One shotting has got to end
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2005-12-07 01:38 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Here's a quesiton I have: WHY does one shotting have to end?
Here are the answers I have seen so far:
<ul type="square">[*]It is frustrating to not be able to engage in a PVP combat that kills you, people wish to actually participate[*]It doesn't seem fair that a low-risk (not low-skill, low-risk) situation like stealh sniping or TP Foe to tripmines should yield significant game rewards[*]While the ability to insta-gank exists in the game, that method of killing is the most rewarding for the hunter because nothing poses less risk than a defeated opponent. So players have an incentive to engage in the form of PVP that is least pleasant to be the recipient of (because of the first reason)[*]You can't really take revenge on the person who defeated you if you've faceplanted[*]People just don't like to lose, and when they "fix" one shots, we'll stil hear complaints about the next best way to gank[/list]
What reasons did I miss that you've seen in this thread.
What reasons do you think are "legitimate" complaints.
Reason I ask is because no solution will correct ALL the reasons people dislike losig in PVP. We know people will ALWAYS complain about this, so the question we really need to ask (and that Castle raised indirectly) is: What are the legitimate issues with one-shotting and how do we address ALL PVP situations that raise those issues.
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What are the legitimate issues with one-shotting and how do we address ALL PVP situations that raise those issues.
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I'll be damned if I know. As I said, I'm no more happy with one-shotting as a Stalker than I'm sure anyone that I do it to is. However, as I think we've established here, Stalkers aren't the only ones guilty of this.
I think the first step is defining what exactly IS a one-shot and what isn't. Obviously, that's proven difficult so far. The idea would be to reach a consensus on what a reasonable amount of time would be with which to react and prevent a player from being killed in less than that amount of time, but even then you run into issues. For example, would it make sense for a team of 8 Stalkers to all AS the same target and that target survive?
So yeah, I'm really at a loss on this one. As far as I'm concerned, the best solution is to just limit the percentage of a target's maximum HP a single attack can remove (90% sounds good to me) and just see if the situation resolves itself. If that doesn't fix it, revisit it later.
One shotting will be ending at some time, Castle as indicated as much in the stalker forum. The developers have not settled on the way that will happen, but that is my understanding of the situation.
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Reason I ask is because no solution will correct ALL the reasons people dislike losing in PVP. We know people will ALWAYS complain about this, so the question we really need to ask (and that Castle raised indirectly) is: What are the legitimate issues with one-shotting and how do we address ALL PVP situations that raise those issues.
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Being a gamer, one that has played dozens(that wasn't dramatic) of MMO's, knows that this type of whining exists in every game that has PvP.. Why? People instinctively want to be the best, they can't just accept that they're built for several strengths and weaknesses.. There IS NO WAY to fix this, most MMO's with PvP have tried, the only game I've ever seen have success with this issue, ended up taking every class skill away, until everyone had the same attacks and abilities, then everyone just complained some more..
Right now, it's as fair as it's going to get, with the exception of a few ridiculous issues that need to be fixed. I personally see nothing wrong with one-shotting myself, especially since I only seem to be able to do it to defenders and controllers.. I'm a level 30 Stalker with full slotted SO's, 4 dam, 2 acc on AS, used with BU, not to mention I'm energy melee, and plenty survive my attacks.
People lose, people win, heck I lose all the time if people are smart enough to use holds on me, and 4/10 times I'm seen. People just need to learn their way around the issues, they need to think- wait, scratch that, people don't like to think, they'd rather just cry and complain.
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I call upon the community to please discuss the ramifications of this proposal:
The most damage a player may take in a one-second period is 80% of their full hp.
Ergo:
If you have 1000 hp when full, and fall from the fly ceiling (or are assassin struck, or are 'ported atop a pile of trip mines), the most damage you can take is 800 hp. If you have 600/1000 hp left when you hit the ground, you are defeated.
Even if you are a level 2 fresh from the Tutorial with 200 hp, you can't be damaged for more than 160 hp in one second.
Hence, if at full you have 1000 hp and are hit for 1000 hp, the followup attack must land one second later to defeat you.
My thoughts:
This gives a Stalker a fairly good chance of pulling of an Assassination, but a one-second window is a real chance for a good player to react and possibly escape. Of course, this also applies to Blaster alphas and the like. Police Drones may need to be excepted from this rule, but this also solves the problem of being one-shotted by AVs, Giant Monsters, and the like.
