As an SR and up-and-coming ice tanker, the biggest problem I've seen is streaks. As we fight above our levels, the odds of a streak really climb a lot. When it happens to a +res character, they just need more healing. But when it happens to a +def character, they die. Since larger groups tend to fight higher level mobs, these sets (SR, ICE) tend to die more.
What I would suggest is something similar to blaster's defiance, but for defense: as SR and ICE health falls below 40% (or whatever), they gain increasing amounts of defense. It need not be as extreme as the blaster damage increase, but it would be nice to see SR & ICE hanging on by the skin of their teeth rather than dying.
-Jeff
how about adding a -recharge to some Ice armors when mobs hit them to slow the rate of attack of monsters so they hit less offen...that might help...a little...
+res should too
oo oo how about making some +DEF powers not "stack" per say...makeing each one a diffrent check to hit.
so if someone attacks you with S/L they have to make a check aganst base def +pool + Frozen Armor and then another check aganst base + pool + EA
(this could work for SR with Melee/range/AoE haveing to go through the pasive then the active, and maybe elude if its on)
if it fails against any of them it doesin't hit
...just a thought
now im not an Ice tank but i just thought i would add my two inf in. hope it helps
States, People are complaining about the imbalance between the tanker primaries and scrapper secondaries.
Your Changes annouced so far has been to buff INV, and to indirectly Buff EVERY characters Def.
This means that ICE and SR are STILL not balanced against other defenses.
In short, these acc reductions should have been done anyway, but this in no way helps ICE or SR compete with their RES or Regen Friends.
Before Issue #5 you acknowledged that ICE and SR needed help, your response was to NERF the DEF sets harder then any other set. what is the deal with that ?
Why was Fire largely left alone when it was already seen as one of the most powerful tanker sets ?
Why can Sonic Defenders add 77% RES to a character, dont you see that as beeing too high in the new scheme of things ?
If it had to be done this way, im okay with that, but for the life of me i cannot work out a consistent theory behind these changes.
Thanks for starting this thread for ice tanks States. Also, a big thank you to Circeus for his tireless efforts for all of my cold brethren. That being said, I still don't get it. This all works fine for anything lower than a Monster or Arch-Villain. Naturally, I don't want to be hit every time from an AV, but more than anything I don't want to be killed in one-shot. I have been one-shotted several times now and I don't think it is fun. I'm a tank and I feel like I should attempt to join in when fighting AVs and Monsters. Most of them seem to have ridiculous amounts of damage associated with their attacks. This obviously seems to be the case to overcome very high damage resistance. What it doesn't account for is the one-shotting. Sure, we have hibernate, but how is that fun? We can sit in our protective little igloo and watch the battle just like we can sit back and watch. I want to be involved in these epic fights because after all, aren't AVs and Monsters the big bad guys that we are here to stop?
Basically, this all comes down to what is fun. Frankly, I don't find jumping into a battle and taking a dirt nap in one hit very fun at all. I did send you a PM quite a while back, States to lower AV damage and then make a percentage of their attack unresistable. I'm not sure that is the way to go anymore with all of the I5 changes.
One-shotting remains my biggest concern with Ice Tanks. I love playing them except when I have to face AVs and Monsters (which is a lot in the 40+ game.)
On a side note, many have been suggesting lately to drop permafrost from the powerset and move hibernate down a spot. Then give us something for our level 32 power that will allow us to take part in AV battles. Hibernate takes us out of the battle completely. Is there something that you can substitute in for us to help solve this issue?
If not, why do you feel one-shotting is good for the game? I could understand taking on much higher level AVs and they dispatch of us very easily. The problem is that these are AVs that spawn on our missions and they are on par with our level.
I can start naming AVs/Monsters that have one-shotted me if you want.
Another great idea that people have mentioned is the idea of a damage debuff aura. Basically, the idea is to make an aura around the ice tank (which benefits the team as well) that will lower damage from enemies. The cold air will slow their attacks thus lowering the damage from them. (Don't think attack rate, but rather slowing their kinetic motion when they do attack.) This would finally give us a place on teams as well. Anyone can match or exceed our defense by using purple inspirations. We need something else to make us useful to a team.
I feel like we already had enough weaknesses (psi, fire, toxic (toxic resistance is on a slow recharging heal power?), defense debuffs on us, accuracy buffs on enemies, auto hits, alpha strikes) before I5.
I don't mind a challenge, but I would like to participate.
Thanks,
Snorii
PS If anyone cares to read it, I think there is a ton of good information in the locked Why Change Energy Absorption thread about ice tankers and our issues.
The Dark Blade
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Paragon Wiki
This is all good, but what I want to know is - how does this help the Ice tanker survive AV one-shots when that 5% hit ratio comes up? Or even getting nailed by a couple of bosses that both get lucky at once? I still don't see any resistances anywhere.
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Once, twice, three times the thank yous.
For a place. For the acc changes. And for the shout out to me.
The Acc changes are nice... but they're only a start, as they also leave some issues still in place that I'd like to see addressed (specifically regarding accuracy) - each of which are strongly exacerbated by the changes on test:
1) Swarms (both regular and Devouring Swarms) need either a lower Accuracy, a lower rate of attack, or quite possibly both. They're a pet/underling. And yet, because of Taunt Aura's and Punchvoke they will stick on a Tanker like glue, and not let up in a most unrelenting fashion. They need to be reigned in big time.
