That does help some.
I would suggest just labeling it the Status protection power for the set.
[color=gold][b][size=5]♪ Sometimes you feel like a Tank, Sometimes you don't! ♪[/size][/color][/b]
[url=http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=114726][color=black][b][size=5]Moon [color=red]Hazard [color=black]Zone![/size][/color][/color][/color][/b][/url]
Don't forget to include this fact in the patch notes, so people will know what's going on.
It might even be a good idea to tag a note onto the in game description for a while. At least until this becomes common knowledge.
States, this is nice....
...but *come on*. Why do you make these MASSIVE steps in killing a power, and then take these itty bitty baby steps in rectifying your error?
You broke Ice Armor. You're wrong. Accept it.
[ QUOTE ]
Here's what we'll do: Wet Ice will no longer accept Def Enhancements. We'll increase the base def somewhat. Def Enhancements that are currently slotted will continue to have an effect, but players won't be able to slot new Def Enhancements into it.
[/ QUOTE ]
So... people with current ice tanks have a chance to be (slightly) ahead of the game on defense, but only 'til they respec (and have to re-slot their enhancements)? That feels vaguely weird. I imagine they're probably no cleaner way to handle it, but it does feel like a weird disincentive for players. Would it be better to just pull the def from Wet Ice entirely and make it up in other powers?
Also, how much is "somewhat"? Are we talking doubling the current test base to a total of 1% here? 2?
[ QUOTE ]
We're also adding resistance to Toxic in Permafrost to bring it into line with Invulnerability's Resist Elements.
[/ QUOTE ]
That, at least, is a positive step (though of course with Resist Elements at 7.5% right now, I'm unconvinced that this actually makes Permafrost a good power).
Tell me this Statesman:
Why can't hoarfrost have the same recharge and affects as Healing Flames? Sure seems that defense could use the heals as much as my fire tank does.
Why not swap Icicles with Glacial Armor in the power sets so we can have defense across the board prior to completing 2/5 of our levels?
If EA is going to have a defense so low you need to hit the max enemies to use it why not make it a glorified Consume? Drop the defense buff put it in the toggles. EA isn't even perma without Hasten or slotting.
Put the Slow resist in Chilling Embrace and max it out or let us slot it. There is not need for slow resist all over the place.
Take the 0.5% buff in Wet Ice and trade that for something useful. Maybe regen buff or if you make Hoarfrost cycle like Healing flames add a HP boost of 20% with the toggle on?
I love they Hibernate I have with my Controller, but the power really has no synergy with Ice set. Ice is Dead or close while Resist type tanks usually have a more gradual decline when a fight is going bad. I would recommend that if Ice would have some of my other changes that Ice swap Hibernate for a self rez power similar to Rise of the Phoenix. Maybe a "Cold Start" 
These are just my thoughts on what may make ice a more synergized set even if we need to dicker with the percentages all day. Like you all say, defense is soo far out of phase with resistance there is really no comparison. A resist based character rarely has to leave a fight due to damage. A defense character has to check himself every other hit.
[ QUOTE ]
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with ++ SO's.
17.71% Max Defence from Energy Absorbtion (not what I had earlier).
[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds like a Bad case of Cranium Rectum Inversion.
33% DEF Smash/Lethal
33% DEF Energy/Negative
Wet Ice: negligible DEF
Energy Absorption: negligible DEF
Wow an Entire Defensive set that can be eliminated with just one fully slotted power: Tactics, Vengeance, Targeting Drone, Aim, Build Up, Fortitude, Radiation Infection, Neutron Bomb, or Irradiate. Take your Pick.
Of course its not just limited to Ice Tanks. The same goes for Super Reflexes, Force Field and Stone Armor.
******
Something I forgot
Tough Hide (AN AUTO POWER)at 5% Defense 6 slotted with ++SO's provides 11.9% Defense
So you have to hit 9 guys with Energy Absorbtion to equal the effects of an Auto Power. YAY!!
C.R.I.
But it gives you End now??
Wake UP!!
Dead Tanks Don't Use Endurance.
Forgive me if I dont open a Bottle to Celebrate!
[ QUOTE ]
Just got out of a meeting with Geko...
I completely concur that the Wet Ice Def buff is so slender that it's pointless to slot Def Enhancements...but people already have done so.
