One shotting has got to end
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2005-12-07 01:38 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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A large chunk of the people whinning to have AS nerfed have never even beened AS'ed before and have NO experience to pull from. ie, wasted opinions.
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A large chunk of the people maiking claims about what a large chunk of people have said or done have nothing more to back their statements than their fervent belief that what they assume to be true IS true.
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No, I do not think they squishy, and would never argue that they are. They do have fewer HP..less than 85% of a scrappers as you say. And on the defensive side, their numbers are lower, especially when it comes to the Ninjitsu set, the trade of for that, is they have utility.
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I do not think they are squishy either... and I just did a test to find out about the HP situation... it is NOT less than 85%.
I went to warburg and here is the data I collected :
Scrapper HP = 1165
Tanker HP = 1630
Blaster HP = 1050
Controller HP = 885
Brute HP = 1305
Corruptor HP = 930
Master Mind HP = 700
I was unable to get a direct number for stalkers as they are hidden and hence cannot be checked up on.
However, from what I have seen they are on the same HP schedual as blasters, and certainly have more than corruptors.
Therefore I am going to assume that a lvl 38 stalker has 1050 HP... or at the very least more than 930.
That means they have 90% the HP of a scrapper (and certainly not less than 80%... which means my saying "on the order of 85%" was right on target)... if your info is wrong about the hit points... exactly why am I to believe that your info about the defenses is correct?
Given this data it is reasonable to conclude that stalkers possess roughly 85-90% the defensive capacity of a scrapper... so why do we keep hearing how terrible stalker defenses are?
Regen is generally considered one of the best scrapper sets... why would 90% of that suddenly become seen as squishy?
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This would be considered a dangerous statement to make under some circles as there is still a debate as to what exactly constitutes an "observer".
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Yes. Little of the physics at this level is universely accepted. But you restated what I meant...
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Quantum mechanics sets up boundary conditions for the level of predictability we may obtain, and when it is relativized we obtain methods to determine the direction of causality dependent upon the reference frame of interest.
[/ QUOTE ] Definitely. Which is why I used the non-descript "observer." I have no way of knowing how a photon "observes" a gravity well. We know how it affects the photon, but that is just another one of our observations.
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Ultimately these are nice thoughts... but they do not get us anywhere.
[/ QUOTE ] Completely agree. Which is why I bring up the concept of "1." If we understand that our analogues are simply that, it may lift the veil. As you state..
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What it really comes down to is that a "law" of nature does not necessarily mean what we think it means upon first glance..
[/ QUOTE ] This is what I am hinting at, but at a more fundamental level. Check out G J Chaitin's papers on irreducibility in mathmatics (if you haven't already).
This whole tangent was sparked, IIRC by Quason's statements about the "universe" and I am merely pointing out that we really don't know what it is.
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I am functioning under the axiom...
[/ QUOTE ] Whatever the underlying truth, I am typing a mesasge on the Internet. Regardless of what that means to the "universe," it means something to me. Even if this is all local phenomenon, it's all I've got.
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I am going under the assumption that you know what I am talking about
[/ QUOTE ] The first rule of quantum physicis is that if you think you understand it, you don't...
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if for any reason I have mentioned something with which you are not familiar please let me know and I would be happy to explain.
[/ QUOTE ] I confess that some of the double-slit experiments are mind blowing. I have yet to actually "see" how the photon detector collapses the interference pattern. If there is a film or animation on the net that shows this, please send me a link.
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Yet theory does not preclude us from adjusting the conditions of space itself such that the speed of light in a particular region is actually "faster" than this.
[/ QUOTE ] Agreed. Which is why I was careful to phrase the absolute as "acceleration to the speed of light." I meant this through conventional means i.e. relativistic conditions as you put it. But yes, I certainly believe it is possible to achieve FTL speeds with mass..and for that matter travel at light speeds. The point is that there are some absolutes depending on the reference frame (yes....I know...thin ice, but someone has to take a stand).
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I'll be damned if I know. As I said, I'm no more happy with one-shotting as a Stalker than I'm sure anyone that I do it to is. However, as I think we've established here, Stalkers aren't the only ones guilty of this.
