Dev team: Are you forcing me to group?
By
abstractx,
Posted on: 2004-09-13 06:14 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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This may be the only game in history that I will be forced to give up for this issue. Usually it's because the customer service treats me like I owe them something :P
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As opposed to you believing they owe you a specific answer?
You're fulfilling your end of the bargain by paying. They're fulfilling their end of the bargain by having an online server for you to join and a stream of updates.
If at any time you feel like ending that 'agreement', cancel. Simple as that. They will never satisfy 100% of the people and you should be aware of that.
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However, my definition of forced group play means that if I cannot experience ALL content as a soloer, then that missing content is forcing me to group.
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In that case, the game already forces you to group, because some missions require a minimum group size to begin them (Task Forces) and at least one encounter (Hamidon) requires a large number of people working together.
The OP's definition of forced grouping does not seem to reflect yours. My impression from his posts is that he wants to be able to solo, particularly indoor missions, and worries about the impact that influence levels may have on his ability to enhance his powers towards that end.
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Not forced grouping to play the game, true, but forced if I want to experience it all. And making a comment like "deal with it" is hardly constructive and could be used for anything. Bombs are falling in your city, deal with it.
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I don't recall telling anyone to "deal with it". I presume you are directing this comment at someone else?
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However, my definition of forced group play means that if I cannot experience ALL content as a soloer, then that missing content is forcing me to group. Not forced grouping to play the game, true, but forced if I want to experience it all.
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Then go out and buy standalone RPG. MMOs need to have group content to be attractive to the majority of people who play them. IOW they need group content to even survive.
If every activity in the game can be performed solo then there is zero group content and this is a serious flaw that the majority of CoH subscribers will not tolerate. Simply put you have no right to demand this be a game with no group content since that is something that most people do not want.
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My criteria for staying long term in a MMORPG is the ongoing ability to solo and experience the game fully.
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My criteria is that there be significant amounts of group content to explore. Clearly both of us cannot get what we want, and my requirement is far more reasonable then you. After all I am not demanding there be no solo content in the game, why then should you demand that the things I want to do not be put into the game?
i haven't seen anyone say it, so i will.
while the changes that are currently live on the training room do not force grouping, for those players who are already able to solo well .... scrappers and blasters ....
.... the changes do indeed deepen the pool on soloing for the other ATs. the feel is that the fast, remain pretty much as fast .... while the slow got a whole hell of a lot slower.
i've only played my scrapper and my defender there, since i'm only interested right now in doing some testing with them and some number crunching. i would throw everyone over there ... but i did that for the first patch ... and then the content changed the night before the patch went live with no aditional testing .. so i decided not to waste my time trying to give input.
Actually everyone doing the "Well I can solo just fine still on my X/invuln scrapper... or my fire/dev blaster" What's your issue can slot off.
I play a kat/regen scrapper, and a fire/energy blaster. With the changes to Katana probably 2 of the easiest builds to solo with in the game as of issue 2. Can I still solo on test, sure. Can I solo the same way as before, no not really. I can't drop entire groups of yellow con's and red con's with aoe blasts (good thing actually imo it was a bit silly really) Nor can I run into a group of 10 yellow lt's fire off Buildup+Aim+Inferno and run off as they all die pretty much instantly anymore. (again I put this into yep that's probably a good thing, was just a bit on the overpowered side)
But with all the additions to crowd control on the villans, we're slowly walking down a path that will eventually lead to, if I don't have a tank, a controller, a defender and a couple scrappers or blasters, we're not going to be able to take this group of white/yellow con mobs.
While some would argue that this is indeed a good thing (mostly controllers and defenders that have been a bit tossed to the curb with yesterdays trash) I am not really positive this is the best route for the game to take.
There are going to be instances where it is beneficial to have a balanced well rounded team that can compliment each other with thier abilities. But there are also times when I have no urge to group up (usually when I'm low on play time and just want to have a bit of fun before bed or whatnot). Joining a group for 30min is usually in my book a bit on the rude side.
All that aside lets look at the mob changes...
Nemisis now have stuns (ouch! that's going to slow down those fire tanks!) Not to mention just about every other class but Regen and Invuln that have a pretty heafty defense against it. (Side note: I do believe Earth tanks have a pretty reasonable defense to this too now but not 100% sure)
CoT have just about every mob type with a hold, mez, stun, disorient, hold, sleep 2ndary attack and hold... (did I mention they have holds?). Or in some cases it's their primary. Well that just about makes it a nightmare for anything that doesn't have an inate defense to those a way to fight them and have fun. (at least solo)
Crey: Yep same same here folks they've got it all now.
Freakshow: Not all have this, mostly tanks and a couple lt's have a stun or disorient.
Devouring Earth: Fungus anyone?
Carnival: Master Illusionist ... enough said there, not to mention the regular Illusionists...
