Dev team: Are you forcing me to group?
By
abstractx,
Posted on: 2004-09-13 06:14 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Well states the mission are to easy to me on live server, but just right to me on test why not add a difficulty mission slider this issue please. This will solve most issues with people who think the game is to easy and want a challenge and people who thinks the game is to hard.
As a melee toon, you should have access to a taunt power. I think most people skip it. This however is looking more like a power that would make soloing easier for those that can't handle it. Personally I like the harder content, I just wished the majority of it wasn't in the way of stuns/holds.
Wepps wrote:
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Yes it's been said, and yes there is an official post, but this issue touches me on a level greater than just organizing my questions into a single thread designed to be ignored.
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Mom, the issue is touching him!
--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
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On the other hand, OPTIONS are better than challenge, because options mean FUN...not to mention the ability for me to play the product.
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Well no you're incorrect. Options does not mean fun.
Fun is completely subjective and there is no way the developers can design something that everyone will concider "fun".
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Umm. Not sure you're making sense here.
We both agree that fun is subjective. What one person finds a nice challenge, another may find overwhelming, while a thind may find it so esy as to be boring.
No problem so far.
If we both agree on that, then by allowing a slider that lets each player determine the challenge level they are presented with, you allow more players to have fun.
How exactly do you resolve this with the statement that "Options do not mean fun"?
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Actually, here's the solo possibilities: 1 lt., 1 lt. & 1 minion, 2 minions, 3 minions, 4 minions.
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You sure about that?
Here are 2 +1 LTs and 2 +1 Minions, right at the beginning of a solo level 4 mission.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
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Here are 2 +1 LTs and 2 +1 Minions, right at the beginning of a solo level 4 mission.
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Those would be two separate spawns (Lt + minion), they just happened to end up right next to each other. I'd be willing to bet it's possible to aggro one pair without alarming the other, if you're careful (and can hit them with something from a good range). I did this recently with a couple intermingled Lost spawns.
Alternatively, a trick that works well if that situation is just too difficult: restart the mission. The enemies, except for any key figures, will be spawned somewhat randomly. It's doubtful you'd get them so close together twice in a row.
Thanks for the helpful response, Mirai. 
The problem is, I know all these tricks. This wasn't an issue for me (other than the annoyance of having to spend a minute and a half of downtime between them).
The reason I brought this up is because it is a level 4 mission. I don't know about you, but I'd like new players to get into this game. The more money Cryptic makes, the more they can do for the game, and the longer it will last. New players will see those guys and likely have no idea that they have these tactics as options.
The reason this game has done so well is because anyone could get in, and feel like a superhero right out of the tutorial. Now, I as a seasoned player from the beta, just managed to die in my first mission out of the Tutorial. this happened because I was facing a +1 lt and minion at level 2, and my newbie enrage inspiration did me no good, as I simply couldn't hit them often enough to kill either of them before they did me in. I had two attacks, while the 5th minion alone had three.
It isn't about me. I'm fine. A brand new player that came here looking to feel like a superhero might be a little frustrated, and seeing as how the missions haven't changed on the way to level 4, they might decide to quit. I don't want that. New players shouldn't feel frustrated 2 hours into the game.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
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The reason I brought this up is because it is a level 4 mission. I don't know about you, but I'd like new players to get into this game. The more money Cryptic makes, the more they can do for the game, and the longer it will last. New players will see those guys and likely have no idea that they have these tactics as options.
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Yes, I agree. Same level enemies are tough enough at level 4. When I was just starting out, I would occasionally level up instead of tackling +1 enemies in door missions.
A new Science-oriented player running into nothing but +1 Vahzilok in door missions could get very discouraged very fast!
Wow, I didn't realize these kinds of missions were spawning so low. I figured the higher cons would be +0 through level 10--and only then would they get cute and start spawning +1s. This can't be a good thing...
Just curious: Anybody planning to hunt the hollows? It seems like a place I will be avoiding for the duration of the game. Unless, of course, I'm an empathy Defender looking for a big group. Hurricane isn't a power you should encounter when you're low level...
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Wow, I didn't realize these kinds of missions were spawning so low. I figured the higher cons would be +0 through level 10--and only then would they get cute and start spawning +1s. This can't be a good thing...
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Yeah, at higher level, more +1 and maybe even an occassional +2 is probably a good idea. But, at level 4? The increased mission xp won't help, if you have to spend 5-10 minutes chipping away at a pair of +1 spawns, when you don't even have all your early attack powers yet.
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I've stated before - I don't want FORCED grouping.
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All I gotta say is that is a very ironic statement when all my missions on Test brought over from Justice turned into ones that require two or more people to hit the glowies at the same time...
One thing to point out I think many people are mis-reading this post by Statesman.
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Actually, here's the solo possibilities: 1 lt., 1 lt. & 1 minion, 2 minions, 3 minions, 4 minions.
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It says that the solo spans are groups of 1 lt or 1lt and one minion or 1lt and 2 minions or 1 lt and 3 minions or 1lt and 4 minions.
I will grant that his use of comma lists was a bit confusing but I am 99% sure that is how it is meant to be read. Since I've noticed that exact spawn pattern.
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Now then Ive noticed there a big issue with Patrol mobs and Ambush mobs getting clumped in with other spawn groups. Patrol mobs that bump into a previously agroed group stop patrolling. So if youve hit a group and ran away, when a patrol runs into the group youve attacked, they dont continue to patrol. Since patrols can have the same mob spread as static groups, you double your mob count.