Of course, players will drive healers crazy bugging them to keep their hp above 80%...
This rule would not apply to npcs of any kind. They can be one-shotted.
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This is a huge exploit. This would essentially allow for any AT to jump into a huge mob with no risk of taking all that aggro and having the mob kill them instantly. With a good EMP (or more) around in this scenario, it would be near impossible for anyone to die. Blasters would very easily be able to jump into mobs and use their nova with little or no risk of being defeated.
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It is true that this idea would make healing a bit more powerful. Of course the numbers can be tweaked and tested to make the balance right.
Perhaps 20% is too great a portion of hp to be left with. We could start with 5% and work from there. Still, I think one second to flee or heal is a 'cruel but fair' window. BUth that number is tweakable, too. We could start with .3 seconds and test/tweak from there.
The overall Idea is this:
1) It is still possible to one-shot a damaged foe.
2) There is a definite reliable 'react window' that is small enough to kill a flat-footed defender, yet large enough for a quick-reacting defender.
3) An attacker can still easily time a deadly 2-shot, but it takes timing and planning, rather than spamming attacks.
Any other comments or constructive suggestions?
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Having played a stalker in the beta PvP events (and up to 28 in beta), this change would kill the stalker AT for PvP (and it's not great in PvE). The stalker's other attacks and defences are so poor that if the AS doesn't one shot kill, the stalker will die. On the couple of occasions I failed to kill my target with the AS, I didn't get to land another attack. There is an appreciable gap between the assassin strike going in and the next attack being executed in which a decent player can run away and/or incapacitate the stalker.
Shosuro Tatami 28 ninj/ninj stalker beta (the real version 16 on protector)
and 70+ others including 3 50s
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Assuming that this is true, this means that the Dev's upcoming change to prevent "one-shotting" (however that is defined) is going to hurt Stalkers in PvP anyway.
Perhaps Stalkers will receive a boost to offense or defense (relative to PvP foes only) to balance the loss of being able to one-shot in PvP?
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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I've yet to see an explanation for why Heroes should have to team in BB and Siren's, but Villians shouldn't? And it's not just team mind you, but only team with players that can provide overlapping +perception.
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Exactly this makes it is you need a very specific team, either someone has to have tactics and a teammate can have an inherent perception power, or you have to find someone with clear mind. Getting Tactics before 25 is uncommon for all classes, unless they have PvP in mind already. It's also a 3rd tier power out of a set that gives very little buff for most classes, stealth is a 1st tier power.
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Ultimately, the system doesn't work. It needs to be rebuilt to address the concerns. Something needs to be done. Copy DAOC or WOW, if you need to. Reduce the impact of +perception across the board so that stealth powers of all kinds can play a larger role. Allow targets without +perception to see through all forms of stealth at point-blank ranges, but prevent hotkey/tab targeting of them, to give the stalker time to get off an AS if they're quick.
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I've said this before too, if they don't have a perception power then they are invisible, but if they do have one give them the ability to see the stalker in melee range. It gives both classes a chance to do something. The victim might can get a hit, and the stalker can still get close enough to pull off the attack.
BabyKaboom:
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OH and for the record: I've been one-shotted by blasters and scrappers. Stalkers don't have the monopoly. Guess what I did? I went to the hospital, and came back for more. Why? Because it's fun!!! You don't lose anything. I fail to see why people are so bent out of shap about this. Once again, find a tactic to overcome it. There's one out there, find it. Less whining and more thinking is what this thread needs.
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You don't face up against Stalkers yet with your MM, but wait until you do. Also I'm willing to bet that those one shots with blasters and scrappers come a lot less often then the one shots with stalkers. Try to face up against a good one in the arena sometime and tell me how much fun it is for you.
Quason:
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So what you're saying then is that PvP right now is not fun for anyone that's not a Stalker or that is not specifically hunting Stalkers?
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PvP is fun, when it's not infested with Stalkers. 3 or 4? Sure why not. 10 or more? Screw it! There aren't enough teams with counters to stalkers.