Malta: Sappers are teh devil! Web Grenade, Stun grenade and blinds... (sure beats lions and tigers and bears! oh my!)
Knives: Caltrop chucking fiends, web grenades and a nifty stun attack from some.
Rikti: everyone has experienced the joy of having a headman slap you along side the head with his sword only to notice that your now stunned, at 1/2 health and know for certain that he'll get the 2nd attack off before you unstun and it will remove the other half of your health the first didn't since every defense you had running is now turned off.
There's more as you work your way down, but the end run is every type of mob now has an ability to lock you down for extended periods of time while they pummel you mercilessly. Which can be entertaining at times, but usually it's just frustrating having to sit here and watch yourself stagger around drunk while they beat you down.
At the current rate they're adding mobs with CC effects and giving older mobs they're own CC effects and the added bonus of higher hp on mobs now, it's only a matter of one more patch before they decrease the ability to resist these effects on the classes that do have them, and we all have no choice but to group to kill anythign that isn't blue or above.
Is this really the direction we all want the game to go?
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I make no statement one way or the other, except to say that I am concerned about these changes based upon the feedback I have read so far. Therefore, DEV should drop in and answer the question CLEARLY. Is there a Design Decision to remove soloing as a viable option?
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The Dev's HAVE Given a clear answer to your question:
Statesman:[ QUOTE ]
Just to clarify something here. I said that I wanted every Archetype to be able to solo. In other words, if someone logs on, and they don't feel like teaming up with someone else, there's still something for them to do. All Archetypes can currently do this...but some builds are stronger in groups, others are stronger solo.
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That's taken from this thread here. The thread has been locked, but it's still open for reading.
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No, I'll make up my mind for myself as usual.
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Um..
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But it appears to me that the changes coming will force my '30' to hunt lower level stuff reducing that return and costing much time on my part. Time I don't have.
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Appears to you how.. based on other peoples posts? So much for making up your own mind..
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I don't have the time to test this product, and I don't know what changes are coming except for some of the alarmist posts I have been reading. However, if they are true, I have to cancel my account and that would be a great loss in my opinion.
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Here's my question.. you yourself called them "Alarmist" posts. That indicates that you at least realize that they are not "Fact". Yet, every single post here so far telling you that your play style should not change, and in fact may well be improved, you discount and ignore, or call people fanbois, and continue to sing the same tripe tune of [ QUOTE ]
I have to cancel my account
[/ QUOTE ] instead of saying "Hey, ok, maybe it won't be so bad, after all, here are some people who have also tested it, and they aren't being alarmist." If you don't have time to test it, then it must not be that major of a concern to you. Because if it was a big enough issue that I'd consider cancelling my account, you better believe I'd MAKE the time to test it, especially since your account is "coming due" soon. I'd want to know before I paid another month whether I'd want to play it or not. But since you "don't have the time" and have decided to discount, insult, and be an *** to those people who have tried to tell you that it's not as bad as the chicken littles are saying, don't expect anyone, especially a dev, to take you very seriously. The biggest complaint I've seen, reading the threads, is the 'multi-task' missions. Well, an OFFICIAL POST from a Dev was made, and linked to in this thread already, stating very clearly that those will be optional. YOUR complaint, regarding Influence, has nothing to do with the posts. I've not seen anything saying that influence was reduced. I've played on test, and not noticed ANY reduction in influence off mobs. I ran my character solo through the entire cape trial, and had enough influence to buy my cape, which while not expensive wasn't cheap either, by the influence reward for the missions and the influence off the full tray of enhancers I had at the end of the mission (there's only 1 "defeat" mission, btw, the other three are visit X and hear what they have to say missions). Not only did I buy my cape, but I gave influence away to someone else who had copied over just because I felt like it. But of course, since I'm not being an alarmist, I must be a fanboi, right?
I've stated before - I don't want FORCED grouping.
All Archetypes CAN solo. Some do it slowly, some do it quickly. Some can solo most missions, some can solo fewer missions. And worse comes to worse - a hero can always hunt the streets and stop some crime there. That was always the intent of city zones.
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The Dev's HAVE Given a clear answer to your question:
Statesman:[ QUOTE ]
Just to clarify something here. I said that I wanted every Archetype to be able to solo. In other words, if someone logs on, and they don't feel like teaming up with someone else, there's still something for them to do. All Archetypes can currently do this...but some builds are stronger in groups, others are stronger solo.
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That's taken from this thread here. The thread has been locked, but it's still open for reading.
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This here is exactly what I returned to find PMed to me from Statesman, this is what I am looking for.
As usual, a great bunch of caring developers with the genius to see that it is done RIGHT.
Gotta love these guys 
That's why I was concerned. If I had to leave this game I would really be disappointed. I just never foresaw it ever becoming an issue is all.