Here's what we'll do: Wet Ice will no longer accept Def Enhancements. We'll increase the base def somewhat. Def Enhancements that are currently slotted will continue to have an effect, but players won't be able to slot new Def Enhancements into it.
We're also adding resistance to Toxic in Permafrost to bring it into line with Invulnerability's Resist Elements.
[/ QUOTE ]
And yet another bunch of useless changes.
What it's surprising/sad is that took you guys a couple of weeks and a LOT of user feedback to realize this... Kind of makes you wonder about the state of the rest of the game (Not like we're not wondering already)
At least WI's change is only going to help those who don't visit the forums (More of a quality of life that has nothing to do with tanking quality). Permafrost still is a useless power that only those who were going to slot WI with defense are going to take (Unless you are planning on increasing Permafrost's Fire and Toxic resistance to 30% unslotted, something I'm against to as well. Ice don't need resistance, it needs smart ideas)
You guys are yet to address the real problems here:
- Our defense is horrible (We can't even cap even level mobs)
- EA is nothing but Consume (Fire Tankers)
- Horrible fire defense
- No psionic defense
- Mobs with high accuracy can do horrible things to us (With I5 that is basically every single mob out there)
- We are 1-3 shotted by AVs (Something you are not going to fix by reducing AV's damage, you are just increasing the gap between Ice and other tankers by doing that)
I could see that that was the direction of Wet Ice (Energy Absorption too, for that matter), but your "somewhat" tends to mean way too little. If you hold true to form (and I think you will) it'll mean MAYBE a 5% boost. Rethink your balancing of Res v/ Def... it's way off. I do like that you're making permafrost usefull, though. Just don't think that by tossing a few crumbs that we'll ignore the bigger issues.
50 Tankers: Ice/EM, Stone/WM, Fire/Stone, Dark/Ice, Inv/SS, Inv/Dark, Elec/Elec
50 Brutes: ElecMelee/EA, WM/Elec
I've never played an Ice Tank, but I do play an SR scrapper and am pretty afraid of the nerfs that I5 includes, so I can feel for Ice. I gasped when I saw those official numbers, 0.5% defense is a joke, especially when it's a primary power.
I was curious and checked my beta notes, they say Wet Ice used to have:
Res: Cold 30%
Def: Smashing Attack 9%
Def: Lethal Attack 9%
Def: Fire Attack 9%
Def: Cold Attack 13%
Def: Energy Attack 13%
Def: Neg Energy Atk 13%
I know it's been a while since then, but can it really be that this power has been nerfed so hard? Reduced to not even 5% of its original stats?
On the other hand, when I check the original SR defense values and look at the new I5 ones, I guess it's possible...
States, the global reduction of to hit and defense values might be a good idea, a step in the right direction, but please keep you feet on the ground and overlook those numbers again in all seriousness. Keep in mind who uses what powerset for what purpose and think hard about what exactly you want to achieve.
Poison � Sabbath
[ QUOTE ]
Why can't hoarfrost have the same recharge and affects as Healing Flames? Sure seems that defense could use the heals as much as my fire tank does.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sure I can answer that one: Because hoarfrost also provides a 40% HP boost (A la Dull Pain).
They would have to remove the HP boost. Personally I think permafrost should be changed into "healing flames".
Actually, this reminds me of the initial resists for Invulnerable tanks. At first, I was horrified but then I calmed down and realized they were so silly that the Devs weren't serious.
This probably means we'll see some global defense buffs: the current level is perhaps deemed to be too low.
I think Ice needs some small, basic resists and the logical place to do that is in wet Ice. Let the power be slotted for Restance and give it a decent base.
It does seem like tanks and scrappers personal defense is now fairly irrelevant and we should just give up the ghost and build blasters, defenders, with a few controllers in the mix.
[ QUOTE ]
That, at least, is a positive step (though of course with Resist Elements at 7.5% right now, I'm unconvinced that this actually makes Permafrost a good power).
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I agree I still wouldn't take it. Toxic isn't much use above 40, unless you venture into the sewers.
This just boggles me...I hope all these baby steps move us into the right direction somehow.
Why not drop the cold resist from Permafrost and add smashing/lethal 10% or Energy/Neg energy 10% in addition to the Toxic and Fire resist at 10%?