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Come on Quason, we know it exists with other rare builds that have elaborately combinations of power to produce this effect, like the */Dev blaster ppl keep mentioning.
Yeah fine if I set up 3 mines, some caltrops, and then find a target close enough to my little trap to tp foe, then yes the potential to die lies there, after a series of to hit checks. But thats ONE variation of an AT.
ALL stalkers can one-shot, all. And with a less elaborate set up. So basically your comparing Typhoid as a risk to die these days, to say Cancer. Which one is an American most likely to die from?
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This just sturring up contreversy.
Nothing's gonna happend to the Stalker AT.
Their damage isn't gonna get nerfed for actual reasons.
And like alot of people have already stated, the people that complain about these kinds of things are the ones who cannot take defeat easily. Well, I would suggest you play a Stalker and see it from that point of view before proceeding with your rant. As a Stalker can "one-shot" somebody, almost anybody can "one-shot" a Stalker.
It's only fair considering their very, very low HP. Like I said in other forums, if you take away their AS, you might as well take away the whole AT because that's all they depend on. It's what they're made for. They can't scrap, they can't do anything else in PvP beacuse they'll die.
Now, my question to you is, what would you want them to do with the AT? Lower their damage? If so, you're in a losing battle.
Not once have I ever said stalkers are squishy or underpowered. I said they are less in def. and less in HP, I will go with you on par HP wise as Blasters.
I also have never said or implied that their defenses were terrible. Only that they cannot stand against Scrappers or blasters for very long; in response to the complain that some stalkers don't hang around beyond the 1st attack or 2.
Beyond the AS they do slightly less damage as well. I was just in SC again fighting 1st as a Stalker, then as a Scrapper, and again the heroes had no problem evading and defeating the 4 or 5 stalkers that were there. As a stalker a fire/eng. blaster killed me in two shots. I couldn't get close enough to pull off AS, and w/his IR goggles he was easily able to evad me. I was only able to land 1 hit and that was w/focus, before I was killed again.
No, I don't think Stalkers are squishy or wimpy, that has never been the arguement, but by no means are they in need of a nerf, unless you are going to give them buffs in another area.
All things considered I couldn't care less about PvP, I'm just tired of things getting nerfed, stalker or otherwise in the name of balancing for it.
The Harpers
It puts the lotion on it's skin or it gets the hose again!
Don't forget to help control the Furry population; have your Furry spayed or neutered!
Kellen Wolf/Claw/SR(Scrapper)/ protector
Si'Nifay/Electric/Fire(Blaster)/ protector
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No stalkers def. numbers are not the same, they are less,
[/ QUOTE ] That's what I was waiting to see. As it was tested, /SR Stalkers have the exact same toggle values for defense that Scrappers do (I encourage Castle to correct me if I am wrong). In addition, they have Hide, which surppressed gives an /SR stalker better melee defense than an /SR scrapper. /SR Stalkers miss out on Lucky and the resistance associated with it. /Ninjitsu has the exact same values for the toggle as /SR. . In addition, they get their AoE defense with their ranged defense. The difference is they don't get the extra 8.5% you can get from six slotted Passives. In exchange, they get a Heal and more utility powers.
And Scrappers have the same holes in their status protection as Stalkers. Except CoH doesn't get EA and Invinc does not have resistance to Teleport.
/Regen works differently because the base health is different. But there is no evidence that the % are any different.
Kellen, there really is no point in debating this. I'm not going argue with you whether Stalkers are overpowered or not, because that isn't my argument. You don't think there there is a problem...I do. It' s a subjective call. I enjoy the presence of all the other Villian AT's...I enjoy the type of battles they create. Brutes are just what the doctor ordered for scrappers and tankers. Blstr/Def/Crpr battles are a delight. Dom/Cntr/MM are excellent match-ups. Gettting AS'd by stalkers isn't fun. Having to keep moving..isn't fun. Getting continually ganked by this process while trying to enjoy other battles and PvP outdoor content, isn't fun.
CoH/CoV is setup to be enjoyable by a casual player. The average person can expect success with an average build. What do you think the most profitible course is with PvP?
