Sogrip

No, they don't suck. However, I've found a few things are key. They're a lot harder to play as a first character, since you won't have the infamy for DOs or SOs off the bat. And Doms really need those upgrades.

Doms are fun, but a lot more fun in small groups than a) solo or b) big groups. Solo, low level doms just don't compare to the other ATs. At all. In big groups, prior to the 30s (and even after, to some degree), Doms just don't have the tools to do either job well. They offer limited to acceptable CC for large spawns and mediocre damage (and don't have the tools to survive significant aggro, as a general rule).

That said, in teams of about 2-5, Doms are a heck of a lot of fun and can make a huge contribution.

People say that they aren't good because they don't really excel at anything. They can control competently, but don't offer a significant amount of support (and if they're focusing on damage, they're controlling less as a general rule). They do moderate damage, but can't take a lot of aggro and don't have many tools beyond CC to mitigate it.

Overall, as much as I like Doms, when I'm forming a large team, I take them knowing that, as a general rule, a corruptor, MM, or Brute will bring more to the table. I still want them along, since they do have a role.

On the other hand, when I want a duo partner for my stalker or a third for a trio, I'll jump at the opportunity to invite a dom.

That's an old story though. Scrappers complained about how hard-done by they were on teams for ages. Then it was blasters that weren't needed. Controllers have gone through that stage. Nowadays, CoH teams are pretty balanced. CoV is still working on it, with stalkers and doms at the bottom of the heap at present.

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I can NOT believe that a melee type has the freakin' audacity to come into a squishy forum and whine about PvP. Defenders, with the lone exception of stormers, are the easiest targets in PvP.

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Having played from both sides, I think it's safe to say that it's not just defenders. It's 90% defenders, controllers, corruptors, dominators, and masterminds. Excepting Hurricane versus melee and PFF users. Blasters have actually proven to not be that badly off, because they have enough damage to overcome the lack of CC resist if they're well played.

I'd actually place most dominators and corruptors below defenders, except for one little thing. Stalkers. With stalkers running around on the villain side, defenders and controllers end up feeling a lot more 'squishy' than their villainous counterparts. But in the end, there isn't much difference between being dropped in one-shot by AS or two shots by an EM stalker and being dropped in two or three shots by a scrapper or blapper. Only difference is you don't see the stalker coming, while the scrapper or blaster might take the time to stun or hold you before they attack.

Presuming it isn't melee versus 'cane, you aren't using PFF, or one or two other potential escapes.

It would be unfortunate if they nerf Hurricane. Sure, it's effective against melee only enemies in BB, Siren's, and Warburg. And that will likely end in Recluse's Victory once the melee villains can hit 40+ and get access to ranged CC like Tankers and Scrappers do.

And even in BB, SC, and Warburg, it's use is limited to preventing melee attacks from those that don't have a specific counter (Like, oh, say any ranged attack or a single ranged CC or lucky melee CC with a joust). Only reason it stands out is that 50% of the villain PVP population is made up of stalkers. And the smart ones can still manage to get past it.

Can't say I feel too sorry for them. I've played with and against it, and Hurricane might be make a solo defender/controller mostly immune to stalkers, but this game isn't balanced for solo anyways. Otherwise, those stalkers wouldn't be basically immune to most defenders and controllers. And if the Hurricane drops, it's easy enough to one shot the user.

As for Stalkers either killing someone or dying... only if they build around 'two powers.' Build for a balanced offense and defense and you can manage quite nicely in a scrap. Sure, scrappers can crush them if they fight without using their abilities. But then, there's a reason scrappers seem to make up 50% of the Hero PVP population.

Very nice summation. One point that might make an interesting addition is the very fragile nature of the Peacebringer/Warshade alliance, as evidenced by a few of the early Kheldian story-arcs. The 'internal' politics of the two factions make for interesting character possibilities.

Untouchable is in COV and there should be a progress bar for it. However, only your basic Consig. and Underbosses count for it, not all Family bosses.

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TP Foe can miss. I think that makes it balanced enough. Second, the person who has been teleported can react before the person who is teleporting.

