One shotting has got to end
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2005-12-07 01:38 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
[ QUOTE ]
The day they code PvP so as to protect you from multiple attacks (be it trip mines, three different people sniping you, two different people AS'ing you) is the day that PvP becomes a massive joke. 'Wait I'm immune to walking blithely into another team's ambush? AWESOME!'
[/ QUOTE ]
The day that being reduced to 1HP instead of instant death is the same as being immune to walking into an ambush is the day that CoX becomes a massive joke too.
Seriously; suggesting that any change to the system means that PvP is instantly worthless is silly.
I don't like the idea of reducing players to 1HP rather than death. It doesn't seem to fix the problem but pretending that some players don't experience a problem and dismissing their views is pointless.
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
[ QUOTE ]
This is ALSO lacking logic. This is ALSO lacking rationality.
[/ QUOTE ]
That is ALSO misunderstanding or misrepresenting what has been said previously.
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
At this point I'll be happy if they just reduce the damage that AS does.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the idea of reducing players to 1HP rather than death. It doesn't seem to fix the problem but pretending that some players don't experience a problem and dismissing their views is pointless.
[/ QUOTE ]
But a "problem" that isn't really a problem SHOULD be dismissed. This is the same argument we were all having with Kheldians. "But I don't WANT to take Dwarf form for mez resistance!" "I want to be a human only Khel and blast like I was in Nova form and tank like I was in Dwarf form without having to take the forms!"
Tough noogies. Suffer. Khel human form blasts are weak because you could have CHOSEN to take Nova form. Human form doesn't get mez resistance BECAUSE you have Dwarf form to use. (Yes, Light form gives some mez, but it's not perma and locks you into human powers.)
It's the same irrationality with this argument. "I don't WANT to take tactics or change my build, or move around, or run auras, or pop yellows, or get IR goggles to see through hide/stealth!"
Tough. Suffer. The tools exist to get around everything in this game. If you CHOOSE not to use the tools at your disposal, that is YOUR fault, and NOT the fault of the game.
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
At this point I'll be happy if they just reduce the damage that AS does.
[/ QUOTE ]
That cuts into PvE, though, and that simply isn't an option.
It's not the same argument. That argument is about Kheldians, this is about being unable to engage in PvP.
I've gone over the tools you've mentioned as being available and the reasons they are insufficent earlier in this thread. I'd suggest you read those parts again.
A very simple summary would be: The game at the moment will end up with only hardcore PvPers playing in the zones. This is not desirable as it is only fun for a very small group of people.
Incidentally, I'd have thought PvPers would also want more people to play so that they have new opponents and can engage in larger battles.
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
[ QUOTE ]
A very simple summary would be: The game at the moment will end up with only hardcore PvPers playing in the zones. This is not desirable as it is only fun for a very small group of people.
[/ QUOTE ]
So what would you prefer? Everyone's damage be cust by 75% in PvP so that all battles last 15 minutes and more?
Stalkers in PvP lose the ability to AS completely but all other damage they do is doubled?
Everytime someone stated that the powers available to stop a Stalker from being able to AS were not up to that job, someone else posted that they were mistaken.
Camping in the opposing force's hospital is griefing and an exploit.
Stalker AS can be disrupted, and therefore, is not.
Since it is NOT an exploit, there is nothing that needs fixing.
This from a guy that will never play a stalker, and the best perception any of my characters has is from Focused Senses on Bill.
[ QUOTE ]
It's not the same argument. That argument is about Kheldians, this is about being unable to engage in PvP.
[/ QUOTE ]
Unable is NOT the same thing as unwilling. If you are unwilling to change your build for PvP, then you are unwilling to engage in PvP against Stalkers.
That said, if someone would like to post a build that has NO chance against a Stalker, I will be happy to tell you how to change it so that you can, or tell you which team mates can cover the holes that you have.
If you are unwilling to change your tactics, through teaming or build changes, you have no one to blame but yourself.
(Can you tell I'm stuck at work and bored?)
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At this point I'll be happy if they just reduce the damage that AS does.
[/ QUOTE ]
That cuts into PvE, though, and that simply isn't an option.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah - irony ;-)
My scrapper doesn't need an AoE. She IS an AoE.
