what is the point in having unyielding, which supposedly prevents toggle drops, and then having a stalker come up and each time he hits dropping all of my toggles....that means that unyielding is useless. i wouldnt mind if they dropped my health and killed me that way but dropping my toggles is somthing that should not happen. unyielding doesnt work at all vs stalkers
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what is the point in having unyielding, which supposedly prevents toggle drops, and then having a stalker come up and each time he hits dropping all of my toggles....that means that unyielding is useless. i wouldnt mind if they dropped my health and killed me that way but dropping my toggles is somthing that should not happen. unyielding doesnt work at all vs stalkers
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Oh, well, that's different.
The more I play in PvP, the more I come to the opinion that toggle dropping is a pointless artifact of the days when damage resistance really did make toggle armor users invincible.
Frankly with the reduced damage resistance, defense, and mez protection of I5+6, I would be perfectly happy if toggle dropping were removed altogether, even though it might make life a little difficult to lose that ability on my stalker.
As long as *everyone* loses it. If you want to drop someone's toggles, bring more controllers. 
@Mindshadow
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unyielding doesnt work at all vs stalkers
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But it does for every other AT? Not seeing the problem here.
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So, basically you are saying that many people that play Villains have opted to create Stalkers?...[snip]...It's simply the people who are paying to play have chosen to play certain AT's.
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What i'm saying is that if the majority of people who choose to PvP are deciding to use Stalkers it suggests that the other ATs are underpowered or that Stalkers are overpowered.
As far as I know, MMs are the biggest number of CoV ATs with a fairly even spread of other ATs. If PvP were to follow normal population patterns we would see more MMs.
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I have seen this tactic as well only it looks something more like TP+Rage+Insight+Luck+BU+AS and then SJ or TP or SS off (inspirations may vary or not be used at all). Nothing wrong with it.
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We'll have to disagree on this I suppose. There is greatly reduced risk in this strategy for the Stalker and little chance for the hero to respond. I don't see this as a good thing.
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Avoidance is not only an option it's a tactic. Just as some may not want to engage with a Stalker a Stalker is going to be picking and choosing his targets as well. Not seeing an issue here.
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The issue is that, since running away is the most effective way to avoid losing to a Stalker, we end up with no-one fighting in PvP zones. Heroes move constantly and run when a Stalker appears. A Stalker has to wait for the hero to get bored of moving. This is boring for both ATs and doesn't help other Villain ATs to contribute to PvP.
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Surely you and your team have at least a few skills to engage a Stalker that is not in hide?
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Sure, a Stalker able to land in a large prepared team and kill someone is doing a good job of Stalking. Doesn't make waiting for the Stalker to attack any more fun. Besides I've seen plenty of Stalkers happy to kill their target and die straight after. Would this be related to bounty?
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It has already been said that one shotting will be going away.
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Yep, I hope it does the trick but i think balancing is going to require more than this fix.
Finally, my comment about a player target bind suggests a variant on the Stalker attack. This is to engage a wounded hero in a big fight with the Arachnos in a hotspot. It's very hard to select the Stalker before they bounce off due to the other mobs. I agree this is a valid tactic but I would like to see a bigger opportunity for the hero attacked to be able to respond other than 'What was that? Oh i'm dead'. A bind might fix this without needing to nerf anyone.
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
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So if they take hide/stealth away any fool with tactics will see us. What's the point of being a stalker in the first place if the 80% of players can see through your hide and avoid the AS? Ahh...let me guess, that way you can easily kill them.
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Hmm so you are saying Stalkers are only good if they have one power from a power pool that has -zero- pve application?
That is a very weak argument.
To my way of thinking Stalkers have all the tools right at hand to do their job, they have AS, they have build up, they have placate, they have hide, they have critical hits from hide. What stalkers don't need is nearly perfect camoflage and it is that one aspect of Stalkers that has caused a great deal of the problems. Other players can't see you unless they have two layers of perception, thus they have no chance to defend themselves. Your average player with an average build should not be expected to have two layers of perception just to have a chance to avoid a Stalker with hide/stealth.
I've been around coh two years prior to the launch of coh beta, I have a pretty good instinct for this kinda thing, I have to say stealth/hide is the best candidate for modification, it just solves nearly all the issues if it goes away.
