One shotting has got to end
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2005-12-07 01:38 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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TP Foe can miss. I think that makes it balanced enough. Second, the person who has been teleported can react before the person who is teleporting.
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Not really. I can TP foe a target, placate then, and begin AS unless they were actively using a movement power or have an aurea. I can TP foe a target with Total Focus or a pure CC power set up to follow. I can TP foe a target onto mines. The only reason to use TP foe is because it provides such a massive advantage. And given that a 'miss' gives no indication to the target and there is little to nothing they can do on the far end if I've done things even partially right, balanced is hardly the word to use.
And in a team environment, it isn't used in fights. It's used to pull a target into the middle of a group. They don't 'lose' anyone to the use of TP foe. Instead, it's a free elimination. I set up above a hotspot or on a building in Warburg, buff my group up with a couple layers of stealth, and start porting people up, and it's done. Even if the hypothetical other group reacts quickly (because I'm not just ganking solo people), they'll still be down two or three people before they can respond, and I'll inevitably have chosen the squishies.
Moreover, even they react quickly, ported into a group, there's not much to do. I watched a group with 3/4 layers of perception (couple of tactics, IR goggles) and several TP'rs chain TP targets from the villain base into the middle of their group, out of LOS of the base. Even hidden stalkers were getting it from very long range, thanks to the massive +perception the group had. The interesting thing was, even if the target got past the multiple hits of CC that followed instantly after the port, they couldn't get away. Why? Because as the first person was finishing their TP, a second person in the group started theirs.
Yes, there's 'tactics' and coordination to it. But it's seriously unbalanced and doesn't make for healthy PVP.
Really, right now, there seem to be three primary issues with PVP. One-shots, easily addressed. TP foe, which can be reduced without gutting the power (as per some of the above suggestions, I personally like the intangability). And +perception, because the perception/stealth system is broken. (and I don't see an 'easy' fix here.)
Shameless link to my own idea for cutting down on one shots, among other improvements to PvP.
Basically, I'd like to see the effectiveness of all offensive powers reduced to ~50% in PvP: damage powers, debuffs, mez durations, etc.
As Pilcrow astutely points out, you can achieve this effect by dropping the +DEF, and having a PvP opponent con at +3 levels: 48% chance base to hit, powers are 65% effective.
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The thing you should worry about are "thor shots" (i.e. man made meteor-like projectiles dropped from earth orbit onto a targeted city)... not scifi type weapons.
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Now THAT would make a cool reward for Warburg!
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Now that you mention it... that would be REALLY cool... I wonder if they could add something like that at this point?
I have 1 suggestion, I sometimes see a stalker, but the thing is their def is based on def so i usually miss them thus i sometimes cant stop them, so my idea is that if a player's perception is higher than the stalkers stealth I think it either shouldn't crit, or mabye crit but does half the crit dmg, but only if the stalker can be seen by the player. Perhaps for stalkers if a player has more perception than his stealth maby let the stalker see a constant yellow glow around the players head kinda like when someone uses a yellow insp, but constant, so that stalkers can choose their targets wisely.
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As I've stated before I am aware of the full capabilities of stalkers.
[/ QUOTE ] What you are aware of is your capabilities with Stalkers. Spend more time fighting stalkers...a lot more time fighting stalkers. I'm not talking about the lowibes in BB who don't have Stealth, or are running TO's in their one-slotted defenses. I'm talking about lvl 40 EM/EA Stalkers who plop down with Overload running...and can hit you with AS+ET....lights out in the time it takes ET to animate after AS hits. Please go experience that and tell me how fun that is.
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They weren't just fending off stalkers but the base mobs
[/ QUOTE ] As I said before....the army of Heroes storming the villian base is an absurd example to show that the situation is somehow balanced against Stalkers.
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I have no problem avoiding or defeating stalkers AS, or stalkers for that matter.
[/ QUOTE ] Unless you have a /DA, /SR, Ice/ or /Devices, you cannot see Stalkers with Hide+Stealth solo at all. That is fact. My Rad defender got AS'd running Choking Cloud...in BB...when I stopped to assist a hero.