[ QUOTE ]
So what would you prefer?
[/ QUOTE ]
I've said what i'd prefer earlier in this thread, and I quite like Pilcrow's suggestion. As I said before, I don't want nerfs to Stalkers, particularly that remove their primary function.
I don't like that you seem to be taking any suggestion that there is a problem as a call for extreme nerfs. I don't think it helps the discussion.
Pinnacle - Atlantean L33 Eng/Eng Blaster, Aeonian L25 Rad/Dar Defender, Darksaw L38 Kat/Da Scrapper, Purple Dynamite L25 Inv/Eng Tanker
Freedom - Volcanic Force L50 Fire/FF Controller, Violent Force L30 Fire/Psi Dominator, Tabubua L24 Claw/Regen Stalker
Victory - Calistus L26 SS/EA Brute
[ QUOTE ]
I don't like that you seem to be taking any suggestion that there is a problem as a call for extreme nerfs. I don't think it helps the discussion.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, I was just harping on the concept of "I shouldn't have to change my build for PvP." It bugs me. I also don't think there's an actual problem to be resolved here.
But to those that are purely putting up suggestions for changes, I salute you. Just beware that often times, whenthe devs make changes, the consequences are OFTEN worse than the perceived "problem."
Take movement suppression as a prime example.
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
3) It requires not one +Perception power. Not two +Perception powers. It requies three +Perception powers to detect Stealth + Hide. This requires that a hero be lucky enough to have access to Glacial Shield (Ice/* Tankers), Minerals (Stone/* Tankers), Focused Senses (*/Super Reflexes Scrappers), Cloak of Shadows (*/Dark Armor Scrappers), Targetting Drone (*/Devices Blasters), or Shadow Cloak (Warshades); AND Tactics; AND buy IR Goggles. If you do not have access to one of the above powers, you're just SOL; as has been confirmed repeatedly, if you're not a Defender, Tactics and IR Goggles will not be enough to see a Stalker who's using Stealth + Hide at the same time.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not completely true. Glacial Armor can see through Hide+Stealth (within an approximate 30 yard radius) entirely on it's own.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't like that you seem to be taking any suggestion that there is a problem as a call for extreme nerfs.
[/ QUOTE ]
The problem being Cryptic has a reputation for turning any suggestion into an extreme nerf...
All right, so I'm new to the whole PVP thing, but seems to me that since stalkers have a great ambush power there should be a hero hunting them. Trying to prevent the "ganking". This would be the stalker AT's nemesis, like in the comics. Batman would figure out Jokers plans ASAP, Superman would investigate Lex's plans ASAP, etc. So in CoH whoever is the Stalker AT's nemesis would have an inherent ability to see that AT without special devices or powers, because it's one of the major reasons they exist as heroes (to counter that type of supervillian).
I don't see any problems with this, while the Stalkers are out there stalking and still ganking players. They have to watch their backs and be prepared for a real fight if there nemesis shows up. It'll give PVPers a good guy AT to play solo that will surely lead to epic battles or to just help out their team as a spotter. The hero will not have an ambush power, just normal powers and the inherent power to see a fully cloaked Stalker.
Summary: Give the Stalkers nemesis AT in CoH the inherent ability to see the Stalker (no extra powers or devices required).
[ QUOTE ]
<lol> So anyone who doesn't enter a PvP zone with stacked +Perception should just stay out? You sure you want that to be the mantra for leaving things as status quo?
[/ QUOTE ]
<lol> Yep. It's more than apparent if a player goes into a PvP zone not properly prepared or built and think they will own everything and everyone, they will suffer the consequences. That's player choice, not the game design.
[ QUOTE ]
Anything you can one-shot without inspirations.
[/ QUOTE ]
My Ice/EM blaster can use AIM + Buildup + Power Boost + Boost Range and 1 shot a Controller or Defender from so far away they had no chance to escape or respond. Add in the boosts I can get through Accolade powers, and I can nearly 1 shot a scrapper or tank. No inspirations or outside buffs required. I guess Blasters should get nerfed too.
[ QUOTE ]
Why don't give those AT's a "one-shot Stalker's" power? Sound like fun for you?
