One shotting has got to end
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2005-12-07 01:38 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I don't think this is a balance issue, at it's core-at least, I don't think that Stalkers as-is are grossly unbalanced, and I'm not willing to say they're unbalanced at all 'til I've seen how things play out a bit more. I think this is an issue of style, and access.
The quick, brutal, one-shot style game naturally appeals to the kind of people who enjoy PvP the most. It's completely unforgiving-basically a series of manuevers to "get the drop" on your opponents and keep them from getting the drop on you. Stalkers are by far the best AT in this game for that playstyle, so naturally the people who enjoy that are playing Stalkers. They don't understand why people complain about being one-shotted. They don't object to it when it happens to them, so obviously anyone who does object is just whining.
People who have a more "casual" attitude towards PvP (at least in my experience) prefer fights with a little bit longer duration. They'd like to have a chance to use a wider variety of their powers, and would prefer to see more acts and counters in the actual fight, rather than in the buildup. They don't understand how anyone can get enjoyment from a 3 second fight-so obviously anyone who fights like that is an evil ganker who's only pleasure is to ruin everyone's day.
In truth, it's going to be awfully hard to satisfy both sides completely, but the PvP game as it plays right now is way to twitchy for me, whether I win or lose. I think that's true for the majority of players. Of course, we could just leave it to the people who enjoy it as it is. But in the long run if you want PvP to bve more than an awkward and little used appendage you're going to have to find some way to come to terms with the casual players who-face it-are the majority of this playerbase.
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That's IMHO, the best way this whole argument has ever been framed. ...Even as it's at odds with my own desires that AlphaStriking remain a viable tactic for a minority of encounters... But it highlights the fact that casual gamers are what really drives successful and entertaining PvP and Head-to-Head gaming... As proven by Counterstrike, Starcraft, and Battlefield.
The greatest PvP games have as many checks and balances set up as possible to ensure that most players can't just zip in and bypass the defenses and/or offenses of any other player. It's not the "1-shotting" that's the biggest problem, it's the ease at which it's being carried out that is continuing to drive casual gamers away from PvP.
...And YES! They ARE being driven away. I'm not talking about the Forum whiners here. I've spent too many hours to count in various PvP zones and have seen too many players already voice their discontent with being "unable to fight back" against so many of the cheap tactics being exploited in PvP. They do it in team chat, broadcast, and some even complain about it in PvE zones to discourage others from even trying PvP. It's the main reason that many AT's, both of the Villain and Hero factions stay out of PvP even though Castle and the devs have balanced team PvP to rely on those AT's also showing up to these zones. ...Masterminds and Dominators are the most noteable ones though in complaining about their defenses being bypassed instantly. So it's not just people facing Stalkers who are geting fed up with 5-second fights. ...You can't learn anything from a conflict when it ends before you've even realized it began.
Any PvP that doesn't give both players the opportunity to change the outcome of the fight, while the fight is happening will be loathed by the majority of players because the majority of players are not Quasons, they're not CircuitBoys, they're not Pilcrows(There's too many sucky illusion controllers out there as it is!), and they're certainly not _Castles_. They lack the creativity or raw math skills to narrow these issues down and figure out what "they're doing wrong". And yes Cryptic is Special, special in that they're never happy with the level of challenge they ask their players to face. But Cryptic is going to have to side with the carebears a little bit if all AT's are going to be welcome in PvP in order to support their design goal of having PvP built around Team vs Team matchups. You have to crawl before you can walk, just like most people solo for a while before they really get heavy into teaming.
And constant Insta-Gank is NOT solo-friendly ... thus it's discouraging the Teaming that PvP was built around.
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Excellently summarized, both posts. Here are the root issues that need to be addressed.
here's a suggestion:
why not allow us to have the option to make a PVP ready character (up to the max level for warbug)? that way all who want to PVP can pick powers that can compensate for what they find most annoying (one-shotting, tp-foeing, stealth-hidden opponents mezzing, etc), and those that only want to PVE can just make characters for PVE?
just wondering aloud.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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How about this one? TP foe+stacked caltrops? Enough stacked in one place that the 1 damage ticks combine to take out a scrapper on the first tick? It's happened to me. I had zero chance to react. Heck all I saw after the TP was a ton of 1s floating up at once. Wouldn't that fall under the same category as AS for this thread? A insta-kill with no retaliation?
