[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the real numbers (that's what I get for doing stuff from memory).
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with ++ SO's.
17.71% Max Defence from Energy Absorbtion (not what I had earlier).
[/ QUOTE ]
why should I slot these powers now?
[/ QUOTE ]
Reasons:
1. You're a "casual" gamer and don't know any better.
2. You're stubborn and still insist on playing an Ice Tank instead of reclaiming the slot.
3. You still want to tank, but want to save your FF defender buddy one slot in his little bubbles.
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Honest question here though Statesman. Ice Tanks are now demonstrably weaker than SR scrapper who at least don't have any holes in their meager defense. And SR Scrapper suck. So are you honestly saying that Ice tanks have any ability to tank?
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
[ QUOTE ]
Adron's comments brings me to a solution I came up with to make DEf equal to RES.
The problem lies in that DEF is *subtracted* from accuracy, while RES is *multipled* against damage.
ie: Accuracy = Base - DEF, while Damage = Base * (1-RES)
I propose we change the calculation for how DEF is applied, making it:
Accuracy = Base * (1-DEF).
[/ QUOTE ]
5 stars for you. This is a brilliant idea.
And as for the 0.5% base DEF...Are you nuts!?!
This is saying that one attack every 200 attempts will miss us, because of the defense given by this. Thats insignificant.
Statesman, you always say you want this game to appeal to the casual player...That we shouldnt *need* the numbers in order to build effective characters. And then you go off and do all these internal tests, and build characters knowing full well what the numbers are (and so you can make intelligent choices for slotting, and picking powers). Whereas Joe User sees "wow, let me slot this defensive power for more defense", and ends up wasting 5 slots.
When I heard that the game manual was going to be revised and re-released, I was excited...Finally I can see the sum total of all the game changes since release. Call me underwhelmed. I was expecting to see things like "integration is 50% enhanceable for heals". Or shoot, I'd have been happy with seeing that it even takes healing enhancements. With each issue, I've been trying to mentally keep track of how powers have changed for all my characters. The problems and unpleasant surprises have mostly been for new characters I've made for which I hadn't kept track of previous changes. And I still dont know if "50% enhanceable" means only a max of 3 heal enh's can be used, or if the percentage increase in rgen ability is 50% of what it should be.
I don't have an ice tanker (but I liked the idea, initially). What held me back was seeing that the armors don't stack. Last time I checked the in-game power descriptions at character creation, it still said the powers dont stack. But a few days ago an ice tanker told me they did. How can I make intelligent decisions when we (a) don't have the data, (b) are allowed to waste slots on useless enhancements, and (c) in-game and out-of-game documentation isn't kept current?
If you're going to let us slot a power with something, make those slots count. If you're so dead set against us being able to make intelligent decisions by ourselves, then you need to make the decisions for us. If we try slotting this ice power for defense, you need a figure that popups, waves an arm and says "thats not the enhancement you're looking for".
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the real numbers (that's what I get for doing stuff from memory).
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with ++ SO's.
17.71% Max Defence from Energy Absorbtion (not what I had earlier).
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, golly. It seems that you're trying to turn EA into an end restoration power/taunt and Wet Ice into mobile anti-mez protection. If this is the case, you really need to adjust the numbers for Glacial and Frozen armor. As it stands, I'd say that a Post Issue 5 Ice Tank has less survivability than pretty much anything but a blaster. At least blasters have damage. Honestly though. A controller can lock enemies down, a defender can heal/debuff/buff, a scrapper... well, look at the numbers. Scrappers have much higher survivability than Ice tanks do. Why would you go kick poor ice right in the jimmy when it's already handicapped? If you're thinking that it balances against the resistances of other sets.. you're wrong. Just wrong. I venture to say that you've NEVER run an Ice tank of ANY kind. Try to tank for a decent sized team with your cruddy Issue 5 numbers. Try it with a pick up group.. or a team that doesn't have any buffing to speak of. Currently, it can be done. What you're doing is forcing people to play ATs that YOU want them to play. That's just not right. As it stands, I could go and grab a few friends and we'd run whatever we wanted because there are no REQUIRED ATs currently. The only exception would be with AVs, and that's fine. Ice needs a positive overhaul. Not this garbage. Another thing that needs to be said is that you seem to assume that everyone and everything has hasten. This is untrue; I rarely give my tanks, blasters, or scrappers hasten. The only one that DOES have hasten is my Inv tank, and that's only for conserve power. Think about the bigger picture, enough with this narrow-minded, "Everyone's out to be uber" line of thought. Most of us prefer to be different and unique. Now you're taking that away from us.
