Dev team: Are you forcing me to group?
By
abstractx,
Posted on: 2004-09-13 06:14 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
It is possible for something to be possible but to have disincentives. Take smoking for example, its completely legal for you to do so. . .in the right places, after you pay the appropriately high taxes for so doing, with warning labels about its impact on your health.
Being able to solo probably isn't going to go away for any AT, but that doesn't mean that it won't be easier/faster to group.
Under construction
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Yes it's been said, and yes there is an official post, but this issue touches me on a level greater than just organizing my questions into a single thread designed to be ignored.
Certain AT power-set combinations were designed to be more solo friendly, according to statements made in the past.
However, I am seeing a general trend in these posts, and reports from test server, that the ENTIRE GAME is about to become group-only in order to survive in the field.
I chose my primary character because his power-set combinations were capable of soloing on a casual level. I just don't have the time to locate 'good' groups who aren't there just to grief me, and take the proper time to devote my attention in support of those groups.
If I could take ONE reason why I play this game, aside from the obvious wonders of good customer service and creative geniuses at development, I would say it's because I CAN SOLO.
I have no choice. Taking this from me means I just won't be able to play this game anymore.
Therefore, in fairness, I need to be told whether or not this is the intention of the development team. If my game play changes during online play, that's one thing. But completely removing my ability to play is quite another.
The product that I purchased is certainly not the same product it is today, and many good things are coming in the future. But without the ability to play the game I simply won't be able to take part in your fine production, and that would be a shame.
So, which is it? I need a straight answer. I feel I have the right know, being a paying customer, what your intentions are from this end of the argument.
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No one is FORCING you to do anything. Not even play this game. The Devs are making the game a challenge again. You can either step up to the challenge or run from it. Nobody if forcing you to choose either.
How you play the game is your choice, the fact that the Devs are making it a challenge again shows that they understand the concept of Risk vs Reward.
Seryphim : Virtue : Empath/Archery Defender
Fueur-Engel : Virtue : Fire/Thermal Corrupter
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How you play the game is your choice, the fact that the Devs are making it a challenge again shows that they understand the concept of Risk vs Reward.
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It's not a matter of choice in my case, perhaps I didn't make that clear.
If the game is changed so that I am forced to group, there is no way I can proceed, and that is an issue that concerns me. Challenge is nice, for those who have the time to pursue that challenge.
On the other hand, OPTIONS are better than challenge, because options mean FUN...not to mention the ability for me to play the product.
Have you tried the changes on the test server, Wepps? I have and I've had no trouble soloing with the characters I usually solo with.
From your post I take it that you are commenting on what you've read in the forums, and we both know how things can get twisted in a public forum environment.
I would try out the changes myself before I get too concerned.
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... I am seeing a general trend in these posts, and reports from test server ...
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If you haven't experienced it for yourself then don't you think it's just a bit premature to be whining about stuff that you have no idea about first hand ???
I took my main over to the test server and played a little bit ... All he did the whole time he was on was solo, and he's not the most efficient solo build.
In fact it's much easier to make progress while soloing now that mission experience has been upped.
Granted there are now missions that require a team to do, but they are not something you HAVE to do and you can clearly see them when they are presented ...
Why don't you either go over to the test server and see for yourself (if it's that big an issue to you), or wait till Issue 2 goes live before spouting off about how your sky is falling ...
Yes some Ats are forced to gorup, these are controller and defender. They can operate in a solo situation but it becomes very difficult. The solo ATs are tankers, scrappers and blasters with the last two being better designed for it. So no they aren't forcing you to play in groups, you simply need to realise that some Ats aren't designed to do that with much degree of success.
I understand your question, as I'm in a similar situation most times. But as the answer very much depends on how you play, you will have to wait and see basically. For example, all AT's can solo, but they may be to slow to really be fun to you.
It may be that they will make a lot of situations better to be grouped than solo on the xp/hour mark, but I'm hoping it will still remain fun to solo, even if slower.
I'm soloing on test. Blaster and Scrapper.
Now then I will not say they are forcing you to group. (There are a few missions that force group, but these are in the process of being clearly marked and taken out of story arcs) I've soloed The Hallows at level 5, I've soloed up to 25 on test.
