[ QUOTE ]
Just got out of a meeting with Geko...
I completely concur that the Wet Ice Def buff is so slender that it's pointless to slot Def Enhancements...but people already have done so.
Here's what we'll do: Wet Ice will no longer accept Def Enhancements. We'll increase the base def somewhat. Def Enhancements that are currently slotted will continue to have an effect, but players won't be able to slot new Def Enhancements into it.
We're also adding resistance to Toxic in Permafrost to bring it into line with Invulnerability's Resist Elements.
[/ QUOTE ]
Edit: Y'know, making DEF enhancements that are currently in the power still work is a bad idea. You're now creating a have and have not scenario, and that is really bad. In fact its terribly bad, you yourself have said you don't want have and have not scenarios.
And is that all?
I mean you're still leaving us in a state where we're worlds beyond... wait for it... Scrappers.
You still need to explain why both Fire and Psi need to be weaknesses.
I've got a better idea, why don't you roll Permafrost into Wet Ice, along with the Toxic RES and then people can slot Wet Ice for RES, and then do something really clever with Permafrost.
Realisitically people need to know what you envision for not just Ice Tankers, but Tankers in general. I mean people are unclear about Tankers, and people are extremely unclear about Ice Tankers.
Why does it appear Invuln gets to play by a different set of rules than Ice when you sit down for balancing?
Another Edit: And why are you designing Ice to a point where it will most certainly need to go grab Tough and possibly other pool powers to still remain lower than some Scrappers?
Yet Another Edit: I hope the End costs of both Wet Ice and Energy Absorption have both been considerably reduced from their original values considering how much less functional they are now then previously.
Even Another Edit: Why not make Wet Ice into the Auto-Power and have Permafrost be the Toggle power? Make Ice really unique by making its Status resistances un-toggleable.
[ QUOTE ]
Just got out of a meeting with Geko...
I completely concur that the Wet Ice Def buff is so slender that it's pointless to slot Def Enhancements...but people already have done so.
Here's what we'll do: Wet Ice will no longer accept Def Enhancements. We'll increase the base def somewhat. Def Enhancements that are currently slotted will continue to have an effect, but players won't be able to slot new Def Enhancements into it.
We're also adding resistance to Toxic in Permafrost to bring it into line with Invulnerability's Resist Elements.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wet Ice should be comparable, defensively, to Unyielding or Rooted. As it is, or with the changes you're talking about, it's definitely behind other tanker status shields.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
Alright, I tried to stay out of this for as long as possible, I really did. I kept saying to myself that the Devs would realise that they had broken Ice tankers, and they would fix it. Then I log on after work today, and realise that no, Ice wasn't broken on test, that it was working as intended. You've got to be kidding me. We're the weakest tankers out there. Hell, even blasters are coming into the tank forums and wondering why Ice tanks were hit like they were with the Nerf bat.
Then I see the responses from people who play the game. They say, sometimes rather sarcastically, that gee, if WI is providing such low defense, why even slot it? So what do you Devs do, but take away the ability to slot it. Look at Circeus's numbers and tell me where the balance is. Or heck, let's just take a little example here...
Unyielding: provides resistance and status protection
Rooted: provides increased heal rate and status protection
Wet Ice: provides status protection and measely defense (even if you multiply the .5% defense by ten to bring it to 5% defense, it's still barely noticable)
I mean come on Devs. We liked playing Ice tanks. For us they were fun. If they weren't, you wouldn't see any outcry from us, and we'd just move on. Will CoH still be fun, maybe, I'll have to wait and see. Will it be as fun, no. It took me since last August to get my Ice tank to 39. Now I don't know if I'm going to bother playing him. Which really disappoints me, because I really liked him. Now he'll just hang out in AP like a Christmas ornament with hibernate running.