DarkPhoenix:
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When my brute finally got SO's most heroes were like wow I never knew brutes hit so hard and that took me 25 levels of saving to do that I bought nothing not even a costume. My stalkers are still using DO's because I spend on them, let's face it most heroes are used to villains being easy prey. The odds are already in their favor (more of them, more slots, fully slotted SO's, more inspirations, temp powers more readily available), so they don't take too kindly to losing. I am not saying that's the entire issue but I have seen enough hero whinning on broadcast to know it's a major part of it. OMG I lost to X type villain you either A) must be cheating or B) your set is overpowered and people wonder why so many people hate PVP.
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The thing is though, if you have SOs slotted compared to DOs or TOs then you should have an advantage. If you have more slots in all your powers than someone else, you should have an advantage. Stalkers seem to have the ability to totally nullify that advantage. I don't have a level 50 hero but if I went down to PvP I'd expect to lose, but should I expect to lose everytime to a specific class? I'd rather see stalker's alpha brought down some but them given some extra HPs maybe to blaster level, so that they could stick around a little longer.
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The thing is though, if you have SOs slotted compared to DOs or TOs then you should have an advantage. If you have more slots in all your powers than someone else, you should have an advantage. Stalkers seem to have the ability to totally nullify that advantage. I don't have a level 50 hero but if I went down to PvP I'd expect to lose, but should I expect to lose everytime to a specific class? I'd rather see stalker's alpha brought down some but them given some extra HPs maybe to blaster level, so that they could stick around a little longer.
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so let's start compiling a list because currently my brute has no chance of beating an controllers, /EN and /Dev blasters or any blasters in general that is stays out of range because my fire brute uses accrobatics for KB protection in PVE. I don't want to be forced to take certain powers or gimp myself in PVE in order to take blasters out. Count yourself lucky with + perception powers stalkers don't have a chance against you. There's no powerpool against, fear, confusion, slows or the fact that I lose all my toggles and get held by controllers without them breaking a sweat.
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Defenders suck, period.. They're small and easy to push around, just like the Japanese, the only reason you're not being mauled into the ground is because of Sony
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You're making me cry! 
I'm not a real big fan of one shots either. But this game was designed for a fun PvE experience. If it gets changed too much in order to make 1on1 PvP more fun then I fear greatly for what that will do to the PvE game. Being able to do major damage to an NPC in one shot is a big part of what makes the PvE game fun. So I hope that the 1 verses 1 PvP game never becomes too terribly important in balancing decisions.
The things that will kill PvP for me are more likely to come from powers that destroy the fun of team verses team conflicts. Teleport Foe is probably the worst offender in this regard. It separates a player from his team and there are no team wide defenses against it. AOE control powers can also be pretty bad but at least there are lots of archetypes with defenses to these, and breakfrees are available to everybody.
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[*]People just don't like to lose, and when they "fix" one shots, we'll stil hear complaints about the next best way to gank
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I've tried to bring this up in numerous threads a bunch of times, but people just want their flamefest.
What is the difference between getting one shotted and getting ALMOST one shotted, THEN almost instantly two-shotted?
So you can take away my one shot from my snipe or AS. But the second attack I have que'd up (and its going to be my second biggest alpha), WILL certainly kill you unless you have the reflexes of a cat and the speed of a mongoose (lil Ace Ventura in there).
Now, I guess we can go through and eliminate all the possilbe one shot scenarios/powers. But ton of people will still be able to two shot you just as fast, and in most instances without reaction time.
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so let's start compiling a list because currently my brute has no chance of beating an controllers, /EN and /Dev blasters or any blasters in general that is stays out of range because my fire brute uses accrobatics for KB protection in PVE. I don't want to be forced to take certain powers or gimp myself in PVE in order to take blasters out. Count yourself lucky with + perception powers stalkers don't have a chance against you. There's no powerpool against, fear, confusion, slows or the fact that I lose all my toggles and get held by controllers without them breaking a sweat.
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Yeah but blasters and controllers aren't downing you in two shots though either. My scrapper that I normally PvP with has tactics by 30. If +perception meant you would be able to see hide+stealth stalkers in atleast melee range then you'd see a lot less complaints.
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Reason I ask is because no solution will correct ALL the reasons people dislike losing in PVP. We know people will ALWAYS complain about this, so the question we really need to ask (and that Castle raised indirectly) is: What are the legitimate issues with one-shotting and how do we address ALL PVP situations that raise those issues.