This is a huge issue for DEF only since they have no way of naturally toning down the damage leaving either Tough or Health as the only ways out. This is more an issue for younger Ice Tankers. Chilling Embrace's Slow doesn't much cut into their attack rate, but its what attracts them, and yet you can't exactly turn it off, since you need it on to help protect you from other things around you.
2) Auto-hit aura's on AVs have got to go (e.g., the Envoy of Shadows). Without anything sitting behind DEF, these powers basically negate any defenses for an Ice Tanker leaving them soft and squishy. Again the only real way to help with them is Health.
3) Mobs that can buff each other's Accuracy or debuff DEF seem to have strong abilities in this area. Devouring Earth Quartz Beacons are a great example, as they seem to impart at least +100% Accuracy to other DE. I did notice that the length of time that Nemesis Vengeance lasts seems to be shorter on Test server right now, which is a big boon here. More changes like this need to come.
4) Base PvP Accuracy is 75%. This means that from the get-go an Ice Tankers Defenses are nullified come I5. Not to mention that 1 Accuracy Enhancer will cap that Accuracy for a non-AoE power. Weapon draw sets get +5% Accuracy. The prevalence of BuildUp, Aim, Focused Accuracy, etc. A DEF based melee set is utterly crippled in PvP. It'd be nice to know if this is going to be addressed somehow.
*****
Now I'd like to dive to other Ice Tanker issues. Many of which were covered in my PM to you, but I'd like to see them answered publically.
For starters... currently on the Test Server Ice Tankers look like this (base values):
Frozen Armor: 15% DEF Smash/Lethal, 30% RES Cold, 10% RES Fire
Wet Ice: negligible DEF, 30% RES Cold
Glacial Armor: 15% DEF Energy/Negative, 30% RES Cold
Energy Absorption: negligible DEF
Permafrost: 20% RES Cold, 10% RES Fire
Hoarfrost: 20% RES Toxic
Max slotted for DEF/RES as appropriate that leaves us at:
33% DEF Smash/Lethal
33% DEF Energy/Negative
134% RES Cold (90% RES Cold w/out Permafrost)
32% RES Fire (10% RES Fire w/out Permafrost)
20% RES Toxic (due to slotting concerns Hoarfrost doesn't get slotted for RES by 99% of people who have it)
So based on this I have a number of questions:
0) Why were Ice Tankers, who were clearly on the bottom of the Tanker barrel to begin with, having been on par with Invuln Scrappers defensively, hit so hard for this Issue?
1) Was the Slow Resistance fixed on Wet Ice? The patch note only mentions fixing it for Energy Absorption, and yet on live Wet Ice has the same bug.
2) Why is Wet Ice no longer offering a measurable amount of DEF? Is this intentional? If not, what can we expect here in the future in the way of DEF?
3) Question (2) but sub "Wet Ice" with "Energy Absorption"?
4) Is this the face of Ice Tankers going forward defensively? You've put us into a range defensively where we're only maginally better than an SR Scrapper (our base DEFs are slightly higher, but their DEF is total coverage, whereas ours is not). And when they pop Elude they end up with a much higher DEF than our totals.
This means our defenses are down in the low end of Scrapper range for I5, and yet we are not being subsequently provided with a compensation for this - Scrappers get their damage, what do we get as Ice Tankers?
5) Can you please! please! please! do something with Permafrost? It just sits there, and because its highly redundant with the RES in our other Armors it ends up not being taken by a large majority of Ice Tankers.
There are two things I could see you doing here:
a) Remove Permafrost completely, then either replace it with something new and exciting, and attractive, OR slide the powers that come after it down one tier (Icicles, Glacial Armor, Energy Absorption, and Hibernate). This would make room for a more exiting and melee oriented power at level 32 (more on this below).
b) Make Permafrost more attractive. Add Toxic RES to it (in addition to what's on Hoarfrost). Maybe throw in some Smashing/Lethal RES so we don't have to pool dive for Tough (a situation that the Test Server changes don't make any less necessary). How about Psi Resistance (the mind is as densly cold as the body).
6) If we are to have such a strong weakness to Fire, why must Ice Tankers also be weak towards Psi? And please don't answer this with more than "Psi is the Tanker weakness", because we both know that Stone Tanks get Psi defenses. Also please don't try to tell me that Chilling Embrace covers this, we both know Psi attacks are all ranged, and CE is a melee range effect on foes.
7) Can Chilling Embrace please be changed to not take level into account when affecting higher (or lower) level foes? It just falls off too rapidly to be as useful as its supposed to be. Even on a heroic mission with other teammates you can see mobs as high as +2, and that 25% drops down to 20% by that point, so it ends up not being as "equivalent" to RES as it should be.
8) If Chilling Embrace is really intended as a RES substitute (which is something I've always felt it was supposed to be), then can it please get a larger AoE for Tankers, to potentially affect more at range. Right now since it only affects melee range, its offers no protection at range at all.
9) The Hibernate lunch list:
a) Can it please not turn off any powers.
b) Can we please be able to turn on powers while using it.
c) In the advent that you choose to leave it the level 32 power, can you make it more melee friendly? Perhaps a Taunt Radius? an AoE "Bitter Frost" that causes a slow like Chilling Embrace? Or maybe just let Chilling Embrace work while its active?
d) Its nice that it heals, but there's no way to make that heal avaialble often enough to be of great use. The best recharge you can eck out of it is 16s and that requires perma-Hasten and 6 recharge enhancements. As most Ice Tanker deaths occur in the span of 5-10 seconds, that recharge time will never be fast enough. It basically has to be useful all the time more or less.
