One shotting has got to end
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2005-12-07 01:38 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Actually, I would say I have veteran experience.
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That's already been established... but in WHAT AREAS? Because it doesn't seem to in the areas of understanding AoE/Auras or how Perception actually works. There's also more to it that just playing the game -- understanding how algorythems and functions are optimized and combined with a random number generator also plays a big part in looking for these kinds of things and understanding why they're not meshing with consistant design. ..the last part is good old American elbow grease and quick observation. ...judging by the rest of your response, I'm pretty sure you lack atleast one of those...
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As to your accusations that I like the precedents being set, well if you have read any of my previous posts you would see that I most definately do not like anything about this thread..and the precedent for people crying to nerf others powers was set a LONG time ago.
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Gratz, you totally missed the precedent being set. A number of your previous arguments championed victories decided purely by things you didn't even fully understand yourself. Among them, Stealth-vs-Perception, and other such Build-based Arms-races. That's not rock paper scissors, that's just neanderthals trying to pick up the biggest rocks...no paper in sight.
And if you went into it armed only your "experience", then everyone else would trump you because they'd know your weaknesses better than you do. Or rather your stalker would be gank-bait to every high-perception Controller&Blaster that teamed up to hunt Double-Stealthed stalkers.
I was hoping you'd object to the notion that you "shouldn't participate in either because you don't know the specifics", and in a way you did, but didn't pick up on it as being the Satire is was intended as. IE: you SHOULD be able to participate, and come away with a sense of accomplishment in both activities. But as it stands, only the guys who are winning the "+PER vs Stealth"-War are staying out of the hospitals long enough to accumulate any kind of Rep or confidence in PvP. Likewise you haven't lost this argument yet, but you sure don't seem to be winning it either. Next I'd exspect you to chirp "well winning isn't everything"...
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To me not having fun because I would be dead after every fight, well the way things are now, that doesn't happen, no matter what AT I play.
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Give it time, PvP is already a villain activity played almost-exclusively by Stalkers. In response, threads about it are popping up and hero AT boards are beginning to see +PER minmaxxing/advice while Stalkers are already talking Double-Stealth as required for PvP. This is known as Polarization and if you don't keep up with it, you'll find all of your AT's getting left farther and farther behind...seeing less and less wins, and more and more ganks. Pretty soon you won't even be welcome on Teams, and will be ... well, left to the Wolves
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As far as saying I talk like a JF..that's just insulting..if this were MW I would call you a filthy free birth and challenge you to Zellbrigan 
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Well, I'm no ilKahn, but I'd batchall with my star of Timbers to up the ante and then have them stand down so I could beat you just using a Nova. ..It wouldn't be he first time I've done it.
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But most people ARE going to college now. The College Board (people that do the SAT, among other things) recently reported that the percentage of students who go on to college directly out of high school has risen above the 50% mark. I read that in the NEA journal (my wife is a public school teacher) but I'll try to find an online source to link for you if you like.
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LMAO, that's not because a larger number of people are going to college, it's because less are graduating from high school. ..I don't know which America you live in, but it's pretty obvious in the real one that the Haves and the Have-Nots are drifting a lot farther apart lately. Kudos though, I still keep snickering everytime I think about "Anne Coulter 2008" 
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Kudos though, I still keep snickering everytime I think about "Anne Coulter 2008"
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Hey, she'd at least simplify matters by nuking every other country on the planet. *shrug* A lot less complicated than this whole "invasion" BS we're trying now.
Personally, I think a full scale nuclear war would be GOOD for humanity. Take us down a peg or two.
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Kudos though, I still keep snickering everytime I think about "Anne Coulter 2008"
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Hey, she'd at least simplify matters by nuking every other country on the planet. *shrug* A lot less complicated than this whole "invasion" BS we're trying now.
Personally, I think a full scale nuclear war would be GOOD for humanity. Take us down a peg or two.
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Yeah, GOD forbid we take the non-simple way and actually learn something!!! Nah, just f-ck it and nuke EVERYONE!!!
We'll show them, especially the OTHER countries with nukes!! Well, we'll show everybody.......who is left......YOU GOT THAT COCKROACHES?!!
War is the greatest failure of man.
"I'm not scared of anyone or anything Angie. Isn't that the way life should be?"