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Being a gamer, one that has played dozens(that wasn't dramatic) of MMO's, knows that this type of whining exists in every game that has PvP.. Why? People instinctively want to be the best, they can't just accept that they're built for several strengths and weaknesses.. There IS NO WAY to fix this
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Which is why we need to define the goalposts. If our goal is to eliminate all PVP whining - we'll never succeed.
But if we wish to insure that every player has at least a few seconds to react before they die, that could be accomplished. If we wish to insure that every player has a chance to get revenge (MAD), that can be accomplished.
So the question isn't "How do we get rid of one-shotting?", but "What is the true problem with one shotting and how do we get rid of THAT?"
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People lose, people win, heck I lose all the time if people are smart enough to use holds on me, and 4/10 times I'm seen. People just need to learn their way around the issues, they need to think- wait, scratch that, people don't like to think, they'd rather just cry and complain.
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I, personally, see the same issue with one-shotting that others saw with holds and that brought about supression and break frees. Previous to break frees, your only way to deal with that method of death was proactive, there was no way to be reactive. Furthermore, there was limited access to the proactive solutions in the game. We have a similar issue with +perception. I'd like to see an opprotunity for reaction to attacks like stealth-sniping and tp to mines in the game.
How we do that depends on which of the other reason why "one shotting must stop" we consider legitimate.
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Defenders suck, period.. They're small and easy to push around, just like the Japanese, the only reason you're not being mauled into the ground is because of Sony
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You're making me cry!
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Ummmm, I didn't say this.
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[*]People just don't like to lose, and when they "fix" one shots, we'll stil hear complaints about the next best way to gank
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I've tried to bring this up in numerous threads a bunch of times, but people just want their flamefest.
What is the difference between getting one shotted and getting ALMOST one shotted, THEN almost instantly two-shotted?
So you can take away my one shot from my snipe or AS. But the second attack I have que'd up (and its going to be my second biggest alpha), WILL certainly kill you unless you have the reflexes of a cat and the speed of a mongoose (lil Ace Ventura in there).
Now, I guess we can go through and eliminate all the possilbe one shot scenarios/powers. But ton of people will still be able to two shot you just as fast, and in most instances without reaction time.
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Which is why I'd put this reason on the stack if illegitimate complaints.
But just because ONE of the complaints about this issue is illegitimate doesn't mean all of them are.
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so let's start compiling a list because currently my brute has no chance of beating an controllers, /EN and /Dev blasters or any blasters in general that is stays out of range because my fire brute uses accrobatics for KB protection in PVE. I don't want to be forced to take certain powers or gimp myself in PVE in order to take blasters out. Count yourself lucky with + perception powers stalkers don't have a chance against you. There's no powerpool against, fear, confusion, slows or the fact that I lose all my toggles and get held by controllers without them breaking a sweat.
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Yeah but blasters and controllers aren't downing you in two shots though either. My scrapper that I normally PvP with has tactics by 30. If +perception meant you would be able to see hide+stealth stalkers in atleast melee range then you'd see a lot less complaints.
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No but they are taking down my HP while I either run or stay still and I get no chance to fight back, or I get stunned all lose two of my toggles and get beaten in 3 shots while disoriented. I thought it was about fairness, oh so now the complaint is with the +perception well that's easily fixed so why aren't threads popping up about perception being faulty.
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I'm also aware that TP Foe is a big issue in PvP. In our internal testing, my Stone/Stone Brute used it to great affect on opposing targets.
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If your Brute "used it to great effect", then your Brute greatly under-utilized it. Teleport Foe owns the field in PvP. It owns the field, owns the bleachers, owns the hot dog stands, owns the parking lot, blockades the streets, has an option to buy on all the surrounding blocks, and is able to block any other transactions for a mile radius around the stadium.
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I'm also aware that TP Foe is a big issue in PvP. In our internal testing, my Stone/Stone Brute used it to great affect on opposing targets.
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If your Brute "used it to great effect", then your Brute greatly under-utilized it. Teleport Foe owns the field in PvP. It owns the field, owns the bleachers, owns the hot dog stands, owns the parking lot, blockades the streets, has an option to buy on all the surrounding blocks, and is able to block any other transactions for a mile radius around the stadium.
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Indeed, I think it should be #1 on the "needs to be fixed to make PVP fair" list.