50 Tankers: Ice/EM, Stone/WM, Fire/Stone, Dark/Ice, Inv/SS, Inv/Dark, Elec/Elec
50 Brutes: ElecMelee/EA, WM/Elec
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the real numbers (that's what I get for doing stuff from memory).
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with +++ SO's.
[/ QUOTE ]
Statesman, my man, how about we remove the defense totally and reduce the endurance cost to compensate? I can't imagine -anyone- including myself, slotting this power out for defense. At all. Ever. Cheers!
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the real numbers (that's what I get for doing stuff from memory).
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with +++ SO's.
17.71% Max Defence from Energy Absorbtion (not what I had earlier).
[/ QUOTE ]
So...this is so everyone else can still feel they've not been nerfed too bad, right?
"Whoa, I feel so bad now my [Instant Healing/AoE Hold/Defense/Resists] have been reduced"
"Yeah, but hey, at least we're not Ice Tankers!"
"Man yeah, I feel so sorry for those guys. We should find one and PL him to try to let him get something out of the game."
I can only assume no one at Cryptic plays Ice Tankers.
@JohnP - Victory
and does anyone seriously have any faith left in a designer that thinks 1.265% is worth even having, much less using 6 +3 SO enhancements and a power to get!
states the more you talk about these ridiculous nerfs the more you show us all how little clue you have.
If you wanna keep any shreds of credibility admit you goofed big time and roll them all back and go back to the drawing board, while you still have even that shred of credibility
In my entire time playing this game, I've seen exactly 4 ice tanks. That alone says something.
hmm it seems like what you want EA and WI to do and what the Devs want them to are diffrent things...
The devs appear to want EA's +Def to be more of a secondary effect.
same for WI
not that i know anything about the set. maybe this breaks the whole set...hell if i know
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the real numbers (that's what I get for doing stuff from memory).
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with +++ SO's.
17.71% Max Defence from Energy Absorbtion (not what I had earlier).
[/ QUOTE ]
Masked Prune feels all dried up now 
This space is intentionally left blank.
[ QUOTE ]
Adron's comments brings me to a solution I came up with to make DEf equal to RES.
The problem lies in that DEF is *subtracted* from accuracy, while RES is *multipled* against damage.
ie: Accuracy = Base - DEF, while Damage = Base * (1-RES)
I propose we change the calculation for how DEF is applied, making it:
Accuracy = Base * (1-DEF).
[/ QUOTE ]
I proposed exactly that in a thread that was purged, but a continuation of the discussion of it is here. That thread includes things like how to make Ice's defense inherently stronger than SRs, how the purple patch ought to work, how debuffs work, and what the difference is between a defense debuff and an accuracy buff. If nothing else, it might be a useful starting point for thinking about the idea.
Because I figured the odds of the devs actually changing the underlying equations for defense were slim, I proposed an alternative which adds, without altering or removing anything, an alternate form of defense that acts to give some of the flavor of this solution in a way that you can retrofit it into the existing game: elusivity.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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[ QUOTE ]
Here's the real numbers (that's what I get for doing stuff from memory).
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with +++ SO's.
17.71% Max Defence from Energy Absorbtion (not what I had earlier).
[/ QUOTE ]
Well I am guessing your not surprised by the avalanche of people posting that these numbers are "Jaw Dropping".. 
Sorry that was a bit of personal forum humor on my part, I digress.. Lots of the responses are from people that don't even play Ice Tanks...
There really isn't anything I can say that will add to the already astonished responses for the numbers you've posted. I know you guys can do better... hopefully we'll see some more realistic numbers soon...
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the real numbers (that's what I get for doing stuff from memory).
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with +++ SO's.
17.71% Max Defence from Energy Absorbtion (not what I had earlier).