Fanboi: A Lemming of average intelligence that promotes things that HE tried, just to justify his purchase as viable to the world, regardless of whether or not he purchased a bag of dog crap.
Are you a fanboi? /shrug
I LOVE this game. Jack Emmert and his team are some of the brighest talent I have ever witnessed, and there is some real creative genius in there. I can't wait for Villains to see THAT!
Customer service is so far beyond the next guy down they have their own atmosphere to breathe.
They address the issues, they do it in a timely manner, and they do it with loving care, not a nerf bat.
Does that make ME a fanboi? No. That's just stating facts. In order for me to be fanboi, I have to be an A-hole about it hehe.
And a BIG thank you S-Man
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I've stated before - I don't want FORCED grouping.
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Then change the missions that require clicks on multiple blinkies at the same time so that, if someone chooses to solo the mission, it's possible to do so. I can see requiring the simul click if someone brings a group in, but, as they are right now, certain missions on Test are FORCING grouping. Marking them clearly so they can be skipped isn't an answer. I'm being forced to group in order to clear out my contacts' mission lists.
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
Drayvis, I think the point is that YOU are the one with the requirement that you totally empty your contacts of missions.
Now I'll agree that solo missions should never be "blocked" from you because, for example, you get two simultaneous "team only" missions (which would force you to do a team mission to get to the next solo one). But if the mission mechanic is such that this doesn't happen (and I agree strongly that it should be), I don't see the issue. There is no special reward for doing all your missions.
In the situation you describe (assuming the above), the Devs aren't forcing you to team; you are.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I've stated before - I don't want FORCED grouping.
All Archetypes CAN solo. Some do it slowly, some do it quickly. Some can solo most missions, some can solo fewer missions. And worse comes to worse - a hero can always hunt the streets and stop some crime there. That was always the intent of city zones.
[/ QUOTE ]Then why the focus on ATs and their particular powers (some call them nerfs)? Leave them be if some are meant to be slow and some quick.
BTW - I'm a mind controller, so change doesn't affect me - I still have crappy powers. I'm just curious as to why they use development time on AT changes if balance is not the goal in the end.
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I'm just curious as to why they use development time on AT changes if balance is not the goal in the end.
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The idea that balance should be equated with all character types having the same damage output / arrest rate is not one that all people share.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Drayvis, I think the point is that YOU are the one with the requirement that you totally empty your contacts of missions.
Now I'll agree that solo missions should never be "blocked" from you because, for example, you get two simultaneous "team only" missions (which would force you to do a team mission to get to the next solo one). But if the mission mechanic is such that this doesn't happen (and I agree strongly that it should be), I don't see the issue. There is no special reward for doing all your missions.
In the situation you describe (assuming the above), the Devs aren't forcing you to team; you are.
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No, the devs are. By creating missions that cannot be completed without teaming, I'm being forced to team if I want to clear the mission list. I'm sure you'll find that the majority of people who like to do missions like to clear their contact lists.
I'm not saying I never want to bring a team to do missions with me. But I should be able to choose WHICH missions I want to bring a team along on.
Simul-clickies are fine on TFs or trials, where teaming is required to begin with. They're also fine if a player chooses to bring a team into the mission from the start. But, as the ONLY way to complete a regular mission, no. Modify them so they can be done solo if the player chooses to solo the mission.
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
Here's a suggestion: The contact should SAY, in the mission description, BEFORE you accept the mission, whether the encounter is too tough to solo (Archvillian at the end, for example). Maybe in the form of just recommending you get help, that kind of thing.
And oh, another suggestion, stop any and all timed follow-on missions (i don't know it's coming, and after the current mission i want to log, but oh, hey look at that, 90 minutes to finish the next mission, and oh, the counter counts down whether i'm logged in or not). Either stop them, or only start the timer when i've entered the mission, or stop the timer when i log off.
Thanks.
Drayvis,
This is a matter of opinion (I suspect you think it is a matter of fact, but the simple matter that I disagree suggests otherwise) on which I think you won't find enough universal consensus to get what you're looking for. Ultimately, since I don't endeaver to do more than get all my contacts to "max" and do all their story arcs, it's no skin off of my nose either way, so I wish you luck.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Zuzax hit my question. Why are you nerfing skills if you think its ok for some people to solo better than others. Personally I think this is the beginning of a push towards forced grouping. If solo experience drops way below grouped experience that is a form of forced grouping.
Not everyone can solo, I hate to burst your bubble.....I don't think I need to list off who can't because I'm sure you all know........
Purrfectly Innocent - Ice/Ice Domi
"Ice...as beautiful as it is deadly. Maybe that is why I love it so."
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I've stated before - I don't want FORCED grouping.
All Archetypes CAN solo. Some do it slowly, some do it quickly. Some can solo most missions, some can solo fewer missions. And worse comes to worse - a hero can always hunt the streets and stop some crime there. That was always the intent of city zones.