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Not really. I can TP foe a target, placate then, and begin AS unless they were actively using a movement power or have an aurea. I can TP foe a target with Total Focus or a pure CC power set up to follow. I can TP foe a target onto mines. The only reason to use TP foe is because it provides such a massive advantage. And given that a 'miss' gives no indication to the target and there is little to nothing they can do on the far end if I've done things even partially right, balanced is hardly the word to use.

And in a team environment, it isn't used in fights. It's used to pull a target into the middle of a group. They don't 'lose' anyone to the use of TP foe. Instead, it's a free elimination. I set up above a hotspot or on a building in Warburg, buff my group up with a couple layers of stealth, and start porting people up, and it's done. Even if the hypothetical other group reacts quickly (because I'm not just ganking solo people), they'll still be down two or three people before they can respond, and I'll inevitably have chosen the squishies.

Moreover, even they react quickly, ported into a group, there's not much to do. I watched a group with 3/4 layers of perception (couple of tactics, IR goggles) and several TP'rs chain TP targets from the villain base into the middle of their group, out of LOS of the base. Even hidden stalkers were getting it from very long range, thanks to the massive +perception the group had. The interesting thing was, even if the target got past the multiple hits of CC that followed instantly after the port, they couldn't get away. Why? Because as the first person was finishing their TP, a second person in the group started theirs.

Yes, there's 'tactics' and coordination to it. But it's seriously unbalanced and doesn't make for healthy PVP.

Really, right now, there seem to be three primary issues with PVP. One-shots, easily addressed. TP foe, which can be reduced without gutting the power (as per some of the above suggestions, I personally like the intangability). And +perception, because the perception/stealth system is broken. (and I don't see an 'easy' fix here.)

Some minor corrections/adjustments:

Electrician also seems to count the Bat'zul animated Clockwork in Cap from comments from some posters.

Pirate opens up Velata as a contact in Port Oakes (5-10).

There are Shivans in several missions in the 10-20 range, so you can get it through those if you put a large team together.

Strike Buster is 100 scrapyarders. Hammer Down is for The Ghost of Scrapyard. Hammerhead is for 100 of the Ghost's linked scrapyarders (the ones that run for the door when he falls).

Hellspawned is 50 Damned, not 100, I believe.

Silver Bullet is for Lt. and Boss wolves, doesn't count minions (or didn't, last time I checked).

Soulbinder is 200 mages, I believe, not 250. Like Tracer, Illusionist, and Banisher, which were all at 200 and required for Archmage in COH.

The +perception/+stealth balance is broken. Yes, heroes can build up enough +perception to see through the +stealth that stalkers can get. If the stalker doesn't stack +stealth through multiple (mostly pool) powers, but tries to use their inherent, they can be spotted at massive ranges. And it renders all other forms of stealth worthless for other villains.

However, to do that, the hero side has to build specifically for PVP. Which isn't a huge problem at the moment, given the number of 50s that can switch their builds around for it. But at the same time, the villains are not required to do so. Yes, stalkers can build for maximum efficiency in PVP by picking up Stealth, maybe grabbing TP foe. But that's nothing compared to the slots required for the hero group to counter the stalkers.

Ultimately, the system doesn't work. It needs to be rebuilt to address the concerns. Something needs to be done. Copy DAOC or WOW, if you need to. Reduce the impact of +perception across the board so that stealth powers of all kinds can play a larger role. Allow targets without +perception to see through all forms of stealth at point-blank ranges, but prevent hotkey/tab targeting of them, to give the stalker time to get off an AS if they're quick.

Eliminate one shots (only natural ones I can think of are scrappers (criticals) and stalkers (AS), I haven't run into anything else that comes close to that from a single character. And if it's a team, that's not a one-shot.)

Best solution to TP foe I've heard: 5 seconds of intangibility after the port (as they're pulled through the dimensions). The target gets time to run, if they react quickly. Won't change PvE much, and will prevent a good chunk of the TP foe nonsense we're seeing now. No more porting people into minefields, full groups, or placate/AS.

For Silver Bullet, only Lt. and Boss wolves count (The Pit is a good place for them). Slayer counts any Vampire (Best way to get this is to run the 20-25 SF in a large group, but they occasionally spawn in Crimson Cove in Nerva as well in smallish groups.)