If we're going to keep Wet Ice a status protection power, could we at least look at bringing Frozen Armor and Glacial Armor back up to 25% base. That'd let us at least floor even con minions.
Even with the changes you've mentioned, we still have less Defense than just about anyone, we still have more gaps and weaknesses than any other tank (Fire, Psychic, and a minor hole to toxic with untyped attacks ~ Hydras etc)
So, let's see....fixed the endurance issues +, going to fix AV one shot +, we still aren't tanking anywhere near the other primaries - ....Come on States, help us get the rest of the way.
ok states now explain which [censored] you fired for the 0.5% base getting beyond the suggestion stage, into the design stage and into the implementation on test stage, because anyone working there who was involved in that is a [censored].
While youre at it the same applies to ANY power under 5%, hell even a 5% defence base means an enhancement gives 1% adjustment (that same enhancement gives 33% adjustment to damage, yes i know they arent the same but thats a HUGE difference, and you let 0.5% base go in!!)
Now explain why you are fixing it and some people will have (depending on peoples viewpoint) a privledge of having extra defence from the enhancements remaining, or a disadvantage of them being wasted...
Jack, what about the power costs on the armors, Embrace, and Icicles though?
EA helps a lot if you have it, to be sure, but you can theoretically get all the Ice toggles WAY before EA. They give less survivability than Stone Armor or Invulnerability, but still cost MORE.
The reduction in Rest time was meant to help this a bit, I guess, but why is Frozen Armor still costing us .75 endurance a second? That's right up there with Cloak of Fear's old cost, and far's I know Armor's still not being lowered in I5.
I'd love to take Ice Sword, Fists, Frost, Touch, and Greater Sword. I can only ever find power for Fists and Frost before Singles and Stamina. EA just lets me actually attack for a change rather than conserving power.
With two End reductions on every armor and Embrace, sixed Stamina, and no Icicles I still am only clearing about 1.92 per second going by my planner. Icicles would send that recovery WAY subpar to baseline if ya put any accuracy or damage on it at all. If you wanted to do as well powerwise between EA's as a level one hero does, you'd have to six Icicles with Reductions.
Can ya give us any reason this set's so expensive to run? Every other tanker AT's much less power intensive, barring possibly Granite, but that's still the ONLY armor you need going when you have it. We use WAY more slots for a lesser effect.
If Icicles wasn't meant to be run all the time, make it a Click Power, huh? Worked for Regen, and I might actually take it then. Why not save us poor people some slots and make it autohit too? Mud Pots and Burn sure are, and Icicles are resisted MUCH more readily by mobs since they're Lethal. They don't even Immobilize, and BARELY cost less than Mud Pots.
Toxic Resistance is nice, but what am I supposed to do pre Stamina and EA still? Hope my spammed Frozen Fists drop zombies fast enough before they get a lucky shot in and kill me? Without those two powers, it takes about six chained attacks with Ice Sword and Fists to run you down to el zilcho.
"I'm flying free with my beautiful butterfly wings!" ~ Randy Marsh
[ QUOTE ]
Here's what we'll do: Wet Ice will no longer accept Def Enhancements. We'll increase the base def somewhat. Def Enhancements that are currently slotted will continue to have an effect, but players won't be able to slot new Def Enhancements into it.
We're also adding resistance to Toxic in Permafrost to bring it into line with Invulnerability's Resist Elements.
[/ QUOTE ]
How bizzare. Some Ice Tankers just got rare loot. 
Depending on what the base value is I see some IT's never wanting to remove those enhancements. I assume they won't be able to replace them though if they expire due to levelling, so the handful of level 50 Ice Tankers with DEF slotted EA just got something unique that no one else can have...
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Statesman, with the multiple weaknesses that Ice has, would it not make sense to take one away? Why should Ice be weak to both Fire and Psy?
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
[ QUOTE ]
- We are 1-3 shotted by AVs (Something you are not going to fix by reducing AV's damage, you are just increasing the gap between Ice and other tankers by doing that)
[/ QUOTE ]
Great point!
[ QUOTE ]
We're also adding resistance to Toxic in Permafrost to bring it into line with Invulnerability's Resist Elements.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why are you adding resist when ice is all defense?