10) Cut the End cost of Icicles by at least half. The 1.5 EPS that it is on live is just way too high.
11) Why doesn't Glacial Armor (E/N DEF) protect vs Rikti Swords (S/E damage)? (please say bug!!!)
12) Despite all the Accuracy changes listed above, this does not at all address the fact that attacks performed by AVs and Monsters are designed to kill characters with capped or very high RES. There are some AVs who have attacks that can one shot a full green health bar of Hoarfrosted health. This has to go. You need to either reign in the attacks of AVs and Monsters to reasonable levels, or you need to provide a means whereby DEF based builds (Ice Tanks and SR Scrappers) do not get one-shot killed. Melee classes have defense, but vs large attacks DEF withouth RES is quite meaningless. And there's nothing a healer or anyone else on your team can do to alleviate this - except perhaps some RES buffs from an SB or Dark Defender, but to say we have to get those all the time is ludicrous. A real solution needs to be provided.
*****
In short, I mostly just want to know what we can expect in the way of actually being made to look like Tankers again? Because right now, on test, we don't look like much of anything anyone would ever want to play or play with.
Thank you for your time.
[ QUOTE ]
I've seen more than a few people crying for Ice Tankers to have their own place to give feedback.
[/ QUOTE ]
you never fail to impress, states.
Dawnslayer on Virtue.
So these are global changes? Because that's not what I believe we're asking for. Sure, it helps Ice Tanks. It also helps everyone else.
If it's not global, then it's still nice, but even if an AV hits you even less often than before, he still only needs to do it once.
Defense doesn't scale like resist. That seems to be the central problem. If you have defense, you can be one-shotted more easily than someone with resistance.
Also, Ice tanks have long complained that Permafrost is a useless power. Is there anything that could be put there which would help the defense and one-shotting problem?
What do other Ice tanks think about the idea of giving Ice an HP bonus. Either linked to the armors you've got running or just a boost in general. Higher HP means more likely to survive an AV or Monster, yes? If we're not ever going to get some smashing/lethal resistance, would an HP hike make up for the difference?
It would be really nice to get an up or down on Wet Ice and Energy Absorb. Our numbers show them to be providing no meaningful defense. So....uh...States, are they (on test) "working as intended"?
[ QUOTE ]
I've seen more than a few people crying for Ice Tankers to have their own place to give feedback.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nice ::rolls eyes::
More then a place to post I think that what we (At least me) were asking for was the damn numbers to defense that we are suppoused to be working/testing.
Anyways, nice to see those changes... Not quite sure why you guys didn't do that before, but whatever.
But to be honest I'm not quite sure if we can call that a victory or what. The truth is that with the changes to Ice Armor we can't even cap even level minions by six slotting our defenses, how are we suppoused to be tanking bosses or AVs? By having a pocket Force Field or Sonic with us at all times? Sending the blaster 1st so they can take the alpha strike like you suggest to do? All very unrealistic tactics.
And you can lower everyone's accuracy to 40%, that doesn't change the fact that Ice Tanker are the ones with the most defensive holes out there.
One last thing: Not that I'm not happy for the changes or the fact that you guys are acknowledging our precense... The problem is that I5 is bringing a bunch of poor solutions to a bunch of old problem that can't be stopped by nerfing the hell out of everybody (Including the villains). The problem is that you guys are nerfing everybody just to stop a few "bad apples" from "exploiting" the system... In fact with the introduction of I5 you're going to intensify those problems.
I understand that at first a mob accuracy lowering might be a nice way to counteract a nerf of the ice primary, but it has a lot of wholes. First is that like someone said, all other tank primaries benefit from this as well, so no real balance is obtained here.
Also, this method of balancing out the defensive sets is completely destroying balance in PvP. i understand that not everyone likes the arena, but as it was in I4, it was quite hard to make defense work better then resists. In I5, defense is almost guaranteed to be completely useless.
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Dexter Labrynth (SS/FA Brute)
Former member of Tribute and Victory Reborn
Thanks for listening.
This is a crazy idea, what if ice armor had a 3rd type of armor. Could it make damage into Damage over time, delay the damage???
50% instant and 5 10% ticks ....
This give us all the damage we deserve 
and a little time to react to a LARGE shot like an AVs...
I am just a crazy old fool, with a 48 ice/ice tank.
Some great posts, keep it one topic
Thank States
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Statesman,
First off, some unpleasantries; Paying subscribers requesting acknowledgment of issues and soliciting feedback is no where in the same vicinity as crying. That was either a very unfortunate choice of words, or people who give you $180/year are being overtly insulted. Do us a favor and make your meaning clear so we can make informed decisions as to where we go from here with our gaming dollar. With that out of the way
The accuracy decreases, while globally beneficial for many ATs does little to nothing for resolving some long standing Ice Tanker issues (i.e. 14+ months).
One Shot Kills from damage scaled to harm better performing tanker primaries
Higher endurance cost from Primary line than better performing tanker lines (partially addressed by I-5 EA)
Only Tankers who have to contend with the Random Number Generator as their number one threat above and beyond the enemy who needs arresting.
