Stalkers are unbalanced.
We have binary protection, and extremely limited tactics.
We're either 99% effective or 1% effective, and no in-between.
Victims see the AS, but the don't see all the waiting and watching that led up to it, and all the failures, so it's understandable that that gets ignored. On the other hand, one success is all it takes to overcome a dozen failed attempts to kill.
Our mere existance has singlehandedly changed the tactics of everyone in CoX PvP.
That's an awful lot to sort through before I can answer if stalkers are overpowered. How do you measure if an unbalanced archetype is overpowered, anyway? (well, 99% of the time we're overpowered to X archetype, and 1% of the time we're overpowered when facing Y archetype?)
We're unbalanced, and designed to be so. Until all players get accustomed to stalker tactics(and anti-stalker tactics), I don't think it's possible to say with certainty that we're overpowered.
It a fair question, and its hard to say. I can understand the frustration of getting one or two shotted (very few escape the energy transfer that comes after assassin strike), but, by the same token there are alot of ways to counter what we do, and more then a few perception powers out there. I suppose when you balance what stalkers can do vs the sheer damage of blasters or the chain holds of controller, I would say we're on the tough end of the PVP stick, but, to say we're overpowered would be a bit much. Stalkers do require other AT's to adjust for us being out there, and sometimes its hard to avoid the AS once big fights start, but, I think with some thought most of us could put together a build that would be hell on Stalkers.
No...to the new pvper out there of course it seems that way.
Stalkers are like every other pvp build out there..some builds have no chance against us, others it's going to be a fight for us, and other builds we have no chance against.
Seriously check the general PvP forum all the whinning and nerf calling that's been over since I4 started right back up again. All the new players who stayed out of the arena are now having to play catch up. Either you find a way to adapt or you get killed repeatedly.
I'd even be willing to bet that most of the serious PvPers have stalkers...so what is being seen is good players vs bad players. Seems most of my kills against tanks and scrappers is nothing other then me out playing them.
Not anymore, that's for sure. I was just on, I can't even kill Blues and Whites with AS anymore. Looks like we've been hit with the nerf hammer.
[ QUOTE ]
Victims see the AS, but they don't see all the waiting and watching that led up to it...
[/ QUOTE ]
Had to co-sign this.
No I do not think we are overpowered. I get around the same amount of kills in sirens call as any other melee based AT. Personally I think playing a stalker is great fun... I sneak up on someone to AS them but then see the scrapper hiding in the dark corner watching the bait and ready to pounce. I cant get enough.
If anything needs to change its the ability to oneshot heroes. if we could just take them downt to 1hp and then finish them off I think it would be a llittle less agravating for other classes. It would give them an opportunity (however slim) to pop back some heals and send us running.
But hey what do I know I only have 4 Stalkers 
[ QUOTE ]
Not anymore, that's for sure. I was just on, I can't even kill Blues and Whites with AS anymore. Looks like we've been hit with the nerf hammer.
[/ QUOTE ]
What kind of mobs are you fighting and how did you slot AS?
"Through Avarice evil smiles; through insanity it sings"
Forum Troll Rule #1: Anyone who disagrees with my point of view is either a fanboy or an idiot.
I'm a proud carebear.
[ QUOTE ]
yes. we all know it. everyone is saying that we are over powered. so i have a question, what do you guys think?
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't find Stalkers to be overpowered, or unbalanced. Yeah, I see that people are screaming their heads off about Stalkers, but I imagine some of that will change, at least, when people begin to recognise and develop the skills and tactics that are really quite effective against Stalkers. Compared to other ATs, we _can_ pour out a lot of damage very quickly, however, it's almost all ST and our defenses are the weakest of any melee AT. Additionally, our 'signature' attack is vulnerable to a pretty wide array of powers that can interrupt it, not to mention it has to be executed while stationary, generally on stationary targets. These are restrictions that no other AT faces when outputting damage, and there _are_ combinations found in other AT builds that can output tremendous damage without facing these contingencies. So, overall, I find them to be pretty well balanced; perhaps the best of any of the ATs.
