THEpunishcrime

I have top disagree with my above fellow player.

Any and all information worth a damn has come from the player base.

the charater builders ..... players.

the guides ... players.

the maps worth a damn ... players.

the how to guides ... players.

the tracking ... players.

Cryptic started as a manual company. how can it be so damn difficult for once just to pony up to the bar and give the players the information.

It's a guarantee that we're going to get it anyways. I tried to tell them back in the day that we get whatever info we need by hook or by crook.

you'd think that you'd like the players to enjoy the new toys you've made for them. well, part of that enjoyment is letting us know .... what they do. not vaguely ... but exactly.

otherwise it is a bad attempt at playing the "us vs them" game, the worst game a gm can play.

it's chimera .... he's not supposed to miss.

CHIMERA!!!!!

man .. i'd crap my spandex in surprise if one f his arrows whizzed by, missing me, and didn't kill some unsuspecting hero behind me by bulls-eyeing between his eyes.

CHIMERA!!!! ... forget about it.

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Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.

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I think a lot of people would like it if it were faster than unslotted sprint with three flight speed SOs.

As for effective at travel, Combat Jumping + Hurdle can already do this to a point. Getting Hover to where it can work about as well shouldn't break anything. Not saying as fast, but it really should be better than sprint, especially with slots invested.

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i got to throw my approval on the hover debacle. since ED i haven't bothered taking hover for any reason on any character. i'll take the AS everytime, at leasdt it has the use of -fly.

hover is just a contest to see who can sit still the longest.

I just don't get most of this thread. I've played some stalking, buyt not past the mid 20s.

They are fun. fun to play. fun to have as teammates. and fun to hunt as a hero.

where's the balance? they are freaking toast to anyone without taking me out from their hide. well .... toast to anyone besides a tanker, who usually just kinda spins around going "durhah .... which way little man with sword go? me stupid and have no DMG." (sorry ... not a knock on tanks. just the one i was teamed with that let a stalker who killed aour teammate get away while he picked his nose)

i assume that is the fun of playing them (it is to me) that you get your shot ... then you better get the hell out of dodge. fight a scrapper ... go ahead. fight a blaster. a defender. a corruptor. DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT A DOMINATOR!!!

ofcourse this could be based on watching very bad stalkers do their thing poorly.

which seems a little strange and unlikely since ... well stalker is pretty straight forward in how it works. Stalkers don't so much "hide" from anyone as much as hope no one has the perception to see them and isn't prepared with any type of AOE things that might keep that pony from their ONE TRICK.

In any case, if they get you. Or you are the player out there playing a stalker and get someone. and by "get", i mean one shot kill ... then good. Been on both sides of that dime and both sides of that team fight.

Don't like stalkers AS, then kill him before he does it. DOn't have the defense to make sure he gets uncovered? then make sure he can't hit you. can't get the height? then make sure he can't see you. can't hide? then stop [censored] and keep on the move ...

... stalkers hate that.

my only hope is that stalkers do not suffer from the stealth nerfs we have seen in every other game .... or even worse, the stealth "god mode" crap we have seen in some. i think there have already been changes to powers based on stalkers whining that they can't get to their victim because of some pulse or toggle aoe effect ("IWANTZ TO KILLOZ HIM WITH MY LEET SKILLZ, BUT HE MAKZ ME BOUNCE OFF .... WAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!CRY BITCCH MOANZ!!!") .... but tough. find another target and be glad you are fun to play.

lazy freaking no skills stalkers ...

level 31 Bow/Devices Blaster ....

.... you guys are all on crack.

Bow is fast. bow does comparable single target.

I personally left fist of arrows at the door. i went with snap, aim, and blaze. i later got snipe and was more than fine. with devices i kind of held off since my buddy startd way late and i took poools that would help him come along when he wanted to bring his defender.

besides , i got a free respec ... why not just get to a level when i think i know what i really want to do and respec my Bowslinger then.

hasten .. not needed with a bowman ... nice to see anothr build that scoffs at it. but when devices i your secondary ........

stamina ... ok, i admit i am a endurance hog with my snap on auto attack. and stamina coms in really really good by the time i got it. bt i won't flaw the set for that ... there or too many builds where it is even more needed.

as for the acc .... i'm just not impressed by this "bonus". I still tookdrone and will be slotting it ... becuae with a blaster I DO NOT MISS. period.

more disappointing by far than archery ... is defiance ... what's that ... I get hurt to get the bonus??? didn't we go thorugh this with vengence??? I thought we went over this with the devs???