On the other hand they are strongly nudging you in the direction of grouping. The days of power nuking 10 yellows or jumping a purple boss are fading. Solo people are going to have to drop down to whites and groups of blues now. Door missions will require running and insperation use from time to time.
So yes the solo game is changing, it is moving away from the fast track to the careful track, but it has not yet be taken away.
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If the game is changed so that I am forced to group, there is no way I can proceed, and that is an issue that concerns me. Challenge is nice, for those who have the time to pursue that challenge.
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I think the reason you get some controversy on this issue, is that people are choosing an odd definition for "forced".
If you are forced to group, it would mean that you could not solo for experience. You would have to group to advance at all.
Most ATs, even poorly built ones, are able to solo. They cannot solo the same mobs in terms of levels and numbers, but they can defeat mobs by themselves and gain experience. They do so much more slowly than more efficient and solo-capable builds, but they do advance.
I think that when people worry about "being forced to group", they are concerned that their solo progression will fall below a certain threshold.
I think that people worried about that issue should complain about that issue directly, instead of wording it as being forced to group. Because otherwise it seems as though you're exaggerating. But pointing out that defeating small groups of carefully selected blue/green mobs is the only way you can reliably advance would probably garner more support from others.
It isn't that you're forced to group, but it could be that soloing is so slow as to be torturous. That's worth looking into for possible changes, IMO.
Wepps,
I can totally understand your apprehension when it comes to grouping with possible griefers. But how many groups have really done that to you? I only ask because I only casually group on the Triumph server because all my friends have gone over to Victory. Just finding groups to do a TF or door missions is pretty easy (at least if you hang out in Talos at the train) and I've only come across a few people unwilling to "play nice."
So, (and I know you were really asking the Devs) my question is: what has made you not want to just meet up with random people and go out and play?
I see, so if I posed the question in this manner...
"If I solo 1 hour every other night, am I not rewarded now?" perhaps it will be cleared up.
It's not a debate. If I have the perception that I am no longer rewarded for casually playing the game, then I will no longer play. But I do deserve a direct answer on this issue, and therefore I am asking.
Sometimes it's simple to sit back, and address the majority of players by making sweeping changes to the game. Each time this happens, a number of people (for whatever reason) feel it's time to move on.
Playing a game, in my case, means that I expect to be rewarded for the limited time I put into playing it.
If those expectations are no longer met, because the 'majority' or 'core community' are now all that matters, then I no longer have a choice and must withdraw from the service, because my rewards will be minimized instead of addressed.
In other words, if MY reason for playing has been removed, then playing is no longer an option. I don't have the time to test this product, and I don't know what changes are coming except for some of the alarmist posts I have been reading. However, if they are true, I have to cancel my account and that would be a great loss in my opinion.
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Yes it's been said, and yes there is an official post, but this issue touches me on a level greater than just organizing my questions into a single thread designed to be ignored.
Certain AT power-set combinations were designed to be more solo friendly, according to statements made in the past.
However, I am seeing a general trend in these posts, and reports from test server, that the ENTIRE GAME is about to become group-only in order to survive in the field.
I chose my primary character because his power-set combinations were capable of soloing on a casual level. I just don't have the time to locate 'good' groups who aren't there just to grief me, and take the proper time to devote my attention in support of those groups.
If I could take ONE reason why I play this game, aside from the obvious wonders of good customer service and creative geniuses at development, I would say it's because I CAN SOLO.
I have no choice. Taking this from me means I just won't be able to play this game anymore.
Therefore, in fairness, I need to be told whether or not this is the intention of the development team. If my game play changes during online play, that's one thing. But completely removing my ability to play is quite another.
The product that I purchased is certainly not the same product it is today, and many good things are coming in the future. But without the ability to play the game I simply won't be able to take part in your fine production, and that would be a shame.
So, which is it? I need a straight answer. I feel I have the right to know, being a paying customer, what your intentions are from this end of the argument.
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you can solo your way to 50 taking minions that are 1-2 levels below you. you can do this with every archetype.
The game is henceforth 'solo-able'
Period. Thats it. You can still solo. Now if your going to start complaining that you can't do task forces while soloing, or that you can't get the 'most' experience while soloing... then i'm gunna laugh at you.
The devs aren't forcing anyone to solo until they take out S/os. =p
Some content is group only, other is solo available. Deal with it.