In PvP, I think players are going to need to become comfortable with the idea that they will be attacked by Stalkers when they are, generally, least able to defend themselves. So, it mostly becomes an issue of making yourself too difficult a target to be attractive, and accept being killed on those few moments you've let your guard down or are otherwise vulnerable. I already got used to that with my Controller when Scrappers would swoop down upon me in similar circumstances, so I guess I was already pretty well prepared for the advent of Stalkers in PvP. However, playing a Stalker into the 30s has also helped me develop anti-Stalker tactics tremendously.
So, again, I don't think the Stalker AT is overpowered, and this is coming from the perspective of playing as a Stalker and also playing against them as both a Blaster and a Controller. Yeah, they're dangerous, but it's simply false that they are impossible to defend against; in fact, many are fairly easy to defend against. Generally speaking, when playing a hero, I'm still much more worried about the Scrappers and Ice Blasters in Warburg than I am the Stalkers.
They should probably do away with the one-shot kills. Other than that, we're fine.
As fast as I die when my toggles drop? No.
Considering that brutes regular DPS is only half of what im doing with an AS? No.
Taking into account that you need no less than 3 pool powers (besides travel) to no suck? No.
Lets just SAY IT FOR WHAT IT REALLY IS:
ASSASSIN STRIKE PISSES PEOPLE OFF IN PVP AND THE IMMATURE AND THE WHINERS COMPLAIN ABOUT IT ALL THE TIME
[ QUOTE ]
They should probably do away with the one-shot kills. Other than that, we're fine.
[/ QUOTE ]
I guess. I usually play my Controller in PvP (when I play as a hero) which means I'm suceptible to the one-shot, and I still don't find it to be particularly offensive considering the difficulty involved in actually landing an AS on me, in general. I find that, once one develops some basic skills to fend off Stalkers, Scrappers and Blasters remain greater threats, generally, in PvP.
Additionally, I'd actually rather have the one-shot. Changing it to two shots would leave me highly vulnerable to NPC kills, and thus debt. Changing it to three-shot, I think, would be pretty unreasonable towards Stalkers given their relative level of defense in PvP as well as the aforementioned level of difficulty and array of contingencies involved with a successful application of AS (and just playing as a Stalker in general).
Honestly, I'd rather give it some time and allow people to adapt to the AT. Stalkers operate on a different paradigm than do the other ATs, in general, which I imagine contributes heavily to the public misconceptions about them. Hopefully, with time, this will be remedied as players gain more experience with them.
I'm with ya quason if they take that same ability away from every other AT combo that can do it. We aren't the first and won't be the last.
Im still not sure what the big deal is, I've been drop'd more often by a hover/stealth/snipe blaster then anything else, and they dont have to get close to do it.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm with ya quason if they take that same ability away from every other AT combo that can do it. We aren't the first and won't be the last.
[/ QUOTE ]
Whatever they do to get rid of the one-shot kills should apply to all ATs, yes. Including the infamous TP Foe into stacked trip mines insta-death. The coding to get rid of it would probably be somewhat tough to do, though. Maybe some kind of maximum damage per second someone can receive? I'm not sure how they should do it. They'll be doing it somehow though, Dev's have already said that. They're just hung up on the 'how' right now.
As for if Stalkers are 'overpowered', from the standpoint of difficulty in setting up kills and number of kills, probably not. The problem is it isn't fun to be one-shot, or even to die from the stun/placate/AS combo*. People don't like situations where they feel they can't fight back. It's the same principle as why there's mez suppression and Breakfrees. If Controllers worked the same way against players as they did against mobs, they wouldn't necessarily be 'overpowered'** but it would be horribly unfun for the victim.
I think they have the balance right for Stalkers as far as killing power vs Defense. The issue they're looking at is how much fun it is for the victim. Thing is, they can't go too far or then the Stalkers won't be fun to play. Balancing 'fun' is even harder than balacing power. I don't envy the Devs on that task. 
*Frequently by the time you hit that Breakfree, you've already been Placated and AS has started. Without some kind of non-targetted attack to interupt the AS, you're doomed.