I ena to a blaster, getting a bonus at that point after certain levelsis hanging around to get killed on the next shot ... it's not gutsy ... it's just stupid to do it.

(with all of the nonsensical jargon and changes in the name of balance that don't even support each other from explaination to explaination or even concept to concept .... thepunishcrime's eyes glaze over .. and something inbetween his ears finally makes an audible "SNAP!!!!")

screw it ...... i'm getting provoke ...... ain't no tanker going to steal MY DAMAGE BUFF!!!!

ps - just a little thought to the tankers out there since we all play a variety. i do intend to go on back and be a "launch tank" with provoke. i know i can make the numbers work with stacking and stacking, and min maxing, which it is sad that cryptic never wanted that .. and now it is all they push with their game changes.

but i'll be a bad bad man. and you know what? suddenly that seems like the easiest way for me to take my tank role back ... by just doubling up what they tried to take away. sure it is five, but now it's five, and five, and probally five again right away with hasten.

now ... if only i weren't going to be such a wussy

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAA .....

HE WANTS YOU GUYS TO GET HIT UNDER HALF HEALTH AND THEN GET SOME BONUS TO DAMAGE!!!!!

oh man .... please tell me that this is a joke. I just don't play blasters. but i play a defender and we have the same hitpoints .... and i debuff the crap out of guys ...

so it's like .....

BLAST!!!!!!!

"i sure nailed that guy"

OUCH!!!!!!

"well getting to 40% is even easier than before now that all the defenses and resistances have been dropped ... and now for my big DEFINACE!!!!!"

(which by the way is a great word and name. i'm sure every one will be feeling all kinds of rebel without a cause before)

OUCH!!!!!OOOOOOooooOOOooOooOoOoOo

(later in the hospital)

"i was about to give those ruffians WHATFOR .... right before the second one shot me".

oh man .... and then i couldn't find it but did statesman actually come out here and tell you guys you should GET HURT as to abuse the defiance?

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Do you know this for a fact?

Correct me if I am wrong here, but CoV is in development and the classes and powers have not been released and PvP setup is in mind.

Hard to be certain of anything in regards to CoV.

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If you think the devs are gonna let you have fire imps at 14 in CoV then I'd like to have some of what you're on. We don't know much about CoV, and common sense and the devs doesn't mix much, but they aren't gonna let you have a 9th tier power at 14.

Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"

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i'm with this guy.

ain't now way. see, then it will be the PLAYERS who are villains ..... and sine we got to make it "us vs them", then the HEROES will suddenly get all the nifty high level powers early.

except ... who we going to fight? crey? all the villain groups that exist?

i wrote a whle lot about villains, what thought villains were, what defined villains, and how i thought villains should work on the older boards. i'm very interested to see if they actaually make a good villain.

and as much as i complkain about them, i'm pretty sure that cryptic will at least fulfill their one goal to make villains unique and not merely "bad heroes", which is one time that i simply rejoiced. Jack Emmertt saying they didn't have villains because they just plain didn't know how and weren't sure where to start.

as opposed to those jrks who said things like "we never thought anyone would want to play a villain" or the ultimate jack [censored] line of "it's called city of .... heroes"

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WOOOOO!!! Let's hear it for unqualified buzz word approval ....

WOOOOOO!!!!!! next time, we're goiong to time warp back to the eighties and say "radical" and "awesome".

anytime you want to go ahea nad explain how this is "old school" ... feel free ....

[/ QUOTE ]AHH! I've been exposed!

But seriously, I meant he's from the older style where story mattered most, when they had the most heart. Not the newer faux-RPGs what are more concerned about stats, and who has the most orders of magnitude when it comes to HP.

But don't mind me...I have Nemesisi to hunt.

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AHHHHHHHHHHHH. well yeah.

i'll agree with you there. and i will say that for all the posts i make, the story of the city is great (and more important, very comicy with how the szones deal with the backstory) with a few exceptions .... those exceptions usually being when they come up with a bad subplot for whay a game mechanic works a certain way. capes come right to mind, in the way they are ready at level 20 (not tha hero 1 was rememebred). but my biggest pet peeve "gap story" is secret ids.

i've heard a lot of stuff on secret ids. but to be honest, they are all lame and don't even really talk about the whole reason heroes hide their ids.

it's just such a deep pool of the super hero story .... to try to lame explain it away .... is just wrong.

