[ QUOTE ]
Wet Ice - six slotted with Defense SO's - provides about 3% defense.
Energy Absorption similarly slotted provides 3% per target (so a maximum of 42%).
*caveat - I'm doing this stuff from memory, so I'll doublecheck it and repost later if I'm wrong.*
[/ QUOTE ]
Statesman: Why would anyone slot WI for Defense? Seriously I rarely put def buff into Combat Jumping on LIve (5%).
Between this and the EA working as intended, why would I bother playing an Ice tank? Sure I got my main to 50, and up until I5 was put on test I was actually thinking of making more. But now? No way. This saddens me as Tankers are my favorite AT.
I hate to say this, but as I5 stands I change my stance on why would I play an Ice Tank, to why would I play this game?
I agree that tanks needed adjusting as did controllers (the folks I team with prove this fairly often). It just seems so drastic.
I hope other changes are made so I will keep playing, but I'm having some serious doubts, the first time I've ever seriously contemplated quitting because of what was going on in the game (verus real life stuff).
Maybe you should explore something along the lines of the What If? comics. Namely, What If Statesman was an Ice Tank? You'll likely find that you're not nearly as effective compared to Invul, especially against AV's.
It frightens me that you (all the devs possibly) think that Defense is so much better then Resistance (taken from your post about FF vs Sonic shields). Possibly in a pure sense you're correct, but as stated by Ice Tanks before it's EASY to get def buffed in this game (Lucks etc) so that a Res set is better off (since Def+Res is always better then either alone).
Sure sonic helps now there's a set that can give us Res, but still that's not really enough.
Ice is a Def set fine, but then NO OTHER build from any other AT should be able to match our Def vs any attack. Just like Ice will never match anyone's Resistance. And no the Ice Primary does not offer enough 'control' to really be considered that controllerish to compensate (as it is Stone's more effective since they have 1 power that does what 2 Ice powers do).
The cynical side of me wants to say that the Devs want to get rid of the Ice Primary, and to do so they want to drive everyone away from it, get to a certain low enough point and then just announce "We're getting rid of this power set because no one plays it."
Yeah so I'm being negative. But there's precious little to be positive about, at least from what I'm seeing. I hope I'm wrong. At least look/analyze Circeus/Havok's spreadsheets.
I just want some hope that Ice Tanks will be made on par with other tanks. I'm tired of not seeing an Ice tank when I log on, I'm tired of my level 50 Ice/stone tank being praised for getting to 50, or greated with shock when other people see him.
A ratio of like 30/30/20/20 Invul/fire/stone/ice. Somehow I think it's more like 45/45/5/5 or some such.
Eh I need to stop. Please make us comparable to Invul, stop making us the laughingstock of the tank world. Give EVERYONE a reason to want to play an Ice Tank in I5 and beyond. Heck give everyone a reason to play ANY tank in I5 and beyond.
on Virtue:
Darkennedy dark/sonic Def
Lena Slayer NightWidow
Vengeful Woman Energy/Rad Corruptor
Hella Effing Cool cold/sonic def
Here's the real numbers (that's what I get for doing stuff from memory).
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with +++ SO's.
17.71% Max Defence from Energy Absorbtion (not what I had earlier).
Adron's comments brings me to a solution I came up with to make DEf equal to RES.
The problem lies in that DEF is *subtracted* from accuracy, while RES is *multipled* against damage.
ie: Accuracy = Base - DEF, while Damage = Base * (1-RES)
I propose we change the calculation for how DEF is applied, making it:
Accuracy = Base * (1-DEF).
This would, of course, require a massive inflation of all DEF numbers - probably to values somewhat above their Issue 4 values. You'd probably want the same for base accuracy. But think about it:
Let's say I have 75% DEF and I4 Acc:
+0
Minion: 12.5% Acc
Lt: 15.6% Acc
Boss: 18.75% Acc
Cap the Tanker powers to reach that (or maybe even 80%). Cap the Scrapper powers to be 5-10% below that. Then allow a Force Fielder to allow you to reach an effective cap of 90%.
*NOW* DEF is equivalent, at all levels, to RES.
I'm sure there's a lot of holes in that, but it can't be any worse than what we have now.
Edit:
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the real numbers (that's what I get for doing stuff from memory).
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with ++ SO's.
17.71% Max Defence from Energy Absorbtion (not what I had earlier).
[/ QUOTE ]
And this doesn't strike you as SCREWED UP?!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
JESUS!!!!
.5 % defense?? I thought it was a bug.. dear god... why do they bother to say that power offers defense?
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually if the power can be slotted up to a total of +3% defense then it would be probably be better to either remove the ability to slot the power for +def and set it at 3% or just remove the +def component completely.