I've seen three ideas for fixing it that seem to make sense:
<ul type="square">[*]Instead of letting people place you exactly where they want you, TP Foe places people at a random place around the summoner[*]Instead of placing you on the ground, TP Foe puts you in the good 'ol "TP Hover" mode[*]When you TP Foe, you also Dimension Shift them for 5 seconds[/list]
All three of these still gives the summoner a strong advantage without allowing him to force the summoned directly into a trap.
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Reason I ask is because no solution will correct ALL the reasons people dislike losing in PVP. We know people will ALWAYS complain about this, so the question we really need to ask (and that Castle raised indirectly) is: What are the legitimate issues with one-shotting and how do we address ALL PVP situations that raise those issues.
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Being a gamer, one that has played dozens(that wasn't dramatic) of MMO's, knows that this type of whining exists in every game that has PvP.. Why? People instinctively want to be the best, they can't just accept that they're built for several strengths and weaknesses.. There IS NO WAY to fix this, most MMO's with PvP have tried, the only game I've ever seen have success with this issue, ended up taking every class skill away, until everyone had the same attacks and abilities, then everyone just complained some more..
Right now, it's as fair as it's going to get, with the exception of a few ridiculous issues that need to be fixed. I personally see nothing wrong with one-shotting myself, especially since I only seem to be able to do it to defenders and controllers.. I'm a level 30 Stalker with full slotted SO's, 4 dam, 2 acc on AS, used with BU, not to mention I'm energy melee, and plenty survive my attacks.
People lose, people win, heck I lose all the time if people are smart enough to use holds on me, and 4/10 times I'm seen. People just need to learn their way around the issues, they need to think- wait, scratch that, people don't like to think, they'd rather just cry and complain.
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It isn't like you can't break from holds. They got rid of perma-holding from the game for a reason. Perma-holding would be exactly like one-shot killing. There is no way to escape. One-shot killing offers no chance for retaliation. I want to make that clear, that is one-shotting-from FULL HEALTH. I am 100% in support of a change, now I don't think they should limit the damage, I think it should be percentile in any case where the damage would be greater than a players total hp. Maybe 75% or 80%, something that would allow a player a chance to react at least. In anycase where the damage wouldn't be greater than the players total hp full damage AS would be fine. There is also no suppression or limitation on AS at the momment, I believe they should implement a period of suppression on a succesfull AS afterwards where a player would gain a perception bonus for a limited period, with a resistance to placate for a while. Call it "wary" or whatever. Make it as long as the duration it would take for hide to reinitialize. The real problem is that in a game that has discarded the possibility of being permanently held, for the sole reason of lack of player interaction and fairness, in a game that has toggle drops so that people can't be invincible, in that game, you cannot reasonably argue that someone should be allowed to kill someone else in one hit when they are at full health. And yes that should include damage done by trip mines too, no blasters shouldn't be able to tp you into something from which there is no hope of survival. It does not create a fun atmosphere where both parties get to at least participate in a battle, that is what this game seems to promote in most of their policies. I and most of those arguing this case are simply asking for consistency.
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I don't think this is a balance issue, at it's core-at least, I don't think that Stalkers as-is are grossly unbalanced, and I'm not willing to say they're unbalanced at all 'til I've seen how things play out a bit more. I think this is an issue of style, and access.
The quick, brutal, one-shot style game naturally appeals to the kind of people who enjoy PvP the most. It's completely unforgiving-basically a series of manuevers to "get the drop" on your opponents and keep them from getting the drop on you. Stalkers are by far the best AT in this game for that playstyle, so naturally the people who enjoy that are playing Stalkers. They don't understand why people complain about being one-shotted. They don't object to it when it happens to them, so obviously anyone who does object is just whining.
People who have a more "casual" attitude towards PvP (at least in my experience) prefer fights with a little bit longer duration. They'd like to have a chance to use a wider variety of their powers, and would prefer to see more acts and counters in the actual fight, rather than in the buildup. They don't understand how anyone can get enjoyment from a 3 second fight-so obviously anyone who fights like that is an evil ganker who's only pleasure is to ruin everyone's day.
In truth, it's going to be awfully hard to satisfy both sides completely, but the PvP game as it plays right now is way to twitchy for me, whether I win or lose. I think that's true for the majority of players. Of course, we could just leave it to the people who enjoy it as it is. But in the long run if you want PvP to bve more than an awkward and little used appendage you're going to have to find some way to come to terms with the casual players who-face it-are the majority of this playerbase.