[/ QUOTE ]
States, we want to see more ice tanks, not less. At this point simply fixing this set would be like adding a whole new powerset to the game. You have the ability to review the statistics on this set and see how few are being played, so what's the plan behind this?
I sincerely hope that this powerset doesn't continue to be ignored simply because it has the fewest number of players to stand up for it. I'd love to play one if only it were made fun.
I have a suggestion that could help Ice tanks.
As their defenses are clearly inferior to the other sets, they do have one ability the other do not: Slow attack speed.
To somehow balance ice's mediocre defensive ability, you could boost the attack speed slow of chilling embrace, or allow for slotting. This would help ice tanks by offering them an alternative way of damage migitation.
Torden - Lvl 50 Electric blast / Electric manipulation / Electric mastery Blaster - Triumph
General Thrax - Lvl 50 Mercenaries / Poison / Mace mastery Mastermind - Freedom
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the real numbers (that's what I get for doing stuff from memory).
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with +++ SO's.
17.71% Max Defence from Energy Absorbtion (not what I had earlier).
[/ QUOTE ]
What is impresive is that you are not adding: "This, by the way, is a bug"
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Adron's comments brings me to a solution I came up with to make DEf equal to RES.
The problem lies in that DEF is *subtracted* from accuracy, while RES is *multipled* against damage.
ie: Accuracy = Base - DEF, while Damage = Base * (1-RES)
I propose we change the calculation for how DEF is applied, making it:
Accuracy = Base * (1-DEF).
[/ QUOTE ]
I proposed exactly that in a thread that was purged, but a continuation of the discussion of it is here.
[/ QUOTE ]
Dammit, Arc, I'm tired of you being my hero. Screw up once in a while or something, wouldya?
Jack, please read his stuff or send it to one of your internal number-crunchers. It's quality.
[ QUOTE ]
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with +++ SO's.
[/ QUOTE ]
Would be better to set it at 0 defence, to not tempt people into slotting it.
If you fight a +1 boss and 6 minions, 6-slotted EA can give 19.5 defence, which is not much. And it gives ~3 in most AV battles.
Statesman, I don't play an Ice Tanker but even I can see that having the base defense at 0.5% is ludicrous. Any non-hardcore players who don't visit the forums and seek out actual numbers are going to be left completely in the dark about this and could very well slot this power with 6 defense enhancements simply because they wouldn't know better. I know you have a philosophy about players not making uniformed decisions, and this seems to be a prime example of just that.
I would highly reccomend just removing defense all together from the power and boosting another defense power in the set to compensate.
Formerly "Back Alley Brawler"
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the real numbers (that's what I get for doing stuff from memory).
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with +++ SO's.
[/ QUOTE ]
That is just silly. Either increase this by at least a factor of 10 or remove the defense entirely. And once again let me make the case for actually providing us with the numbers to all powers in game. While I understand that you have some sort of altruistic reason for not wanting to do so having things like this in the game without telling anyone is just absurd. If you are not going to hand out the numbers then making sure all reasonable slotting combinations provide approximately the same benefit is imperative, because by taking away our (and especially the casual players) ability to make informed decisions you assume the responsibility of assuring that our uninformed decision are viable.
And here we have a case where it would clearly be better to spend those slots on ANYTHING else. Five slots to get 0.765% (1.265% - 0.5%) defense is insane in any power much less a power from the primary line in a tanker set! Yet there is NO WAY in game for someone to know that slotting this power is the same thing as throwing those slots away.
[ QUOTE ]
17.71% Max Defence from Energy Absorbtion (not what I had earlier).
[/ QUOTE ]
Is this per mob or total. If it is after hitting 14 enemies then it too is insanely low, and once again without the numbers we are left to guessing... I hope you understand why we want the numbers, because whatever youre trying to do now by not having them is not working.
Hmm, this doesn't seem right at all. 0.5% defense? That's lowering an even con minion's attack percentage by 1/100th. Really, what good does that do? What good does 6 slotting that do? Nothing. It does nothing.
I completely agree with everyone else that the value should be increased, or the defense just removed from the powers (or at least don't let the powers take Defense Buff Enhancers.)