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Statesman said
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Yes.



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Which confirms that its a Devs vs player game that they get to cheat to beat you.

[/ QUOTE ]Nah..it just means there are a lot of good ol-school role players at Cryptic. And we're the beneficiaries.

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WOOOOO!!! Let's hear it for unqualified buzz word approval ....

WOOOOOO!!!!!! next time, we're goiong to time warp back to the eighties and say "radical" and "awesome".

anytime you want to go ahea nad explain how this is "old school" ... feel free ....

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I'm more worried about Lead Scorchers or Shockers who also cast Heal on their minions.... What the heck kind of power set is THAT? That's utterly unfair, since not one of us can create a character who can zapp AND heal.

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you forgot their hurricane ...

an that whole Murk thing withthe oppressive gloom ...... it's not as if the zombies weren't spitting out cones (which there is no defense for for many levels) of a damage code (which there is no DR for) as well as popping players in the head for decent damage as well .... and it's not like they don't have a mob with a 2 second activation to rez ..... and it's not like they don't have attacks that slow heroes when heroes most heroes have one or two atacks (galaxy city) ..

i mean what's unfair about them getting those level 32+ powers as well ....

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I am level 47 and to get the badges I want for these rewards I have two choices: find a portal mission that contains these enemies and farm it over and over or run around the lower level areas causing havoc.

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Choice 3: Exemplar to an appropriate level Hero and help them get XP (and work off your debt) while you both get the badge. I know... it's just crazy enough to work.

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But that would require people to use logic and to be outgoing and willing to actually help other people out rather than obsessing with their own gains exclusively...

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wow ... i never though of it like that. you know ... helping people .... wow ..... then we could all do a litle jig and make daisy chains.

this is not the first time this has happened wit hte high level slaughter fest because of a poorly designed retro active game features. it happened last time. it happened this time. and it will happen next time.

the fact of the matter if that cryptic wants to to knock out these mobs and doesn't do jack crap to enforce what they want. so players go and do it any way they are able.

if you had to make EXP for kill tasks .... this problem is half solved. but let's not hear the high and mighty "help people out", when the game from the start completely ignored one of the top griefing tactics in mmorpgs with kill stealing. and did i mention they have done NOTHING to curb it? Killstealing eventually seems to fade away around the 20s, but then again, it used to be the teens. so it's pretty apparent that the people with the "kill steal" attitude are slowly moving up the levels and i guess eventually we will just have city of KSers.

but when you have that kind of policy one way .... let's not get all crazy and act like suddenly cryptic DOESN'T want people to grief by spawn killing.

and RSKing doesn't earn you exp, does it? it only gives debt pay. this is very funny to me as .... there's no reason why. i mean you lose your powers. so much of the game is based on con (for some reason). unless cryptic is going backto their posittion that players should constantly be carrying around debt. that was a pretty unpopular decision that they rolld away from.

so forget it. they made a bad idea that they knew was a bad idea and that they knew would have the effect it is currrently having. just like they knew the respec was broken from training room feedback. just like they knew that the invasion add ons , along with the new patch content, was crashing map server problems and crashes on training room.

but seeing the evident consequence, they went ahead nad did these things anyway.

I'm not going to do some RSK thing to not get expirience on something that started as a proven and known bad idea.

so ... sorry. i say we need more threads like this one that say it's a bad idea. maybe evenetually cryptic will start looking at their decisions from a reasonable standpoint.

little things like +5 mobs killing you gives you no debt or exp. talk about solving a lot of ambush issues. you can go ahead and turn the purple patch off. no exp means no one will hunt them and get the exp that cryptic doesn't want teams to get. no debt means even if you get run over by these ambushes .... THAT CAN, WILL, AND DO attack you without provocation of any kind .... then you lose nothing except a run from the hospital or an awaken.

then make the player have to earn at least 1 point of exp to make kill tasks count. i will add, then make sure that mobs reqed for anything can be found at any level. by the way .... since the RSK system only allows to get debt paid and not exp .... this protects the players from having the devs screw them over with some bad idea like forcing the RSK method, while still making sure that the player has to take on mobs that at least have to give 1 point of exp.

