[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think that it will soon be announced that EA and WI are intended to no longer provide defense.
[/ QUOTE ]
I tend to agree. Its part of why I think we're not getting any answers. I've looked at your numbers, and come to the same basic conclusions, but a deeper analysis shows that the two sets do not match up...
Fire Shield provides 30% base RES S/L
Frozen Armor provides 15% base DEF S/L
Problem there is this. If one is 30% the other should be 30%. When not taking DEF scaling (misnomer because its really Accuracy scaling) into account 1% of DEF is exactly the same as 1% of RES.
Therefore to be equal, the base DEF for Frozen Armor would have to be 30% for them to match up.
The same is not lining up here:
Plasma Shield provides ~30% base RES E/N (planner says 32.5% actually)
Glacial Armor provides 15% base DEF E/N.
Again for them to truly match up, Glacial Armor would need to be the same ~30% but as a base DEF.
Then look at Blazing Aura vs Icicles...
Blazing Aura:
0.75 EPS
0.6111 Brawl Index
AoE 15 feet
Icicles:
1.5 EPS
0.5556 Brawl Index
AoE 5 feet (melee range)
There's a huge difference there, with Blazing Aura being better in all respects. Cheaper to run, better damage, larger radius (both are likely cheaper to run on test I imagine).
Also because of the factors that make RES a constant vs enemies and DEF not so much a constant that the DEF values for Ice should probably fall at 5% higher than the RES values for Fire to compensate.
I would say its probably likely that Burn and Chilling Embrace do line up some now. Both Damage and Slows are affected by mob level difference - thus they become less effective the wider the margin. Though I'd personally say that now CE might actually be a more useful power than Burn.
The major disparity?
Being weak to Fire is a much larger problem in this game than being weak to Cold. Fire is simply much more prevalent. Therefore you should really be taking that into account when balancing the two weakness out towards one another, and that would mean that Ice should get slightly better Fire protection than Fire gets towards Cold.
As a side, the Psi thing is a joke. Stone Tanks still get (I think) a 15% base DEF vs Psi (haven't seen this tested, but I figure it go the same 40% reduction other DEF based powers did). So Psi is not a weakness for all Tankers. In fact, Stone's only weakness is Slows really, as they are affected greater by them. They have no armor holes really.
If Fire and Cold are the weaknesses for Ice and Fire, than that should be it. The Psi thing is an old statement when its flat out not true from the moment your mind formulates the words. Let Psi be the Invuln weakness, and let the Fire and Cold thing stick on Ice and Fire. And I'm not convinced that Slow is enough of a weakness for Stone.
Realistically, my basic thought is this. If Ice is indeed the DEF based Tanker, then it should be able to achieve DEF values that everyone else in the game has to work to achieve. That would be a better way to handle it.
As for RotP and Hibernate? They're both nice powers (I have RotP on my Blaster), but reality of the story is this: neither are well thought out 9th tier powers. They both function, but they're not Mog, Elude, Unstoppable, or Granite. Its just that simple to those, neither compare.
So I still think that for either set you drop their auto power (Temp Prot and Permafrost), and slide everything else down a level and make creative level 32 powers for them that are better in line with the other level 32 powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Once again I agree with Circeus. And still can't believe he's not getting paid for this 
"You wear a mask to hide who you are, I wear a mask to show who I am"
Arc ID 91456: The Zombie Apocalypse Task Force:poster 1, poster 2
CLICK THE ABOVE LINK TO HELP DO YOUR PART TO SAVE C.O.H!!!!!
[ QUOTE ]
slide everything else down a level and make creative level 32 powers for them that are better in line with the other level 32 powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps something with resistance against Psi? I still like the idea of making a click like Unstoppable that has the same radius as say a controllers Artic Air and provides -30% damage modifier to everything in its effect around the Ice tanker except for say Fire. But everything else would have reduced damage rather than say giving the Ice Tank straight res.
Heck you could to the same for Fire but instead of it being a -dam debuff make it a -acc debuff. You could say that the tanker burns the area around him causeing ash to fill the area around him obscuring enemy vision around him. That would give Fire tankers and Ice Tanks something Unique. It wouldn't have the end regen of Unstoppable but it would be more of a team benefit than just a tanker benefit allowing the tank to do more for the team.