3% +def is virtually nothing, you need to take like what 20 attacks for that to make even a little difference. Players who DO NOT read the forums will end up wasting slots in that power thinking they will see some meaningful return on their investment. Which will not be the case.
Thats is definatly not cool as it punishes players who do not come to the forums or number crunch the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. I'm very supportive of many of the design decisions, but this one I have to say is not very good. The defense is just too small, even fully-slotted, to make a difference. But someone who doesn't come to the forum may be dropping slots into like crazy and wondering why he doesn't see a difference.
Either:
1) Make it a base 3%, slottable.
2) Take away all defense from it so as not to confuse anyone. or
3) Make it 5% unslottable (pseudo-noticeable, and you can't mess it up by slotting it for defense).
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the real numbers (that's what I get for doing stuff from memory).
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with ++ SO's.
17.71% Max Defence from Energy Absorbtion (not what I had earlier).
[/ QUOTE ]
why should I slot these powers now?
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
We appreciate you posting the numbers, States, but out of curiousity, what is your point in posting them? Hopefully it's to offer explanation as to why Ice Tankers am teh sux currently.
Your first post said that Wet Ice and Energy Absorbtion is working as designed, then give numbers that make me want to cry.
Look at Unyeilding, a power nearly identical to Wet Ice except for one small thing: Unyeilding is RESISTANCE and Wet Ice is DEFENSE. Because of the horrificly unpredictable nature of defenses, Wet Ice should have TWICE the base protection of Unyeilding.
My (sarcastic) fix: make Unyeilding .25% base resistance to all.
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the real numbers (that's what I get for doing stuff from memory).
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with ++ SO's.
17.71% Max Defence from Energy Absorbtion (not what I had earlier).
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow. Really, umm, wow.
If ever there was a doubt in my mind that Ice took the uber-nerf, this just erased it.
The ONLY reason my SR can still function even half [censored] on test is because of her primary. With the accuracy debuffs, and heal from Siphon life, she survives. The precentages on SR are so low that even with my agressive slotting, it's barely enough to get by.
And now you're telling me Ice, the tanker version of SR has two defensive powers that have a sub 1% base? And the point of having 0.5% defense would be?
I have argued all along that you (as developers) were going the right direction with these changes. However, you've sped past reasonable with Ice tanks. Ice tanks are supposed to hold aggro for a team. I wouldn't even want to solo with those numbers. I can build a blaster with better defense.
[ QUOTE ]
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with ++ SO's.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have to agree with everyone that this needs to be eliminated from the power, description and slotting. Players who do not read these boards are not given the information they need to make an 'informed decision' about whether this is worth it.
If there is anything else with numbers below 5%, don't include that information in the description since it is really misleading.
Scorus
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the real numbers (that's what I get for doing stuff from memory).
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with ++ SO's.
17.71% Max Defence from Energy Absorbtion (not what I had earlier).
[/ QUOTE ]
Great. Now spend some time defending the changes, because I really enjoy knowing my Tanker looks worse than Scrappers defensively. What does an Ice Tank get to compensate?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the real numbers (that's what I get for doing stuff from memory).
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with ++ SO's.
17.71% Max Defence from Energy Absorbtion (not what I had earlier).
[/ QUOTE ]
why should I slot these powers now?
[/ QUOTE ]
Well I certainly wouldn't slot them for DEF. Of course I've always thought it was a waste to slot a base 5% DEF power (such as Combat Jumping, formerly) for DEF. 
Just not enough return for the investment when slots are at a premium.
CGU:
Honor Harrison: 50 PB
CGS:
Capt. Arabella Blood: 50 Ice/Kin C
Maiden Might: 50 SS/INV B
Valentina Metis: 50 NW
Dark Falconayra: 45 EM/DA B
Imperiatrix: 45 Fire/Kin C
Fiona Flitterwing: 47 Ice/Kin C
Doc Electroshock: 43 SM/ELA B
What the hell is the point of a 1.265% defense increase, especially when you have to use 6 slots to get there? That's absolutely useless. What is the rationale behind this decision?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the real numbers (that's what I get for doing stuff from memory).
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with ++ SO's.
17.71% Max Defence from Energy Absorbtion (not what I had earlier).
[/ QUOTE ]
why should I slot these powers now?
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't play Ice much myself, but I have to agree, especially for Wet Ice. Those numbers are on the far end of negligible, and the returns for slotting it are meaningless. I'd say drop all defense from it, reduce endurance cost correspondingly, and just bill it as Ice's anti-mez power.
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the real numbers (that's what I get for doing stuff from memory).
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with ++ SO's.