For Strike Buster, it's 100 Scrapyarders of any type. Hammerhead is 100 of the Ghost's linked Scrapyarders.

Taser, believe it works like this:

Forward Observer for a patrol mission in BB.

Reinforcements is for a buff mission in BB. (Can't remember if I got it on my heroes)

Disruptor is for a debuff mission in BB. (Can't remember if I got it on my heroes)

Agent is for any mission in Siren's. (might be specific, but I've always got it on the first one)

Not sure if it has to be your mission or not, always solo them with the characters that can actually get them.


As a note, anyone able to confirm if Coldhearted is 100 Hordeling Berzerkers?

In PVE, stalkers are late bloomers, like controllers and dominators. Because of the sheer number of powers you need to get and slot, you don't find an effective balance of offense/defense until the mid-20s. Which is also about when SOs become more available and make a difference.

However, stalkers are playable until the mid-20s with relatively little difficulty (I haven't died many times at all, and usually when I've done something to deserve it). After the mid-20s, once you have a selection of secondary attacks and slots in your defenses, they become much more effective. Three +1 minions go from a challenge to a one-shot, two/three shot, one shot situation, rinse, repeat.

That said, multi-wave ambush and escort 'pet' missions can be a huge issue (not escort captive missions, those are simply enough). As a stalker, I've never hated any mission more than the 'free three prisoners from the Zig' mission. My other ATs blew through it. Stalker... Hate. Hate. Hate. (you get the picture, but this goes on for a while). On the other hand, I don't see many solutions to it that don't completely trivialize this content for stalkers, which would be the wrong approach in itself, so I can live with the two or three missions every five levels that work this way.

However, in PVP, stalkers don't work. AS can be fixed easily enough with a quick and dirty change to stop one-shots. However, the entire perception system is flawed. Critically flawed. And needs to be redesigned.

As it stands, Hide becomes much, much less useful in PVP for the purpose it was intended. Instead, Stalkers are required to pick up hide+stealth, and hopefully have someone with grant invis around. In order to try and counter that, heroes are having to use specific PVP builds that are designed to counter stalkers with stacking perception.

In the end, if the heroes have enough +perception, the stalker becomes a bottom-feeder trying to catch them when they're all distracted, or just gets killed when they get too close. If the stalker has enough +stealth, they can walk up to the heroes and take apart a target (and potentially escape, depending on travel power, target, etc.) In order to counter the failure of the stealth system, we're seeing tele-stalkers now, that use teleport foe, placate, and AS to one-shot low hit point, non-CC resist targets.

Borrow from DAOC and WOW. Something along the lines of (and this is suggestion only): Reduce the impact of +perception, allowing people with it to see stalkers at a reduced distance from current, but make it scaling, so that if you have one level of +perception, you can see stalkers at 15ft. regardless of their stealth, two levels would be 45ft. etc. Change it so that even without +perception, you can see a stalker when they're in melee range. To try balance this out, remove Tab or hotkey targeting of stalkers under stealth. Require manual targeting.

Obviously not a perfect suggestion, but the current situation is broken, for both sides.

Poor Castle, it's going to be ugly when the worm turns.

While the defense increase is nice for the EA stalkers, I'd feel better about the other changes if it was possible to increase the magnitude of the teleport or repel effect to get past the resistance.

To be honest, I didn't mind the current system. Having one or two ATs that couldn't be easily dealt with by melee wasn't a huge concern, particularly given the overall weakness of defenders (most controllers, corruptors, and dominators) in PVP thanks to limited defenses, complete lack of CC protection (particularly with regards to toggle dropping), and low health. Particularly given that to stop a repel effect, all it takes is ranged damage or a single ranged CC power.

I imagine Hurricane will at least continue to interrupt AS (as well it should) even through the repel resistance, which means that sets with CC effects (Energy melee in general, cobra strike, etc.) will now be set for wiping out the squishies that were previously able to deal with stalkers. (disorient, Placate, AS) Kind of a shame, really.

But then, I'm fine with the way my stalker plays. If anything, I'm looking forward to the one-shot solution and inevitable change to the way 'stealth' works.

This is the way it's meant to be. The devs have stated repeatedly that it was never meant for one character to experience all the content in the game. In fact, there isn't that signficant a difference from COH, really.