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That takes a bit of planning and coordination to pull off something like that. Especially to one shot a scrapper with a goodly amount of hp. Personally I'd applaud such a tactic if it happened to me, say me kudos, remember everyone there, and try to get them back 
But, ya know, that's how I play PvP. "You got me good! I'll get you back somehow!" We all laugh about it and have fun trying to one up each other.
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I'm also aware that TP Foe is a big issue in PvP. In our internal testing, my Stone/Stone Brute used it to great affect on opposing targets.
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If your Brute "used it to great effect", then your Brute greatly under-utilized it. Teleport Foe owns the field in PvP. It owns the field, owns the bleachers, owns the hot dog stands, owns the parking lot, blockades the streets, has an option to buy on all the surrounding blocks, and is able to block any other transactions for a mile radius around the stadium.
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Indeed, I think it should be #1 on the "needs to be fixed to make PVP fair" list.
I've seen three ideas for fixing it that seem to make sense:
<ul type="square">[*]Instead of letting people place you exactly where they want you, TP Foe places people at a random place around the summoner[*]Instead of placing you on the ground, TP Foe puts you in the good 'ol "TP Hover" mode[*]When you TP Foe, you also Dimension Shift them for 5 seconds[/list]
All three of these still gives the summoner a strong advantage without allowing him to force the summoned directly into a trap.
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TP Foe can miss. I think that makes it balanced enough. Second, the person who has been teleported can react before the person who is teleporting. So, in 1v1 situations this power is actually pretty balanced and is only a tool to get your opponent close to you but is not a tool that can be used to keep someone there unless you are one of a few ATs and then we get into a debate about how much players want power combinations and tactics to be limited.
When you bump TP-Foe up to the team game the dynamic changes. Now you have players who can attack the target that has been teleported into the midst at the same time the target can retaliate BUT lets not forget that the person doing the teleporting can be interupted and that his teleport can miss. So, you have a team player who is sitting there for four seconds not contributing to the team while other players huddle around waiting for the target to arrive. What is the opposing team doing in this situation? Right, beating the tar out of them. Now, a coordinated team useing tactics can use it to their advantage but then that was kind of the point of team PvP.
So, what it really boils down to is that for a few situtations that are usually Team v 1 and rare 1v1 situations you want to get tactics nerfed.
I can't believe I am hearing this but that is exactly what Castle and Pilcrow seem to want to do.
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I've sucessfully avoided being killed with TP foe many times by using TP myself, while in Dwarf form on my kheld. However, In that form I have mez protection, high HP and damage resistance to allow me to survive most attacks that are waiting on the other end.
Nothing gives the middle finger to someone trying to TP foe kill you than having TP cued to go off the second you appear.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
I don't care how eloquent your post, how articulate you want to be, Stalkers don't need to be nerfed. I was just in SC and heroes are all over the villain base, in the hospital and above it, and killing everything and everyone, 3 stalkers included, despite their AS strikes.
I was wondering if they were teamed so I logged my hero on, and none of them were teamed all individuals, a mix of blasters, a controller, and 2 scrappers.
4 out of 6 times when I was able to get close to AS position, they were able to interupt it, or it missed. of the 2 that hit, only 1 resulted in a instant kill and that was on a DA scrapper that had already taken dmg from a turret. the AS on the controller didn't kill him and he popped some greens and flew away.
Those that tout that AS/hide is out of balance are full of crap. The proof is in the pudding. Those that fall prey to this tactic repeatedly, are either new or havn't learned how to properly counter.
I won't speak to whether or not the heroes should be able hide in the villain hospital and ambush people that's not the purpose of the thread, but if they can deal w/AI threats, other villains attacking and STILL not get killed by stalkers ASing, then that speaks for itself.
The Harpers
It puts the lotion on it's skin or it gets the hose again!
Don't forget to help control the Furry population; have your Furry spayed or neutered!
