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Nope,
As a Nin/Nin I have no stunning attacks.
I have no immobilizing attacks.
I have no range attacks.
I have a highly resisted damage type.
I have no knockback protection.
I am the weakest stalker. Without hide...I'm the weakest melee AT.
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*signs*
Ever had a tank look at you and tell you "I laugh at lethal."? And literally do it over and over again until you get lucky enough to drop just the right toggles and finally faceplant him?
Let's face facts, stealth/backstab classes are a popular part of nearly every MMO. Heck, Guild Wars is getting an Assasin class, and as a former player I'd have never thought it would happen.
Why? Because it's FUN for crap's sake! Versus any other AT I've played, both PvP and PvE I prefer the stalker. I like the aesthetic. I like the thrill of the quick kill. I even like the frustration when I miscalculate and get whacked utterly. As a Stalker in Siren's call, I spend a lot of time chuckling at the rampant stalker paranoia. There may be all of two stalkers in the zone, yet you'd swear there were twenty. The problem people generally have is overestimating our abilities. They think we can placate at will, they think we can one shot everything, and most of all they think it's easy to land said one shot kill.
The reality? Playing a stalker is the most complex AT you could possibly attempt. You'd think it was the MM, but once you've got a few nice binds set up, playing an MM is no more difficult that playing a decent controller. When you're doing well, you're doing EXTREMELY well. When you're doing poorly, you're dead.
For the people who claim stalkers are overpowered:
Go play a stalker for 30 levels, and get back to me.
Edit: As for the "stalkers ruin PvP" argument... As I understood it PvP was massively unpopular before CoV... Now it's suddenly all the rage. Strange, isn't it?
If you ask me the Stalker AT feels fairly well balanced, its a fine, fine line really. I truly feel most the folks whining about Stalkers never got one past lvl 15. I really truly have to work for mine out there. Also I think its tricky guaging balance right now since the Hero ratio is grossly outbalanced, mostly a lot of high lvl 40+ heroes dominating the playfield. Villains have their days but once the lvl cap goes up and Villains have had some months to 'grow' I think we can better guage blance in PvP.
any AT with the right person playing can beat any other AT, everyone has weaknesses, most of the weaknesses in pvp arent the AT's people play, its the people playing them, some people see a build and they make a decent killing machine for pvp and then die, why, was the build wrong, is this other guy cheating, are they overpowered, why am i weak, and instead of them looking in the mirror, they want to point fingers at others who are just better then they are. if you've pvp'd in many games and you do your research and your trial and error, you will come ontop reguardless of AT build, there are some sick combos out there and if your good enough you can take them down too. i'm not the greatest, but i strive to better myself all the time, as a stalker i feel like the underdog, in pve i pull more then my share in most groups, 1shotting lt's, 5 shotting bosses hand-to-hand with them for a minute, i'd say in a 8 person group i get 25% of the kills just because after i 1shot, i scrapp it out and kill another. in pvp, i dont take it seriously yet, so i just find someone, target, follow, SJ, BU, red, red, land, unfollow, AS, auto gambler strike def debuff, soaring dragon, sting of wasp, dead hero, SJ away. im just starting out in pvp in cov so the first 2 kills and one defeat were fun for me, being held for 20+ sec and paper cut to death by a blaster kinda sucked, but oh well. i think stalkers are what they are, NINJA'S, plain and simple, get in "assassinate", get out. if they fail the AS, then they deserve to die, if they can fight their way out of it then they should hang their heads in shame.
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I don't think Stalkers are overpowered, just the ability Assassin Strike. Of course there are ways to protect myself from it, the point is that no hero or villain should be given the ability to kill with one hit in the first place.
Unfortunatley, since it seems to be the only efficient pvp power early on in the powerset, it's the only one used. That seems unfair and unbalanced for both the stalker and their prey. can't we tweak the numbers a bit, tone it down a little and bring the other attacks up in damage a little?
All too often I find myself lying dead on the ground of Siren's Call simply because i stopped moving for a moment. I can't always be in motion, and I can't always have defensive buffs from other players, and I honestly don't mind being soundly defeated in pvp, I just find it impossible to enjoy myself when every moment spent in a pvp zone has to be focused on avoiding only 1 skill from 1 archetype.