It is hypocrtical for the devs to make changes under the auspices that no powers should be mandatory and then create a situation that requires Tactics in PvP. There is a phrase for this..it's called the tail wagging the dog. Stalkers are the tail. They should not be dictating the landscape for PvP anymore than any other AT.
If you really think the devs don't have a problem here, then we aren't going to convince each other of the opposite.
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I was just in SC again fighting 1st as a Stalker, then as a Scrapper, and again the heroes had no problem evading and defeating the 4 or 5 stalkers that were there.
[/ QUOTE ] To the extent this typifies your observations, then we are operating on different data.
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No, I do not think they squishy, and would never argue that they are. They do have fewer HP..less than 85% of a scrappers as you say. And on the defensive side, their numbers are lower, especially when it comes to the Ninjitsu set, the trade of for that, is they have utility.
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I do not think they are squishy either... and I just did a test to find out about the HP situation... it is NOT less than 85%.
I went to warburg and here is the data I collected :
Scrapper HP = 1165
Tanker HP = 1630
Blaster HP = 1050
Controller HP = 885
Brute HP = 1305
Corruptor HP = 930
Master Mind HP = 700
I was unable to get a direct number for stalkers as they are hidden and hence cannot be checked up on.
However, from what I have seen they are on the same HP schedual as blasters, and certainly have more than corruptors.
Therefore I am going to assume that a lvl 38 stalker has 1050 HP... or at the very least more than 930.
That means they have 90% the HP of a scrapper (and certainly not less than 80%... which means my saying "on the order of 85%" was right on target)... if your info is wrong about the hit points... exactly why am I to believe that your info about the defenses is correct?
Given this data it is reasonable to conclude that stalkers possess roughly 85-90% the defensive capacity of a scrapper... so why do we keep hearing how terrible stalker defenses are?
Regen is generally considered one of the best scrapper sets... why would 90% of that suddenly become seen as squishy?
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I took my lvl 27 stalker into sirens and here is the hp number for mine . . . 692.6. He is a EM/nin.
and again I ask you to show me how you operate your stalker in PvP, and no ninjistu does not have the same defense values as SR.
I said pages ago, that this is a circular arguement, and neither of us are going to bring the other to their view point w/words alone. I know what I see and experience to be true. I see the many of the players being beaten by stalkers AS are new or lazy, or not paying attention. I see and experience the beating of stalkers by builds that arent' created expressly for PvP.
As for your comment about having to constantly move around to avoid hits not being fun? Well, stalkers aren't the only ones that can kill you quickly if they get to land a melee blow, when is the last time you fought a Fire/Eng. blaster? Consitantly 2 shot kills that if done right don't allow time for much reaction..should they be nerfed next?
The Harpers
It puts the lotion on it's skin or it gets the hose again!
Don't forget to help control the Furry population; have your Furry spayed or neutered!
Kellen Wolf/Claw/SR(Scrapper)/ protector
Si'Nifay/Electric/Fire(Blaster)/ protector
I am of the mindset that stalkers are perfectly balances as in PvP wise. We can kill squishies quick, but we do have lower defenses than scrappers, testing shows that. We are weak PvE wise compared to what brutes/corrupts/doms contribute to groups, but hey, thats the price we pay. And this coming from someone who mostly PvEs.
However, if we do get nerfed, it will be great because now, after we watch the month of whining and DOOM crying on the boards, then we can watch another month of critizing Statesman for nerfing an AT based on pure PvP balance, where he said he would never do that again (or something along those lines). I know I don't want actual, useful information on MY boards.
I think your the one talking in circles if you keep comparing 2 shotting to one shotting. That has been covered and buried already. 2 shot=chance to respond, 1 shot=no chance to respond. I'm not sure what the solution for fixing stalkers is but I think if the dmg isnt gonna change and the 1 shotting isnt going to end, then I think stalkers need to be MORE vunerable then just hide dropping for 8 seconds. Maybe all their toggles need to drop too. 
yeah, because inbetween those 2 attacks there is so much time to even pop and inspiration. It is circular because the arguements keep comming back to the same thing on each side. Since Miuex apparently is not going to help me out and educate me on how he can ruin everyones fun w/his stalker, I ask anyone out there that plays a stalker and thinks they are over powered to send me a PM tell me what server you are on, and if you aren't on Protector, I'll create one on your server.