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What i'm saying is that if the majority of people who choose to PvP are deciding to use Stalkers it suggests that the other ATs are underpowered or that Stalkers are overpowered.
As far as I know, MMs are the biggest number of CoV ATs with a fairly even spread of other ATs. If PvP were to follow normal population patterns we would see more MMs.
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Most of the other CoV ATs are a lot squishier than people really like, at the SC levels. It'd be one thing if everyone were bored and sitting at the level cap, but when you just get steamrollered all the time, you start to wonder... why should I be here instead of in PvE?
More than simple power, it's survivability that makes stalkers popular in PvP. Villains don't like getting ganked any more than heroes do, after all.
Mostly in PvP I see bubble masterminds, a few insane brutes (I will often see the same brute later happily and repeatedly trying to solo Scrapyard), and an unending horde of stalkers. It's not because nobody else comes in. It's because nobody else _survives_ very long.
To note, I've seen some effective battles at the Siren's Call levels between large groups of heroes and large groups of villains, where there were enough overlapping buffs from the villains to make standing their ground workable. Anything less than that critical mass makes it into a running game. And nobody runs like a Stalker.
@Mindshadow
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I've been around coh two years prior to the launch of coh beta, I have a pretty good instinct for this kinda thing, I have to say stealth/hide is the best candidate for modification, it just solves nearly all the issues if it goes away.
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It would certainly be interesting if they removed stacking from both +Stealth and +Perception powers - instead of being additive, make them overlap, so only the best one applies. It seems like that would solve a number of issues.
@Mindshadow
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Most of the other CoV ATs are a lot squishier than people really like, at the SC levels. It'd be one thing if everyone were bored and sitting at the level cap, but when you just get steamrollered all the time, you start to wonder... why should I be here instead of in PvE?
More than simple power, it's survivability that makes stalkers popular in PvP. Villains don't like getting ganked any more than heroes do, after all.
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I agree with this, to a point. I think that what players are doing is seeing that Stalkers are much more survivable than other ATs and therefore using those in PvP.
Can you see the other Villain ATs being boosted though? I know I can't see that happening. By the same token, the devs aren't going to want to nerf heroes in any significant fashion for a while. That leaves making Stalkers current playstyle in PvP less attractive (not nerfing Stalkers as they need to be functional in PvE) and/or altering the PvP mechanisms in some way.
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
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What i'm saying is that if the majority of people who choose to PvP are deciding to use Stalkers it suggests that the other ATs are underpowered or that Stalkers are overpowered.
As far as I know, MMs are the biggest number of CoV ATs with a fairly even spread of other ATs. If PvP were to follow normal population patterns we would see more MMs.
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There are so many factors involved in this your logic on MM's being most popular in the game so should be most popular in PvP just doesn't make much sense.
1. Maybe those same MM creators enjoy playing a Stalker in PvP
2. Maybe those same MM creators do not enjoy PvP
3. Maybe those that enjoy Stalkers also enjoy PvP
4. Maybe those that enjoy PvP opted to try Stalkers and like that as well.
5. The game is still new, maybe many Heroes (myself included seeing as I have not logged into my hero since release of CoV) are off playing Villains and just haven't felt like being a Hero?
6. To many factors to say the end result is that AT's are underpowered while the Stalker AT is overpowered.
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We'll have to disagree on this I suppose. There is greatly reduced risk in this strategy for the Stalker and little chance for the hero to respond. I don't see this as a good thing.
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Maybe you will see this change, no idea. I can remember Fliers and SJ'ers in the Arena being whined about because the SS'ers could not catch them and they were able to do "drive by hits". My solution to that problem then was TP Foe which I picked up on "every single character" (Hero and now Villain) at level 8, 6 on my Stalker.
The difference in Stalkers is, their whole AT is based around "Stealthing". A good Stalker you will not see until you are face down. I dont see the difference in how they get to that point be it walking up to you or tp'ing in.
Dying isn't fun for everyone regardless of how quick the death is. Do you play a Stalker or is this all based off of "Stalker killed me, I dont like Stalkers"?
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The issue is that, since running away is the most effective way to avoid losing to a Stalker, we end up with no-one fighting in PvP zones. Heroes move constantly and run when a Stalker appears. A Stalker has to wait for the hero to get bored of moving. This is boring for both ATs and doesn't help other Villain ATs to contribute to PvP.