I do believe that there should be a penalty to use this power along the lines of say Unstoppable or MoG. There has to be a negative other than just a long recharge timer.
[ QUOTE ]
I tend to agree. Its part of why I think we're not getting any answers. I've looked at your numbers, and come to the same basic conclusions, but a deeper analysis shows that the two sets do not match up...
Fire Shield provides 30% base RES S/L
Frozen Armor provides 15% base DEF S/L
[/ QUOTE ]
See, this I can explain, because they *do* match up if you use the same math the devs do.
For Minions, anyway.
Take a +0 minion that does 10 damage per attack, 20 attacks.
For the Fire Tanker: 50% hit, so that's 100 damage, 30% mitigation, so that's 70 damage.
For the Ice Tanker: 50-15=35% hit, so that's 70 damage
So, yes, it does work for minions. But for anything else, or anything above +0, it immediately falls down.
Not knowing if the last lil' patch on Test has helped much, I've seen how bad it was with I5 hitting Test. I'd have to agree with Circeus on what the numbers should be. 5% DEF more, number wise, than RES (of fire tanks) seems fair.
It's been stated that Fire was meant to give more damage than the other tanks, so I've never been surprised by the difference in Blazing Aura and Icicles.
Stone, although highly susceptible to SLOW is more hindered by it's own abilities than anything. Compared to the other tanks, it seems to be the most balanced.
As for the 9th tier power. I might be pessimistic, but I don't see it changing. Perhaps, in the future (far, far in it), when they bring the cap to 60; they'll give a 50 lvl Epic selection including a RES ability for Ice tanks. Only way I see us getting a power like it. 
I'm hoping that the numbers on tanks will get more reasonable once I5 hits Live and the Devs can see how Sonic affects Ice and the other tanks capabilities. They seem to be trying to get some Data on how they can work RES bubbles into the game without overpowering certain builds. And in Dev tradition, overdoing minuses is the first direction they use.
I dunno, 100 attacks 100 damage each, you get for each value that %RES = %DEF 1 for 1. The large problem is that combined together they're more powerful than either alone:
(edit: Oh and I wanted to add, that I'm aware its not so easy as a true 1 to 1 ratio if you're talking the DEF that a power offers vs the RES that a power offers, but rather that RES is an almost fixed value in the calcs, whereas DEF is a value that must be achieved as a combination of Accuracy and provided DEF).
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre> Num Att: 100
Dam/Att: 100
RES Dam/Att Tot Dam DEF Num Att Tot Dam
5% 95 9500
6% 94 9400
7% 93 9300
8% 92 9200
9% 91 9100
10% 90 9000 10% 90 9000
11% 89 8900 11% 89 8900
12% 88 8800 12% 88 8800
13% 87 8700 13% 87 8700
14% 86 8600 14% 86 8600
15% 85 8500 15% 85 8500
16% 84 8400 16% 84 8400
17% 83 8300 17% 83 8300
18% 82 8200 18% 82 8200
19% 81 8100 19% 81 8100
20% 80 8000 20% 80 8000
21% 79 7900 21% 79 7900
22% 78 7800 22% 78 7800
23% 77 7700 23% 77 7700
24% 76 7600 24% 76 7600
25% 75 7500 25% 75 7500
26% 74 7400 26% 74 7400
27% 73 7300 27% 73 7300
28% 72 7200 28% 72 7200
29% 71 7100 29% 71 7100
30% 70 7000 30% 70 7000
31% 69 6900 31% 69 6900
32% 68 6800 32% 68 6800
33% 67 6700 33% 67 6700
34% 66 6600 34% 66 6600
35% 65 6500 35% 65 6500
36% 64 6400 36% 64 6400
37% 63 6300 37% 63 6300
38% 62 6200 38% 62 6200
39% 61 6100 39% 61 6100
40% 60 6000 40% 60 6000
41% 59 5900 41% 59 5900
42% 58 5800 42% 58 5800
43% 57 5700 43% 57 5700
44% 56 5600 44% 56 5600
45% 55 5500 45% 55 5500
46% 54 5400 46% 54 5400