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"If I solo 1 hour every other night, am I not rewarded now?" perhaps it will be cleared up.
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You will still be rewarded. You will have to shift your focus down if you are hunting oranges, reds, purples. You will not want to attack yellow groups with bosses any more, you will find yourself dying. If you shift down to taking on white minions with bosses you will find yourself in the same area, you where before. Door missions give more exp, and are slightly shifted in mob strength. This will help you level faster solo, greater rewards for doing 1 door mission a night. Of course you will now run into "Do x at the same time" missions now, but the intent is to mark them and make it so they don't come up two at a time on one contact.
Now then if you consider your play time to only be rewarding if you are attacking +2-+4s then you will no longer be rewarded for playing. They are trying to remove that part of the solo game out of the equation.
(Note I am a strong supporter of Solo play. I do not mind the shift to equal level mobs, I always played this way. You are still being rewarded for playing this way. This is not becoming a "you can only solo greys for 1 exp game.")
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... I don't know what changes are coming except for some of the alarmist posts I have been reading.
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Ah ... I see ... Troll.
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It's not a debate. If I have the perception that I am no longer rewarded for casually playing the game, then I will no longer play. But I do deserve a direct answer on this issue, and therefore I am asking.
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I'm not sure why you think you deserve a direct answer to a question. When a company has almost 200,000 paying customers, giving direct answers to specific questions is a daunting task indeed.
Besides, you provided the answer yourself. With so many people wanting so many different things from the game, the developers know that any changes they make will upset some of their customers, just as NOT making changes will do the same. Either way there is the likelyhood that they'll lose customers who become dissatisfied. They must either follow the almighty dollar, or follow their own creative vision. Neither of those guarantees success, but they're far better than trying to please every possible dissenting voice.
My point was that if you simply complain that you cannot solo, you are likely to be ignored, because after all you can solo. You may not be able to advance as quickly as you'd like, which is IMO a valid concern to bring up. But simply asking the developers not to eliminate soloing won't fix anything, since they don't seem to have any plans to do so.
The key to getting a useful answer is to ask the right question, that's all I'm saying.
Wepps:
The concern over "forced grouping" was thoroughly discussed in this thread in the Training Room forum. It's been locked, I believe, since Positron gave us an entirely satisfactory answer in this thread a few days later.
In essence, on Test, new missions types have been added which require more than one person (simultaneous bomb disarms, for example). These were appearing in the middle of story arcs, & we were also concerned that two of them might appear together in a contact's mission list, gating us from soloable content from that contact. They have been removed from story arcs, & we've been assured that they won't gate contact content either.
You should have no problems continuing to solo after Issue #2 goes live.
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Door missions give more exp, and are slightly shifted in mob strength. This will help you level faster solo, greater rewards for doing 1 door mission a night.
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I'm not actually concerned with leveling exp, though it's an important positive change for many reasons. That's why my main is a level 30 and not a 50.
But my concern is with the acquisiton of enhancement rewards which determine my ability to perform in the field. Often, at these levels, you must hunt the outdoors to acquire these in order to sell, and purchase SO enhancers which address YOUR character build to create that nominal character.
If I can no longer experience THESE rewards, then leveling is meaningless as in 2 levels my enhancement situation reduces me to purchasing a whole new set.
In order to perform in many missions, my enhancements must be optimized or I get owned. This is the way the game is designed at its basic level. Getting my 30 to 50 tomorrow is not the greatest interest I have. This particular character has 10 souveniers, I do the missions and enjoy the sequence.
Now.
If I can no longer hunt for the enhancements without interfering with somebody else of a lower level, because I must face blues now instead of yellows, I end up in a situation where the return on my time put into playing has been reduced to the point where it becomes more grief for me than normally dealing with the KSers out there, and group griefers if forced to go that way. I end up spending twice the time at least to accomplish the same goal...
...just to go back to doing the missions once I am properly optimized.
The problem I face is with mission rewards.
When I do nothing but missions, the enhancements returned to me are not enough to gain the influence to purchase that whole new set every few levels.
Therefore, I have to hunt outdoors to get enough of them. For example, at level 30, I am still 250,000 influence short of completing the level 30 set of SO enhancements I require. Gaining THAT should take me no more than a couple hours of devoted hunting. Maybe complete by Wednesday if I am lucky and have the time.