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Running away is the most effective trick for "any" AT in the game when death is looming. I do it on "all" of my characters, this is not a Stalker thing. Maybe the lack of PvP is a Server thing not an AT thing. Last I heard Heroes were ruling the PvP zone on many of the servers so, not sure why the server you play on is lacking in either side. I have also heard that many Stalkers feel like they are not contributing much on teams because of their damage being weak after their initial strike. Seems to go both ways here too. Again, something I am sure the Devs are looking into.
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Sure, a Stalker able to land in a large prepared team and kill someone is doing a good job of Stalking. Doesn't make waiting for the Stalker to attack any more fun. Besides I've seen plenty of Stalkers happy to kill their target and die straight after. Would this be related to bounty?
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Sure it's related to bounty and choice and option and just about any other reason you can come up with. There are plenty of people in this game that do not mind death and a run to the hospital. Not sure why it shocks you to see it when you can put a decent price tag on that death in the form of infamy and SO's. I would most certainly die for a bounty. Does that make it bad or wrong? No, it simply means I do not care if I die. Doesn't make the death any less than what it was other than it's clear to you as my bounty, that is all you were.
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Yep, I hope it does the trick but i think balancing is going to require more than this fix.
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I am quite sure the Devs are paying close attention to everything right now to see what we do with what they have given us.
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what is the point in having unyielding, which supposedly prevents toggle drops, and then having a stalker come up and each time he hits dropping all of my toggles....that means that unyielding is useless. i wouldnt mind if they dropped my health and killed me that way but dropping my toggles is somthing that should not happen. unyielding doesnt work at all vs stalkers
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Unyielding does not protect from Toggle Drops.
I don't understand where you get the idea from that I'm saying Stalkers are overpowered. I'm not saying that. I do think there are problems with the current playstyle.
As you can see from my sig, I have a Stalker. So this is not based on "Stalker killed me, I dont like Stalkers"
Even given all the factors you present, I would expect to see more MMs in PvP simply because they are such a large portion of the CoV population.
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Running away is the most effective trick for "any" AT in the game when death is looming
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It is currently the most effective way of responding to a Stalker AS. Stalker AS == Death is looming? That just seems a bit...binary in terms of PvP combat.
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it simply means I do not care if I die.
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That would suggest a possible problem to me. Death in PvP shouldn't be just a way of escaping further combat having got your reward. Then again, I wouldn't want to discourage people PvPing by implementing a penalty. So I don't know what could be done about this.
In conclusion, I don't want to see Stalkers nerfed. PvP and Stalker playstyle may need 'tweaking' though.
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
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It is currently the most effective way of responding to a Stalker AS. Stalker AS == Death is looming? That just seems a bit...binary in terms of PvP combat.
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I thought the most effective way to combat a Stalker was to interrupt that AS, if you saw it coming; if you did not see it coming then running will not stop the hit. (not sure of the range after AS is in annimation though but might be something the Dev's change)
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That would suggest a possible problem to me. Death in PvP shouldn't be just a way of escaping further combat having got your reward. Then again, I wouldn't want to discourage people PvPing by implementing a penalty. So I don't know what could be done about this.
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I wouldn't say it suggests a problem, it does however make it clear who does and doesn't mind a run to the hospital. I said I would die for the bounty but that didn't mean I wouldn't fight for the bounty. If my bounty is set on someone that is standing with a team of Heroes my option is to go for the bounty and risk death which will probably happen or not go for the bounty.
Not sure what the Devs could do to make "everyone" care about death as much as the next person.
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what is the point in having unyielding, which supposedly prevents toggle drops, and then having a stalker come up and each time he hits dropping all of my toggles....that means that unyielding is useless. i wouldnt mind if they dropped my health and killed me that way but dropping my toggles is somthing that should not happen. unyielding doesnt work at all vs stalkers
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/godmode is now alt+F4. 
argh! i keep double posting by accident.
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We'll have to disagree on this I suppose. There is greatly reduced risk in this strategy for the Stalker and little chance for the hero to respond. I don't see this as a good thing.
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Maybe you will see this change, no idea. I can remember Fliers and SJ'ers in the Arena being whined about because the SS'ers could not catch them and they were able to do "drive by hits". My solution to that problem then was TP Foe which I picked up on "every single character" (Hero and now Villain) at level 8, 6 on my Stalker.