When CoV came out, I'm sure Stalkers seemed unbeatable that their AS was certain death. Now that people have learned, the ones that get caught w/it are in the minority.
The Harpers
It puts the lotion on it's skin or it gets the hose again!
Don't forget to help control the Furry population; have your Furry spayed or neutered!
Kellen Wolf/Claw/SR(Scrapper)/ protector
Si'Nifay/Electric/Fire(Blaster)/ protector
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No stalkers def. numbers are not the same, they are less, I can't compare Regen, because I haven't made either regen stalkers or scrappers.
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I'd welcome any links to testing that provides numbers to back this up.
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No stalkers def. numbers are not the same, they are less, I can't compare Regen, because I haven't made either regen stalkers or scrappers.
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I'd welcome any links to testing that provides numbers to back this up.
[/ QUOTE ]There are several threads in the Stalkers forum that give the exact numbers, including the values of hide suppressed and unsuppressed.
The Harpers
It puts the lotion on it's skin or it gets the hose again!
Don't forget to help control the Furry population; have your Furry spayed or neutered!
Kellen Wolf/Claw/SR(Scrapper)/ protector
Si'Nifay/Electric/Fire(Blaster)/ protector
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when is the last time you fought a Fire/Eng.
[/ QUOTE ] Kellen, what is your disconnect here? I can see every single solo Energy blaster that ever lived. Every single one. They have to get into melee Range and that is where a number of Scrapper sets can nail them. To get into melee range, they are open to ranged attacks. They have no +DEF in any of their sets. Ever see what Siphon Speed does to a blapper?
As long as you insist on comparing apples to oranges, your arguments are unavailing.
I just don't get most of this thread. I've played some stalking, buyt not past the mid 20s.
They are fun. fun to play. fun to have as teammates. and fun to hunt as a hero.
where's the balance? they are freaking toast to anyone without taking me out from their hide. well .... toast to anyone besides a tanker, who usually just kinda spins around going "durhah .... which way little man with sword go? me stupid and have no DMG." (sorry ... not a knock on tanks. just the one i was teamed with that let a stalker who killed aour teammate get away while he picked his nose)
i assume that is the fun of playing them (it is to me) that you get your shot ... then you better get the hell out of dodge. fight a scrapper ... go ahead. fight a blaster. a defender. a corruptor. DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT A DOMINATOR!!!
ofcourse this could be based on watching very bad stalkers do their thing poorly.
which seems a little strange and unlikely since ... well stalker is pretty straight forward in how it works. Stalkers don't so much "hide" from anyone as much as hope no one has the perception to see them and isn't prepared with any type of AOE things that might keep that pony from their ONE TRICK.
In any case, if they get you. Or you are the player out there playing a stalker and get someone. and by "get", i mean one shot kill ... then good. Been on both sides of that dime and both sides of that team fight.
Don't like stalkers AS, then kill him before he does it. DOn't have the defense to make sure he gets uncovered? then make sure he can't hit you. can't get the height? then make sure he can't see you. can't hide? then stop [censored] and keep on the move ...
... stalkers hate that.
my only hope is that stalkers do not suffer from the stealth nerfs we have seen in every other game .... or even worse, the stealth "god mode" crap we have seen in some. i think there have already been changes to powers based on stalkers whining that they can't get to their victim because of some pulse or toggle aoe effect ("IWANTZ TO KILLOZ HIM WITH MY LEET SKILLZ, BUT HE MAKZ ME BOUNCE OFF .... WAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!CRY BITCCH MOANZ!!!") .... but tough. find another target and be glad you are fun to play.
lazy freaking no skills stalkers ...
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when is the last time you fought a Fire/Eng.