**Well, Illusion would be way overpowered, but Illusion plays more like a hybrid than a regular Controller.
Gothika (Grav/Kin) Marionette (Ill/Rad) Terra Firma (Earth/Storm) Alana Dale (Arch/Nrg)
Iceblink (Ice/Dark) Fantasia (Mind/Fire) Shadow Minx (Claws/Nin)
--Virtue
[ QUOTE ]
Whatever they do to get rid of the one-shot kills should apply to all ATs, yes.
[/ QUOTE ]
Generally it's not really one-shotting that's the problem. It's being able to drop someone in 2 or 3 quick hits before they can react. AS is just the most obvious symptom of the burst damage issue.
It's like the AV problems people complain(ed) about - it's not that the AV kills you with one hit (though that would sometimes happen too), it's the one-two combo of powerful attacks that would lay people out before they could even get a chance to animate a heal.
I mean, there are ice/energy blasters that can do enough burst damage to annihilate my stalker in the time it takes to animate one of the spines attacks. I don't complain about this, because fair's fair after all... but if they make a change to AS because it's burst damage, it should apply to all burst damage attack chains, or that *won't* be fair.
@Mindshadow
Nope,
As a Nin/Nin I have no stunning attacks.
I have no immobilizing attacks.
I have no range attacks.
I have a highly resisted damage type.
I have no knockback protection.
I am the weakest stalker. Without hide...I'm the weakest melee AT.
Without our AS we are nothing. Its simple thats is a base damage, anything else we have sucks except energy transfer and a few others, but in that case if we dont use AS we just become poor gimped scrappers.
I tend to agree with Egos, but, I don't think whatever fix they apply to AS and other high damage attacks will help with peoples negative views on stalkers. Even if they make it so AS will only bring people down to 25% health the second attack will still likely kill them (in my case energy transfer), and I hope they don't make it something silly like bringing pc's down to only one hitpoint. That would be asking for trouble. I didn't play in the beta, but, I would think the devs would have realized Stalkers were going to be a very controversial AT from the get go.
I feel sure that the devs will do something small to tone down Stalkers. And because Stalkers ride the razor's edge between uber (hidden BU+AS) and gimp (low HP, low base damage), it has a good chance to obliterate the Stalker AT.
The devs should admit that Stalker's are amazingly balanced and not in the bland decent at everything/great at nothing sense, but in the incredible sometimes/crappy other times thrill ride sense. It's the dichotomy that is Stalkers and the intracacy that is MMs that has saved COH/COV. Without these two very odd ATs, the game would die a long bland death. With them, there is hope that Cryptic can make exciting ATs with extreme strengths and weaknesses.
PVP bears this out. The best Stalkers I know either:
A) Patiently chose defenseless targets and get very few but very safe kills
B) Kill anything they can in often dangerous surroundings and get very many kills at the expense of a lot of ignominous defeats when Hide is suppressed.
And that is as it should be.
PRTECTR4EVR
all i can say is a corrupter told me i wasnt squishy i responded by saying well after my AS i certainly feel squishy.
that and we have to admit that it takes times to develop skill and some people have to suck up their ego.
The only stalker set that could be even considered is overpowered is spines. The rest are pretty bad. AS itself is a pretty bad power, sure it's amazing for killing newbies and AI but it's lackluster at best against people who know what they are doing. Impale is downright godly in PvP though. I would still consider blappers way more overpowered than any stalker build though.
yes yes, the great question.
Are stalkers overpowered?
The answer ?
Everyone should already know stalkers are not desirable teammates in most scenarios. By that I mean, they cant fight in pve nearly as well as other AT's.(not to say people avoid them often, just that in almost any case outside of being the only stalker in an SF you could be replaced by any other AT and increase the teams strength.)
A stalker is nearly completely useless(in pvp) without assassins strike, he is far too squishy to scrap and doesnt do a great deal of damage outside of criticals.(unless maybe your energy)
If you- Hit a stalker - have an aura that hits a stalker- have nearby auras or area power such as caltrops- have good enough perception- or simply know how to avoid the AS by movement you render the entire stalker AT almost completely incapable of fighting.(for a duration at least)
In short, No other AT is as WEAK as a stalker is.