Jack Hawksmoor, The Authority.
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I maintain that there are numerous counters to stalkers, built into the AT and into the game, IR goggles, travel powers, etc..
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Wow, that's a grand idea. Let me run to Siren's call every half hour to spend 10k inf. to buy goggles just so I dont repeatidly one shotted by a solo stalker all night in WB. That give me GREAT motivation to pvp. /sarcasim off.
The truth is all these stalkers are LOVING their new trump power, come out of nowhere, kill someone instantly, pissing ppl off endlessly. It quenches that sadistic side in all of them. But the party has to end.
Hey when I had 3 phantasm running around, tearing everything up, I was living it up too. But I also knew it was way overpowered, and so did most 'trollers. I remember following the nerf on the forums advidly. 99% of the 'troller agreed with the nerf. But sadly 'trollers attract a different breed of player than stalkers. I would think the 'troller types are the more cerebral, while the stalkers would attract more of the ego-maniac children. Thats why stalkers cant admit or in some cases even see the problem with their toons.
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Kudos though, I still keep snickering everytime I think about "Anne Coulter 2008"
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Hey, she'd at least simplify matters by nuking every other country on the planet. *shrug* A lot less complicated than this whole "invasion" BS we're trying now.
Personally, I think a full scale nuclear war would be GOOD for humanity. Take us down a peg or two.
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Yeah, GOD forbid we take the non-simple way and actually learn something!!! Nah, just f-ck it and nuke EVERYONE!!!
We'll show them, especially the OTHER countries with nukes!! Well, we'll show everybody who is left......YOU GOT THAT COCKROACHES?!!
War is the greatest failure of man.
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Comparing a nuke to a nerf, that's a first! No no no, nuking a stalker would be totally doing away with the AT altogether. All ppl are asking for with stalkers is some fine-tuning so we can all get along. Strange how nobody else is complaining about any of the other new CoV AT? Coincedience huh?
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I have _barely_ dodged that attack, by good mobility... already being in the air when the teleport went off. The caltrops aren't there for damage, they're to make you stick to the ground.
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How about this one? TP foe+stacked caltrops? Enough stacked in one place that the 1 damage ticks combine to take out a scrapper on the first tick? It's happened to me. I had zero chance to react. Heck all I saw after the TP was a ton of 1s floating up at once. Wouldn't that fall under the same category as AS for this thread? A insta-kill with no retaliation?
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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So even Newton, Heisenberg, and Einstein aren't absolutes. It's not likely we're going to find the grand unified theory of PvP, either.
[/ QUOTE ] Actually, Heisenberg is an absolute law of quantum theory ...at our level. In fact it underscores some larger fundamental concepts.
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Unfortunately, neither are universally true
[/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean in the context of quantum theory. The entire universe...is supposedly probabilistic. The observation is a product of the event and the observer. Observation collapses the probability waveform....so it's hard to know what the "universe" really is when you understand that.
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the search for the Grand Unified Theory, which doesn't exist just yet.
[/ QUOTE ] The search for the GUT is fasionable atm. The media likes it. It may be simply just be another layer of approximation like the rest of our laws of physics.
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It has proven difficult to construct quantum models of gravity, the remaining fundamental force. Semi-classical approximations are workable, and have led to predictions such as Hawking radiation. However, the formulation of a complete theory of quantum gravity is hindered by apparent incompatibilities between general relativity, the most accurate theory of gravity currently known, and some of the fundamental assumptions of quantum theory. The resolution of these incompatibilities is an area of active research, and theories such as string theory are among the possible candidates for a future theory of quantum gravity.
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Source
The sources of THAT article are listed at the bottom of the page.
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I maintain that there are numerous counters to stalkers, built into the AT and into the game, IR goggles, travel powers, etc..
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Wow, that's a grand idea. Let me run to Siren's call every half hour to spend 10k inf. to buy goggles just so I dont repeatidly one shotted by a solo stalker all night in WB. That give me GREAT motivation to pvp. /sarcasim off.
The truth is all these stalkers are LOVING their new trump power, come out of nowhere, kill someone instantly, pissing ppl off endlessly. It quenches that sadistic side in all of them. But the party has to end.