Seriously, look at the numbers, look at what people are saying about this, and look at the outcry by people who don't even play Ice tanks. We're all left with our jaws on the floor wondering why you don't see how Ice tanks are broken. We realise you were gone for a while (and best wishes to your brother in Iraq) but these knee-jerk reactions are not helping you any.
Keep Ice as it is on live for a bit. Then sit down with the rest of the Devs and THINK about ways to adjust Ice Armor that might bring it down a bit (not like it was really needed) but not break it. Lowering an already weaker set by about 70% or more is not a good way to provide balance.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
[ QUOTE ]
Just got out of a meeting with Geko...
I completely concur that the Wet Ice Def buff is so slender that it's pointless to slot Def Enhancements...but people already have done so.
Here's what we'll do: Wet Ice will no longer accept Def Enhancements. We'll increase the base def somewhat. Def Enhancements that are currently slotted will continue to have an effect, but players won't be able to slot new Def Enhancements into it.
We're also adding resistance to Toxic in Permafrost to bring it into line with Invulnerability's Resist Elements.
[/ QUOTE ]
So I assume you'll be reducing the endurance cost by 75%?
Here's a little tidbit from the dev response tanker thread that might have some specific relevance to Ice tankers (presuming that the defense numbers themselves can get worked out):
[ QUOTE ]
Second, Tankers have a higher Resistance cap than the other Archetypes (90%). I confess that currently they share the same defense cap – but that doesn't sound right, does it? So we're raising the defense cap for Tankers. Thus, Tankers will be able to benefit most from Resistance and Defense buffs.
[/ QUOTE ]
I can't be sure, because there is no defense cap, but I think he means lowering the to-hit floor for tanks, which would theoretically improve damage mitigation for ice tanks (over over ATs like SR scrappers, but necessarily over other tanks) if they could actually get to the floor in the first place.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the real numbers (that's what I get for doing stuff from memory).
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with +++ SO's.
17.71% Max Defence from Energy Absorbtion (not what I had earlier).
[/ QUOTE ]
Urgh, thats just too low. I don't mind needing a defender to reach my full tanking potential, but one shouldn't be required to at least be a competent tank.
Further problems with this "fix":
1) If implemented this way, Hamidon Enhancers will likely still be able to effect defense.
2) Do you mean you will be able to upgrade current defense enhancements or will that be stopped as well?
------------------------------------------------------------------
There have been a lot of respected and well informed board members give numbers and examples of why Ice is now broken compared to the other primaries. What is supposed to be the benefit of being Ice? It is not the most defense. That would be Invulnerability. It is not the most control, because Stone has as much. It is obviously not the most damage or resistance. So, what is the reason, other than thematic, to take Ice? What can they accomplish that others can't do just as well or a lot better?
[ QUOTE ]
Here's a little tidbit from the dev response tanker thread that might have some specific relevance to Ice tankers (presuming that the defense numbers themselves can get worked out):
[ QUOTE ]
Second, Tankers have a higher Resistance cap than the other Archetypes (90%). I confess that currently they share the same defense cap – but that doesn't sound right, does it? So we're raising the defense cap for Tankers. Thus, Tankers will be able to benefit most from Resistance and Defense buffs.
[/ QUOTE ]
I can't be sure, because there is no defense cap, but I think he means lowering the to-hit floor for tanks, which would theoretically improve damage mitigation for ice tanks (over over ATs like SR scrappers, but necessarily over other tanks) if they could actually get to the floor in the first place.
[/ QUOTE ]
Except that with defense numbers as they are now, we won't be able to floor most minions even now, let alone if they raise the "cap". If they give us back most of our defense, then yes, it will be great. But it doesn't matter much now.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
[ QUOTE ]
Wet Ice will no longer accept Def Enhancements. We'll increase the base def somewhat. Def Enhancements that are currently slotted will continue to have an effect, but players won't be able to slot new Def Enhancements into it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hasn't there been enough trouble with the Legacy Wolf Mission?