Also I do notice that Statesman say scaling on Duo groups is the most potentially lethal. I would like to see that a Developer looked at the random mob spawn code in the new missions, I think the attempt to Flat Load a mission is setting many spawns especially in the re-tooled missions, (New tile sets, new outcast missions ect) are not random, but coming across as fixed spawns.
Also it is worth noting that since Flat Loading a front loaded mission doesnt reduce the number of spawns in the mission you now end up facing huge groups of equal level mobs, where in the earlier front loaded missions these huge groups would be green or grey.
So there are a few situations where the new game style is stacking more mobs then the minimum spawn, either patrols, ambushes, flat loading, and with Duo groups having the worst potential spread on group spawns, this may be a problem.
So to point out this new play style may hurt the duo group, more then the solo group.
I will still hold that soloing has not been effected on test as much as people say. (And ask some of the pro-groupers how much of a Pro-soloer I am.)
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Just curious: Anybody planning to hunt the hollows? It seems like a place I will be avoiding for the duration of the game. Unless, of course, I'm an empathy Defender looking for a big group. Hurricane isn't a power you should encounter when you're low level...
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Actually The Hollows is a great place for hover blasters to hunt, Trolls while all given super strength don't have a lot of range.
It's also a good place for Scraper/Controller, Scrapper/Defender, Blaster/Defender, Blaster/Controller duos to go. I can't say I'd ever bring a tanker into the Hallows to hunt.
Also the caves are juicy hunting grounds for most group sizes.
I can't say I am overly thrilled about the increase in the CoT bosses and Pumicietes(sp) scare me. But there is some fun to be had in The Hollows and it is much more duo friendly then Perez.
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Also Hurrican is being moved from the Shockers Lts to the Shocker Bosses.
The moment I feel most of my time doing missions has to be in a group is the time I move on from this game.
period.
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A new Science-oriented player running into nothing but +1 Vahzilok in door missions could get very discouraged very fast!
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I recall a month or so ago, on the live server, when a mission that I started with two friends at around level 8 or 9 spawned entire groups of clockwork lieutenants. Six to eight at a time. No minions, just Lts. Was interesting to say the least.
And there is still the 'unbalanced' missions, where the mobs near the entrance are +1 and by the time you get to the named mob further in, he is two or three levels below you. That really does kill the fun of a mission, when just getting past the first two or three spawns is a headache, then you breeze through the rest of the mission and barely even notice that you just defeated the named mob that is supposed to be the "leader" of the group that you attacked.
I may hit the test server a few more times to see how my missions pan out. One of my scrapper's indoor missions against clockworks was made slighty more difficult, but it was far from impossible and actually more fun. But since I group most of the time, having group numbers change the difficulty from 'challenge' to 'near-impossible' would not go over well.
I feel pretty forced to group my controler come next update -- nerfed pets man! nerfed pets! my illusion controler will never be the same 
R
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I've stated before - I don't want FORCED grouping.
All Archetypes CAN solo. Some do it slowly, some do it quickly. Some can solo most missions, some can solo fewer missions. And worse comes to worse - a hero can always hunt the streets and stop some crime there. That was always the intent of city zones.
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Not really Statesman, my Earth/Storm controller has 2 attacks that can be used to kill something, 1 is Brawl and the other is Fossilize, one does 15 damage, the other 6, the mobs my level have around 13 times the amount of damage I can dish out in one "volley" of such incredible damage prowess.
The problem is that you seem to think that killing 2 -1 mobs in 5 minutes is soloing, even though slowly while others take this as unreal numbers, imagine how much time I would've needed to solo to get another bubble, or dear lord, a LEVEL!
I love my Controller, I very extremely entirely love him but the fact that in order to get any mission done in less than 2 hours I need to group hinders my variaty of options, this, IMO means that soloing is impossible, soloing when the amount of time it takes to kill reaches such an extreme amount means it's impossible to group and Controllers are FORCED to group.
And on a side note: I love City of Heroes (But it doesn't mean problems do not exist)
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The problem is that you seem to think that killing 2 -1 mobs in 5 minutes is soloing, even though slowly while others take this as unreal numbers, imagine how much time I would've needed to solo to get another bubble, or dear lord, a LEVEL!
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This assumes concern for levelling, as a goal. A fair assumption, I think, but some seem to think of it as more of a side effect. Even if you can't kill anything but greys, and the occassional green, it's "fun" right? So why worry so much if it'd take a month to get to level 10?
I think levelling is a lot more than a side effect, it's the core of the gameplay. Every game has a motivation, like the way single player games use a story, of heroes trying to save the world or whatever. In MMORPGs, there's no story, instead there's levelling, and the pace is important.
Soloing too slowingly isn't soloing, it's just goofing around, untill you can get a group.
Ya, It should be possible for Regenners to solo 5 +8 bosses at once!!!!!!
Wait!!!!!
Regarding Statesman's post on spawn possibilites...
Most of the time, the mobs appear in the way that Statesman describes, but on some missions, especially in the Test server right now, I can get 3 Lts and 5 minions at once. Solo.
Now, I'm thinking that what's happening is that the enemy groups are spawning way too close together. Instead of being on opposite sides of the room (and one group in the hallway), there are three groups pushed into one section of a room (or hallway).
The problem, for melee characters, is that by engaging one group, you get too close to the other groups, and soon your solo hero is taking on more than he/she can chew (worse, if it's a front-loaded mission... or one of those +1 level missions that exist on every Test door mission).
If you have a ranged attack, you may be able to fight one group, and pull them closer to you, without riling up the other ones.
Maybe. :P
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