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure. My Empathy Defender would love to 1 shot a tanker using brawl. Do I want it and have it as part of the game? Heck no. It is more fun for me to try and evade other players and assist my teammates than it would be running around and 1 shotting everything in sight. That is my opinion. Your idea of fun is simply that - your idea.
[ QUOTE ]
And yet you think it's fun to force only CoH players to team in PvP?
[/ QUOTE ]
Warburg (and I believe the upcoming level 50 PvP zone) are Free For All on either side. So how exactly are ONLY CoH players forced to team in PvP?
[ QUOTE ]
So one AT should be allowed to preclude 4 of the 5 AT's from playing PvP solo?
[/ QUOTE ]
A well built Controller can defeat a scrapper, tanker, blaster and defender all at once. I've seen it happen many times and I'll be more than happy to post screen caps of this from Warburg. So let's nerf Controllers while we are at it too.
[ QUOTE ]
What AT in CoH forces 4 out of 5 AT's to team in CoV? It sure as hell ain't blasters.
[/ QUOTE ]
Last night there was a Fire/Fire Controller in Warburg who defeated a team of two stalkers, an Ice/Fire Corruptor, an EM/Dark Brute and a Robot/Traps Mastermind - solo. Does that answer your question? This was a well built, well played toon.
[ QUOTE ]
Who cares? I don't care if it's easy or not...the point is that it isn't fun on the Hero side. That's what matters.
[/ QUOTE ]
In your opinion. I highly doubt the developers of the game will make a change that could adversely affect revenues simply because you alone do not think it is fun. There are many people posting from the Hero side of things (such as myself... I don't even own CoV) who disagree with you. Again, your idea of fun is entirely different from the next person.
[ QUOTE ]
If the devs feel that Stalkers should have that effect on CoH PvP...then they run the risk that PvP will be underutilized.
[/ QUOTE ]
If it is underutilized by inexperienced players who do nothing but whine when they get killed then that is all the more reason to leave it the way it is.
[ QUOTE ]
Do you think Stalkers should be the only AT to get to solo in PvP? What gives Stalkers that right?
[/ QUOTE ]
Read my above comments on Controllers in PvP (and yes, I have several). They can solo quite easily. What gives them that right? My Illusion/Storm Controller can easily defeat a Stone tank. I have seen a well built Spines/DA scrapper solo and kill teams of 3 or more stalkers too. Obviously he was able to solo in PvP.
[ QUOTE ]
Are you so blind as to not see the animosity this situation has created? Is anyone complaining about Brutes, Dominators, Corruptors, Masterminds to the same degree? Do you really think the devs are smart just to turn a blind-eye and ignore all the people that are unhappy about PvP based soley on Stalkers?
[/ QUOTE ]
Only to people like yourself. The devs turned a blind eye toward all the people unhappy about Enhancement Diversity. I would not hold my breath hoping for the "solution" you are looking for. Just as an example, I had a Ninja/Dark MM kill me as my EMP/Energy defender the other night in Warburg. His ninjas threw down so many caltrops, I could have died simply from them and not any of his other attacks. Combine this with the holds of the Oni, Disorients from the Genin and Placate/Golden Dragonfly attacks from the Jounin and I was dead meat. Whose fault was this? Mine. I got caught away from the defense of my teammates. Do you see me complaining about it? Hell no. My hats off to the MM for playing his toon well.
[ QUOTE ]
First off the only thing forcing you to team in PVP or PVE is YOU!! The only person who can determine the FUN of PVP is the person behind the keyboard, i.e. YOU. Stalkers are not problem, people who take there Uber build into a PVP zone thinking they are just gonna rock the house get a fanatastic wake up call with being taken out by a Stalker. Booo hooo- it can't be ME or my UBER BUILD that is the problem....IT MUST BE THE STALKERS!!! Please!! It is hyperbole crap like this that is ridiculous and gets the nerfs started. Stop blaming the Stalker or the AT, and look in the mirror. The blame is on you.
[/ QUOTE ]
/quoted for Truth
Nerf Miss_Freeze's blaster 
Now that I've read most of this, all i see is alot of whinning.
There is not a true one shotting power in this game. as in AS can't do that great amount of damage without using build up and Hide.