The biggest problem with this issue is that the ability to kill with 1 strike is, of course, going to be EXTREMELY popular, and true to form, I am hit with an AS like clockwork, once every 2 minutes on average. This proves to me that Stalker with AS is the "best" build, and there can never be a "best" build in a multiplayer game where balance is absolutely essential.
As somebody who takes pleasure in being defeated by cunning and ability, and who looks forward to revenge, the complete and total lack of joy and desire for revenge after an assassin strike tells me that this power still needs a bit of tweaking, and maybe the rest of the Stalker set needs a bit of a powerup. I would love to see what other skills Stalkers possess, but they only ever use 1 skill on me, and that's sad, sad for them, sad for me, and sad for the entire pvp experience...
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AS _does_ require cunning and ability on targets who proactively protect themselves from Stalkers. Constantly movement is one rather effective way to avoid Stalkers, but there are other powers such as PBAoE repel or damaging auras that work quite well, too, against many Stalkers. I don't even have such an aura on my Controller or Blaster at the moment and I still manage to take out Stalkers more often than they take me out.
Try playing the AT into the 30s and you'll probably be come keenly aware of its weaknesses, which will make you better able to defend against them. Stalkers are not 'the best' in PvP by any stretch of the imagination. I'd still rather go in with an Ice/Energy Blapper or Spines/DA or Regen Scrapper before I'd go in with a Stalker.
What server are you on? If you're on Virtue, I'd be happy to meet up with you and help you out.
As far as spending every moment having to avoid people, that's the nature of PvP in general. Before Stalkers even existed in CoH PvP, my controller had to constantly be on the lookout and on the move to avoid Scrappers and Blappers swooping in on me and killing me in 2 or 3 shots which took about 2 seconds, and they were generally harder to kill than Stalkers.
Powerful, yes. Overpowered? No.
If there was a perma hide then yes I would feel overpowered. Soloing takes longer and has more tactics to deal with, especially in rescue missions than other AT's. Then there is teaming, that alone has me feeling all squishy if I do not place myself well during fights.
Balanced, I think stalkers are very well balanced. I have mine up to lvl 29 and am itching to roll up a second one.
We're in no way overpowered. When I play as a hero, I play as my energy blaster. Got TD and tactics running, sometimes IR goggles. When a stalker get close enough to AS me, I pretend I don't see him and wait for him to start his animation. Then I just drop my nukes on him, resulting in him dying or running.
And playing as a stalker, I find this situation to be very frustrating. So, its definately rock, paper, scissors. We're good against some, terrible against others.
On the PvP side, the only thing that makes us seem unbalanced is that stalkers come ready, out of the box, with a PvP friendly build. We are sort of pre-built like a stealthed melee-blapper...who were doing well as some of the top PvP builds. We have the advantage of also having status protection...but for the most part we don't have all the detoggling attacks.
In my experience no, Stalkers are not overpowered. I get lots of kills in pvp, but I am killed many times also. A PvP built scrapper or Blaster or anyone with an aura...or any tank or brute all stand up well and are very hard for a stalker to win against.
I think what some people are seeing is smart stalkers with extra stealth who load up on inspirations and then AS -one shot kills. Remember that many other AT/s and builds could do almost the same thing.
More important then all of that, since the game is not about pvp...its about pve...I would say we are well balanced for the current post-ED state of the game.
After playing a warshade and a pre-I3 regen scrapper I can honestly say I don't feel overpowered at all.
There needs to be a general limit as to how much damage percentage-wise a single attack can do to a target, and Placate shouldn't be autohit. Other than that, the AT is fine.
Though I would answer no in both cases, I think it's a mistake to simply ask if Stalkers feel overpowered without specifying PvP or PvE. Broken down like that there might be more answers that would point out to the players that are SO concerned with Stalkers in PvP that changes to the AT really need to be PvP specific.
In PvE Stalkers are just fine. Barely.
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Unfortunatley, since it seems to be the only efficient pvp power early on in the powerset, it's the only one used. That seems unfair and unbalanced for both the stalker and their prey. can't we tweak the numbers a bit, tone it down a little and bring the other attacks up in damage a little?
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Good lord no. At that point you might as well just have transferred the Scrapper AT.
I believe that what's down the line is that they are going to make AV class foes not able to be one-shotted. And that players in PvP will be considered AV class foes. I think that's a good compromise that won't effect PvE in any noticeable way, but will remove the complaints about one shotting (and replace them with complaints about two shotting).