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Thing is, the party could end with no nerfs to Stalkers required. Once Heroes adopt +perception as common practice Stalkers hide ability will be useless. Of course, that means that only those who tailor their builds specifically for this kind of PvP can enter the zones. That seems to be what some people want here. I'd have thought that the under-population of the Arena would have been a good lesson...
Once Heroes regularly hit the +perception cap nerfs will start happening, it's just a matter of time. I'd rather see the faulty mechanism of stealth and perception addressed.
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
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Two, I like to think we are special here at Cryptic.
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Well good luck to ya, sincerely. While I personally think that your efforts could have been better spent elsewhere, I'm sure there are people who really, really want to play a stealth assasin.
For my own interest, what's the balance metric? (hopefully it's not something like, 'when the flood of malcontent slows to river of malcontent' or 'when we're tired of trying to balance it'). For me, this underlines the difficulty of the problem - I can't even think of a metric that you would use to determine when a class with stealth and cannon is balanced with another class in PvP.
I'd imagine the devs, who are impartial on the matter (though certainly not infallible), would simply play the game and determine how balanced it is.
As Statesman (I believe it was) pointed out, they don't always bow to the whims of the forum posters. They read the boards looking for "smoke", then test it in-game to determine if there's actually a "fire".
Actually, Nuking stalkers, when you get it juuuust right, is an intensely gratifying experience, and one that can leave your entire team speachless while you bask in adoration.
Nuking Brutes isn't nearly so keen, and nuking anything else just seems like a waste.
You can't spell Slaughter without laughter
All your gonna do is just farm behemoths anyways.
My thoughts on November 30.
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Strange how nobody else is complaining about any of the other new CoV AT? Coincedience huh?
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Could it possibly be because from bloody bay to siren's call stalkers are the only ones that are taking down the mighty decked out level 50 Soed heroes with full inspirations trays
When my brute finally got SO's most heroes were like wow I never knew brutes hit so hard and that took me 25 levels of saving to do that I bought nothing not even a costume. My stalkers are still using DO's because I spend on them, let's face it most heroes are used to villains being easy prey. The odds are already in their favor (more of them, more slots, fully slotted SO's, more inspirations, temp powers more readily available), so they don't take too kindly to losing. I am not saying that's the entire issue but I have seen enough hero whinning on broadcast to know it's a major part of it. OMG I lost to X type villain you either A) must be cheating or B) your set is overpowered and people wonder why so many people hate PVP.
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Strange how nobody else is complaining about any of the other new CoV AT? Coincedience huh?
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Actually, yeah they are. Apparently Force Field MMs, EM Brutes, and Rad Corruptors are also ruining PvP, eating babies, and kicking puppies.
The sky is, in fact, falling.
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The sky is, in fact, falling.
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<opens umbrella>
My scrapper, controller, nor mastermmind has ever been one shotted in PvP, ever, so personally I cannot comment on this topic. If someone does find themselves being one shot KO'd in PvP consistenty, they may want to take a closer look at their own builds, rather than asking for someone else's to be nerfed.
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The search for the GUT is fasionable atm. The media likes it. It may be simply just be another layer of approximation like the rest of our laws of physics.
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More and more I'm agreeing with the conclusion that layers of approximation are all science will ever be able to give us. As someone that lives his life by the scientific method, this conclusion is very disturbing.
Kind of makes ALL arguments meaningless when at the core, we can't KNOW anything about anything. We can only deal in probabilities.
Oh well... at least we can accept that the probability of any religion being even remotely correct is near nil. So science is still the only worthwhile paradigm to live by.
/sorry for the threadjack...
Back on topic, I have yet to see PROOF that Stalkers are overpowered gods that can't be destroyed and kill without retaliation. As this has also not been my experience IN PvP, I'm left with no change, after this whole thread, that stalkers need a swift hit to the head with the nerf bat.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Oh well... at least we can accept that the probability of any religion being even remotely correct is near nil. So science is still the only worthwhile paradigm to live by.
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Interesting you say this since Newton, Einstein, Darwin, Heisenberg, and Hawking all had/have personal spiritual beliefs or make clear allowances for a creator.