AS has 2 to hit checks. if you move after they start the attack it will miss. the same as blaster sniper attacks
all AT's have powers available to them that increase smashing/leathal damage rez, hold rez, immob rez, perception, deffence. these may not be as much as some primary or secondary powers but they are available.
I've been in all of the PvP zones with both my Lvl 50 Blaster, and my Lvl 40 brute. I have yet to be AS'd. The last stalker to try to AS my brute found out that Energy transfer the Total focus on a Brute really really hurts when he's allready been wipping the floor with 4-7 heroes for the last 2 minutes.
Someone had mentioned in this thread somewhere about using auto hit aoe powers. Auto hit Powers never do dmg so the will not un-hide a stalker.
and finnaly once a stalker is unhidden they have absolutly no stealthing abillity for a while(haven't timed it yet so i don't know exact time)and with out a succesful placate can be seen normaly with out an +perception power
V-Tronix - Angry Angels
V-Tron Elec/EM - V-Tron X EM/EA
To Build a Better Hero #53098 [Newly edited and looking for Feedback] - Renegade Robots: V-Tron's Task Force # - A Summer Song and A Winters Tail #104106
Just have them remove stalkers from the game altogether, since assassinations are the ONLY thing stalkers can do.
Just turn them all into scrappers and be done with it.
Hey _Castle_, Hide + Build Up + Assassin Strike + Rage + Rage does not = 1 shot, that's effectively using 5 powers. Many AT's can defeat an opponent with 5 powers.
We will just pretend the stalker doesn't run 3 or more other toggles for defense or to get away when he fails to hit or kill the target and they turn on him.
[ QUOTE ]
My Ice/EM blaster can use AIM + Buildup + Power Boost + Boost Range and 1 shot a Controller or Defender from so far away they had no chance to escape or respond. Add in the boosts I can get through Accolade powers, and I can nearly 1 shot a scrapper or tank. No inspirations or outside buffs required. I guess Blasters should get nerfed too.
[/ QUOTE ]
You gotta love these comparisions. 
Your talking about hitting FOUR buffs to pull off that one-shotting. HELLO! Four powers that have long recharge times. And you wanna know the TITANIC difference? YOU CANNOT STACK YOUR STEALTH POWERS TO MAKE YOU ABSOLUTELY INVISIBLE! Do you understand the difference? Stalker need just one buff to one shot, BU. Even if you got stealth/SS on most ppl's tactic will see you coming and have a chance to react. So do me a favor, all of you blaster who keep comparing their attacks to stalkers......stop now, please.
Couple things:
One, everyone needs to calm down and stop the personal attacks. We're all here trying to make this a better game, so resulting to name calling or bullying is actually contrary to our goal.
Two, I like to think we are special here at Cryptic.
Three, everyone needs to remember the absolute cap on Stealth is lower than the absolute cap on Perception if the players are even level. This means that a TEAM using non-Temp powers but with a good overlap of other powers will be able to see a Stalker before that Stalker gets into Melee Range. Additionally, while Tactics is a Toggle power which can be left on indefinitely for a +Perception boost, Grant Invisibility is a click buff which has a finite duration. So, a group of Stalkers + Support needs to stop and rebuff every few minutes to remain at the Stealth Cap, while a group using overlapped Tactics can remain on the move constantly.
I'm also aware that TP Foe is a big issue in PvP. In our internal testing, my Stone/Stone Brute used it to great affect on opposing targets.
[ QUOTE ]
AS can consistantly one shot kill Defenders and Controllers, among others. Its fairly easy to observe in an evening in Siren's Call.
[/ QUOTE ]
Incorrect, I have EM (the strongest power sset for Stalkers) and I can only one shot kill defenders and controllers, WITH build up, anything else requires red inspirations, not to mention I have my AS fully slotted with 4 damage SO's and two ACC SO's. Anything else is reported to have roughly 200-600 HP left, if not more depending on their build and AT, through testing. If you're anything other than a defender or control and die in one hit, it's your fault for building your AT to be weak to such a tactical strike.