But, if you happen to be nearby when a stalker is stealthed, you cant see him.. and you have no auras on. perhaps your even damaged depending on your AT, and your standing still(or in rare occasions usualy with skillfull stalkers he may predict where you will be in the next moment and spam the AS button)
Then.. you may get one shotted.
If the stalker is overpowered then every other AT in the game needs one way to lose its ability to deal damage in pvp.
(exluding any kind of hold as they effect stalkers too)
Im tired of annoying little babies crying the stalker is overpowered, The only doable decrease in the stalker would be maybe a 10% damage penalty when ASing in pvp.
That would however not remove any of the stalkers who 1shot wounded foes, people who pop reds, or those who double AS with a friend.
(if you didnt understand what I just said, it means you will STILL be one shotted.)
_
Rather than being like all of the stupid people of the world, instead of telling me "Stalkers are overpowered!" "Nerf stalkers!" how about you take into account that AS is a stalkers primary(and almost only) weapon in pvp AND pve you could instead come up with a reasonable way to balance things out and SHARE IT WITH US?
Im sorry if this post came out to sound angry, im not really angry and I dont play my stalker much anymore as ive found the AT to become somewhat boring in later levels.
Ill try to reply to any posters who comment on this post, I may forget to though
I don't think Stalkers are overpowered, just the ability Assassin Strike. Of course there are ways to protect myself from it, the point is that no hero or villain should be given the ability to kill with one hit in the first place.
Unfortunatley, since it seems to be the only efficient pvp power early on in the powerset, it's the only one used. That seems unfair and unbalanced for both the stalker and their prey. can't we tweak the numbers a bit, tone it down a little and bring the other attacks up in damage a little?
All too often I find myself lying dead on the ground of Siren's Call simply because i stopped moving for a moment. I can't always be in motion, and I can't always have defensive buffs from other players, and I honestly don't mind being soundly defeated in pvp, I just find it impossible to enjoy myself when every moment spent in a pvp zone has to be focused on avoiding only 1 skill from 1 archetype.
The biggest problem with this issue is that the ability to kill with 1 strike is, of course, going to be EXTREMELY popular, and true to form, I am hit with an AS like clockwork, once every 2 minutes on average. This proves to me that Stalker with AS is the "best" build, and there can never be a "best" build in a multiplayer game where balance is absolutely essential.
As somebody who takes pleasure in being defeated by cunning and ability, and who looks forward to revenge, the complete and total lack of joy and desire for revenge after an assassin strike tells me that this power still needs a bit of tweaking, and maybe the rest of the Stalker set needs a bit of a powerup. I would love to see what other skills Stalkers possess, but they only ever use 1 skill on me, and that's sad, sad for them, sad for me, and sad for the entire pvp experience...
Heya,
[ QUOTE ]
As somebody who takes pleasure in being defeated by cunning and ability, and who looks forward to revenge, the complete and total lack of joy and desire for revenge after an assassin strike tells me that this power still needs a bit of tweaking, and maybe the rest of the Stalker set needs a bit of a powerup. I would love to see what other skills Stalkers possess, but they only ever use 1 skill on me, and that's sad, sad for them, sad for me, and sad for the entire pvp experience...
[/ QUOTE ]
As far as my experience of stalkers go, as of right now AS, Placate, and Hide are the three mainstays of all Stalkers. I haven't experienced higher level play yet (my top Stalker is only 11), but really... That's how it should be... If you try anything else, you'll just turn them into glorified scrappers with the hit points of a controller.
The only way to make everyone happy is just to remove the AT from the game. (Not that I'm arguing for that, I happen to LIKE Stalkers, and have a few of them... I don't know if I'll be PvPing with them, though, because I've never really enjoyed PvP.)
I can understand the frustration with being one shotted, I would probably hate it too (one of the reasons I don't think I'll be PvPing any time soon)... but I just can't see a solution. (And toning down AS would impinge on PvE, unless you only made the changes effect PvP.)
yes. we all know it. everyone is saying that we are over powered. so i have a question, what do you guys think?