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There have been several posts on here by people stating that they have no problem w/stalkers in PvP and infact find the element they add fun.
[/ QUOTE ] LOL..the people who have stalkers and don't want them to lose any advantage they have...or the one device blaster who took Tactics and TP Foe.
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People that fight against the villains are getting better and better everyday at deafeating the new villain ATs.
[/ QUOTE ] I fight villians every day. I've probably defeated more stalkers than you have and I'll bet donors to donoughts I've fought probably about 10 times more stalkers than you have. You know when it's fun? When they fight despite missing or failing to kill me in two shots. Guess how many do that? Like 1 in 50.
I've fought every AT in the PvP Zones with toons from lvls 15-40. The Stalker AT Design pushes a playstyle that isn't fun on the receiving end. Oh...it's fun as a novelty...and that gets old quick. As a general rule, Stalkers don't want to fight unless they can get off a free AS. Once you deny them that opportunity, they won't fight. Explain to me how this is fun again?
ALL PvP Zones are set up to do many things outdoors: Hotspots, Rescue scientists, launch missles, defeat turrets. Everyone of these things sets you up for ganking by Stalkers. Blasters that try and pull that stunt, get defeated. We can see them. They dont' have mez protection, they don't have defenses. My lowbie defenders are looking for corruptors in BB because fighting them is fun. Fighting Brutes is fun. Getting AS'd by invisible toons is not fun.
Kellen, you can bury your head in the sand all you want. You can lie to yourself and pretend that their is some imaginary group of people who go running into PvP so they can get attacked by stalkers, but you're only fooling yourself.
Fighting the AT is fun...when you get to fight the AT. So what if this IS what stalkers do...I'm telling the devs, this is not enjoyable. I'm not alone.
Let me ask you Kellen, why surpress inviso at all? Why not let the person stay inviso the whole time? Oh...cuz that wouldn't be fun. So why does 10 seconds of suppression suddenly equal fun?
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you have said twice that I probably don't know what a stalker is capable of.
[/ QUOTE ] Build a toon on Triumph...look up DaEvilWun....or Endar...just to name a few.
Kellen, do you know why Stalkers are the way they are in PvP?
I spend plenty of time fighting stalkers, and I don't fight in BB anymore, I fight on both sides.
You can't tell me that those heroes easily defeating stalkers, using normal non PvP blds is absurd, when they fought as invdividuals inside and out side of the base and had no problems what so ever evading, eluding and defeating stalkers.
As far as stalkers sticking and running, hell every AT does that when their HPs start to go low. I can't count the number of times I've been in fights or watched fights, and when the health bar gets to half, they beat feet, whether its scrappers, tankers, 'trollers or any other.
As far as my head being stuck in the sand, I believe it's you that is ignoring what people or saying, and will believe only what you want to believe. Tonight alone I fought with my stalker in SC against heroes and had a very difficult, fun time. I switched over to my hero, and had the same fun difficult time.
I didn't have a hard time from the stalkers, though. It was the brutes and dominators that were tough.
I'll start one up on Triumph tonight.
The Harpers
It puts the lotion on it's skin or it gets the hose again!
Don't forget to help control the Furry population; have your Furry spayed or neutered!
Kellen Wolf/Claw/SR(Scrapper)/ protector
Si'Nifay/Electric/Fire(Blaster)/ protector
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possess no evidence that would give me reason to divorce myself from the universe.
[/ QUOTE ] I use this argument when people tell me man-made things are "unnatural." ..."Man" occurs in nature.
But the difference here is that "1" is a symbol it is not a physical entity. I can think up a being called a snootkroodle, and we can all agree that it will represent something...that does not render it a truth of the universe. "1" is our construct. What we use it to represents, may exist, but there is no property of "1" outside of humanity. My thinking of "1" does not make it any more real than my thinking the sun doesn't exist makes it unreal.
The argument I think you are trying to make is a philosphical one. The idea that the mind cannot invent anything. That every thing we think of is an amalgum of some real thing. If so, that's why I say that 1 is just data compression of reality...the same way a formula is.