17.71% Max Defence from Energy Absorbtion (not what I had earlier).
[/ QUOTE ]
You might as well just say .5% base and throw out the 1.265% max for Wet Ice. Please provide a scenario in which an individual would actually waste the slots (not to mention the influence) to have 1.265% added to their defense for 3/5th of their SO levels? 10% down to .5% represents a defense now worth 1/20th of its original value. If you take into account the likelihood of someone fully slotting Wet Ice in I4 versus I5 it goes from 1/20 to 1/60ish of the original power's value. Why not just get rid of the defense in the power? At least get rid of the ability to add defense enhancements as newbies will not understand that those enhancements aren't actually adding any value. I'm sticking with your guys even if all goes through (I like a challenge) but .5% feels like you are insulting us...please, please convince me I'm wrong.
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the real numbers (that's what I get for doing stuff from memory).
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with ++ SO's.
17.71% Max Defence from Energy Absorbtion (not what I had earlier).
[/ QUOTE ]
LMAO! And you can post that without doing a double take?
*shakes head* Do you expect tankers to actually slot their primaries anymore? Or are we supposed to devote all of our slots to secondaries and pool powers?
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the real numbers (that's what I get for doing stuff from memory).
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with ++ SO's.
17.71% Max Defence from Energy Absorbtion (not what I had earlier).
[/ QUOTE ]
This is just silly (both, but mainly Wet Ice). This CANNOT be the result of deliberate game design. The idea of offering a "power" that offers an imperceptible and statistically insignificant benefit is cruel and unusual game design.
I'd LOVE to hear the justification for a sub 1% base defense (realistically a sub 3%) power that accepts defense enhancements. Seriously.
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the real numbers (that's what I get for doing stuff from memory).
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with ++ SO's.
17.71% Max Defence from Energy Absorbtion (not what I had earlier).
[/ QUOTE ]
Thats just absurd States. A power that gives you that low a benefit when six slotted with SOs might as well not have that attribute enhancebale.
I'm not entirely sure why the Ice Armor set is the target of so much reduction in effectivenes.
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Villains
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Illuminance
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[ QUOTE ]
Here's the real numbers (that's what I get for doing stuff from memory).
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with ++ SO's.
17.71% Max Defence from Energy Absorbtion (not what I had earlier).
[/ QUOTE ]
Firstly, thank you for clearing up the confusion.
Secondly, 
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the real numbers (that's what I get for doing stuff from memory).
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with ++ SO's.
17.71% Max Defence from Energy Absorbtion (not what I had earlier).
[/ QUOTE ]
I am absolutely croggled that you can post these numbers with a straight face.
Please explain why you think these numbers are in any way adequate to do a Tanker's job.
Yup, I'll agree here. Numbers like these are crazy. Poor, poor ice tanks.
Also, regarding the matter of informed decisions, I really think that needs to be kept in mind for a significant number of the post-I5 defensive powers, which now have strikingly low return on investment for slots. Wet Ice clearly takes the cake for that, though. Sure, a forum reader can read the giant bold text in guides that say DO NOT SLOT WET ICE!!! ...but if the vast majority of players never come to the forums, they'll have no idea.
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, Wet Ice and Energy Absorption provide relatively small DEF buffs. This is not a bug and by design. Wet Ice provides a base defense of +.5%; Energy Absorption provides the same buff for every foe within melee range (up to a maximum of 14 targets).
[/ QUOTE ]
I seem to recall either you saying (either in a post or quoted) that the intention is to balance all the defensive sets. You also said that the fact that ice is underperforming is a concern.
It's practically impossible to reconcile those statements with the above numbers. This is a deeper cut than invuln took to resist + defense combined. I can't think of any good reason ever to slot a power to boost a .5% defense boost. I can't think of any good reason to care about a defense bonus below 5%, or care about slotting one below 7.5%. Wet Ice is still required for the status resists, but you've gutted ice ability to defend against fire.
On live, my ice tanker can die instantly from a spawn's alpha strike. It happens often enough to be noticeable. Not the rule, but definitely a concern. It happens more often when fire or toxic is involved. These changes simply change that from "it happens on occasion" to "you risk it every time you jump into a spawn."
You've just made ice armor inarguably the weakest tanker primary, and definitely put it in competition for the weakest defensive set overall, with SR also vying for the title.
[ QUOTE ]
One shotting by AV's. In a word, you are ALL correct. It's not a good thing for an Ice Tanker to be leveled by a single blow. So we're going back and changing the damage done by AV's so that it's no longer possible for a Tanker to be one shotted.