Kellen Wolf/Claw/SR(Scrapper)/ protector
Si'Nifay/Electric/Fire(Blaster)/ protector
Simple: block access to the villian hospital by heroes. they already do this with villians not being able to go into the hero hospital. The devs are looking into this.
I just want to point out that no matter what we discuss it looks like the Devs WILL be doing some nerfs soon. Why not discuss how they should do it (without gutting Stalkers) instead of deluding ourselves into thinking they won't happen?
The red name that posted earlier already confirmed that SOMETHING is coming.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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More and more I'm agreeing with the conclusion that layers of approximation are all science will ever be able to give us.
[/ QUOTE ] On a metaphysical level...it's quite mind-blowing. I analogize our situation to a computer...trying to devine the world around it without any extra-sensory input. The very tools we use preclude us from understanding what those tools really are...i.e. Heisenberg writ large.
Quantum theory, more than anything, shows us that perception is a layer. But it also shows us a peep-hole to some extraordinary things. One of the most difficult for us to grasp is that time is no different than any of the other three dimensions.
Another born from quantum entanglement is that it is possible, everything in the universe is connected along some dimensional axis. The distance between you and the star in the sky represents movement along one of those axies. It is possible to reach the star without moving any "distance'...along a different dimensional axis. This is where the "worm-hole" stuff comes from...and folding space (though they represent different mechanisms).
Mind-blowing.
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So, what it really boils down to is that for a few situtations that are usually Team v 1 and rare 1v1 situations you want to get tactics nerfed.
I can't believe I am hearing this but that is exactly what Castle and Pilcrow seem to want to do.
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I do think tactics provides too much +perception. 
How much tactics does it take to lay a trap and TP Foe someone directly into it? It may take some ACC slotting or chewing of inspirations to make TP Foe work,, but it sure doesn't take tactics.
As for the trap laying itself, now THAT takes some tactics. It takes some real tactics to decide where to do it so, and how to survive the time it takes to do it, and how to get someone into it before your trap expires.
But the thing that takes the most tactics when you set a trap is finding a way to get someone to go INTO your trap. Now THAT that takes serious tactics.
Or TP Foe.
Note which of those two I am for "nerfing" in PVP. (Hint: Not tactics)
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Not a huge PvPer here, but reading this thread certainly doesn't make me want to go visit these zones. Though the sightseer in me does want to visit and check things out. Maybe after I level up my stalker.....
Lots of interesting theoretical and experiantial arguments here. But game statistics should tell the story: IF an unusual percentage of CoVers in the PvP zones are stalkers, then there is probably something wrong. They are either too effective, or there are not enough useful powers to counteract them. The exact percentage is a decision, but this seems to mirror previous Cryptic behavior. AT sets that were incredibly popular were hit, and those that were taken by only the few concept die hards were buffed.
IF, over time the stalkers really constitute an unusual percentage of the PvP zone classes, something will be done about it.
[/ QUOTE ]Using this approach will lead to a faulty analysis.
PvP zones are a joy as Villian. I can go in with my lvl 15 crtpr and not have a care in the world. Why? Because I know if there are any solo heros out there....they are in fear of getting ganked. This means you'll see a fair number of CoV vllians in PvP Zones because it's relatively safe for them to go solo.
If Stalkers have no one to hunt, they get bored and leave. Just because Stalkers aren't actually "in" the zones doesn't mean they aren't affecting the demographics.
PvP is a lot of fun when you can battle X v X without fear of getting AS'd repeatedly by someone you can't see.
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Not a huge PvPer here, but reading this thread certainly doesn't make me want to go visit these zones. Though the sightseer in me does want to visit and check things out. Maybe after I level up my stalker.....
Lots of interesting theoretical and experiantial arguments here. But game statistics should tell the story: IF an unusual percentage of CoVers in the PvP zones are stalkers, then there is probably something wrong. They are either too effective, or there are not enough useful powers to counteract them. The exact percentage is a decision, but this seems to mirror previous Cryptic behavior. AT sets that were incredibly popular were hit, and those that were taken by only the few concept die hards were buffed.
IF, over time the stalkers really constitute an unusual percentage of the PvP zone classes, something will be done about it.