*opens a big ole can of worms, officially derailing the thread*
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Back on topic, I have yet to see PROOF that Stalkers are overpowered gods that can't be destroyed and kill without retaliation. As this has also not been my experience IN PvP, I'm left with no change, after this whole thread, that stalkers need a swift hit to the head with the nerf bat.
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I doubt we, as players, will ever be able to provide compelling proof either way. I'm coming to the conclusion that the dev's will make their judgements about PvP balance and someone somewhere will be vocally unhappy.
I will say that I find it unlikely, given the newness of CoV and zone based PvP, that everything is balanced at this time.
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
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Oh well... at least we can accept that the probability of any religion being even remotely correct is near nil. So science is still the only worthwhile paradigm to live by.
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Interesting you say this since Newton, Einstein, Darwin, Heisenberg, and Hawking all had/have personal spiritual beliefs or make clear allowances for a creator.
*opens a big ole can of worms, officially derailing the thread*
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And of those, Newton was the only one who "lived by a paradigm" other than science. Einstein and Darwin were both quite vocal about the unlikelyhood of a "God" in the sense of any modern practiced relgion.
Deism (the closest description for what was practiced by those two) is much more of a philosophy than a religion. Einstein in particular wrote at length about the dangers of religion. I recommend _Out of My Later Years_ for some good discussion of his thoughts outside of science.
Newton was a brilliant ponce. A political player of the worst kind. And Heisenberg was a Nazi (though he may have been trying to subvert their system from within, it's not clear). _Heisenberg's War_ is a good overview of that situation. I believe all Nazi's had to practice the state religion.
Hawking is a practicing Catholic, but has stated more than once that his Christian view of God never enters his work. He lives by the paradigm of science 6 days a week and worships on Sunday.
er... wait... what board is this again? *watches the worms scurry about*
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Deism (the closest description for what was practiced by those two) is much more of a philosophy than a religion.
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Exactly. Hence the "In God We Trust" on American currency, as many of the Founding Fathers were Deists.
I don't think this is a balance issue, at it's core-at least, I don't think that Stalkers as-is are grossly unbalanced, and I'm not willing to say they're unbalanced at all 'til I've seen how things play out a bit more. I think this is an issue of style, and access.
The quick, brutal, one-shot style game naturally appeals to the kind of people who enjoy PvP the most. It's completely unforgiving-basically a series of manuevers to "get the drop" on your opponents and keep them from getting the drop on you. Stalkers are by far the best AT in this game for that playstyle, so naturally the people who enjoy that are playing Stalkers. They don't understand why people complain about being one-shotted. They don't object to it when it happens to them, so obviously anyone who does object is just whining.
People who have a more "casual" attitude towards PvP (at least in my experience) prefer fights with a little bit longer duration. They'd like to have a chance to use a wider variety of their powers, and would prefer to see more acts and counters in the actual fight, rather than in the buildup. They don't understand how anyone can get enjoyment from a 3 second fight-so obviously anyone who fights like that is an evil ganker who's only pleasure is to ruin everyone's day.
In truth, it's going to be awfully hard to satisfy both sides completely, but the PvP game as it plays right now is way to twitchy for me, whether I win or lose. I think that's true for the majority of players. Of course, we could just leave it to the people who enjoy it as it is. But in the long run if you want PvP to bve more than an awkward and little used appendage you're going to have to find some way to come to terms with the casual players who-face it-are the majority of this playerbase.
Stop derailing our science and religion discussion with your bothersome posts about a video game!
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Even though Newton's Laws are, in fact, incorrect, I bet they tuaght them to you in school. Why? Because you can still make a lot of good decisions wbased on those laws - even though they aren't universally true.
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*nod* And then you take Physics in college and they tell you "forget all that BS you learned in grade school, it's wrong. here's how it actually works..." and you wonder why you wasted your time learning Newtonian Physics if it's been proven incorrect.
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I suspect they don't tell you to forget it, since you generally use einsteinian theory only on an exception basis. I think a lot of engineers would be pretty pissed if they had to use relativistic or quantum equations to do their jobs.
Now, there's no assurance that Mieux's view that the PVP zone game is true in the majority of situations or not. But finding a single counter-example doesn't make the rest of his point fall as if you had extracted a keystone. If his perspective accurately reflects the experience of a majority or even large minority of the playerbase, then it's worth consderation.