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That's IMHO, the best way this whole argument has ever been framed. ...Even as it's at odds with my own desires that AlphaStriking remain a viable tactic for a minority of encounters... But it highlights the fact that casual gamers are what really drives successful and entertaining PvP and Head-to-Head gaming... As proven by Counterstrike, Starcraft, and Battlefield.
The greatest PvP games have as many checks and balances set up as possible to ensure that most players can't just zip in and bypass the defenses and/or offenses of any other player. It's not the "1-shotting" that's the biggest problem, it's the ease at which it's being carried out that is continuing to drive casual gamers away from PvP.
...And YES! They ARE being driven away. I'm not talking about the Forum whiners here. I've spent too many hours to count in various PvP zones and have seen too many players already voice their discontent with being "unable to fight back" against so many of the cheap tactics being exploited in PvP. They do it in team chat, broadcast, and some even complain about it in PvE zones to discourage others from even trying PvP. It's the main reason that many AT's, both of the Villain and Hero factions stay out of PvP even though Castle and the devs have balanced team PvP to rely on those AT's also showing up to these zones. ...Masterminds and Dominators are the most noteable ones though in complaining about their defenses being bypassed instantly. So it's not just people facing Stalkers who are geting fed up with 5-second fights. ...You can't learn anything from a conflict when it ends before you've even realized it began.
Any PvP that doesn't give both players the opportunity to change the outcome of the fight, while the fight is happening will be loathed by the majority of players because the majority of players are not Quasons, they're not CircuitBoys, they're not Pilcrows(There's too many sucky illusion controllers out there as it is!), and they're certainly not _Castles_. They lack the creativity or raw math skills to narrow these issues down and figure out what "they're doing wrong". And yes Cryptic is Special, special in that they're never happy with the level of challenge they ask their players to face. But Cryptic is going to have to side with the carebears a little bit if all AT's are going to be welcome in PvP in order to support their design goal of having PvP built around Team vs Team matchups. You have to crawl before you can walk, just like most people solo for a while before they really get heavy into teaming.
And constant Insta-Gank is NOT solo-friendly ... thus it's discouraging the Teaming that PvP was built around.
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I'll be damned if I know. As I said, I'm no more happy with one-shotting as a Stalker than I'm sure anyone that I do it to is. However, as I think we've established here, Stalkers aren't the only ones guilty of this.
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Come on Quason, we know it exists with other rare builds that have elaborately combinations of power to produce this effect, like the */Dev blaster ppl keep mentioning.
Yeah fine if I set up 3 mines, some caltrops, and then find a target close enough to my little trap to tp foe, then yes the potential to die lies there, after a series of to hit checks. But thats ONE variation of an AT.
ALL stalkers can one-shot, all. And with a less elaborate set up. So basically your comparing Typhoid as a risk to die these days, to say Cancer. Which one is an American most likely to die from?
Here is how pvp works
Tactics are used to eliminate the enemy as quickly as possible. I see every battle I have ever participated in as fair. Now let me show you the 3 basic strategies that are used in the various areas to quickly wipe out competition by experienced pvpers.
1. Bait and snatch. A weaker AT without stealth (or with grant invis for his teamates) will go out into the open to lure people out enough to get the AT with either a snipershot or AS to hit the enemy with an alpha unawares. This can also be done with AT's with high defense.
2 Ambush, Just like it sounds, a full group on a single person. This is also referred to as a "gank" or "griefing".
3 Seperation, You get your team in and select your individuals with the melee characters and while the melee characters are pounding individuals you lead them into a blast radius of a corruptor/blaster. Not as clean as the other two but still effective in the right consistency.
I know I left 2 more out HUge nuke and snowplow, because they arent useful in this particular game in pvp Mainly because hugenuke can be countered by people with stealth capped and snowplow doesnt exist anymore because of limits on powers being so low.
Now why did I post these strategies. Because they are not only effective but they are team strategies. I will admit there are solo pvpers out there who do the ambush and even some that use a bait and snatch of sorts (blasters are very effective if they have devices).