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See Ice tanks, FF defenders, TA plenty of examples where being unpopular yet still get nerfed or not buffed at all.
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Those that tout that AS/hide is out of balance are full of crap. The proof is in the pudding.
[/ QUOTE ] Kellen, that is some counterfeit pudding you've been eating. I suspected this from your other posts. You really aren't aware of the capability of Stalkers. Nor does a situation where you have an army of heroes storming the base...represent a justification for status quo. Did it occur to you that the reason they can do that is because they have the critical mass of powers to fend off stalkers? Is this the only time you want Heroes to feel like it is safe to enter into PvP zones?
One of the consequences of CoH/Cov situation is you've created extremes in PvP. Posters on here, are looking for a middle ground. The only time we seem to find it is when Stalkers aren't swarming. I fought a level 30 Brute in SC with my lvl 40 DM/SR. It was a blast. We fought twice we both had so much fun. I lost the first...because he used inspirations...and I won the second because he didn't (but I have a clear advantage). And guess what happened at the end. A stalker tried to AS me after I won....lol. Typical. At least she let me finish the fight...but she missed..because she didn't have BU in her build.
The point is...that is the stuff that will keep people in PvP Zones. Either you enable it or you don't. The devs have to figure out which path gets them to where they want to be.
Btw....do you have Build-Up?
"Btw....do you have Build-Up? "
Heh. I know I do. Getting Stealth next also. lol
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Quantum theory, more than anything, shows us that perception is a layer. But it also shows us a peep-hole to some extraordinary things. One of the most difficult for us to grasp is that time is no different than any of the other three dimensions.
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An even closer approximation of "reality" would actually be achieved through the consideration of relativistic quantum mechanics in which we no longer consider a dissociated array of spatial and temporal dimensions, but instead utilize space-time metrics.
Not only is time similar to the other three dimensions... all 4 are truly one and the same entity that must be considered as a whole without disregard for the other components in order to make sense of a particular problem.
As for quantum entanglement or as it has been called by einstein, "spooky action at a distance"... the ultimate source for this phenomenon still remains somewhat mysterious... we have a multitude of theories which draw upon inspiration from extra dimensional spaces, various string/membrane theories, and infinitesimal wormholes as you have suggested.
Ultimately we still have a great deal of research to do, but when we do have a better grasp as to what is going on "beneath the surface of reality"... then mankind will have really achieved something incredible.
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Quantum theory, more than anything, shows us that perception is a layer. But it also shows us a peep-hole to some extraordinary things. One of the most difficult for us to grasp is that time is no different than any of the other three dimensions.
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An even closer approximation of "reality" would actually be achieved through the consideration of relativistic quantum mechanics in which we no longer consider a dissociated array of spatial and temporal dimensions, but instead utilize space-time metrics.
Not only is time similar to the other three dimensions... all 4 are truly one and the same entity that must be considered as a whole without disregard for the other components in order to make sense of a particular problem.
As for quantum entanglement or as it has been called by einstein, "spooky action at a distance"... the ultimate source for this phenomenon still remains somewhat mysterious... we have a multitude of theories which draw upon inspiration from extra dimensional spaces, various string/membrane theories, and infinitesimal wormholes as you have suggested.
Ultimately we still have a great deal of research to do, but when we do have a better grasp as to what is going on "beneath the surface of reality"... then mankind will have really achieved something incredible.
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Like killing each other more efficiently?
Put me down in the "Mankind is a bunch of self-important children" camp.
Well this thread has bounced all over the place so I will just state my opinion to the ORIGINAL Topic.
* I dont think any AT should be able to one-shot any other AT of the same lvl regardless of build type(if they have 100%hp and no inspirations or buffs).*
Being a great rogue in WoW and a Scrapper and Dominator in Coh/Cov I see one-shotting as a problem in PvP. **** thats not pvp anymore thats not even fighting thats... pressing a button doing nothing. Now a stalker doing around 75% dmg to a caster AT is reasonable(stalkers were never made to one-shot another melee class other than stalkers) cuz they actually have to fight after the attack goes off. Most stalkers in Solo pvp just AS and if they miss or you dont die they run away and re-hide and try again.