Just run thru the database, delete those enhances and refund the full purchase price for them.
I like the idea of making WI just defend Elements instead of against all. I'll take double the Def against half the attacks if it gives us good Fire and Toxic protection.
For Permafrost, make it a Resist-All, like the Ice version of Tough Hide. (Invuln gets 1 Defend-All power, it's only fair we get 1 Resist-All power.) To make it interesting, and solve the AV issue, make the Resist scale up against AVs. Maybe 5% Res for Minions, 10 for Lts, 15 Bosses, 20 Elites/Monsters, 25% for AVs.
[ QUOTE ]
I can't be sure, because there is no defense cap, but I think he means lowering the to-hit floor for tanks, which would theoretically improve damage mitigation for ice tanks (over over ATs like SR scrappers, but necessarily over other tanks) if they could actually get to the floor in the first place.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which they can't for I5, so the point is moot. I mean Invuln Tankers can do it for anything presuming they get enough near them, but under the same circumstances, Ice won't even come close for this change to matter.
My Ice tank was the first toon I ever made and maybe thats why I love ice armor so much. Honestly, ice armor is horrible. The only reason I chose it was the ability to stack the toogles, but I've learned that that isn't even enough. Its an amazing drain on End and it still doesn't compair to other tanks, or scrappers. I can't even look at the arenas without cringing. Everytime I do venture inside them I usually meet a scrapper. I think to myself, "Hmm, a scrapper. I should be able to take him out, or at least survive for the match." That of course isn't the case at all. Within no time at all, I'm on the floor clicking the respawn button. In mishes I can hold my own, but I'm obviously overshadowed by any other tank/scrapper on the team.
On a team the Tanks are supposed to take the hits right? I mean we have zero range, our attacks don't do that much damage (compared to other Archetypes), we have almost no croud control, and we definately don't have pets. So how are we supposed to do our jobs when we don't have enough Def and Res to take the hits? What use is there for us tanks? What use indeed.
[ QUOTE ]
Here's what we'll do: Wet Ice will no longer accept Def Enhancements. We'll increase the base def somewhat. Def Enhancements that are currently slotted will continue to have an effect, but players won't be able to slot new Def Enhancements into it.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't want to be the one to bring this up, and maybe it's a dumb question, but ...
Clearly, this means that no one will be able to put new Def enhancements in WI ... but, for those who do already have Defs slotted in WI, can they continue combining new enhancements? In other words, suppose I have level 40 Defs slotted in that power when I5 goes live. Can I still combine those 40s with more 40s, and then when I hit 43 can I combine them with 45s to make +45s?
I don't recall any other situation where the ability to slot X enhancements was taken away after numerous people had already done so ... and so I'm curious how the mechanics would work. I don't actually have an Ice Tank, regardless.
-FCM
Please try MA arc ID 351455, "Shard Stories: Scavenger's Hunt." Originally created for the Dr. Aeon contest, it explores the wild potential of one of the City's most concept-rich but content-poor settings: the Shadow Shard.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't recall any other situation where the ability to slot X enhancements was taken away after numerous people had already done so ... and so I'm curious how the mechanics would work. I don't actually have an Ice Tank, regardless.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, like I said, them doing this is a HUGE mistake. Have and have not scenarios are a major bane of MMOs, and devs in general need to avoid these situations. It also means they're leaving in the functionality for it to recognize DEF enhancers, which means HOs that are 50% DEF and 50% something else that Wet Ice recognizes will be slottable, and that the DEF component of them will work. Very bad all around.
Edit: clarification, I knwo HOs are 33% per effect, but doing two things they are half one thing and half the other thing hence I said 50% and 50% as in half and half.
[ QUOTE ]
Here's what we'll do: Wet Ice will no longer accept Def Enhancements. We'll increase the base def somewhat. Def Enhancements that are currently slotted will continue to have an effect, but players won't be able to slot new Def Enhancements into it.
