later after resting a few feet out of their perception, I came back for the last one while a rather lame Scrapper distracted and slowly defeated the 2nd of the remaining MM's... BTW, 2 of them were */FF. I don't even want to think about about the size of the groups my Spines/Ninjitsu Stalker will be capeable of soloing in PvP considering I'll have Slow/Fear/Mez protection.
[/ QUOTE ]
5 stars for joo!
[ QUOTE ]
Just because you can't see the stalker doesn't mean you can't defend against it. I've foiled many stalkers w/o even meaning to.
[/ QUOTE ] The latter isn't a support for the former. I don't think you want to suggest dumb luck as your solution.
[ QUOTE ]
Many 2ndarys offer some sort of defensive AoE aura, but can miss, just like AS can miss.
[/ QUOTE ] Another false comparision. First, Hide was given 37% boost to AoE's, specifically so they could nail people with Auras and AoE's. The devs decided it somehow wouldn't be fair if toons with auras could consistently foil stalkers.
Second, BU is reported as giving a 60% acc boost. This will cut through most defense builds and give you a 95% accuracy against anyone without Defense. And if hitting someone is critical, you can use Insights...remember...it's pretty easy when you can initiate the when of the attack.
Third, saying AS can miss like aura's an miss is logically flawed. When AS misses, you don't get hit for 700+ points of unresisted damage do you...you know....like what happens when your aura misses?
[ QUOTE ]
The reason that having many counters for a stalkers AS is bandied about so much is because it's true.
[/ QUOTE ] No. The vast majority of them are false or bogus comparisoins like yours. You compare things that are not equal and try to present as such. Your comparing AS missing to auras missing is a prime example. The best example is the ubiquitous comparison to blasters. But that comparision fails every time because blasters are extremely vulnerable themselves...all the time...no just when they are attacking people. I can count on one-hand how many blasters can successfully kill a defender in a group and escape. Sure...with a bunch of inspirations...anyone can stick around....but guess what ..I see that and I get out of dodge. I'd just love to see the complaints if we gave blasters mez protection in PvP and stackable Stealth. It would have lasted all of three seconds when the Arenas were introduced. Stalkers are getting a free ride because they are new...and making wholesale changes in PvP would tantamount to an admission of a mistake. And I'm sure the devs want to make as few changes as possible so it behooves them to find the best solution.
[ QUOTE ]
And yes, like everything else most of the people would like to see the easy fix.
[/ QUOTE ] You can keep repeating this ad nauseum, and it doesn't make it true.
and FYI, i've killed many stalkers myself. No one said they are invincible. But you seem to be ignoring the point. The situation isn't fun. It has nothing to do with getting beaten. It has to do with the nature of the combat. I have no problem with some sets trumping mine. /SR gets beat up pretty badly by en/en blasters. /Regen gets schooled by controlllers. DM struggles with PvP in general. Defenders are just not PvP powerhouses. This isn't about not winning.
[ QUOTE ]
This isn't about not winning.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then what's it about?
I don't have issue with One shot, but I think Hide should grant defense from ranged but it needs to drop the AoE protection. Unless I was told wrong, it was explained hide grants a 35% defense Vs AoE, which is annoying. In general it would make more sense to have AoE used to flush out Stalkers.
Virtue H&V: CatSquid of Justice-Lvl 37 TriForm PB, Tundra Tigress-Lvl 50 Claws/SR Scrapper, Mistress Khaos-Lvl 50 Dark/Fire Brute, D'Vine Death-Lvl 50 Plant/Thorn Dom, Phrozen Purrgatory-Lvl 50 Ice/Cold Corr, Prowling Pantheress-Lvl 50 Claws/Nin Stalker, Robo Mynx 3.0-Lvl 50 Bots/Traps MM, ArachniBlast-Lvl 50+3 Perma Hasten/Perma Pets/High Recharge Crabspider, Devil's Wrath-Lvl 50 Bane Spider. SG: The 912 Project, VG: Progressively Evil.