Permafrost still isn't as useful as it should be. The cold resist is pointless as we get it with every other armor. The fire res was so low it was pointless for how often we fight fire types. Basically only Nemesis and a few scattered minions in other types use fire after the 20s.
The toxic is very nice though. Ice gets murdered by Vahz in the early levels and that's just mean.
[ QUOTE ]
Here's what we'll do: Wet Ice will no longer accept Def Enhancements. We'll increase the base def somewhat. Def Enhancements that are currently slotted will continue to have an effect, but players won't be able to slot new Def Enhancements into it.
We're also adding resistance to Toxic in Permafrost to bring it into line with Invulnerability's Resist Elements.
[/ QUOTE ]
Have you looked at the data Circeus sent you?
Yes, it's good to not let people waste slots by not telling them about caps and worthless enhancements. Hurrah.
Have. You. Read. The. Numbers. Ice tanks are still vastly inferior. What are you doing about that? A slight enhancement to Wet Ice won't fix that. Returning Wet Ice to what it was before STILL WOULDN'T FIX THAT. If you brought every other kind of tanker down and left us alone, then you might have made it an even field.
What have you and Geko discussed about the Defense vs Resist problem? Everyone here knows they're unequal, except, apparently, for you guys.
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the real numbers (that's what I get for doing stuff from memory).
17.71% Max Defence from Energy Absorbtion (not what I had earlier).
[/ QUOTE ]Awesome. The core power in a tanker primary, six-slotted with SOs, leeched off of a tight clump of fourteen enemies provides substantially less defense than a basic luck inspiration. Let's not forget that in real play, even on an eight man team (and thus huge spawns) it's rare to get more than four to six enemies in EA's radius, which at those numbers will provide just enough def to maybe have a noticeable impact on green minions.
That makes a whole lot of sense. Especially when you consider that one power is pretty much the sum total of the tank's fire protection. Flamethrowers and fire-breathing demons are more than a little bit frequent in Paragon.
I like my ice tank. Right now she kicks major butt and needs nerfing, no question about it. But with EA destroyed that much, it's looking like my blasters and defenders will be able to handle bigger and nastier spawns than my ice tank will, while at the same time dealing more damage. This is really going too far.
[ QUOTE ]
Just got out of a meeting with Geko...
I completely concur that the Wet Ice Def buff is so slender that it's pointless to slot Def Enhancements...but people already have done so.
Here's what we'll do: Wet Ice will no longer accept Def Enhancements. We'll increase the base def somewhat. Def Enhancements that are currently slotted will continue to have an effect, but players won't be able to slot new Def Enhancements into it.
We're also adding resistance to Toxic in Permafrost to bring it into line with Invulnerability's Resist Elements.
[/ QUOTE ]
Good plan. Can you do this with all powers with defense bonuses under 5%? An enhancer should offer at least a 1% return on your investment. With stuff like maneuvers at 2%, its just sad to see people wasting slots. I pity the noob who enhances stealth.
States, I have to say that's not even remotely enough. That's not even a bandaid or an acknowledgement, it's just a knee jerk. And you still havn't answered the pertinent question.
When Ice was the most underpowered of the tanker primaries, why did you see fit to hit it the hardest with the nerf bat?
Is it because watching the shattering of ice is fun? Then go clean out your freezer. Only in the most warped of minds did anyone think that Ice was over powered on live. Yet you've chosen to not only weaken it as much as you weakened the other, stronger sets, but you went one step farther and drove it into the ground.
I normally agree with the things that are going on around here. I defend the devs usually. Not here. Global defense nerf or not, the changes to Ice armor have gone entirely too far. The logic, or lack there of is mind boggling.
Prove to me you know what impact your having on the set. Because right now I don't think you have any clue.
Just got out of a meeting with Geko...
I completely concur that the Wet Ice Def buff is so slender that it's pointless to slot Def Enhancements...but people already have done so.
Here's what we'll do: Wet Ice will no longer accept Def Enhancements. We'll increase the base def somewhat. Def Enhancements that are currently slotted will continue to have an effect, but players won't be able to slot new Def Enhancements into it.
We're also adding resistance to Toxic in Permafrost to bring it into line with Invulnerability's Resist Elements.