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As such... if man is capable of recognizing the concept of "oneness"... then invariably a portion of the universe is also capable of recognizing that concept.
[/ QUOTE ] Hmmmm....I see this as putting the cart before the horse. We are drawing stick figures on a cave wall to represent the animals outside. The stick figures are not a property of the universe...the animals are. Just to avoid confusion...I'm not taking about langauge, i'm talking about the concept of '1' or '2', etc.
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We are becomming increasingly adept at narrowing the scope of the heisenberg criteria...
[/ QUOTE ] But the fundamental principle is understood to be more profound now than when he published it. As the observers, we collapse the probability wave. To observe something is to interact with it. To interact with it, is to modify it at a quantum level. We may be more precise or be able to gather more information, but I've not seen any thing to suggest we aren't modify it through observation..
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After all... at one point it was believed that FTL travel was utterly impossible...
[/ QUOTE ] But I think we need to separate impossible on a technological level from a theoretical. Time travel maybe technologically impossible, but not theoretically. But you or I will never be able to accelerate to the speed of light under these laws of physics. I don't think science has ever equivocated on that.
But like you, I regret not being able to find out, what we will one day find out.
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and I don't fight in BB anymore
[/ QUOTE ] anymore hunh? So this is probalby where you formed your opinion of Stalkers that has shaped your subsequent encounters. In BB, Stalkers feel very balanced. Without the global debuffs, squishies can survive their AS's. They don't have good defenses, and they are quite defeatable. While gettting AS'd by unseen attackers is still not fun...at least it isn't the total buzzkill that it is when they can consistently one-shot you.
But I personally don't find the Stalker element enjoyable in battles. It just isn't fun to have people jumping in and out of battle hitting you with massive attacks and being able to defeat you with that. As I said in a previous post, surviving long battles focuses on fending off repeated AS attempts by Stalkers and it gets old. IMO, it's just not fun after the first 5 minutes.
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As far as stalkers sticking and running, hell every AT does that when their HPs start to go low.
[/ QUOTE ] Right right right...deconstruct the argument and then strawman it. "running" isn't the problem Kellen...it is the combination of things. I've repeated that at least five times now, and others have as well. It isn't ONE thing. Give me the option of running away from the AS before it can roll to hit me, and we'll call it it a day. Sound good?
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I believe it's you that is ignoring what people or saying
[/ QUOTE ] Right...those throngs of PvP posts by non-stalkers that Stalkers are the best thing to happen to Hereos. Yeah...I'm ignoring them alright.
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had no problems what so ever evading, eluding and defeating stalkers.
[/ QUOTE ] Sorry...not buying it for a nanosecond. I've been there. Stalker get defeated on rare occasions for attacking a team...just like every other single toon would. Yet somehow this means that Stalkers are balanced? Nevermind...this isn't about whether they are balanced...this is about how they affect people's PvP experiences.
Look, you have your beliefs on how happy everyone is to fight stalkers, I have my beliefs on how they are driving people out of PvP. Let's give it a rest and see what conclusion the devs come to.
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If you're gonna PvP and whine about being killed in one hit, then go to the effort to pick up the powers needed and build your AT for PvP, if you refuse to do that, stay out of the PvP zones or keep on the move.
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Do you realize you just gave the Devs the one reason they might actually listen to in order to actually change things? It has been said from day 1 that PvP in CoH should be open to all and newb-friendly. What you are saying is "Do a PvP build or bust". Exactly what the anti-stalker crowd wants to hear, as it is the one thing that might actually get stalkers nerfed.
Which of course doesn't make it untrue. You do need a PvP build, which is very sad.
Hey, Like I said; I'm perfectly willing to roll up a char. so you can show me how unbalanced and unfun stalkers are to fight against.
As far as deconstructing goes, that's been your MO in the majority of your posts.
And yes I don't fight in BB anymore..I had to start out somewhere didn't I? Actually I've found my lvl 19 stalker had an easier time fighting and getting kills than my 38 stalker does in SC, so if there is an imbalance in a zone where stalkers have the advantage it would be in BB.
As far as running away from as before the roll to hit you..well that's not much of an assassin strike now is it? It's more or less the melee version of snipe.