The following is a copy and paste from an earlier thread discussing tanker fixers in general and includes some Ice Tank feedback from subscribers. This thread is located in the Tanker forum: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...o=&fpart=1
Toshis Ice Tank Suggestions:
What do I want? More than 30% defense vs. all but fire and psi. I want my primary to count for more than a luck and discipline inspiration cocktail. I would like to not get 1 or 2 shot by the AVs and Monsters that Tankers are supposed to tank. I want to pay for and enjoy the same content as other tankers.
Disclaimer: These are ideas that I have been kicking around for some time now, most of which are a direct result of our Ice Tank communitys excellent feedback and input. These are in extreme draft form and only ideas that would require testing and your excellent, constructive feedback.
Some basics:
Permafrost is a prime candidate for retooling and/or replacement. Consider it a placeholder for any of these powers.
Messing with CE is a bad idea IMO. It is currently a very beneficial power. Replacing the slow with another effect takes away from the Ice Tank flavor. Adding another effect to CE would be an invitation for yet another Ice tank nerf.
I am personally shooting for any ONE of the following (not all).
Power Name: Arctic Field
Description: AE damage debuff centered on the Ice Tank, reducing damage taken by the ice tank, and possibly some team members. This helps to address damage taken by +Accuracy, Monsters, AVs. One shot kills might possibly be addressed, depending on debuff value.
Animation: Dependant on AE size. If a large size is deemed balanced we could re-color Enervating Field or Choking cloud with blue and white tones. If a small field size is selected, a re-coloring of CE to different shades of blue, white, or maybe even red could be used for the effect. A tame animation, such as Invincibility re-colored to Ices palette would also be suitable.
Specifications: Power would operate in a manner similar to Enervating Field without the resistance debuff (i.e. mobs do not take more damage). Net result would be a 20-30% off the top reduction of all non-psi damage. Endurance cost values of .5 1.0 EPS. Radius, Debuff Value, and EPS should all be tweaked and tested by the Ice Tank community.
Since Damage debuff is not eligible for enhancement, the debuff metric could not be changed by the player. Future adjustments to the power due to heavy slotting would not be a concern.
This power could easily replace Permafrost. Almost all of the code needed for the power could be recycled from other powers (EF, CE). Animation recycling and re-coloring is a path of least resistance and would reduce the time to implement such a solution.
Power Name: Snow Sheath
Description: Ablative Armor. Ice Tank gets x# of temporary hit points. Damage taken after defense calculations are taken from this pool of hit points. Design goal is to prevent one shot kills and improve the Ice tanks survivability vs. +Acc, Monsters, AVs and the natural 20 dice roll.
Animation: Recommend no animation due to Ice tank cluttering. If an animation is desired, a re-coloring of rooted from the Stone primary would be quick to implement.
Specifications: Power would be a click buff on a reasonable timer. When activated the Ice Tank would have an HP buffer of around 30% Base HP. Any non-psi damage taken would come from this pool first.
Values of 20/30/40% of base HP should be tested. Recharge is recommended to be permeable with Hasten and/or multiple recharge SOs, due to the length of most Monster or AV fights.
Power Name: Arctic Core
Description: Damage Coefficient. The Ice Tank would have a damage coefficient that prevents any single hit from doing more than a fixed percentage of the Ice Tankers Base HP. The goal is enhanced survivability vs. AVs, Monsters, +Accuracy mobs and to prevent one shot kills. This power would not be readily exploitable in a herding capacity as very few, if any, minions are able to generate the damage numbers required to take a large percentage of a tankers HP in one shot.
Animation: None Required, passive power.
Specifications: Passive power, replacing Permafrost. Power states that no single hit can do more than x% of an Ice Tanks base HP. Recommended value is 33%, but values anywhere between 20% - 60% of base HP should all be tested. Note Psi damage is not applicable in this design draft as it is an Achilles Heal that almost all tankers contend with. Topic of psi is open to debate.
For example an Ice Tank has 2000hp at his current security level. The tank is struck by a S/L/En/Ne/F damage attack that would normally kill the tanker outright or reduce his HP total to a level where the next hit by just about anything kills the tank. With a Damage Coefficient in place, that hit can do no more than 33% of the Tank's 2000hp and is reduced down to 660 points of damage. A very stout hit, but not a one shot kill.
Values would need to be tested, especially with Perma-Hoarfrost. Aside from the obvious benefit of damage mitigation and removal of the One Shot Ice Tank kill, Artic Core has a dev-friendly side effect.
AC does not promote herding as most minions/LTs/Bosses are incapable of generating the type of damage that would be required to exceed the coefficient in a single hit. Groups of +1/2/3/4 mobs would still hit for their normal damage, thus mass numbers of mobs still pose a grave threat to the Ice Tanker through the 5% auto-hit or the Random Number Generator. Promoting herding is a bad idea and this power steers clear of such promotion entirely.
Bottom Line, my negative feelings expressed in the preamble not withstanding; Ice Tankers pay for and do in fact deserve to enjoy the same content as better performing or favored Tank Primaries.
In the short term: Please provide feedback regarding the current zero-defense state of Wet Ice and Energy Absorption on Test.