Why is EA not doing as much to slow attack speeds (STACKING!) as CE is doing?
C'mon, people! Energy in the form we're talking about is kinetic, or HEAT. The energy of MOTION. Energy Absorption by all monikers is REMOVING the energy of motion and giving it to you. Hence the defense increase, I guess, but why in gods name aren't they being slowed more?
Defense is boned for Ice Tanks. Messing with the numbers like you're doing won't fix it, cuz they're not the problem. PLEASE seriously look at some of the posts about alternate Ice tanker solutions.
Hell, I posted one about a max 20% attack reflection inherent on the armors.
Or here's a thought, we rely on and are healed by cold, right? Well, geeze, turn Permafrost into a strong version of Fast Healing. Maybe 100% base heal increase, plus it's normal wussy resistances.
And PLEASE drop the cost on Frozen Armor! My god, man, not even Dark Embrace costs that much to run, and Dark Embrace is a hell of a lot more effective for defense.
Giving EA an endurance boost ability doesn't fix power problems. What do ya do when EA's not up? What do you do before you get the magic thing? Nothing, you're boned unless you slot exactly as I've ALWAYS slotted Ice. With at least two Reductions in EVERY armor and Chilling Embrace.
So if ya want to actually have power to do more than sit there and twitch between EA's, you're forced even more subpar for Defense just to get your end recovery per second barely back above the baseline. And that's with a sixed Stamina.
Ice tankers: Too expensive, too fragile, too weak on status effects, but they make a pretty frozen sculpture all dead and trussed up for the AV's Anonymous buffet table.
P.S. I've played Ice tanks three separate times now. Every single time a new issue comes out I get excited, see nothing's been done to help em out at all, get disgusted and then make a Scrapper. I WANT to play an Ice TANKER, when will you guys actually LET me? My first "real" character was an Icer. That means I've been trying to play this borked up set for as long as I've been here. Never yet been successful or happy with it beyond level 24. Dying five times on a TV respec run when you're running an optimized Ice tanker and have a knowledgable team is NOT kosher. I built that sucker the best I could get with Board advice, and he still got spanked like a redheaded stepchild. I can get most other tankers to 32 in two or three weeks pre I5. Ice can't even tank four +1s safely on Test. I got HAMMERED when I tried one Lt. and three minions. All they're currently good for is sinking DiCaprio and Winslett, or running away.
"Perhaps it would confuse the rabbit if we ran away some more!"
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Using the numbers from Circeus I came up with my own analysis of Ice and Inv. These are his effective numbers which include a crowd of foes and full enhancements:
As an Ice tanker you get:
44% of the Inv def for S/L
44% of the Inv def for Energy
44% of the Inv def for Negative
13% of the Inv def for Cold
13% of the Inv def for Fire
0% of the Inv res for S/L
0% of the Inv res for Energy
0% of the Inv res for Negative
88% of the Inv res for Fire
72% of the Inv res for Toxic
As an Inv tanker you only get:
40% of the Ice res for Cold
The Inv tanker is grossly superior to the Ice tanker in everything but Cold RES. The Inv tanker even beats the Ice tanker in DEF !!!! The entire reason for zero or low RES on Ice was the DEF should compensate. But, if I got the numbers right, the Ice tanker takes a backseat to the Inv tanker in DEF too. To make it worse, Inv beats Ice in DEF by a large amount. So if Ice can't get some good RES values because of it's high DEF, then tell me why Inv gets high RES values AND it gets high DEF?
I'm one of the few who doesn't think all sets should be equal but a set should have SOME advantage to distinguish it. Superior Ice RES is not even close to being an advantage.
I won't even begin to address whether or not the Ice tanker can do his job. I'll leave that alone.
I should note that I play an Inv tanker that I really enjoy so I have a vested interest in protecting Inv. But this latest "technical scramble to balance things" is so poorly thought out that I find myself trying to help the Ice tanker cause. Why? Because I'd like to defend Cryptic on it's other decisions in I5, but this one is so far off that I don't think I can have faith in your decisions, or your visions, anymore. Which is sad because I will be joining the negative doomsayers who I try so very hard to discourage.