[/ QUOTE ] Kellen, what is your disconnect here? I can see every single solo Energy blaster that ever lived. Every single one. They have to get into melee Range and that is where a number of Scrapper sets can nail them. To get into melee range, they are open to ranged attacks. They have no +DEF in any of their sets. Ever see what Siphon Speed does to a blapper?
As long as you insist on comparing apples to oranges, your arguments are unavailing.
[/ QUOTE ]I this thread is about 1 shot kills, it's not about defense. As far as getting into melee range, they can survive that, and get off their stunning toggle dropping attack, and on the way in they are hitting with the ranged. If the melee misses they are out shooting as they go.
I know this because I've done it time and time again, against stalkers and other villains. It's a 2 shot kill, that when they land you don't have time to hit an insp.
The point of this whole deal is people saying stalkers are no fun to have around, because of their AS, they are too powerfull, or that you have to burn power slots to be able to counter them, or be on teams with every power in the book. That just plain is not true.
There are counters to every power, and every AT in this game, and not very complicated ones either.
The Harpers
It puts the lotion on it's skin or it gets the hose again!
Don't forget to help control the Furry population; have your Furry spayed or neutered!
Kellen Wolf/Claw/SR(Scrapper)/ protector
Si'Nifay/Electric/Fire(Blaster)/ protector
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No stalkers def. numbers are not the same, they are less, I can't compare Regen, because I haven't made either regen stalkers or scrappers.
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I'd welcome any links to testing that provides numbers to back this up.
[/ QUOTE ]There are several threads in the Stalkers forum that give the exact numbers, including the values of hide suppressed and unsuppressed.
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Having just searched through the Stalker forum a number of times and paged through all the pages of that forum, I can find no such testing. Indeed, the reading I did, suggests that in the case of SR, the defense values for shared powers between Stalkers and Scrappers are the same.
Maybe you're better than using search than I am I guess, but I'm not seeing posts in the Stalker forum backing up your claim that the defense values for Stalkers are less than they are for Scrappers.
In this thread Quason says that
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Hide, which is common to all Stalkers, has 7.5% def vs Melee and Ranged and a whopping 37.5% def vs AoE when unsuppressed.
Suppressed, Hide offer 3.5% def vs all.
SR Stalkers can get up to 28% def vs Melee and Ranged and up to 36% def vs AoE.
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Those numbers for SR Stalkers are the same as the known numbers for SR Scrappers. Now maybe Quason was mistaken, but I'm not seeing any evidence of testing showing a different value here.
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Stalker and Scrapper DEF numbers are identical, and in fact you could concider Stalker defense even higher than Scrappers' due to the addition of Hide. The balancing factor is the fact that Stalkers have lower base damage and much less HP.
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Stalker and Scrapper DEF numbers are identical, and in fact you could concider Stalker defense even higher than Scrappers' due to the addition of Hide. The balancing factor is the fact that Stalkers have lower base damage and much less HP.
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Thank you very much for that information as it helps to clear up an issue that has been causing some confusion.
I have already presented numbers that suggest that Stalker HP = 90% of Scrapper HP
That is not "much" less... so if their defenses are identical + Hide... then how can anyone consider stalkers to be "squishy"?
It seems to me that identical defensive capacity combined with 90% HP indicates that stalkers possess 90% the survivability of scrappers from a purely defensive standpoint.
As such the only way it seems plausible that stalkers are not experience these copious defenses is if they are not slotting their defenses to the same extent that a scrapper would... and if this is the case then it begs the question why?
I believe the answer is that under most circumstances a stalker does not need their defenses to survive pvp encounters... high defense + the Hide, stealth, AS, placate scenario is almost redundant as with the latter the length of any pvp encounter is reduced to 10 seconds or less.
One does not need scrapper level defenses to survive for 10 seconds, hence why bother slotting those defenses?... and with unslotted defenses we get the claim... "stalkers are squishy".
I maintain that if they possess 90% the HP and identicle defenses and are squishy... then I suppose scrappers must be squishy as well... with this data it is just not possible to assert that stalkers possess increadibly different levels of defense than scrappers.
When it comes to pvp the lower base damage does not even come into play as that would require the stalker sticking around for the remainder of the fight... which in most cases they do not because they claim they are "squishy".