In the other short, i.e. not long term: Make Ice Tank repairs an action item. Dont just pay it lip service; let your actions speak for you (unless the 33% defense has already.) The numbers are there. The feedback has been here for multiple months, now going on multiple quarters. Your subscribers pay for and do in fact deserve to enjoy equal content. That is not happening now with Ice Primary.
No tears were shed or any other activity resembling crying observed during this post.
TTR
[ QUOTE ]
I've seen more than a few people crying for Ice Tankers to have their own place to give feedback. And since we've already planned to change Unyielding some, a few think we're ignoring Ice in favor of Invulnerabilty. So I wanted to start this thread.
Here's a couple of changes coming that I think will help:
Reduced Accuracy of Minion level Turrets from 75% to 58%.
Reduced Accuracy of Lieutenant level Turrets from 94% to 65%.
Reduced Accuracy of Boss level Turrets from 113% to 75%.
Reduced Accuracy of Snipers from 75% to 65%.
Reduced Accuracy of Archvillains from 90% to 75%.
Reduced Accuracy of Giant Monsters from 90% to 75%.
Reduced Accuracy of Monument Minions from 75% to 58%.
Reduced Accuracy of Rularuu Bosses from 90% to 75%.
BIG thanks to Circeus, for his tireless devotion to all that is Ice Tankerish. Hip hip hooray!
PLEASE keep the discussion limited to Ice Tankers. Anything else will be removed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Scanning post for changes to Ice Tankers.
Still scanning.
Still....scanning.
Oh, wait, is the villian ACC nerf supposed to be a bone thrown to Ice Tankers?
*boogle*
So, let me process this: instead of making villians smarter and more dangerous, in addition to nerfs to tankers (and other classes...I ain't forgettin' anyone), you're nerfing villians to compensate for player nerfs. Can someone tell me how this makes any sense? Instead of giving poor ice tanks a little love, just a wee bit, they've nerfed bad guy accuracy.
Wow. Just wow. I can't WAIT for Infernal, Bobcat, Tyrant et al. to visit the boards and threaten to cancel their accounts. Can't say I blame them.
[ QUOTE ]
33% DEF Smash/Lethal
33% DEF Energy/Negative
[/ QUOTE ]
Note that this is six-slotted for defense. And also running wet ice, and possibly chilling embrace or icicles at any given time while tanking for a team, the endurance involved here is prohibitive - assuming you want to attack at all.
With the new change to EA being that it buffs your endurance INSTEAD of defense, as seems to be the case on test, I may now slot this for 6 defense buffs, instead of 5 defense buffs / 1 end reducer, but I haven't made up my mind yet.
Either way, I still have to six slot Stamina to avoid panting my way through jobs.
But the point is, for the massive endurance cost involved, The most +def ice armor provides is that you can get from a Good Luck inspiration. And it has holes, big holes. Why is it that any character can go fill up on enough purple pills at 50 influence a pop to complete any mission, and have the effective +def of an ice tanker?
I actually did this on a few missions on test with my ice tanker. Sure, +25% defense from lucks isn't as good as +33% defense from a good luck, but since it ALSO gives me defense to the THREE GLARING HOLES in my armors, the net result is more overall protection.
You know, +33% def to only four damage types versus +25% def to all seven (since it's non-specific +def, it avoids the 'we haven't bothered to code toxic defense since we introduced it in issue 2 or 3 or whatever' problem, and the psionic damage problem, and the fire damage problem).
By stocking up on purple pills as I go (burning off other inspirations as I found them) I could keep going quite a while before I had to hit a contact and stock up. At, coincidentally, about the same rate I would need to stop and sell enhancements.
This seemed to involve a lot more micro-management of my defenses, but it was just as viable. As such, in order to make ice tankers not massive end hogs that only have the benefit of a melee slow and extra hit points above what amounts to a luck inspiration, something needs to change from what you've got on test.
Solution 1: Fix Ice Tankers. You've got to give them enough defense to floor an even-leveled minion. At least. This will let them do their missions, on HEROIC, without getting hit 1/5 of the time for full damage. Unless it's a fire or psi or toxic attack, I suppose, at which point their getting hit 1/2 of the time, and then only have negligible or no resistance to the successful hit.
I was running missions on heroic on test, and was getting beat up MORE than I was on invincible on 'live'. And this just tanking for ONE person. Unless that one person is a defender or controller, there's no way an ice tank can do their job under these conditions. Well, I guess there is, but it depends on what the tanker's secondary is.
I was trying to leave ice patch out of this since it's an ice melee power, and not ice armor. Though I still believe this power should be in the ice armor primary, and that's a discussion for another day.
Solution 2: Build some +res inspirations. Let the ice tanker do the same thing any other character can do to duplicate their lousy +def (as it stands on test) with resistance. Worried about being one-shot by that AV? Pop a 'rugged' inspiration or whatever you want to call it. Problem? Problem solved.
Sure that AV will hit you for damage that can one-shot you about 1/2 of the time (75% acc - 33% def if you're lucky enough to get one that uses the four attacks you have +def for) - but you've got +res pills now!
Solution 3: NERF DEFENSE INSPIRATIONS. That's right, you heard me. Aside from fortitude (which I feel unfairly avoided being reduced in the name of this 'global' change, and where's the BALANCE in that?), defense inspirations completely avoided this round of 'global' defense reductions.
Minimally, lower them by the same rate that all the other +Def powers seem to have taken a hit. I don't honestly know exactly how far these have been lowered, as reports seem to vary, but make it so you have to take the really BIG purple pills to match the defenses of the +DEF TANKER.