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One should not have to get a power to survive in PVP 1 power should not swing the tides of war. 1 power should not be the deciding factor when trying to survive it should be a combination.
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The difference in Stalkers is, their whole AT is based around "Stealthing". A good Stalker you will not see until you are face down. I dont see the difference in how they get to that point be it walking up to you or tp'ing in.
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basically u just said as soon as a stalker looks at you, you should be dead.
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Dying isn't fun for everyone regardless of how quick the death is. Do you play a Stalker or is this all based off of "Stalker killed me, I dont like Stalkers"?
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one should not have to sit around and wait for a stalker to attack , which will 90% of the time result in your death. and like u said u dont care if u die neither do i but as long as i got to play before i died. as long as i know that i had a chance.
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The issue is that, since running away is the most effective way to avoid losing to a Stalker, we end up with no-one fighting in PvP zones. Heroes move constantly and run when a Stalker appears. A Stalker has to wait for the hero to get bored of moving. This is boring for both ATs and doesn't help other Villain ATs to contribute to PvP.
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Running away is the most effective trick for "any" AT in the game when death is looming. I do it on "all" of my characters, this is not a Stalker thing. Maybe the lack of PvP is a Server thing not an AT thing. Last I heard Heroes were ruling the PvP zone on many of the servers so, not sure why the server you play on is lacking in either side. I have also heard that many Stalkers feel like they are not contributing much on teams because of their damage being weak after their initial strike. Seems to go both ways here too. Again, something I am sure the Devs are looking into.
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further down u said u dont care if u die and here u say u run away. which is it? well in any case i have yet to c a brute or a tanker run from a fight that has gone sour especially if its a 1v1, but thats is my personal experience and im sure it happens.
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Sure, a Stalker able to land in a large prepared team and kill someone is doing a good job of Stalking. Doesn't make waiting for the Stalker to attack any more fun. Besides I've seen plenty of Stalkers happy to kill their target and die straight after. Would this be related to bounty?
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Sure it's related to bounty and choice and option and just about any other reason you can come up with. There are plenty of people in this game that do not mind death and a run to the hospital. Not sure why it shocks you to see it when you can put a decent price tag on that death in the form of infamy and SO's. I would most certainly die for a bounty. Does that make it bad or wrong? No, it simply means I do not care if I die. Doesn't make the death any less than what it was other than it's clear to you as my bounty, that is all you were.
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ok that is basically saying u exploit a feature of the game. death should not end in a reward. that is an exploit in the game. every game has a penalty for death not a reward system.
As a dark armor scrapper, personally I'd love to see Stalkers Nerfed. They ended up having the combat prowess that dark armor scrappers were supposed to have.
Maybe it's because I'm nerfed, but when I can't catch up to them (flying) and they see through my Cloak of Darkness, I often wonder had dark armor been released later if it would have become like stalkers. Anyway, given the dishonor of the stalkers I've encountered so far... (being attacked from behind while attacking a boss) I'm all in favor of Stalkers getting the axe.
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It would certainly be interesting if they removed stacking from both +Stealth and +Perception powers - instead of being additive, make them overlap, so only the best one applies. It seems like that would solve a number of issues.
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Exactly, if it were not for Stealth/Hide the whole perception war would be basically neutralized except for Superior invis(I think) and you don't see Controllers one shotting anyone
I say peel back this combo on test and see what happens.
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Exactly, if it were not for Stealth/Hide the whole perception war would be basically neutralized except for Superior invis(I think) and you don't see Controllers one shotting anyone
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Well, not precisely. What happens is it's an ever-escalating process, where even people who have +Perception in their normal power sets have to soak the Leadership pool *and* possibly buy goggles just to keep up. This happens on both the hero _and_ villain sides, except the villains don't really get the option of goggles.
The side effect I'm more concerned about is that this basically makes power pool stealth almost a waste for everyone. Since so many people are rigged to spot stalkers with stacked stealth, a hapless controller with power pool stealth might as well be naked and dancing on a hilltop for all the concealment value they get for their endurance.
Causing both types of powers - +Stealth and +Perception - to overlap instead of stack, and perhaps rebalancing their base values a little, means everyone gets some bonus from their purchase.