"you could reverse sidekick" ...... i knew i was going to hear that crap sooner or later.

i got to say to some certain people on both sides ... that plugging your ears and deciding not to give credit to fully creditable opinions is not a "lack of evidence" for the other side.

it's merely you being to close minded to accept the other sides input. it's a great elementary school debate team tactic ... as long as you don't mind being recognized as being elementary.

as for how powerlelveling effects other players ... that's about as clear as anything that monmaxing and any kind of powergaming does effect others players as it directs the decisions made by the dev team ... who have made t more than clear (in words and actions) that they are very afraid of the mass migration to 50 by so many players.

i could care less about the "whys" of their fears, but that is pretty clear as well (at least in my opinionated conclusion).

but a perfect example would be the decisions during beta about slotting. the best example would be damage. damage classes also have build up. blasters then have aim on top of that for a little extra boost. and more than likely a lot of players have maxed out 6 dmage in their favorite high dmage attacks.

well .... cryptic decided that the effect of build up (or whatever their reasoning was) that damage should cap at (i think) 200%. this meant that 3 slotting with SOs would put you at cap with BU + aim. that meant you could take BU and AIM and live off buffs when you wanted to go heavy damage .... or you could simply slot 6 .. forget BU (as it would all be above cap) forget aim (unless you wanted some sure fiure hits ... and be ... dare i say it ... diversified in the blaster set. did i mention that when this was going on with the lower cap that bolasters weren't the solo destruction manchines that thy are now? they were great and very soloable ... just not able to kill everything before they shot back.

so players whined. they whined because they needed things maxed all the way to one way. they wanted 6 slots and the BU.

cryptic gave in to them. i would say cryptic went and changed it to be as they had planned it .... but the beta boards really didn't give me that impression. it was more like a lobbying group that had won a votes favor. sp instead of build flexibility ... you now have two must have powers ... BU and AIM.

the behavior was min maxing. and it did indeed end up causes decisions to be made about changing the mobs overall.


slot min maxing's next big thing i think was tanks. and every tank paid for this though i don't think every tank was even capable of the min max. invul was though. sems if you took invul .... took resist physical damage .... temp invul ... and tough and maxed them out .... nothing could hurt you that was leathal or smashing. so instead of leaving the flexability to take eithr temp ... or RPD ... or tough, or any combo that would have left the intended flexibility of the archtype system there for the invul tank ..... NEW RULES. and like i said, it wasn't just every invul tank that got effected ... it was every tank. but it's not like cryptic gives a crap about the tank .... they still haven't adressed the fact that a whole big pecentage of tanks go to the power pool at 6 to fulfill their team use .... a team game trend that they are digging much deeper into with the upcoming patch. because see ... balance has nothing to do with balance .... it has everything to do with teaming ... so all we have to do is make the blaster sick of dying and join teams ... great idea ... but an end result of a lot of these types of changes. sounds like it effects more than just the guy doing it.

another good example would be how Super speed, flight, and other travel powers were being used in different unintended ways. while everyone was not a cheater ... or should i say a scumbag (since it is such opinion on what is and is not cheating). these powers then were changed from original design ... in some cases helping players us the mechanics to use other abusive playing techniques.

then you had the orignal hover snipers and how they effected the AI of mobs ... even though these guys actually did not level faster thna anyone else. by the time they had hovered into posisition and waited for snipe to warm up over and over ... first hand ... it was no big deal level wise ... not even safty wise .. unless the mob had no ranged attack. lord knows that the three fold fix they made for it would have been fine with JUST the increase range of mobs.

but when you look at all the changes based on that .... including the very sensitive running AI, or "chicken switch" as i call it, i think it's pretty easy to say without doubt that all those kinds of game behavior efect other players. ANYTIME you step out of the intended purposes of play .... and when you do step out ... you know it.

i mean serously .. is there a need to go on? this shouldn't even be a question about how one player abusing a mmorpg game system effects the other players. and with the super dumbed down version of COH that came through so that house wives and childern from the ages of maybe 7 or 8 could play ..... finding the loopholes (or even just the min max powerset combos whose performance does have an effect on the entire archtype set) has been EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-Z.

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THEpunishcrime: where is cryptic's policy of not rewarding people for not playing the game?

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actually it has been brought up several times in sveral different phrases, most notably during the end of beta when players were all trying to discuss debt, how debt works, and different possibilities of paying off debt. the reference ofcourse to the people who somehow wanted debt to just go away over time without working it off.

but it does come off as a very "pat line" when said (even when cryptic said it) .... and a lot of times there is a huge difference between what people say they are doing .... and what they do.

such as, cryptic has said this .... cryptic has said a lot of things .... and i just don't see the way they are moving towards it. not a knock really ... but i just don't see it on most of the statements they have made about general gameplay ... most notably in their advertising of the game.

i haven't seen anyone say it, so i will.

while the changes that are currently live on the training room do not force grouping, for those players who are already able to solo well .... scrappers and blasters ....