Noone ever said stalkers are the best thing that happend to them or PvP, don't be dramatic, several have just said they don't have a problem. Check out the AT forums, there are plenty of bragging war stories about wasting stalker, and tips on how to easily beat them.
As far as driving people out of PvP, it's not stalkers doing it. That's a topic for another thread. Why were the Arenas no empty before CoV and largly remain empty now?
I will agree to disagree. Unlike you I'm willing to take a chance and be shown somthing I may not see. I don't know how it is on your server, but on Protector, noone has any harder of a time taking out stalkers than any other AT. And I have to work twice as hard to get a kill w/my stalker in SC than I do my scrapper or blaster, or controller. Which according to you would have more to do w/my lack of knowledge of the ATs capabilities, than w/the AT itself.
The Harpers
It puts the lotion on it's skin or it gets the hose again!
Don't forget to help control the Furry population; have your Furry spayed or neutered!
Kellen Wolf/Claw/SR(Scrapper)/ protector
Si'Nifay/Electric/Fire(Blaster)/ protector
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I'm perfectly willing to roll up a char.
[/ QUOTE ] Send me a PM when you get to lvl 20 with your PvE build. I'll set up some fights for you.
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As far as deconstructing goes, that's been your MO in the majority of your posts.
[/ QUOTE ] Sure...just throw that out there with nothing to back it up.
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As far as running away from as before the roll to hit you..well that's not much of an assassin strike now is it? It's
[/ QUOTE ] Yeah...that was the point Kellen.
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Noone ever said stalkers are the best thing that happend to them or PvP, don't be dramatic
[/ QUOTE ] This is actually funny. You're the one who is finding 1 post in 50 and acting like this is the voice of the people. Kellen, do you think people just got together before CoV and voted that Stalkers would be the AT they'd all complain about regardless of the truth? You think people are just looking for the next thing to whine about and by coincedence they all stumbled on stalkers? Or is just possible that maybe they are not enjoying an AT that kills them without their getting a chance to see the attacker, fight the attacker, or defeat the attacker.
One /Device blaster with TP foe killing three Stalkers one night doesn't suddenly make it enjoyable for all the other toons. A lvl 50 Controller zapping lvl 15 Stalkers with no Mez protection, is not compelling.
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and tips on how to easily beat them.
[/ QUOTE ] I read the Stalker and PvP forums. These so called "tips" work against noobs and the majority of them are wishful thinking....
but all that aside...you still haven't shown me that people enjoy this. This a game played for enjoyment. You just continually want to sweep that aside.
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Noone ever said stalkers are the best thing that happend to them or PvP
[/ QUOTE ] that's right...and many people feel they could be the worst thing that's happened to PvP.
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Why were the Arenas no empty before CoV and largly remain empty now?
[/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure what you mean here. The Arenas were dead on Triumph. The Arenas were dead on Pinnacle. The PvP league had to go to the Test sever to find enough people to actually have a league. The Arenas were largely ignored because there was nothing to be gained by it. PvP Zones offer a lot. Badges, Missions, Powers, new content, and PvP.
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Unlike you I'm willing to take a chance and be shown somthing I may not see.
[/ QUOTE ] Unlike me? Where did you pull that statement out of? Just making stuff up now?
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And I have to work twice as hard to get a kill w/my stalker in SC than I do my scrapper or blaster, or controller
[/ QUOTE ] Well, I don't know what to tell you. The testimony says Stalkers do far better in SC than any other AT. I know /Nrg blasters can be pretty nasty. Thank god that isn't an AT hunh?
The devs can data mine the stats on what AT's collect the most bounty....I'd love for them to share it.
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Which according to you would have more to do w/my lack of knowledge of the ATs capabilities, than w/the AT itself.
[/ QUOTE ] Well, let's meet on the test Server. I'll bring my squishies and we'll see how many counter attacks they get while trying to win a Hot Spot....or should I never stop to fight a battle in PvP?
Earlier you said people were looking for the easy fix....but you know what's funny? Stalkers got the easy fix didn't they? One shot kills, massive unresisted damage, Hide + Stealth, Toggle Dropping, Mez Protection, Scrapper level defense, if not better, Auto hit ranged Placate.