Stacking +Stealth and +Perception is the exact same problem that happened with +Resistance and Tough in the pre-I5 days, where it's balanced when you're not stacking things, but, say, a firetank gets it and suddenly it's "Ooh, resistance cap". It's difficult to balance the base values of powers when people are going to stack them - how do you make them not uber while still making them worthwhile for people to have just one? If you nerf the base, then people _have_ to stack... So take out the ability to stack them in PvP, period.
I admit there are some flaws to the idea, but hey, it's an internet forum. Random brain flatulence is the order of the day.
@Mindshadow
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It's already pretty inaccurate... and generally when I take someone out using TP Foe, I use Build Up first to ensure the hit; Buildup's duration is long enough that it's up through the whole BU+TP+Placate+AS+Followup combo. The only thing nerfing TP Foe accuracy will do is hurt non-Stalker/Blasters.
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I said "for PvP"... Don't change the PvE accuracy, change it for PvP. For example, make it's accuracy unbuffable, unenhanceable, 33% or so.
Just an idea
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Well, not precisely. What happens is it's an ever-escalating process, where even people who have +Perception in their normal power sets have to soak the Leadership pool *and* possibly buy goggles just to keep up. This happens on both the hero _and_ villain sides, except the villains don't really get the option of goggles.
The side effect I'm more concerned about is that this basically makes power pool stealth almost a waste for everyone. Since so many people are rigged to spot stalkers with stacked stealth, a hapless controller with power pool stealth might as well be naked and dancing on a hilltop for all the concealment value they get for their endurance.
Causing both types of powers - +Stealth and +Perception - to overlap instead of stack, and perhaps rebalancing their base values a little, means everyone gets some bonus from their purchase.
Stacking +Stealth and +Perception is the exact same problem that happened with +Resistance and Tough in the pre-I5 days, where it's balanced when you're not stacking things, but, say, a firetank gets it and suddenly it's "Ooh, resistance cap". It's difficult to balance the base values of powers when people are going to stack them - how do you make them not uber while still making them worthwhile for people to have just one? If you nerf the base, then people _have_ to stack... So take out the ability to stack them in PvP, period.
I admit there are some flaws to the idea, but hey, it's an internet forum. Random brain flatulence is the order of the day.
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What is occuring in the PVP zones is something akin to what has happened from a military standpoint in the Radar vs Aircraft scenario. What I mean is that in the struggle of the defender vs the raider there is a constant game of one upsmanship. The defender wants to detect the attacker at maximum range to bring their guns/missles/interceptors to bear, the attacker wants to avoid detection to deliver his munitions to the target. This escalation goes on forever. What is different in COH/V is that the developers can sit down and determine just how far they want this war to go.
In my opinion the Stalker tech of Hide/Stealth cracks the current balance of defender vs attacker. All stalkers have hide, its a defining ability, so right off the start every Stalker has an advantage over every player without perception powers and that is a great many players. Now add that Stalkers have ECM in the form of Placate, a laser guided bunker buster in the form of Build-up+AS+Crit from hide AND can add radar absorbant paint in the form of Stealth.
wow that analogy scares me.
Yah, peel off the paint (Stealth) and lets see what Stalkers can do with the rest of their innate tools.
Its a no brainer.
Do I think my Stalker is overpowered? Well, let me put it this way, so far, after playing a Stalker, a Brute and a Corruptor, the Stalker leveled the slowest. The other two both felt like I was playing on easy mode after that.
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what is the point in having unyielding, which supposedly prevents toggle drops, and then having a stalker come up and each time he hits dropping all of my toggles....that means that unyielding is useless. i wouldnt mind if they dropped my health and killed me that way but dropping my toggles is somthing that should not happen. unyielding doesnt work at all vs stalkers
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Unyielding does not protect from Toggle Drops.
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I think he just said that wrong (or didn't know quite what he was saying ). One of the main reasons to take UY (and the other mez-protection powers) is to avoid enemies dropping your toggles in PvE. My Inv tank wouldn't really be bothered about being mezzed once in a while, if it didn't shut off his toggles. Getting the mez-protection toggles is like: "Yes! Finally my toggles will stay up!".
The whole toggle-dropping mechaninc negates this and reduces us to pre-mez-protection levels of power. If you want to kill me, kill me by overcoming my powers. Not by randomly shutting them off.
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what is the point in having unyielding, which supposedly prevents toggle drops, and then having a stalker come up and each time he hits dropping all of my toggles....that means that unyielding is useless. i wouldnt mind if they dropped my health and killed me that way but dropping my toggles is somthing that should not happen. unyielding doesnt work at all vs stalkers
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Unyielding does not protect from Toggle Drops.