.... the changes do indeed deepen the pool on soloing for the other ATs. the feel is that the fast, remain pretty much as fast .... while the slow got a whole hell of a lot slower.

i've only played my scrapper and my defender there, since i'm only interested right now in doing some testing with them and some number crunching. i would throw everyone over there ... but i did that for the first patch ... and then the content changed the night before the patch went live with no aditional testing .. so i decided not to waste my time trying to give input.

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Here's my stance...

It's the developers job to ensure that fun play equals a reward.

It's not fun if you level up by doing nothing. Now, there will always be an element of this - but in general, spawns are based on team size. Which means that an extra person on your team that is not contributing anything to the battle is a severe detriment. BUT our high level game is a little too easy - which means that high level characters can team up with low level characters - go out and do missions/street sweep - with a high degree of success.

But we are going to be ratcheting up the difficulty of higher levels, meaning that someone trying to "power level" someone will find it more challenging. If someone wants to do that, bravo, but I think we'll see the issue resolve itself....

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i don't know how this answers the question ..... or really even addresses it.

where is cryptic's policy of not rewarding people for not playing the game? perphaps we remmeber this repeated statement from exploits of the short history of coh, as well as some input player ideas , such as time released debt. i hope at least some of them remember that big ideal. not playing the game=no reward, type thing.

but i guess it makes everything ok, because we're going to tighten up the screws on the end game ....... which really is not the real problem here .... so i guess all the 35s and down will continue to abuse the system as it stands .... and that your toon sitting at the tram .. while you are making yourself a sandwich in some other room of your house .... while some guys PL you .. i guess that is suddenly playing the game and you should get the leveling reward for it.

not to mention ..... this sounds a whole lot like politician-eese (a bad habit that cryptic thinks they are good at, and are wrong in thinking that) saying "we're going to make another blanket change that will effect the people we say we are trying to effect very little but the rest o the population will be adversely effected in a much higher fashion.".

and that effect is little shock when you make decisions based on any powergamer in a system like COH's, even more so with coh's leveling method and the way powers and such open up.

persoanlly it has always made sense to me that the high end game is easier. it is the end of your super hero's developement. they have become .... super. the way tha the game's character developement works says that it will be easier in the higher game because tht's when EVERYONE gets to the most powerful powers in the game. they have the most powerful enhancers in the game. if cryptic didn't want this powerspike at the end game ... why'd they design a system that so obviously causes it?

but now it's time to "fix" it. and rather than make a fix for it and look at the problem ..... they're going to "tanks could be fixed if all the minions had more hitpoints" it.

how about first making it so that you can only team in much smaller increments stopping the +5 team PLing? the SK system is in place. there is no way anyone could complain about it. allow teaming for two levels down and then force the SK system. doesn't stop it, but it stops that + 5 crap. and there is a boig dofference between +3 and +5.

how about using the SK system that tracks distance and using it to make sure that you have to be within a cerain distance of the kill to get exp for it? how about within a certain distance to a team mate? how about a a check to see if you performed any type of activity (heal team/not self, damage, buff debuff, provoke) of an enemy mob?

or ... wait a second ... how about banning some of these tram monkeys?

it's kinda like herding. there's a real fix for herding. give the mobs a "mob mentality" power. maybe only the bosses and Lts need it. but the more people that are around them, the more powerful they become. to keep it fair on the normal player, the power doesn't kick in until a count of 10 are around them. so they go from "normal" to "buttwhooping" in one huge swoop the second that 10 other mobs are around them.

but no. it gets put on the hopper with a "fix" that was a plan that was going to be used anyway (without the reasoning of PLing) .... and frankly won't fix the problem in any form.

to those who are saying this is not a "cheat" or an "exploit" or whatever you want to call it .... because the game allows you to do it so it is not breaking the game's "rules" .... that's just sad. things like herding and sitting at the tram were never the intention of the game and everyone knows that.

this is cryptic's first game. first mmorpg. and it is evident that they have no expirience with mmorpgs from even a player angle. hence, these huge obvious pitfalls. so they left a lot of loops to jump through ... and people are jumping through them. just becaus the game does not keep you from doing something doesn't make it less cheap or less exploitive.