I enjoy pvp in all forms, because it makes you think outside the box to the extent that you have to use these tactics in a creative way to achieve the goal, the assassination of a player. In my Honest Opinion, this thread is to get rid of 2 of the three tactics used here making it a wall vs another wall instead of putting actual tactics into play.
TP Foe is not overpowered in any way as it is. I went up against 4 stalkers last night to test this (im a stone/stone brute) I did not die even one time until I dropped everything and let them kill me so I could go eat. and yes this is with them ASing me constantly. I diddnt even have to pop a green granted im not one of the squishier ATs. the only tactic they could use to even come close to making me sweat was the ambush, and here we are saying ambush striking is overpowered and should be nerfed.
Now everyone, tell me why im wrong!
/end discussion
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Now everyone, tell me why im wrong!
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You're not wrong. Those are all valid Team tactics, and it's good to see people discussing them. When a disorganized number of players see a whole team in PvP, their gut reaction is to also form a team to compete with the first team.
The only mistake you made, was in failing to address the fact that Alphastriking is allowing single players to make numerous kills against solo AND teamed players because of Stealth/DEF and AlphaStrike abuse. AlphaStriking by it's very nature is designed to let the User make that kill and then flee instantly...completely removing risk from the reward. "teaming up more" is not going to be the gut reaction that most people have when they're the victim of that.
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I'm also aware that TP Foe is a big issue in PvP. In our internal testing, my Stone/Stone Brute used it to great affect on opposing targets.
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If your Brute "used it to great effect", then your Brute greatly under-utilized it. Teleport Foe owns the field in PvP. It owns the field, owns the bleachers, owns the hot dog stands, owns the parking lot, blockades the streets, has an option to buy on all the surrounding blocks, and is able to block any other transactions for a mile radius around the stadium.
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Indeed, I think it should be #1 on the "needs to be fixed to make PVP fair" list.
I've seen three ideas for fixing it that seem to make sense:
<ul type="square">[*]Instead of letting people place you exactly where they want you, TP Foe places people at a random place around the summoner[*]Instead of placing you on the ground, TP Foe puts you in the good 'ol "TP Hover" mode[*]When you TP Foe, you also Dimension Shift them for 5 seconds[/list]
All three of these still gives the summoner a strong advantage without allowing him to force the summoned directly into a trap.
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TP Foe can miss. I think that makes it balanced enough. Second, the person who has been teleported can react before the person who is teleporting. So, in 1v1 situations this power is actually pretty balanced and is only a tool to get your opponent close to you but is not a tool that can be used to keep someone there unless you are one of a few ATs and then we get into a debate about how much players want power combinations and tactics to be limited.
When you bump TP-Foe up to the team game the dynamic changes. Now you have players who can attack the target that has been teleported into the midst at the same time the target can retaliate BUT lets not forget that the person doing the teleporting can be interupted and that his teleport can miss. So, you have a team player who is sitting there for four seconds not contributing to the team while other players huddle around waiting for the target to arrive. What is the opposing team doing in this situation? Right, beating the tar out of them. Now, a coordinated team useing tactics can use it to their advantage but then that was kind of the point of team PvP.
So, what it really boils down to is that for a few situtations that are usually Team v 1 and rare 1v1 situations you want to get tactics nerfed.
I can't believe I am hearing this but that is exactly what Castle and Pilcrow seem to want to do.
Not a huge PvPer here, but reading this thread certainly doesn't make me want to go visit these zones. Though the sightseer in me does want to visit and check things out. Maybe after I level up my stalker.....
Lots of interesting theoretical and experiantial arguments here. But game statistics should tell the story: IF an unusual percentage of CoVers in the PvP zones are stalkers, then there is probably something wrong. They are either too effective, or there are not enough useful powers to counteract them. The exact percentage is a decision, but this seems to mirror previous Cryptic behavior. AT sets that were incredibly popular were hit, and those that were taken by only the few concept die hards were buffed.
IF, over time the stalkers really constitute an unusual percentage of the PvP zone classes, something will be done about it.
Rend this space....
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Oh well... at least we can accept that the probability of any religion being even remotely correct is near nil. So science is still the only worthwhile paradigm to live by.
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Wow. Talk about flamebait. Even nicely worded, bringin in the science vs. religion debate is dangerous.
I'll leave it at this: Science knows it is not applicable to all questions we have about the world, one can find answers to questions outside the boundaries of science anywhere one wishes without being in conflict with science.