If you had the time I think you should trash the entire DEF thing and change it to RES. So instead of getting a DEF buff for each target you get a RES buff. Then give Ice some minor base RES like 20% to just survive.
Wow, is this thread depressing or what?
I appreciate that Statesman speaks from the cuff without an editor, it truly makes one feel that what we say matters. And I know that he has apologized for stating these are bonuses for the Ice Tank, but it really does show the mentality that is put forth for the Ice Tanker, nobody plays them so it's easier just to make generic changes and say that they benefit the Ice Tanker so we will quit crying.
Again, like so many have said, these changes are for everyone so everyone still has the same bases, so we are Exactly in the same spot as we were before. Mind you the bad guys now have a less chance of hitting everyone.
These changes make life for the AT's that are defence based slight easier... but it makes everyone elses life easier as well.
These are not for the benefit Ice Tankers.
We then get... "well thats not all we are looking at" ... because we admit none of these changes are actually for the crappiest tank out there right now.... we just don't know what or if anything else we will change... which really means... hey they won't hit you as much for now... so... suck it up, we might change Permafrost so it doesn't completely blow, but it will be our gift too you, maybe, ah if we can squeeze it in for I5.
The numbers for Wet Ice.. wow... I didn't know that... Level 39 Ice Tanker here who has it 6 slotted... don't I look dumb 
. Guess I better use that free Respec before I5.
Finally EA, I love the End drain effects and it was too strong... but wow.. you smacked the crap outta that power with your nerf bat man... clear outta the park, just like you had.. hmmm.. superpowers (obviously not an ice tanker)... the worst part though.... is that too actually get some use for this power.... haha or to max out the defence a whole 17% we need 14 guys soooooo ... we need to HERD!!!!!!!! no 3 to 1 bad guy schema or so called vision... but we are being encouraged or even forced to actually HERD!!!!!
Wow, talk about inconsistencies here. This is very very odd. I'm lost, should I just give up on this toon or just give up on the game?
Thanks
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the real numbers (that's what I get for doing stuff from memory).
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with +++ SO's.
17.71% Max Defence from Energy Absorbtion (not what I had earlier).
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not an Ice Tanker but I can tell that 0.5% defense is worthless. Even fully slotted as you suggest, this number is small enough that nobody call tell whether its on or off without some serious tracking program.
I would request that any feature of any power, worth less than 5%, simply be taken out of the power -- or at least left out of its description. I don't want to take the power for the wrong reasons, and benefits under 5% are insignificant to anyone except the number-crunchers.
I do thank you, though, for providing some hard numbers!
Circeous, please check and see what you get by comparing the issue IV ice to the issue V invulnerability. You understand the spreadsheet better. I may have made an error here. This is just plain silly.
Just for fun I plugged the Issue IV numbers for Ice into the spreadsheet. Guess what... Invul still wins for everything but Ice. Even if ice were left alone it would stay at the bottom of the heap. Why does Ice need these nerfs?
Will a red name please explain? I am a bit confused here.
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the real numbers (that's what I get for doing stuff from memory).
Wet Ice
0.5% base
1.265% Defence from Wet Ice with ++ SO's.
17.71% Max Defence from Energy Absorbtion (not what I had earlier).
[/ QUOTE ]
You are getting closer to clarity, but you could you please -specificy- how you are talking about EA? Is that the full 6 slotted ++ SO when used on 14 targets, or 1 target? or what?
I think putting a def bonus that small on WI is a joke, and utterly pointless - please just remove it all together rather than insult is with something too small to slot.
If 17% is the max def for EA.....that puts us at ~50% defense to sm/leth/en/neg ASSUMING we have 14 targets around us at all times (which should not be happening with all the new anti-herding junk, correct?). This is not enough to tank +1s, let alone +2s and +3s which will turn up in large team missions, TFs, etc.
Please consider:
a) putting EA back to the 5 target max,
b) upping the defense to around 4% per target (assuming a 5 max) unslotted (giving 44% assuming 6 def sos and max targets - an improbable slotting).
c) maybe moving EA much earlier in the set - with the WI nerf we have no way to tank clocks, etc as has been mentioned by numerous posters. Hit Points alone are not enough.
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