[ QUOTE ]
So, you have to pursue someone to set up your attack? So what? Every other AT has to do the same thing. Those ATs dont get to do it in near total safety from anyone without a build spefically built to counter their AT either. Try playing other ATs in PvP. You'll have to "stalk" and pursue foes just as much, if not more than a Stalker does. Try it without stealth too, and you may realize that pursuing a foe is hardly unique to Stalkers. Its a basic part of PvP that every AT and build has to engage in. All ATs have to pursue someone and set up an attack. Some have to close to melee range to do it, some dont. Even some melee builds dont have to close to melee range to begin combat.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, the only difference is that these AT's have far more defense than a stalker.. Stalkers are one of the squishest. As for the squishy AT's on the hero side, they also have high damage ranged attacks or controlling powers.. If you're an AT that is notorious for being one-shotted, mainly controllers and defenders, pick up an ability that negates melee attacks like that hurricane stormy thing I see you guys with. If you're gonna PvP and whine about being killed in one hit, then go to the effort to pick up the powers needed and build your AT for PvP, if you refuse to do that, stay out of the PvP zones or keep on the move.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Trick Question. The answer doesn't matter. It has the same psychological effect that a one-shot does.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bingo. This was exactly my point.
PvP is a very fine balance and there are a lot of ways to creatively combine powers for extreme effect. Assassin Attacks, while powerful, are only the most visable (irony?) example. There are others which are worse and whatever solution we come up with for 'The one shot problem' has to address as many variations as we can identify.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, to go back to a variation proposed on the beta boards:
There was a suggestion to put some more meaning behind the health bar's color coding: you couldn't be bumped down more than two color code per attack... so if you were at full green, the farthest you could fall would be to orange, 1hp* above red. At yellow, you could fall 1hp, and at orange or red, you're in jeopardy of death. (note, you could just as easily make this "fall 1 color" at a time, but that might be too much of a blow for stalkers in PvP)
Now, this wouldn't work for the caltrops/mines issue... unless... instead of measuring this per attack, we look at per (timeunit). In other words, your health bar could only fall at a maxrate of 2 colors per second or 3 seconds, whatever. That way, instadeath for players is avoidable, stacked attacks don't work well, and a player always has some (albiet momentary) repsonse period to try to get out of things.
*(note, the 1hp might be too tough got quick DOT attacks, maybe 1% above death, or something similar)
[ QUOTE ]
I agree, the only difference is that these AT's have far more defense than a stalker.. Stalkers are one of the squishest. As for the squishy AT's on the hero side, they also have high damage ranged attacks or controlling powers.. If you're an AT that is notorious for being one-shotted, mainly controllers and defenders, pick up an ability that negates melee attacks like that hurricane stormy thing I see you guys with. If you're gonna PvP and whine about being killed in one hit, then go to the effort to pick up the powers needed and build your AT for PvP, if you refuse to do that, stay out of the PvP zones or keep on the move.
[/ QUOTE ]
Stop saying Stalkers are squishy. Stalkers have low hit point, but they are not squishy. Squishy would be no defense buff powers, including dmg resistance powers, and no mez protection. Not only do stalkers have both, but alot of them have self heals and debuffs. And all of them have placate. That doesnt seem squishy to me.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm also aware that TP Foe is a big issue in PvP. In our internal testing, my Stone/Stone Brute used it to great affect on opposing targets.
[/ QUOTE ]
Shhhhh castle. you are makin it so my stone/stone brute's tactics are gettin out there bad dev, no cookie
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But its pretty obvious someone like yourself who has to resort to personal insults, you had no arguement of the bat. And btw, you think my toons were plvled? Think again you inbred goat-[censored], its called playing the game for more than 15 months. But you knew that right?
[/ QUOTE ]
From 0 to irony in three sentences.
BTW: Regardless of whether he has an argument or not, you've nicely avoided commenting on the fact that players should be expected to plan for and plan to over come the obstacles of PvP rather than just hitting it all with a great equalizer bat and rendering it complete.
This point was raised by myself, and others, and you've handily avoided it by diving head-first into a flame fest.
Seems like you prefer your one shot kills too.
[/ QUOTE ]
Plan for a plan? Can you be alittle more specific? If your referring to a particular group, like an sg having a "plan" for stalkers thats fine. Ive already gave all the folks in my sg recommondations on powers to prevent getting ganked. But thats not what the whole of my arguement is. If you read some of my more recent posts you may get the jist of it.