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I think he just said that wrong (or didn't know quite what he was saying :P). One of the main reasons to take UY (and the other mez-protection powers) is to avoid enemies dropping your toggles in PvE. My Inv tank wouldn't really be bothered about being mezzed once in a while, if it didn't sut off his toggles. Getting the mez-protection toggles is like "Yes! Finally my toggles will stay up!".
The whole toggle-dropping mechaninc negates this and reduces us to pre-mez-protection levels of power. If you want to kill me, kill my by overcoming my powers. Not by randomly shutting them off.
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Bam! Exactly! It's been said many times before, in different ways and forums, but it's because it's true. With i5, and ESPECIALLY ED, Toggle-dropping is an outdated and harmful mechanic for Tanks, Scrappers, Brutes and, to a degree, Stalkers.
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Yah, peel off the paint (Stealth) and lets see what Stalkers can do with the rest of their innate tools.
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I'm sure a lot of stalkers would be happy to avoid the Concealment pool (which gives basically no PvE benefit to them after all) if it meant they weren't spotted halfway across the planet by a nutter with triply-stacked +Perception.
My point really isn't about Hide+Stealth. Hide+Stealth is just the most obvious example of the issue of stealth stacking (Illusionists can also do some mind-blowing things with GI+SI). It highlights the issue, in the same way that assassinate drew an underline under the whole "Hey, 1-shotting sucks" issue. The issue existed before Stalkers, and it would exist were Stalkers to abruptly vanish in a puff of coding, so really, focusing on "don't let Hide+Stealth stack" instead of "don't let ANY +Stealth/+Per powers stack" is letting the forum's tendency to stalkerlock get in the way of a more general solution to a problem that goes beyond Stalkers.
@Mindshadow
In PVE, stalkers are late bloomers, like controllers and dominators. Because of the sheer number of powers you need to get and slot, you don't find an effective balance of offense/defense until the mid-20s. Which is also about when SOs become more available and make a difference.
However, stalkers are playable until the mid-20s with relatively little difficulty (I haven't died many times at all, and usually when I've done something to deserve it). After the mid-20s, once you have a selection of secondary attacks and slots in your defenses, they become much more effective. Three +1 minions go from a challenge to a one-shot, two/three shot, one shot situation, rinse, repeat.
That said, multi-wave ambush and escort 'pet' missions can be a huge issue (not escort captive missions, those are simply enough). As a stalker, I've never hated any mission more than the 'free three prisoners from the Zig' mission. My other ATs blew through it. Stalker... Hate. Hate. Hate. (you get the picture, but this goes on for a while). On the other hand, I don't see many solutions to it that don't completely trivialize this content for stalkers, which would be the wrong approach in itself, so I can live with the two or three missions every five levels that work this way.
However, in PVP, stalkers don't work. AS can be fixed easily enough with a quick and dirty change to stop one-shots. However, the entire perception system is flawed. Critically flawed. And needs to be redesigned.
As it stands, Hide becomes much, much less useful in PVP for the purpose it was intended. Instead, Stalkers are required to pick up hide+stealth, and hopefully have someone with grant invis around. In order to try and counter that, heroes are having to use specific PVP builds that are designed to counter stalkers with stacking perception.
In the end, if the heroes have enough +perception, the stalker becomes a bottom-feeder trying to catch them when they're all distracted, or just gets killed when they get too close. If the stalker has enough +stealth, they can walk up to the heroes and take apart a target (and potentially escape, depending on travel power, target, etc.) In order to counter the failure of the stealth system, we're seeing tele-stalkers now, that use teleport foe, placate, and AS to one-shot low hit point, non-CC resist targets.
Borrow from DAOC and WOW. Something along the lines of (and this is suggestion only): Reduce the impact of +perception, allowing people with it to see stalkers at a reduced distance from current, but make it scaling, so that if you have one level of +perception, you can see stalkers at 15ft. regardless of their stealth, two levels would be 45ft. etc. Change it so that even without +perception, you can see a stalker when they're in melee range. To try balance this out, remove Tab or hotkey targeting of stalkers under stealth. Require manual targeting.
Obviously not a perfect suggestion, but the current situation is broken, for both sides.