You can only get those by fighting really tough enemies, or doing Kora fruit jobs, after all. And neither of those solutions are dependable -unless you farm the fruit farming jobs, I guess. But... why? You'd still have to use them to get through the job, especially with rulaaruarru having such huge accuracy (which is taking a hit somewhat, I s'pose).
Solution 4: I guess just leave Ice Armor as is, but you have to rename it. I've read elsewhere that as the lead designer, you want players to make informed decisions about their characters and subsequent power choices. So I propose you change ice armor's name as follows:
Make it "Status Protection and Extra Health Plus Good Luck Inspirations, -Fire, -Psi, -Toxic, With More Endurance Problems Than Any Other Tanker" If you change the name such, players will know that if they really want to defend their teammates as a TANKER, they'll pick something else.
This saves you a lot of work, after all! This way you only have to balance three tanker primaries instead of four. Though I guess it's not like anything has been done to improve ice tankers or their laundry list of problems since the game was released, save for the stacking armors.
Oh, and making EA a joke in issue 4. "Infininte Defense", indeed.
[ QUOTE ]
I've seen more than a few people crying for Ice Tankers to have their own place to give feedback. And since we've already planned to change Unyielding some, a few think we're ignoring Ice in favor of Invulnerabilty. So I wanted to start this thread.
Here's a couple of changes coming that I think will help:
Reduced Accuracy of Minion level Turrets from 75% to 58%.
Reduced Accuracy of Lieutenant level Turrets from 94% to 65%.
Reduced Accuracy of Boss level Turrets from 113% to 75%.
Reduced Accuracy of Snipers from 75% to 65%.
Reduced Accuracy of Archvillains from 90% to 75%.
Reduced Accuracy of Giant Monsters from 90% to 75%.
Reduced Accuracy of Monument Minions from 75% to 58%.
Reduced Accuracy of Rularuu Bosses from 90% to 75%.
BIG thanks to Circeus, for his tireless devotion to all that is Ice Tankerish. Hip hip hooray!
PLEASE keep the discussion limited to Ice Tankers. Anything else will be removed.
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Yeah I'm sure Circeus was a big help there States, after all, you totally addressed his concerns. /sigh
Maybe its better if you just don't post anything, if you think this is helping Ice Tankers, that isn't very reassuring.
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I've seen more than a few people crying for Ice Tankers to have their own place to give feedback. And since we've already planned to change Unyielding some, a few think we're ignoring Ice in favor of Invulnerabilty. So I wanted to start this thread.
Here's a couple of changes coming that I think will help:
Reduced Accuracy of Minion level Turrets from 75% to 58%.
Reduced Accuracy of Lieutenant level Turrets from 94% to 65%.
Reduced Accuracy of Boss level Turrets from 113% to 75%.
Reduced Accuracy of Snipers from 75% to 65%.
Reduced Accuracy of Archvillains from 90% to 75%.
Reduced Accuracy of Giant Monsters from 90% to 75%.
Reduced Accuracy of Monument Minions from 75% to 58%.
Reduced Accuracy of Rularuu Bosses from 90% to 75%.
BIG thanks to Circeus, for his tireless devotion to all that is Ice Tankerish. Hip hip hooray!
PLEASE keep the discussion limited to Ice Tankers. Anything else will be removed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Let me start by saying im not a Ice/Fill in the blank Tank but I have to put the question , "How does this specificially help Ice Tanks?!? Not to insult you States but this looks like a fix for everyone not just the Ice Tanks. Im sure the Ice tanks dont like there intelligence insulted and unfortunantly this does, however it is nice they can voice there concern in there own thread.
TO be fair, this is appreciated.
However, it doesn't even come close to addressing Ice Tanker concerns.
1) Why is Wet Ice no longer giving any DEF?
2) Why is Energy Absorption no longer giving any DEF?
Between those, you've completely crippled Ice tankers. I can barely manage my own missions, let alone tank for a decent team unless I'm loaded up with FBubbles and SBubbles.
3) Why has the Permafrost issue not been addressed (on the same vein, Temp Protection)? No power should be useless. Permafrost is. Replace it with something better. Ideally, dropping it, moving everything above down a slot, and giving us a useful L32 power would be best. That way, Ice Tankers can get their 'signature' power (Energy Aborption) at 18 like Fiery Aura does with Burn and Invulnerability does with Invicibility.
4) Why is Icicles do damnably expensive? It's easily the most expensive Aura, for no adequately explained reason. For Fnord's sake, be consistent! And why doesn't it do cold damage instead of the oft-resisted Lethal?
5) If tanker powersets are supposed to be (roughly) 133% of the scrapper, shouldn't Ice Tankers have far higher DEF?
Honestly, your fix is like putting a bandaid on a scratched finger while ignoring a sucking chest wound.
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Once, twice, three times the thank yous.
For a place. For the acc changes. And for the shout out to me.
The Acc changes are nice... but they're only a start, as they also leave some issues still in place that I'd like to see addressed (specifically regarding accuracy) - each of which are strongly exacerbated by the changes on test:
1) Swarms (both regular and Devouring Swarms) need either a lower Accuracy, a lower rate of attack, or quite possibly both. They're a pet/underling. And yet, because of Taunt Aura's and Punchvoke they will stick on a Tanker like glue, and not let up in a most unrelenting fashion. They need to be reigned in big time.