[/ QUOTE ]
I foresee a situation where AVs will do less damage, but hit ice tankers more often (even with reduced accuracy), thus leaving ice tankers in the same straits they are now. It doesn't matter if it only takes three or four shots to finish an ice tanker if all three or four attacks are likely to hit.
I can appreciate the desire to make defenders a wanted part of the team...but they already are. I shouldn't want/need a bubbler, as an ice tanker, to boost my defense. Defense is the point of ice. Sonic Resonance provides a boost that would be of great help to ice tankers, rad and dark debuff incoming damage.
Right now, it looks like you want tanker and scrapper defenses to be irrelevant on teams, in comparison to defender and control buffs. I don't think this will work. Tanker defenses need to be viable without defenders, or with only one defender. They don't need to be so uber that the tanker can mitigate 99% of all incoming damage (invulnerability until issue 4), but the defenses should mean something.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the real numbers (that's what I get for doing stuff from memory).
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with ++ SO's.
17.71% Max Defence from Energy Absorbtion (not what I had earlier).
[/ QUOTE ]
Those numbers are ... well I'd laugh but really... States you have got to do something about that. Neither power is worth even slotting. Heck EA is close to not worth taking. Wet Ice is good for Status protection. But you have to see that any player who doesn't read the boards is going to slot this and be totally wasting his slots. He'd be much better taking add slotting CJ then slottiing Wet Ice. 5 time better off.
Alright. its pretty obvious that the ice armor is pretty screwy and that we ice tanks are at the bottom of the food chain, but I just don't see the problem. I'd rather be one of a few ice tanks out there(which I am) than one of the inv or fire tanks that everyone else is. The ice armor isn't used by most players and thats the main reason I wanted to use it. I feel kinda special (in a good way 
) when I run around talos or wherever and I'm the only high lvl ice tank around. I hate it when other people have the same powers as me because it seems to cheapen me. If everyone stated using ice armor, I would honestly me disappointed.
The ice armor also presents a challenge. I see fire tanks run around with blazing aura and take out groups of baddies. Of course things like that won't be possoble after I5, but anyways. I would get bored if I could do things like that with my ice tank. I know alot of players wouldn't agree with me, but I prefer ice armor over all others. The challenges it has and the lack of use by players just appeals to me.
Don't pity me for being icy, pity me for the way I dance. There ya go, hope you enjoyed my 2 cents. 
[ QUOTE ]
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with ++ SO's.
[/ QUOTE ]
Awesome. I'm gonna six-slot Superjump for Endurance Reduction next. 
In all seriousness, I too am fine with removing the ability to slot Defense in Wet Ice. As a safety measure, if anything.
Gawd, now I need to go home and check to see if I've wasted slots like that. I should have consulted the various player-run power databases better. 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the real numbers (that's what I get for doing stuff from memory).
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with ++ SO's.
17.71% Max Defence from Energy Absorbtion (not what I had earlier).
[/ QUOTE ]
Thats just absurd States. A power that gives you that low a benefit when six slotted with SOs might as well not have that attribute enhancebale.
I'm not entirely sure why the Ice Armor set is the target of so much reduction in effectivenes.
[/ QUOTE ]
"Energy Absorption was too powerful, and even with issue 4's reduction might still be too massive."
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[ QUOTE ]
Save development manhours and ask them for their numbers! 
Why do you seem to be obsessed with whacking the entire game across the board when one set is out of line?
[/ QUOTE ]
I have the same question, but framed in perhaps less drama.
Seriously, guys, there's too much "baby with the bathwater" stuff going on here. Too much amputation when only minor surgery is needed.
If individual powersets are out of balance, then adjust them. We will wait happily during that tedious process, and even happier if you show us some justifying numbers that we can chew on while we wait.
If the game is globally too easy, then adjust your "purple patch" and XP chart accordingly. Do that only after individual powersets are balanced amongst themselves because only then have you established (and implemented!) a baseline.
~~~~~
X% DEF <> X% RES. They're supposed to be two (circumstantially) equal-yet-different paths to achieve the same goal, and we're all cool with that. However, the core problem is that right now X% DEF < X% RES < X% (DEF + RES).
The I5 changes have globally reduced "X," which doesn't actually fix the inequality. In some cases it actually amplifies the problem. That adjustment is more of a "But it was the BEST butter!" kind of solution.
I see two choices:
1) Change the combat formula to allow X% DEF = X% RES across the board. This is the sort of global change that would bring balance in an obvious manner.
2) Weight the numbers in the damage mitigation sets differently, proportionate to their effectiveness. This is the sort of targeted fix that would help exactly those who needed help without creating a slew of side effects.
The cool thing is that you have hundreds of thousands of players out there, and some of them happily run return-on-investment spreadsheets without even being asked.