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As the observers, we collapse the probability wave.
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This would be considered a dangerous statement to make under some circles as there is still a debate as to what exactly constitutes an "observer".
Some are inclined to believe that only a conscious rational being can fill that role... I am not in that camp.
From a physical standpoint all particles may be regarded as both an observer and an observable dependent upon the flow of information within a system.
When a system is completely isolated from outside interaction we suddenly enter into a novel realm where interesting quantum effects crop up... and it has nothing to do with whether or not a human being is watching.
The argument I am trying to make is a philosophical one... specifically it is a metaphysical one... but in that sense you are arguing a metaphysical position as well.
The position you are arguing is that science has proven that the universe is unknowable and that we have been reduced to an Aristotelian mode of exploring shadowy forms that are mere representations of the "truth".
While that is an interesting thought, and one that is difficult to argue against, I might very well revert to Descartes and assert that the only thing of which we may be certain is our own existence (i.e. I think therefore I am).
Ultimately these are nice thoughts... but they do not get us anywhere.
I am functioning under the axiom that I am a part of the universe (albeit an infinitesimal portion there of)... I am functioning under the assumption that the senses can be trusted given repeated experiments (A stance held by and advanced by Hume)... This is the realm where science prevails, the realm of sensory experience.
Sure I cannot "prove" that reality is not a figment of my own imagination... but that is unimportant once I realize that fact and move on... it is completely permissible to accept once experience as "real" and to make progress from there.
So long as reality functions under certain guidelines of causality and predictability science will always be able to garner a deeper understanding of how the universe functions.
Quantum mechanics sets up boundary conditions for the level of predictability we may obtain, and when it is relativized we obtain methods to determine the direction of causality dependent upon the reference frame of interest.
The Heisenburg criteria says something very deep about the universe... just as Schrodinger's equation informs us of something very meaningful about how reality functions.
Yet these two ideas are not the final word on the matter... new ideas are being tested all the time... new experiments performed to determine just how "true" those assertions might be.
Please keep in mind that there is no aposteriori means to develop Schrodinger's differential wave equation... it is taken as "fact" and then the rest of quantum mechanics is developed around it.
There is nothing inherently "true" about that formulation when we cannot yet prove whether or not this equation is also an approximation that requires higher order corrections... and most theoretical physicists would assert that it does... which leads into a great many TOE's and GUT's... each of which offers varied analysis of what can be known... and what cannot.
By the way... I am really loving this conversation, but if for any reason I have mentioned something with which you are not familiar please let me know and I would be happy to explain. I am going under the assumption that you know what I am talking about though since you seem to be very well versed in this particular topic.
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But I think we need to separate impossible on a technological level from a theoretical.
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Unfortunately mankind has a flawed background at predicting what is "impossible"... it is entirel dependent upon the information available in a particular era.
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But you or I will never be able to accelerate to the speed of light under these laws of physics.
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Special relativity does indeed set up this parameter... but that does not indicate that there is not a technological method by which to circumvent this criteria.
Under normal spatial conditions the speed of light in a vacuum is asserted to be 3 x 10^8 m/s (actually slightly less, but for the sake of argument we will keep the numbers simple).
Yet theory does not preclude us from adjusting the conditions of space itself such that the speed of light in a particular region is actually "faster" than this.
If we were to reduce or increase the permittivity or permeability of free space in a particular region the "constant" speed of light would be altered and thus it would be possible to move at 4 x 10^8 m/s all without violating the relativistic condition.
Whether or not it is technologically feasible to alter the properties of space-time is a very different issue... and one which we will not know the answer to for some time if ever.
What it really comes down to is that a "law" of nature does not necessarily mean what we think it means upon first glance... sure it may be impossible to travel faster than the speed of light... but the equations involved do not actually require the speed of light to be equal to one particular value.
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Earlier you said people were looking for the easy fix....but you know what's funny? Stalkers got the easy fix didn't they? One shot kills, massive unresisted damage, Hide + Stealth, Toggle Dropping, Mez Protection, Scrapper level defense, if not better, Auto hit ranged Placate.