This is a huge issue for DEF only since they have no way of naturally toning down the damage leaving either Tough or Health as the only ways out. This is more an issue for younger Ice Tankers. Chilling Embrace's Slow doesn't much cut into their attack rate, but its what attracts them, and yet you can't exactly turn it off, since you need it on to help protect you from other things around you.
2) Auto-hit aura's on AVs have got to go (e.g., the Envoy of Shadows). Without anything sitting behind DEF, these powers basically negate any defenses for an Ice Tanker leaving them soft and squishy. Again the only real way to help with them is Health.
3) Mobs that can buff each other's Accuracy or debuff DEF seem to have strong abilities in this area. Devouring Earth Quartz Beacons are a great example, as they seem to impart at least +100% Accuracy to other DE. I did notice that the length of time that Nemesis Vengeance lasts seems to be shorter on Test server right now, which is a big boon here. More changes like this need to come.
4) Base PvP Accuracy is 75%. This means that from the get-go an Ice Tankers Defenses are nullified come I5. Not to mention that 1 Accuracy Enhancer will cap that Accuracy for a non-AoE power. Weapon draw sets get +5% Accuracy. The prevalence of BuildUp, Aim, Focused Accuracy, etc. A DEF based melee set is utterly crippled in PvP. It'd be nice to know if this is going to be addressed somehow.
*****
Now I'd like to dive to other Ice Tanker issues. Many of which were covered in my PM to you, but I'd like to see them answered publically.
For starters... currently on the Test Server Ice Tankers look like this (base values):
Frozen Armor: 15% DEF Smash/Lethal, 30% RES Cold, 10% RES Fire
Wet Ice: negligible DEF, 30% RES Cold
Glacial Armor: 15% DEF Energy/Negative, 30% RES Cold
Energy Absorption: negligible DEF
Permafrost: 20% RES Cold, 10% RES Fire
Hoarfrost: 20% RES Toxic
Max slotted for DEF/RES as appropriate that leaves us at:
33% DEF Smash/Lethal
33% DEF Energy/Negative
134% RES Cold (90% RES Cold w/out Permafrost)
32% RES Fire (10% RES Fire w/out Permafrost)
20% RES Toxic (due to slotting concerns Hoarfrost doesn't get slotted for RES by 99% of people who have it)
So based on this I have a number of questions:
0) Why were Ice Tankers, who were clearly on the bottom of the Tanker barrel to begin with, having been on par with Invuln Scrappers defensively, hit so hard for this Issue?
1) Was the Slow Resistance fixed on Wet Ice? The patch note only mentions fixing it for Energy Absorption, and yet on live Wet Ice has the same bug.
2) Why is Wet Ice no longer offering a measurable amount of DEF? Is this intentional? If not, what can we expect here in the future in the way of DEF?
3) Question (2) but sub "Wet Ice" with "Energy Absorption"?
4) Is this the face of Ice Tankers going forward defensively? You've put us into a range defensively where we're only maginally better than an SR Scrapper (our base DEFs are slightly higher, but their DEF is total coverage, whereas ours is not). And when they pop Elude they end up with a much higher DEF than our totals.
This means our defenses are down in the low end of Scrapper range for I5, and yet we are not being subsequently provided with a compensation for this - Scrappers get their damage, what do we get as Ice Tankers?
5) Can you please! please! please! do something with Permafrost? It just sits there, and because its highly redundant with the RES in our other Armors it ends up not being taken by a large majority of Ice Tankers.
There are two things I could see you doing here:
a) Remove Permafrost completely, then either replace it with something new and exciting, and attractive, OR slide the powers that come after it down one tier (Icicles, Glacial Armor, Energy Absorption, and Hibernate). This would make room for a more exiting and melee oriented power at level 32 (more on this below).
b) Make Permafrost more attractive. Add Toxic RES to it (in addition to what's on Hoarfrost). Maybe throw in some Smashing/Lethal RES so we don't have to pool dive for Tough (a situation that the Test Server changes don't make any less necessary). How about Psi Resistance (the mind is as densly cold as the body).
6) If we are to have such a strong weakness to Fire, why must Ice Tankers also be weak towards Psi? And please don't answer this with more than "Psi is the Tanker weakness", because we both know that Stone Tanks get Psi defenses. Also please don't try to tell me that Chilling Embrace covers this, we both know Psi attacks are all ranged, and CE is a melee range effect on foes.
7) Can Chilling Embrace please be changed to not take level into account when affecting higher (or lower) level foes? It just falls off too rapidly to be as useful as its supposed to be. Even on a heroic mission with other teammates you can see mobs as high as +2, and that 25% drops down to 20% by that point, so it ends up not being as "equivalent" to RES as it should be.
8) If Chilling Embrace is really intended as a RES substitute (which is something I've always felt it was supposed to be), then can it please get a larger AoE for Tankers, to potentially affect more at range. Right now since it only affects melee range, its offers no protection at range at all.