[/ QUOTE ]
While I am now happy to move these slots into an attack, I am somewhat disappointed. Don't get me wrong, I think this may actually work for the better. I do have one issue, though. There needs to be a choice on the players part as to how they are going to slot what skills. If a skill gets no benefit over the 1 slot, then something needs to be done. Even Rest gets a benefit for slotting it up. Not many people do it, but I'm sure it would be much improved with some Recharge, Health and End Recovery in it.
Cyclone Jack
-= idspispopd =-
[size=1]Arc ID: 3155 - Project Prometheus (Seeking Feedback, now with less invalidation)[/size]
Some have asked "have you looked at Circeus' numbers?"
Of course! Circeus does an absolutely terrific job of number crunching. His spreadsheets are great.
Here's my analysis of them.
The Defense given by Invincibility is incorrect in the table. Invincibility has a cap of 14 mobs; no more. The Invincibility Defense max for Tankers (with the Enhancement limitations Circeus placed) around 53% not 107.8%.
That changes the numbers significantly, but Invulnerability still ends up superior overall.
Now that assumes that the Invulnerability Tanker has 14 mobs within the slight range of Invincibility. Let's say that there's only 7 mobs within reach. Now Invincibility's defense boost (according to Circeus' chart) drops down to 26.5%. A quick scan down at the damage comparison shows that Invulnerability is superior only in Smashing, Lethal Damage and Fire damage; Ice bests Invulnerability in the other categories.
Unless an Invulnerability Tanker fires off Invincibility when 12 or more mobs are within range, according to Circeus' chart, Ice Armor will be superior to Invulnerability against Cold, Psionic, Toxic, Energy and Negative.
Also, Frozen Armor and Glacial Armor have a base 16% Def, not 15%.
I used Circeus' post here for the spreadsheets.
I'm kinda confused. Why even give a power .5% def? Thats well with in the errror proability.
Oh - one other change coming soon to the Training Room...
This was an idea taken right from this forum. Since Ice Armor has no Resistance, it's a zero sum sort of power set. In other words, you're hit or your not. Well, someone (I've forgotten who) suggested adding a Damage Debuff to one of the powers - and we did! Chilling Embrace gains the ability to debuff mob damage (though it's Recharge debuff is slightly slower now).
Sounds interesting. Is the speed debuff staying the same? That's what we slot it for.
[ QUOTE ]
Oh - one other change coming soon to the Training Room...
This was an idea taken right from this forum. Since Ice Armor has no Resistance, it's a zero sum sort of power set. In other words, you're hit or your not. Well, someone (I've forgotten who) suggested adding a Damage Debuff to one of the powers - and we did! Chilling Embrace gains the ability to debuff mob damage (though it's Recharge debuff is slightly slower now).
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a good change, that I like.
And not just because I'm one of the hojillion people who suggested it at one point or another. 
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
Interesting...
I'd like to see WI give 10% defense (unenhanceable...ok I really misspelled that...sorry). That would help young tanks get to 18 without hating the set.
Love the idea of the debuff.
One last question, what is teh base defense for EA? I hate for it to lose its defensive abilities.
GF
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's what we'll do: Wet Ice will no longer accept Def Enhancements. We'll increase the base def somewhat. Def Enhancements that are currently slotted will continue to have an effect, but players won't be able to slot new Def Enhancements into it.
[/ QUOTE ]
So... people with current ice tanks have a chance to be (slightly) ahead of the game on defense, but only 'til they respec (and have to re-slot their enhancements)? That feels vaguely weird.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed, that solution is rather clunky.
Since the entire set needs sprucing up anyway, I don't see the problem with giving it a valid amount of +Def and negating the need for slot voodoo.
Even if it's converted into +Def (Slow, Immobilize, Hold) it would still mean something more along the lines of its original intention.
[ QUOTE ]
Oh - one other change coming soon to the Training Room...