Ok now all the stalkers say thats how we win a fight..... Well using one or two moves isnt playing your AT.
I actually dont even want to go any further cuz someone on here will step in and say im wrong but yet there defending a game were pvp isnt anywhere close to being balanced(or even being real pvp).
My last thing is that using 1-3powers isnt playing your AT.
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Like killing each other more efficiently?
Put me down in the "Mankind is a bunch of self-important children" camp.
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Perhaps... but the quantum revolution really has more to do with generating the semiconductors that allow you to use your computer... the photonic technologies that permit the internet to function... and the MRI machines that permit doctors to diagnose soft tissue phenomena, than it has to do with "killing anyone".
Bullets are pretty much classical devices... as are conventional explosives.
Most advanced technology finds its way toward helping society more than destroying it... with some notable exceptions of course.
That is a matter of ethics and philosophy though more than knowledge... but it is always better to have the wisdom to use or not use a technology prior to developing it.
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Not a huge PvPer here, but reading this thread certainly doesn't make me want to go visit these zones. Though the sightseer in me does want to visit and check things out. Maybe after I level up my stalker.....
Lots of interesting theoretical and experiantial arguments here. But game statistics should tell the story: IF an unusual percentage of CoVers in the PvP zones are stalkers, then there is probably something wrong. They are either too effective, or there are not enough useful powers to counteract them. The exact percentage is a decision, but this seems to mirror previous Cryptic behavior. AT sets that were incredibly popular were hit, and those that were taken by only the few concept die hards were buffed.
IF, over time the stalkers really constitute an unusual percentage of the PvP zone classes, something will be done about it.
[/ QUOTE ]Using this approach will lead to a faulty analysis.
PvP zones are a joy as Villian. I can go in with my lvl 15 crtpr and not have a care in the world. Why? Because I know if there are any solo heros out there....they are in fear of getting ganked. This means you'll see a fair number of CoV vllians in PvP Zones because it's relatively safe for them to go solo.
If Stalkers have no one to hunt, they get bored and leave. Just because Stalkers aren't actually "in" the zones doesn't mean they aren't affecting the demographics.
PvP is a lot of fun when you can battle X v X without fear of getting AS'd repeatedly by someone you can't see.
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Not with my Grav/Storm in the area, I just love people who think that >=)
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but instead utilize space-time metrics.
[/ QUOTE ] But like number 1, any space-time metrics are constructions within the system. The universe does not recognize the concept of "oneness." We use it as form of data compression. But outside of us, it doens't exist. So any "metrics" are inherently limited. In my mind, its like asking us to "know" something we can't conceive of. Like asking a person blind from birth to understand color.
One of lifes amazing attributes is the question of "Why?" We want to see and understand things we have no way of understanding. It think this attribute is present at various levels for many organisms on Earth. Life wants to control, reshape, modify the world around it. Odd that we've reached a stage where we can see the limit to the knowable.
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we have a multitude of theories which draw upon inspiration from extra dimensional spaces, various string/membrane theories, and infinitesimal wormholes as you have suggested.
[/ QUOTE ] Well, it seems to me that John Bell's experiments (reality is non-local) point to this multi-dimensionality. FTL communication between photons suggest that this is the same particle on some other dimension. The experiment shows us how to expose, if you will, that connection. Or put another way, how that connection manfests itself in a way we can observe.
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Not with my Grav/Storm in the area, I just love people who think that >=)
[/ QUOTE ] One of the best methods I've seen of dropping Stormies is Howling Twilight. Always hits...drops your Hurricane, guess who shows up for dinner?
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Excellently summarized, both posts. Here are the root issues that need to be addressed.
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Kewl, then that means I can go bow out of this one now, unless Castle has anything else to add. I'll just ask that any further rebuttals only be taken seriously if they're from those who've fully loaded out and tested their Stalkers, or whatever AlphaStriking avatars they may own -- Atleast to the point that they resemble the AlphaStrikers most commonly enountered in PvP lately (2xStealthed, 800+ damage Alphas, +DEF powers, etc). "Gentlemen, you have the last word"
How about Quantum teleportation weapons that only entangle, say, HALF of your atoms and move them somewhere else? Even if they move an INCH, you're in HEAP big trouble.