9) The Hibernate lunch list:
a) Can it please not turn off any powers.
b) Can we please be able to turn on powers while using it.
c) In the advent that you choose to leave it the level 32 power, can you make it more melee friendly? Perhaps a Taunt Radius? an AoE "Bitter Frost" that causes a slow like Chilling Embrace? Or maybe just let Chilling Embrace work while its active?
d) Its nice that it heals, but there's no way to make that heal avaialble often enough to be of great use. The best recharge you can eck out of it is 16s and that requires perma-Hasten and 6 recharge enhancements. As most Ice Tanker deaths occur in the span of 5-10 seconds, that recharge time will never be fast enough. It basically has to be useful all the time more or less.
10) Cut the End cost of Icicles by at least half. The 1.5 EPS that it is on live is just way too high.
11) Why doesn't Glacial Armor (E/N DEF) protect vs Rikti Swords (S/E damage)? (please say bug!!!)
12) Despite all the Accuracy changes listed above, this does not at all address the fact that attacks performed by AVs and Monsters are designed to kill characters with capped or very high RES. There are some AVs who have attacks that can one shot a full green health bar of Hoarfrosted health. This has to go. You need to either reign in the attacks of AVs and Monsters to reasonable levels, or you need to provide a means whereby DEF based builds (Ice Tanks and SR Scrappers) do not get one-shot killed. Melee classes have defense, but vs large attacks DEF withouth RES is quite meaningless. And there's nothing a healer or anyone else on your team can do to alleviate this - except perhaps some RES buffs from an SB or Dark Defender, but to say we have to get those all the time is ludicrous. A real solution needs to be provided.
*****
In short, I mostly just want to know what we can expect in the way of actually being made to look like Tankers again? Because right now, on test, we don't look like much of anything anyone would ever want to play or play with.
Thank you for your time.
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I am going to quote this because it is that important. After hearing the Dev response I am getting closer to thinking about a mass PM campaign for Ice Tank recognition. If the Devs have recognized problems with Ice Tanks, then it would be nice to hear that. If they think we are crying for no reason then we would love to hear how they play their Ice Tanks and how much fun they have with them.
[ QUOTE ]
TO be fair, this is appreciated.
However, it doesn't even come close to addressing Ice Tanker concerns.
1) Why is Wet Ice no longer giving any DEF?
2) Why is Energy Absorption no longer giving any DEF?
Between those, you've completely crippled Ice tankers. I can barely manage my own missions, let alone tank for a decent team unless I'm loaded up with FBubbles and SBubbles.
3) Why has the Permafrost issue not been addressed (on the same vein, Temp Protection)? No power should be useless. Permafrost is. Replace it with something better. Ideally, dropping it, moving everything above down a slot, and giving us a useful L32 power would be best. That way, Ice Tankers can get their 'signature' power (Energy Aborption) at 18 like Fiery Aura does with Burn and Invulnerability does with Invicibility.
4) Why is Icicles do damnably expensive? It's easily the most expensive Aura, for no adequately explained reason. For Fnord's sake, be consistent! And why doesn't it do cold damage instead of the oft-resisted Lethal?
5) If tanker powersets are supposed to be (roughly) 133% of the scrapper, shouldn't Ice Tankers have far higher DEF?
Honestly, your fix is like putting a bandaid on a scratched finger while ignoring a sucking chest wound.
[/ QUOTE ]
/signed
[ QUOTE ]
On a different note,
When are DA Scrappers FINALLy going to be fixed?
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By "fixed" do you mean "neutered?" Gonna have to catch 'em first, methinks.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
I feel like a lot of the issus that people have regarding Ice tankers, Force Field defenders, and Super Reflexes scrappers are related to the problem that defense is mechanically weaker than resistance.
There is some (offtopic) stuff about that in the Sonic thread, and it's (more or less) been repeated here: defense-based sets see a higher variance in damage rates than resitance-based ones (thus the comments about getting one and two-shotted by AVs), and defense is more affected by increased foe accuracy defense debuffs and auto-hit powers (quartz, damage auras, and higher level or ranking opponents) while they equally affected by damage resist debuffs.
In effect, people who play ice tankers (or other defense-oriented sets) are penalized more for taking on challening opponents. Consequently as long as people are pushing past the 'design opponents' defense-based sets will be inferior to damage-resist based ones. Balancing the more difficult environment for defense would make defense-based sets comparatively overpowered - and probably herding capable - in a relatively less challenging environment.
Really, in order to balance things against the other tankers, Ice tankers need some ability that scales with rather than against relative mob level - that is- an ability that is more effective against higher level opponents. (Based on the game mechanics, I would suggest that a -regen aura might be an interesting choice.)
Not to sound negetive but...
What help does this have in PvP. With increased Damage outputs of people combined with the reduction in defenses for everyone equals still an uneven playing field in PvP. Is there anything being looked at as far as balancing this? Even though i dont PvP, it is still a big issue, when you take SR for example you got how many attacks that can completely drop every defense we have except for our now not worth mentioning passives.
You haven't helped Ice Tankers. They are still the weakest Tanker set in the game by far.
While this looks like it might help ice tankers, it also helps EVERYBODY ELSE just as much!
Ice tankers could, and mostly did, hit the EFFECTIVE defense cap, that is to say, most all of the time things that were trying to hit them had a 1 in 20 chance of hitting them.
Well, now defence has been nerfed, I don't know the numbers but do the reductions in accuracy cover the defensive nerfs to ice?
Secondly, the issue with Ice Armour hasn't been so much that their defence isn't high enough......its more to do with getting 1 shotted, or 2 shotted because they have no resist.
Im going to have to call shenanigans on this one.