This was an idea taken right from this forum. Since Ice Armor has no Resistance, it's a zero sum sort of power set. In other words, you're hit or your not. Well, someone (I've forgotten who) suggested adding a Damage Debuff to one of the powers - and we did! Chilling Embrace gains the ability to debuff mob damage (though it's Recharge debuff is slightly slower now).
[/ QUOTE ]
A very welcome change.
[ QUOTE ]
Oh - one other change coming soon to the Training Room...
This was an idea taken right from this forum. Since Ice Armor has no Resistance, it's a zero sum sort of power set. In other words, you're hit or your not. Well, someone (I've forgotten who) suggested adding a Damage Debuff to one of the powers - and we did! Chilling Embrace gains the ability to debuff mob damage (though it's Recharge debuff is slightly slower now).
[/ QUOTE ]
* Blink *
I remember posting this on the original EA changes post, for I4... Good gravy, it was heard?
I'll just wait to see some numbers on how good the reduction is, but you again have my attention.
Thank you.
Posted here first...
People have recorded the base of Invincibility at 3.5%, so I was only going by that, please feel free to give the correct number (for range too please!)
3.5% * (1 + (6 * .22)) = 8.12% per mob.
8.12% * 14 mobs is 113.68.
For your 53% to be right, it'd have to be at about 1.75% or half of what people are recording. Is that correct, I'll feel free to update the spreadsheets for certain. Please note that people are recording a base of 2.625% for Scrappers for Invincibility, and that has tremendously more testing to back it up.
The spreadsheet takes the 14 mob cap into account for both EA and for Invincibility. And I hope you're adjusting both when you edit them. I'd be much keener if you just gave me the proper number to plug in.
And it assumes both have 14 mobs in range.
And as you said even if I change that base from 3.5% to 1.75% its still a very bleak output, even con:
Smash/Lethal: 807.54% damage vs Invuln
Energy/Negative: 158.47% damage vs Invuln
Fire: 548.90% damage vs Invuln
Cold: 80.72% damage vs Invuln
These numbers would make us the king of cold, which would be better for when you open a Winter Wonderland, but is otherwise not quite useful in the game mind you.
And what will the new percentages on Permafrost be, I'd like to figure that in too.
Sure dropping it to less than 14 mobs looks better for Ice somewhat, but not by much. Dropping to 10 (1 boss, 2 lts, 7 minions), it ends up looking like this even con:
Smash/Lethal: 432.73% damage vs Invuln
Energy/Negative: 84.92% damage vs Invuln (this looks much better comparitively)
Fire: 217.87% damage vs Invuln
Cold: 32.04% damage vs Invuln
And you're not reading the caveats that I posted, so lets go over them.
Toxic is impossible to tell, so is Psi. Please keep in mind that most Toxic and all Psi attacks are ranged and therefore they will not be in melee range to be affected by Chilling Embrace generally speaking.
I was very clear on this caveat, both on the spreadsheet, and in my posts and PMs. So don't gloss it over because its important. Very important, because its not really besting Invuln at all in either of these cases, it just appears to be.
Taking Chilling Embrace out of the picture, considering that these are ranged attacks, and figuring a smaller base value for Invinc, say 1.25% for ranged attacks, you will find that in fact vs both Psi and Toxic, Ice and Invuln are quite balanced, and its in fact why I generally don't mention either when discussing this.
In fact, for the curious, those numbers put Ice at taking 10% more (or 110%) Toxic damage than Invuln, and Invuln taking 10% more (or 110%) Psi damage than Ice. Which makes them balanced because as I stated earlier I felt 10% was a fair margin of error.
So please feel free to use my spreadsheet, but dont' violate the clauses I put into its use 
Thanks!!!
As if popping puple inspirations weren't all we needed to get more defense... now those same purple inpirations named luck will provide less defense than they did in Issue 4.
So we need to pop 4 more Lucks in order to be somewhat the same?