I'm usually more interested in whether we SHOULD do something, rather than "COULD" we do something.
And I don't think a player should be ONE-SHOTTED by anything, including baddies and other players, regardless.
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The universe does not recognize the concept of "oneness."
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Unfortunately you and I are going to have to disagree on this point for the simple fact that I possess no evidence that would give me reason to divorce myself from the universe.
All too often mankind somehow believes that we are trying to understand external forces and understand phenomena that are unrelated to ourselves in some way.
The problem with such a belief is that we are constructed out of the same materials that form the stars, planets, and galaxies that fill the vast expanse of the universe.
We occupy and are composed of the "stuff" of space-time... we cannot escape it, we are part of it, and it is what makes us who we are and determines what we are capable of.
As such... if man is capable of recognizing the concept of "oneness"... then invariably a portion of the universe is also capable of recognizing that concept.
The particular collection of atoms, molecules, and virtual particles with fill the region of the universe that you occupy have the ability to understand the very concept you maintain that the universe itself cannot recognize.
Unless your intelligence is derives from outside the universe, which I do not believe would be a legitimate argument... then you must invariably conclude that the universe does comprehend such an idea... even if it is only the part of it that exists within your mind.
Human beings are a part of the universe seeking to understand itself... not a separate entity trying to understand the universe... I hope you see the distinction I am trying to make.
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Odd that we've reached a stage where we can see the limit to the knowable.
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I suggest reviewing the work of Kip Thorne on quantum non-demolition to gather some interesting alternate perspectives on this contention... some of it is likely to be very complex, so if you are not familiar with formal quantum mechanics you will probably want to find a qualitative review rather than a quantitative one.
We are becomming increasingly adept at narrowing the scope of the heisenberg criteria... and may one day discover that such a "rule" is in and of itself only an approximation.
The wonderful thing about science is that is it mutable, continually adapting to new discoveries... as such I am hesitant to claim something is "unknowable"... especially when that might very well change after 10,000 years of research.
After all... at one point it was believed that FTL travel was utterly impossible... yet as we know now, such a claim must be revised to state that FTL transmission of information is impossible, but not necessarily FTL communication altogether. Even that might need to be adjusted as we learn more... science is a work in progress, nothing is set in stone.
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How about Quantum teleportation weapons that only entangle, say, HALF of your atoms and move them somewhere else? Even if they move an INCH, you're in HEAP big trouble.
I'm usually more interested in whether we SHOULD do something, rather than "COULD" we do something.
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Your worries began with the fact that we might develop more "efficient" methods to kill people.
The method you have described above is neither efficient in terms of time, energy, equipment, or computational effort.
We already have a MUCH more efficient method of killing people... we use a gun.
Sure we could kill someone with a 10 billion dollar particle accelerator by exposing them to lethal doses of radiation... but why run up a $30,000 energy bill to kill someone when you can buy a bullet for 10 cents?
The thing you should worry about are "thor shots" (i.e. man made meteor-like projectiles dropped from earth orbit onto a targeted city)... not scifi type weapons.
And I agree with you... one-shotting needs to be adjusted
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The thing you should worry about are "thor shots" (i.e. man made meteor-like projectiles dropped from earth orbit onto a targeted city)... not scifi type weapons.
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Now THAT would make a cool reward for Warburg!
I did say that you could use them in solo play and using an alphastrike on a single player is what you would do to a mob anyway. Every single pvp MMO I have played except this one.....Encourages using your strongest chain of attacks on the enemy to eliminate them as soon as possible...
My question to you would be, "Why is it that alpha striking should be viewed in such a negative light when it is this effective on single targets?". And for the record you arent exactly granted a sure escape because even a stalker (who have been the topic for much of this thread) have 8 seconds after attacking of NO STEALTH before they can hide again, now I admit travel powers will pound this to about 2 seconds for someone to eliminate them after they eliminated a teamate or other solo player.
I am trying to encourage teaming, but solo play can be just as fun in PVP because you can Alphastrike