Stalkers worry me simply because I'm sure the player base will get them unneccessarily brought down, and they really don't have a lot of wiggle room in PvE.
First off we dont 1 shot every AT. Second if i cant 1 shot a defender or controller that's pathetic. If they nerf AS then they better nerf the one shotting from blasters to(and i never call for nerfing) oh yeah and they better nerf ice also.. When it gets down it to they better not nerf AS.
Its the only thing going for us period. And im not calling for these other Ats to be nerfed, just making a valid point.
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There needs to be a general limit as to how much damage percentage-wise a single attack can do to a target, and Placate shouldn't be autohit. Other than that, the AT is fine.
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There is, I believe in the range of +850% or so.
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On the PvP side, the only thing that makes us seem unbalanced is that stalkers come ready, out of the box, with a PvP friendly build. We are sort of pre-built like a stealthed melee-blapper...who were doing well as some of the top PvP builds. We have the advantage of also having status protection...but for the most part we don't have all the detoggling attacks.
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Very, very good point.
In PvE stalkers are fine. In PvP stalkers are overpowered. Once they cap the assassin strike damage to a reasonable ammount, stalkers might be alright. It's hard to say. In anycase, I'm sure the changes are on the drawing board atm.
I've heard all the arguments about perception etc, they are quite a bit misleading. It isn't as easy as you may think to get perception powers, especially early level when your picking your powers mostly based on PvP. I have played all AT's and I know that when I'm choosing most of my powers up to lvl 30 PvP is generally not high on the list. Now don't get me wrong, I've suffered at times. But realistically not everyone has the luxury of getting tactics etc for the levels needed for the lower zones.
You may say well what about accuracy enhancements. How long do they last? And how many does it take to see the double hide/stealthed stalkers? And how easy is it for stalkers to get away and just wait a minute until those yellow pills are worn off. Yes for arguments sake they are out there, but they don't really affect the battle ground that often, because they are just so impracticle to keep up all the time. And frankly players really don't know when a stalker is around until they use one, and hell they could be wasting them doing it.
So you can't really and honestly say they are working options to counter us stalkers.
And props to all the MA/* stalkers fighting for a better animation to AS , cause i'm rooting for you =)
I can build almost ANY hero AT build with Tactics by Level 30 that would still be easily viable for PvE. Hell, I'm going to be respeccing my Claws/SR Scrapper to have it by 30, and for decent /SR defense, you are nearly FORCED to take every defensive power there is. The only way you can't fit in Tactics into a build by 30 is if you can't adjust your build. At that point, it's not a Stalker AT issue, but a personal issue you have.
If you don't believe me, just give me a build you want and I'd be happy to build it for you with Tactics by 30.
- Ping (@iltat, @Pinghole)
Don't take it personally if you think I was mean to you. I'm an ******* to everyone.
It's a penguin thing. Pingu FTW.
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Not anymore, that's for sure. I was just on, I can't even kill Blues and Whites with AS anymore. Looks like we've been hit with the nerf hammer.
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No, you haven't. The AA powers have not been altered.
There must a be a formula, because I was able to take out an Orange. with AS.
No build up, or Damage enhancements at all, I had 1 Training Accuracy on it.
Also I think the big factor, is if your talking about a Minion, Lt or Boss type of opponent.
The Orange was a Minion.
Honestly, I think some of the characterisations of AS are also misleading. It isn't the most powerful attack in the game (both in BI and actual damage, as Stalkers have a weaker brawl than Blasters and Scrappers), and foes other than Defenders and Controllers can't be one-shot with AS unless you eat a bunch of reds. Additionally, two shotting someone has been around since before Stalkers even existed in PvP, and I can and do get two-shotted by /Energy 'Blappers' in Siren's Call. Additionally, there are being 'ganked' by other players occurred routinely before CoV was even out. In Warburg, I had to _constantly_ keep moving about and watching out for Spines/DA (and other builds) Scrappers as well as Ice/Energy, Ice/Elec, and Ice/Ice Blasters because if I stood still I would be two or three shotted in a few seconds. Stalkers have tools to help them get the jump on people, but I find them no less manageable, and really more manageable, than PvP-built Scrappers and Blaster/Blappers.