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What?!?!? They don't have any protection as rabid one shot kill fans claim!!! 
It's easy to avoid the AS! Keep moving...the fact that you can be killed when the animation starts, even if you ran a hundred yards away from the stalker doesn't matter!.....you were killed by....ummm....elves!!! That's right!!!........and lets not forget, use AS, what if it fails?, No problem! Placate for t3h win!1!
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Illu Troller: OMG!!! NO FAIR! He can use the IR goggles+Tactics and see through my Superior Invis! That's not fair!
I guarantee this will happen.
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I can guarantee it wont.
Villains took Siren's a few times on Virtue.
No IR goggles in the villain store.
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Yep. My VG took it once when I was there. Nada IR goggles.
Anyway, as a stalker, I feel the only ones really at risk of being 'one-shotted' are trollers who arent in an average grp (and, just going back and looking thru all the con powersets, they each have some way to avoid it.) And i will be the first to admit it, holds are very gimped pvp wise and will always be unless they get an acc buff or breakfrees are removed. Sorry, thats the way it is. But, if your in a pvp zone without a group, you deserve to be killed.
Now, having said that, any semi-organized grp of 3 or more will, odds are, have someone with an aura/leadership/something that helps against stalkers. And, if you are in a big battle, chances are theres enuff auras to keep us unhidden. Its only when you go along the fringes by yourself without a stalker-counter power that you get in trouble. And thats your fault.
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Are we talking about PvP here or did you just try and solo Requiem at level 10?
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Yea, is this a PvP rant? If so, then what exactly would a melee AT with low defenses and stealth (Stalkers) hope to accomplish in PvP beyond just getting crushed? Also, I've been on the receiving end of an AS before as a squishy and many times I live.
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The same thing a MM has to do?
no my offer was to make up a villain to run with YOUR stalker to see how they dominate and ruin other peoples fun.
Nothing to back it up..all somone has to do is read your posts.
So w/o AS what do you want to the roll of the AT to be, or do you want the whole at to go away?
No, I'm not finding 1 post in 50, there are several post mixed in amongst the general whining. You say the post are by and large from people that play stalkers that don't want their AT nerfed.
I say the majority of posts are from people that have probably never played the AT, or new and don't know how to deal with the new AT and want them nerfed because they have gotten beaten.
Many people feel that they are the worst thing to happen? These forum represent a minority of the population, and as a general rule happy people don't post to complain, or post in general.
I haven't shown you that people enjoy this? There are many people that enjoy this AT, both playing and fighting against it, they've posted, I've posted. [ QUOTE ]
Earlier you said people were looking for the easy fix....but you know what's funny? Stalkers got the easy fix didn't they? One shot kills, massive unresisted damage, Hide + Stealth, Toggle Dropping, Mez Protection, Scrapper level defense, if not better, Auto hit ranged Placate.
[/ QUOTE ] Lol this is a joke right? Blasters and scrappers, and tankers blast through that defense when a stalker stands to fight. Massive unresisted damage? Lethal damage is one of the most resisted damage types in the game. In the one of the last patches the Devs dropped the effectiveness of mez protection. Each stalker AT also has holes in their Status defense. As far as the auto placate, most of the time, fighting an effective player, this power gets trumped easily..how? by continually backing away for the 10 sec. it lasts. By and large it can only be used as an escape power. How do I know this? By playing both a stalker and against stalkers. No PvP bld is needed.
Like I said, let me check out how you work your stalker. what's your build, or do you have one? I seriously hope you do because if you don't I've wasted my time talking to you. Until youv'e played against it AND played it, you can't truly know how whether it's over powered or not.
Yes, again, people will be unhappy, you will never find this utopian PvP; once stalkers get nerfed, they will move on to complaing about some other AT/power that they get beaten by. You give people too much credit I'm thinking.
You think I am wrong? People have been catcalling for a nerf to one thing or another since the beginning of this game, long before people started competing. Simply because another AT could do things theirs couldn't.
The Harpers
It puts the lotion on it's skin or it gets the hose again!