and then these people actualy have the gall to come on and act like the whole issue of offense is based on jealousy. to those people .... it is not an issue of jealousy ... it's an issue of having played mmorpgs for a long long time. this kind of behavior only hurts the game if the developers aren't the kind that crack right to the point of a problem. cryptic is about as far from that as you can get without falling off the edge of the world.

i can get "my friends" (chuckled when I saw that post) to Pl me if i want. or to pl them if they want. i even understand how much the linear game sucks as to why people PL to through the lower game. but when the "uh oh, i wet my pants" solution comes down .... oh ... what am i saying ..... that's right .... bad reactive mmorpg solutions never stop the people they are aimed at. they only screw everyone else and ruin the game as a whole.

screw it ... go ahead and lead the game down that path ... there's plenty others coming out with a little more expirience under their belt in terms of designing a game.

uh ... yeah. i think that comparing PLing to e bay is pretty fair after playing or betaing in pretty much any and every mmorpg that i could get my hands on after richard "LB" garriot hooked me with UO.

because ... that's where all my stuff went when i got bored of it. sold on the e bay. and there is no better way to guarantee boredom than to be powerleveled.

first, most powerleveled people look like idiots because they don't know how to use their character. second, groups hate that. and lastly, ven if you know how to use your guy and groups love you too .... you didn't earn your guy so most likely you have the same amount of appreciation for him or the game that someone who did earn their guy has.

and believe me, i am not against e bay or people selling items, acounts or whatever the hell they want to on e bay. it was their time, their investment, thei everything and if they want to sell it off ... fine. and no, there is no need for the devs to get paid for any of this except in the ways they should be.

one, the game key code and software (buying an account does not mean buyin the software). if you sold or stole your key code ... well, you're jut a thief [censored].

two, the monthly fee paid to kep the account active.

after that, the makers/pubishers aren't owed crap. anything else is as lame as an apartment complex making you pay a "reaplication fee", at this point of nickling and diming, i walk out the door.

but definatley that is part of the population that you see busting out the PL. guys gets an acount to a certain point and can see it for 270 bucks? yeah, it's chump change .... but it's chump change that pays for the software he bought for himself, the software he bought for his dummy account, he software for his next dummy account, and 8 months of playing time (spread however you want over those accounts).

just in that case you hav a guy who hasn't had to pay a dime because of how easy PLing is in coh ... and has the software code key he needs to pay for the next year with very litle work.

frankly i got nogripe with the guy who takes his blaster and PLs out another account, or even PLs it both ways .... by himself.

but if you are some scumbag POS that comes out with your two characters and gets busted two boxing because you suck at playing either of your characters ...

... then you should just accept you are a scumbag an move on.

but to sum it all up, equating E baying and Pling is not a stretch by any means .... in fact, it is the connection that makes the most sense to the two boxing PL guy. and it should .. it makes sense. he likes the game. he wants the game to pay for itself, somewhere there is a casual player who wants to buy an account but doesn't want to casually game up to the higher levels.

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Let me put it this way...I could care less if someone plays hardcore and gets to 40 in a few days. I DO care if they use what I consider a cheat/exploit to do so. So wrong again on the envy theory...

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Your caring and attempting to distinguish it as something bad are indicative of envy. If you didn't care, you wouldn't be posting about it.

Now I don't really care. I don't engage in the practice but I don't really have a problem with those who do so. They miss out on elements of the game that I enjoy.

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As for arguement techniques...I wasn't aware there were any, and I find the idea of it to be silly. They may have a place in a formal debate but not here.

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Here, let me help you out. As to not engaging in fallacious argument approaches, that has a place in any argument otherwise you're just wasting time.

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oh please get rid of that link.

i think we are already enduring a high enough level of middle school debate club monkey wannabes on this here forum.

besides .. logic systems, fallacies and all, have no place on these forums. these forums are about a game which is being developed with pretty much no logic .... we must argue as such.

my only problem with powerleveling is that it throws off the real figures. then after making the data bunk by having someone else crazy pl them to at least a point where their archtype has some real powers and abilities ..... and then saying the game is too easy.

personally i could give a crap if a guy wants to earn his own way, ride a team's wake to level, have someone pl them while they do nothing, or straight out cheat in some exploit to level. if it's that important to them .... great.

but when it comes time to look at the real game and reall issues that are wrong with this game ... let's not take this kind of PLing into account and act like that's normal.