If you group in either, you'll be lucky to clear two or three contacts of missions, nevermind all of them. The hardcore mission soloists can do it (even in COV), but characters that only group can't even come close, even if you only have one or two designated mission takers.

It gives you something new to experience with an alt. Considering how many people complain there isn't enough content or that the content doesn't vary enough...


As for the buggy mission from Dr. Percy, it's finishable. However, there are a number of factors. One, sometimes ambushes don't trigger (this happens when you hold off trying to complete the mission for a few levels). Two, the enemies at the object start beating on it when you get within a certain distance, regardless of LoS. So if you are on the other side of a wall... too bad. If you want to have a chance, when you hit the 4th floor, run through and hope you can find the glowie, beat the guards, the ambush, and any stragglers you've picked up before they do too much damage. If you do, beat a few waves of bad guys after the object, and you're done. It depends on luck though, to a large extent, since you have to get to the object before the bad guys blow it away.

Either way, the bugginess causes a lot of unnecessary, unfaulted failures. But they'll fix it. In the mean time, I don't think failing one mission/story-arc will scar your character for life.

Suppressing Stealth while attacking is acceptable, even if it undermines the usefulness of the stealth powers (particularly in view that their defense numbers were dropped and get halved when stealth get suppressed). No longer will you be able to deal with one spawn in a room using stealth if the spawns are close together.

However, that stealth is suppressed when the character is attacked is a very significant change and one that is not a healthy one. It makes normal stealth powers far less useful for travel, as opposed to pure or stacked stealth abilities.

Is this change intended to force characters/groups to stop stealthing through missions to a boss/objective?

If so, the response is... unfortunate. The issues that drive stealthing missions are usually time commitment (pre-Striga TFs, the respec Trials, etc. where spending an hour clearing every mission would only extend the mostly pointless repetition that the door missions represent before you can get to the 'good' stuff), repetitive mission design (oh, another six story-office complex with a Glowie and a boss at the end), or a particularly disliked enemy group or map type (Cave maps, for example). Stealth let people avoid 'content' of this type that was particularly unappealing to them.

This change to stealth, for example, would make the Cavern of Transcendance even more potentially annoying. Troll caves that aren't defeat all but are crawling with repetitive enemy spawns become far more annoying, etc. It certainly doesn't seem conducive to 'fun,' as subjective as that word is.

If this change has to go into effect, please consider reducing the stealth suppression effect to the same duration as the movement suppression effect. 4 seconds, while still unappetizing, will not render stealth quite as useless for purposes for travel.

While I suspect I will be dropping Burn after I5 comes live and replacing it with an AoE, I don't think it will have a huge impact on me. I'm Fire/Fire though, so I have more AoE options than other secondaries. I'd hate to have to try and re-develop a non-AoE secondary to make up for the loss of Burn.

I mostly group and didn't use it much when grouped in comparison to the rest of my attacks that create aggro, rather than lose it. I went for aggro, rather than damage, since scrappers, Kheldians, and blasters managed that side of it better than I did, even with Burn. An extra AoE to help hold aggro with the AoE limit and Taunt limit changes will actually improve my grouping abilities in I5.

I will miss Burn for those occasions when I went soloing, as the Burn/Taunt combination let me defeat +4 enemies easily enough and +5 with patience (higher than that just took too long), since accuracy plays such a small role with those powers. But as a general rule, +2/+3 enemies were much better experience anyways when I solo'd, as those groups dropped far more quickly. Switching Burn with another AoE will slow things down slightly for the +2/+3 groups, and I'll need to watch my endurance more carefully, but with Consume, shouldn't be a huge problem there.

As Fire/Fire, my reaction is mostly to shrug. A few minor changes to play-style and a power-switch and I'll be able to adjust, even if I lose a bit of over-all efficiency. However, I have a great deal of sympathy for Fire/* that don't have the AoE options. They'll be using more endurance, taking longer to defeat enemies (with even more damage due to changes in Def and Res), and having a harder time with aggro thanks to the taunt and AoE limits. Scaling the Fear changes back to I4 seems a reasonable change for those tanks, given the recharge increase and damage reduction.