Don't forget to help control the Furry population; have your Furry spayed or neutered!
Kellen Wolf/Claw/SR(Scrapper)/ protector
Si'Nifay/Electric/Fire(Blaster)/ protector
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Massive unresisted damage? Lethal damage is one of the most resisted damage types in the game.
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Except for the fact that critical damage is completely unresistable... and guess what 86% of an AS is?... it is critical which means 86% of that AS cuts through any resistance the target may have as if it was not there at all.
That is what they meant by massive unresisted damage.
Sure a stalkers regular attacks are resistable... but when was the last time you saw one stick around to offer the resisted damage?... they make their unresistable attack and then run for the hills.
The statement is absolutely correct... what it's implications are though is an entirely different matter.
I guess if I really wanted to I could be a stalker and AS to my hearts desire.
I'm calling for a nerf of zones who's initals are "S" and "C"
Just Lucky that way...
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Not a huge PvPer here, but reading this thread certainly doesn't make me want to go visit these zones. Though the sightseer in me does want to visit and check things out. Maybe after I level up my stalker.....
Lots of interesting theoretical and experiantial arguments here. But game statistics should tell the story: IF an unusual percentage of CoVers in the PvP zones are stalkers, then there is probably something wrong. They are either too effective, or there are not enough useful powers to counteract them. The exact percentage is a decision, but this seems to mirror previous Cryptic behavior. AT sets that were incredibly popular were hit, and those that were taken by only the few concept die hards were buffed.
IF, over time the stalkers really constitute an unusual percentage of the PvP zone classes, something will be done about it.
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See Ice tanks, FF defenders, TA plenty of examples where being unpopular yet still get nerfed or not buffed at all.
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Global draw down on defense obviously hurt the defense sets. They weren't aimed at the particular groups. Not like the Inv or Regen changes. And certain sets have been boosted to actual playablility, ie Dark.
Rend this space....
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Are we talking about PvP here or did you just try and solo Requiem at level 10?
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Yea, is this a PvP rant? If so, then what exactly would a melee AT with low defenses and stealth (Stalkers) hope to accomplish in PvP beyond just getting crushed? Also, I've been on the receiving end of an AS before as a squishy and many times I live.
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The same thing a MM has to do?
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To say nothing of the fact that "low defenses" is apparantly not true at all. Everything I'm hearing and reading says Stalker Defenses=Scrapper defenses. Thats not low by any reasonable definition of the word.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
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Rhiannon Bel
Verified
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Villains
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Illuminance
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A large chunk of the people whinning to have AS nerfed have never even beened AS'ed before and have NO experience to pull from. ie, wasted opinions.
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To say nothing of the fact that "low defenses" is apparantly not true at all. Everything I'm hearing and reading says Stalker Defenses=Scrapper defenses. Thats not low by any reasonable definition of the word.
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"low defenses" is actually true under some circumstances... here is how it happens... a player realizes that with Hide + Stealth + Placate + AS... they only need to be able to survive 10 seconds in order to be safe.
As such they load up on powers that support their "main" strategy... and completely ignore slotting their defensive powers, just leaving them with the base slot and maybe 1 more.
So yes... scrapper level defenses when the powers are completely unslotted is "low"... but stalker defenses are not low because they must be... they are low because the aformentioned strategy is often so fool proof that there is no reason to slot for the better defenses that are capable of.
It would be like a tanker refusing to take any of their primary powers and then claiming they can't take a hit or stand toe to toe with the enemy.... sure it might be true... but they built themselves that way on purpose.
Lol, I don't even know where to start w/that one..my SR stalker has all of his defenses fully slotted, 3 def SO 1 end red. and I've taken every def. avail to me. I still cannot stand toe to toe long w/other ATs, and I shouldn't be able to, that's not what the AT was designed for.
My PvE built SR scrapper, w/no pool powers other than travel, fitness, and JK from jumping has no problem what so ever fighting stalkers. Sure if they get an AS on me, I'm hurting and somtimes die, but if I get some space and keep moving when they placate to follow up they cannot set up another AS.