I wonder why someone who thinks stalkers are so feeble would feel it necessary to run away from a scrapper who just got detoggled by their AS and reduced to 15% of their HP.
Ultimately I am beginning to think that this whole "stalkers are weak and can't stand up to another AT" argument is just a smoke screen.
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I this thread is about 1 shot kills
[/ QUOTE ] And I am here saying that this isn't the problem from my perspective. It is the combination of things.
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There are counters to every power, and every AT in this game, and not very complicated ones either.
[/ QUOTE ] And for the last time..that doesn't make it FUN.
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Ultimately I am beginning to think that this whole "stalkers are weak and can't stand up to another AT" argument is just a smoke screen.
[/ QUOTE ] It is actually based on a truth...like most lies.
Stalkers are very weak in early PvE, as are all toons. What makes them feel even weaker is:
1) They have to engage in Melee combat (traditional scrapping is often unavoidable on teams).
2) The AS draws massive aggro.
3) Unlike in PvP...going inviso doesn't stop someone from attacking you.
These three things are very critical and fundemental differences between PvE and PvP which are not accounted for as Stalkers enter into a PvP zone. These tools that allow stalkers to suvive PvE..especially on teams, are what create such a huge advantage in PvP.
4) Not all Stalkers get mez protection before they can enter PvP. /ninji and /SR get 'click' protection which is not permanent at until you slot 2 SO's. Which means that it is very possible to catch SR/Ninji Stalkers with holds and stuns in Bloody Bay. Getting held usually means death for stalkers because holds come from controllers....who tend to team.
5) EVERYONE wants to kill the stalkers after they start ASing your teammates.
6) Stalkers that first came into PvP had to face lvl 50 exemped heros. Scrappers in particular. A lvl 15 Stalker isn't going to last ten seconds against a scrapper in that situation.
So many of them experience extreme squishieness as they level up. This notion is perpetuated ad nauseum as a defense to AS one-shotting. As a result, it's engrained in many of their subsconsciouses. Good stalkers...like in Siren's and Warburg, can defeat scrappers even if AS doesn't hit on the first try. Fighting a Stalker is like playing roulette...depending on the sets involved. EM will kill you. They probably skew curve. If you could face all the stalkers in an even distribution, it would probably seem less egregious.
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I have already presented numbers that suggest that Stalker HP = 90% of Scrapper HP
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Really? 90%? I'd heard 75%. Can you point me to your numbers?
I agree with you on just about all points presented... I was not trying to assert that the stalker community is forming a propaganda campain.
What I am trying to get at is why some stalkers (not all obviously) are under the impression that they are defensivly weak and unable to stand toe to toe with anything whatsoever.
I believe that if more stalkers were convinced of the fact that they actually have decent defenses, which I think we have proven that they do... then perhaps they would begin to feel comfortable engaging in battle as opposed to the current situation we have.
I do believe the greater issue of 1 shotting needs to be addressed for all AT's... but it would be a nice side effect if the current belief that stalkers are made of paper was somehow done away with in preference of a more realistic perception.
The data that has been discussed here really just seems to indicate that the general perception is incorrect.
Wherever it came from I do not know, but the theories you present are certainly plausible. Hopefully reason and data will triumph over the false impression.
No stalkers def. numbers are not the same, they are less, I can't compare Regen, because I haven't made either regen stalkers or scrappers.
No, I do not think they squishy, and would never argue that they are. They do have fewer HP..less than 85% of a scrappers as you say. And on the defensive side, their numbers are lower, especially when it comes to the Ninjitsu set, the trade of for that, is they have utility.
The devs built those weaknesses into the sets on purpose; they intentionally gave them less staying power than a scrapper, just like they gave Scrappers less staying power than tanks.
Stalkers are not feeble, but neither are they overpowered.
The Harpers
It puts the lotion on it's skin or it gets the hose again!
Don't forget to help control the Furry population; have your Furry spayed or neutered!
Kellen Wolf/Claw/SR(Scrapper)/ protector
Si'Nifay/Electric/Fire(Blaster)/ protector