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For 50 levels I played an FF def and I knew that Soloing was very hard for him and after I met and teamed with Blasters and Scrappers the game became more of a joy to me.
I don't have a problem knowing up front that defenders are meant to group, and I agree that soloing them is a slow process and again I love playing him. I met the nicest people on this game as such.
Now I rolled out a Blaster to revisit old zones and try out a new type. Yes, I have leveled faster than with my defender but I have soloed and teamed with defenders and controllers. And I like to give pointers to new defenders about how to play their roles in groups.
Folks, this is a game that offers many choices and I give kudos to Statesman and his team to keep it as such.
I love the people I play with and I am here to stay...
I agree with the previous poster. There is no requirement in the game that you clean out your contacts missions. You have a choice, if you want to solo don't take missions that require 2 or more people. When you have a group you are offered a choice of missions, pick the one you want to do with the group.
just a couple of things.
- First, you have the *option* to get those missions, you can always choose not to get a group mission. You don't have to 'clear' a contact's missions, that is just your personal idea that a contact must be 'cleared'. You're not losing anything by not choosing those missions, they are stand-alone, not part of storyarcs or anything.
- Nerfing or 'fixing' a power is not the same as forcing people to group. The smoke grenade fix is a perfect example. It was making some blasters to beat groups of mobs 4+ levels above them without danger. This was making many other heroes useless, as controllers/healers/tankers weren't needed in a group with a smoke grenade blaster.
I'll just add the caveat that if your build requires non-Power Ten enhancements, then when Issue #2 goes live you will want to get your contacts up to Friend status at least, so that the ones who'll sell non-Power Ten DOs & SOs will open the store. Completing all their missions is nice, but not required.
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Then change the missions that require clicks on multiple blinkies at the same time so that, if someone chooses to solo the mission, it's possible to do so.
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As I recall, there is a post from one of the devs in the test forum where they said they would not make it mandatory to take those missions as part of the mission chain that you get from your contacts. You'll still have the option to accept them, but they will not be the only option at any time, so that the solo player can skip them, but people planning to team can still try them.
It's a nice bit of middle ground, it leaves those missions in for groups that want to try them, without hijacking a contact if you prefer to solo your missions-- you won't have to worry about being stuck with one of those missions.
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Door missions give more exp, and are slightly shifted in mob strength. This will help you level faster solo, greater rewards for doing 1 door mission a night.
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I'm not actually concerned with leveling exp, though it's an important positive change for many reasons. That's why my main is a level 30 and not a 50.
But my concern is with the acquisiton of enhancement rewards which determine my ability to perform in the field. Often, at these levels, you must hunt the outdoors to acquire these in order to sell, and purchase SO enhancers which address YOUR character build to create that nominal character.
If I can no longer experience THESE rewards, then leveling is meaningless as in 2 levels my enhancement situation reduces me to purchasing a whole new set.
In order to perform in many missions, my enhancements must be optimized or I get owned. This is the way the game is designed at its basic level. Getting my 30 to 50 tomorrow is not the greatest interest I have. This particular character has 10 souveniers, I do the missions and enjoy the sequence.
Now.
If I can no longer hunt for the enhancements without interfering with somebody else of a lower level, because I must face blues now instead of yellows, I end up in a situation where the return on my time put into playing has been reduced to the point where it becomes more grief for me than normally dealing with the KSers out there, and group griefers if forced to go that way. I end up spending twice the time at least to accomplish the same goal...
...just to go back to doing the missions once I am properly optimized.
The problem I face is with mission rewards.
When I do nothing but missions, the enhancements returned to me are not enough to gain the influence to purchase that whole new set every few levels.
Therefore, I have to hunt outdoors to get enough of them. For example, at level 30, I am still 250,000 influence short of completing the level 30 set of SO enhancements I require. Gaining THAT should take me no more than a couple hours of devoted hunting. Maybe complete by Wednesday if I am lucky and have the time.
But, all this does is fill me with Gray enhancers, and already I must be thinking of the level 32 acquisitions. Doing the missions MIGHT return more experience, but to me this is a negative change because I will reach 32 before I can even come close to affording the needed enhancements.
...and I won't be able to solo the outdoors nearly as well, causing me to spend more time with debt and griefers than I intended originally. A lot more time.
THIS game is all about enhancement management at any level, from the strategic standpoint, and inspiration management at the tactical level. If this is messed with in the wrong manner, it changes the entire game in a negative way that I might not be able to overcome simply by saying "Oooh, a new challenge".
This may be the only game in history that I will be forced to give up for this issue. Usually it's because the customer service treats me like I owe them something :P
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Instead of theorizing - go freaking try it. Don't ask us all these hypothetical questions because I've tried it and I can solo just fine.