I honestly feel AS is pretty well balanced damage-wise considering the difficulty involved in executing it relative to many other attacks on top of Stalkers being the most fragile of the melee ATs. I'm not saying they stink at PvP, but they aren't what I'd pick (or even close, really) if looking to build something for high kill volume in PvP.
I'm good....i mean bad...you know what i mean! LOL
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Logarithm:
Victims see the AS
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No...to the new pvper out there of course it seems that way.
Stalkers are like every other pvp build out there..some builds have no chance against us, others it's going to be a fight for us, and other builds we have no chance against.
Seriously check the general PvP forum all the whining and nerf calling that's been over since I4 started right back up again. All the new players who stayed out of the arena are now having to play catch up. Either you find a way to adapt or you get killed repeatedly.
I'd even be willing to bet that most of the serious PvPers have stalkers...so what is being seen is good players vs bad players. Seems most of my kills against tanks and scrappers is nothing other then me out playing them.
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As a non-Stalker who's gonna butt-in, here's what I see (related to the above). From posts by fervent PvPers elsewhere around here, a good percentage of the Villains in the PvP zones are Stalkers. So, given that there's a group of ATs/builds/whatever that (from the quote above) "have no chance" against said Stalkers you're gonna continue to hear the lamentations of their women about it.
I wouldn't be so bitter myself if there was something my Rad/Rad defender could do besides zipping randomly around the sky like a crystal meth junkie to have a fair fight against a TP Stalker. As it is now, when I suddenly appear somewhere where I wasn't a moment before I just grab my ankles.
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Second if i cant 1 shot a defender or controller that's pathetic.
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Oh yeah, that'll make me want to take my defenders into PvP. Whoo hooo, what fun!!!
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do you think your overpowered?
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YOU ARE! NOT YOUR!
With my 18 Ninja Stalker, I can one-shot (no buildup or insp's)yellow minions with AS. It has 1 acc and 3 damage, all DO's.
With buildup, I can one shot yellow LT's and sometimes Orange LT's (depending on type).
For a Orange Boss, I buildup, then AS, then run, then after AS is recharged, go back, placate, AS again. This sometimes is enough or a couple of regular attacks finishes him (if I live thru his attacks).
Without AS, taking out 3 yellow minions becomes very dangerous.
I don't think we are overpowered. Other than AS, we are not very strong.
Since there are a few rundowns of what's a "reliable" PvE Kill ratio with stalkers, I figure I'll toss mine in the mix. I'll define "reliable" as what I'm fairly confidant I can take out without using any insps or temp powers from a full HP/END situation with all skills recharged with about a 90% sucess ratio, and without running away to re-hide.
Stalker=L28 Nin/Nin
Pool: Challenge/Intimidate
4 yellow minions
Yellow Lt./boss + 4 white minions
2 yellow Lts
Orange Lt +2 yellow minions
Orange boss + 1 yellow/2 white minions.
Red Lt. + 1 yellow/2 white minions.
Red boss + 1 white minion.
Purple boss in +2 levels range. (Depending on boss)
The exceptions are usually when you've got to deal with mobs that rez (Freakshow, some CoT, Vhazilok) which can get ya killed pretty fast if you don't keep a look out for the extra mob getting up off the ground.
As you can see it's not all that far off from what any other AT could reasonably attempt to solo under the same conditions, in the same level range. So I'd say it feels balanced. After spending some time with my controller and dominator alts, it became fairly obvious that surviving a prolonged firefight is very similar to what a controller/dominator has to do in the same situation. The tradeoff is that my stalker's mez output (intimidate, smoke flash, placate, Soaring dragon) is easily inferior, but his damage is easily superior, as a good build up+AS+Soaring Dragon can nearly, if not totally kill the biggest nastiest mob.
No way in hell are stalkers overpowered. In time, when people have learned to deal with stalkers and stalkers have learned to deal with those countermeasures, there will be better balance. But even right now I see them go down plenty in PvP. My Inv/SS tank is a stalker-killer. I can knockout blow through most any defences with the accuracy of fighting a +2 with SO's, which means I don't wiff much on my tank. Considering all the HO's out there most stalker sets are exactly as squishie as they feel once hide drops. They are no worse than a blaster with EM who can also two to three shot most squishies and disorient and drop toggles when they hit. No worse at all.