As usual when a nerf is called for, instead of people actually playing the AT the majority just jump on the band wagon and make assumptions of how it is.
When I play my blaster or controller, I find that all I really need to do is keep moving and I avoid getting AS'd. but those ATs should keep moving to keep their range adavantage. If I stop for a long period of time, then yeah, I'll more than likely get AS'd.
The Harpers
It puts the lotion on it's skin or it gets the hose again!
Don't forget to help control the Furry population; have your Furry spayed or neutered!
Kellen Wolf/Claw/SR(Scrapper)/ protector
Si'Nifay/Electric/Fire(Blaster)/ protector
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Lol, I don't even know where to start w/that one
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What is there to say?... if stalker defensive sets have the same base values in their powers as the associated scrapper sets, how can any stalker claim that they are "squishy" but that scrappers have great defenses?
The ONLY way to make such an argument is if the stalker in question has ignored their defenses entirely... either that or they are lying... or scrappers are squishy too.
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As usual when a nerf is called for, instead of people actually playing the AT the majority just jump on the band wagon and make assumptions of how it is.
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I play a stalker... I do NOT think they are as feeble as some stalkers seem to be claiming in an effort to set up a "nerf defense argument".
Tell me... do you think stalkers are squishy?... and if so, do you think the base numbers in the defensive sets are comparable to the scrapper base numbers?
Sure they have less HP... but they only have marginally less HP, it is on the order of 85% scrapper HP... not exactly a pitiful number.
If the stalker defensive sets base numbers are much less than that of stalkers then the argument is different... but so far as all the data I have seen, they are pretty much the same.
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Those that tout that AS/hide is out of balance are full of crap. The proof is in the pudding.
[/ QUOTE ] Kellen, that is some counterfeit pudding you've been eating. I suspected this from your other posts. You really aren't aware of the capability of Stalkers. Nor does a situation where you have an army of heroes storming the base...represent a justification for status quo. Did it occur to you that the reason they can do that is because they have the critical mass of powers to fend off stalkers? Is this the only time you want Heroes to feel like it is safe to enter into PvP zones?
One of the consequences of CoH/Cov situation is you've created extremes in PvP. Posters on here, are looking for a middle ground. The only time we seem to find it is when Stalkers aren't swarming. I fought a level 30 Brute in SC with my lvl 40 DM/SR. It was a blast. We fought twice we both had so much fun. I lost the first...because he used inspirations...and I won the second because he didn't (but I have a clear advantage). And guess what happened at the end. A stalker tried to AS me after I won....lol. Typical. At least she let me finish the fight...but she missed..because she didn't have BU in her build.
The point is...that is the stuff that will keep people in PvP Zones. Either you enable it or you don't. The devs have to figure out which path gets them to where they want to be.
Btw....do you have Build-Up?
[/ QUOTE ] Yes, I have build up. As I've stated before I am aware of the full capabilities of stalkers. While I was taking dirt nap, I was able to view the powers of the builds used by the heroes, and w/the exception of the scrapper named "PVP" they all had straight forward builds like anyone would make for PvE, nothing special. A couple had bought IR goggles, as the only type of "bonus PvP" attribute.
They weren't just fending off stalkers but the base mobs, and villains, a mixed bag of villains not just stalkers and not just fending off, but defeating them. There have been several posts on here by people stating that they have no problem w/stalkers in PvP and infact find the element they add fun. When I play a hero, I have no problem avoiding or defeating stalkers AS, or stalkers for that matter.
People that fight against the villains are getting better and better everyday at deafeating the new villain ATs. The ones that get caught unaware and cry foul and no fun for the most part, are new and do not use any tactics.
What server is your stalker on, I would like to build a char, go to SC w/you and see how you dominate and ruin peoples fun. Not saying you can't do it, but you have said twice that I probably don't know what a stalker is capable of. Well I would like you to show me what you think I'm missing.
The Harpers
It puts the lotion on it's skin or it gets the hose again!
Don't forget to help control the Furry population; have your Furry spayed or neutered!
Kellen Wolf/Claw/SR(Scrapper)/ protector
Si'Nifay/Electric/Fire(Blaster)/ protector