But, all this does is fill me with Gray enhancers, and already I must be thinking of the level 32 acquisitions. Doing the missions MIGHT return more experience, but to me this is a negative change because I will reach 32 before I can even come close to affording the needed enhancements.
...and I won't be able to solo the outdoors nearly as well, causing me to spend more time with debt and griefers than I intended originally. A lot more time.
THIS game is all about enhancement management at any level, from the strategic standpoint, and inspiration management at the tactical level. If this is messed with in the wrong manner, it changes the entire game in a negative way that I might not be able to overcome simply by saying "Oooh, a new challenge".
This may be the only game in history that I will be forced to give up for this issue. Usually it's because the customer service treats me like I owe them something :P
Wepps, you don't need to worry about influence for your level 32 upgrades. At level 30 you will notice a decent increase in the amount of influence you are recieving. At 31 it takes a big jump. That plus the amount of xp needed to level will ensure you have plenty to afford your entire set of level 35 enhancements when you hit 32. And influence only comes faster past 32. You will be able to afford to give away millions soon.
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Wepps, you don't need to worry about influence for your level 32 upgrades. At level 30 you will notice a decent increase in the amount of influence you are recieving.
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This is true.
Right now.
But it appears to me that the changes coming will force my '30' to hunt lower level stuff reducing that return and costing much time on my part. Time I don't have.
Understand the situation?
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But it appears to me that the changes coming will force my '30' to hunt lower level stuff reducing that return and costing much time on my part. Time I don't have.
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Actually Wepps, It has no relivance to what level you fight things, you amass the influence becuase of the peaking level curves at 30+ .. it takes a lot longer to level and no matter what you fight (even if they con grey to you) the time spent gaining the exp to level will result in so much influence that you just dont need to worry about it anymore.. ever. It becomes more readily apparent as you hit 35+ and at 40+ its insane.. to put it bluntly, my main (a level 40 hero) has over 8 million influence. when i hit 42, to upgrade All my SO's to 45, it will *MAYBE* cost 2 million at most. (by the time i hit 42 ill be at 14 million probably)
Ah... I see. I assumed your concern was regarding access to missions & storyline. Oops. Silly me.
<shrug> I don't street hunt - with either my group or my solo character - because I find it boring. My soloer, however, is a claws/SR scrapper, & solos on missions, which means generally white-con minions, yellow lieutenants & orange bosses. At 22 she was able to upgrade half her enhancements to SOs & at 23 the other half; since influence becomes less of an issue with leveling, I don't think you'll have that much of a problem. At worst you'll have to wait a level to upgrade the second half of your SOs, which shouldn't be that much of a trial.
I'm worried about the difficulty fixing because there is such a huge difference in how powerful individual builds are even within the same AT.
You can have 1 build who as it is now cannot take on more than max 6 whites or 3 yellows or 1 orange and then you can have another build who can defeat 10 reds without problems (blasters).
If they change the game so it becomes a challenge to the uber builds then what happens to the non-elite builds?
Maybe they should balance the different builds first and then change the difficulty rating after that?
Yes it's been said, and yes there is an official post, but this issue touches me on a level greater than just organizing my questions into a single thread designed to be ignored.
Certain AT power-set combinations were designed to be more solo friendly, according to statements made in the past.
However, I am seeing a general trend in these posts, and reports from test server, that the ENTIRE GAME is about to become group-only in order to survive in the field.
I chose my primary character because his power-set combinations were capable of soloing on a casual level. I just don't have the time to locate 'good' groups who aren't there just to grief me, and take the proper time to devote my attention in support of those groups.
If I could take ONE reason why I play this game, aside from the obvious wonders of good customer service and creative geniuses at development, I would say it's because I CAN SOLO.
I have no choice. Taking this from me means I just won't be able to play this game anymore.
Therefore, in fairness, I need to be told whether or not this is the intention of the development team. If my game play changes during online play, that's one thing. But completely removing my ability to play is quite another.
The product that I purchased is certainly not the same product it is today, and many good things are coming in the future. But without the ability to play the game I simply won't be able to take part in your fine production, and that would be a shame.
So, which is it? I need a straight answer. I feel I have the right to know, being a paying customer, what your intentions are from this end of the argument.