47% 53 5300 47% 53 5300
48% 52 5200 48% 52 5200
49% 51 5100 49% 51 5100
50% 50 5000 50% 50 5000
51% 49 4900 51% 49 4900
52% 48 4800 52% 48 4800
53% 47 4700 53% 47 4700
54% 46 4600 54% 46 4600
55% 45 4500 55% 45 4500
56% 44 4400 56% 44 4400
57% 43 4300 57% 43 4300
58% 42 4200 58% 42 4200
59% 41 4100 59% 41 4100
60% 40 4000 60% 40 4000
61% 39 3900 61% 39 3900
62% 38 3800 62% 38 3800
63% 37 3700 63% 37 3700
64% 36 3600 64% 36 3600
65% 35 3500 65% 35 3500
66% 34 3400 66% 34 3400
67% 33 3300 67% 33 3300
68% 32 3200 68% 32 3200
69% 31 3100 69% 31 3100
70% 30 3000 70% 30 3000
71% 29 2900 71% 29 2900
72% 28 2800 72% 28 2800
73% 27 2700 73% 27 2700
74% 26 2600 74% 26 2600
75% 25 2500 75% 25 2500
76% 24 2400 76% 24 2400
77% 23 2300 77% 23 2300
78% 22 2200 78% 22 2200
79% 21 2100 79% 21 2100
80% 20 2000 80% 20 2000
81% 19 1900 81% 19 1900
82% 18 1800 82% 18 1800
83% 17 1700 83% 17 1700
84% 16 1600 84% 16 1600
85% 15 1500 85% 15 1500
86% 14 1400 86% 14 1400
87% 13 1300 87% 13 1300
88% 12 1200 88% 12 1200
89% 11 1100 89% 11 1100
90% 10 1000 90% 10 1000
91% 9 900
92% 8 800
93% 7 700
94% 6 600
95% 5 500
</pre><hr />
ok, first off, before i had EA on my ice tank and after i got it and worked it up its like the saveing grace for defense on ice tanks. I almost compared it to Invicibility since it acted almost like it except it wasn't a toggle and for defense, take away defense and I'm even more useless. 
Just call me a scrapper instead. Unless they plan to give defense back in other powers.
Also on a side note, I was watching discovery channel about for airports having to de-ice planes during bad weather and also boats, Ice getts very heavy and in flight it can cause a plane to go down or a boat to sink if not kept de-iced. I know people don't want to hear it but maybe ice tanks shouldn't be able to fly, like rock tanks in granite armor. (Like anyone has fly for ice tanks but just thinking loggically).
Also please make hibernate into some kind of armor like granate, or Unstobbable. I'm not a polar bear, i don't hibernate!
Also Please give us a response Statesman! , anything, just as long as we know your listening!
[ QUOTE ]
(Like anyone has fly for ice tanks but just thinking loggically).
[/ QUOTE ]
I have fly! 
It just so happens that my Ice Tank is the spirit of a Pirate whose bones are at the bottom of the Arctic Sea. The spirit channels the cold around the bones to his spirit form to affect those around him and to protect his spirit from attack. He's a cursed spirit so he can be hurt just like a person but he gets super powers because he is here to do good and what not to make up for the blood on his hands. As he does good deeds (gets close to 50) his gloves will slowly lose the Dark red blood stains on his gloves and boots until they look like normal leather again (currently has a dark red blend on a brown leather folded gloves). So, thinking logically, he has fly. Who heard of a spirit walking around?
His name is Frozen Penance.
[ QUOTE ]
For Minions, anyway.
[/ QUOTE ]
And isn't that a problem?
Taking into account higher accuracies both Tankers will start to get increasingly more often, but the Fire Tanker will continue to take less damage.
For example, lets just change to 70% Accuracy...
Fire: 70%, 14 attacks * 10 * (1 - 30%) = 98 dam
Ice: 70% - 15% = 55%, 11 attacks * 10 = 110 dam
Better yet, 6 slot those powers where the problem gets more disparate...
Fire: 70%, 14 attacks * 10 * (1 - 66%) = 47.6 dam
Ice: 70% - 33% = 37%, 7.4 attacks * 10 = 74 dam
In other words, its a piss poor balance mechanism when you start to look at it from anything other than 50% Accuracy. Now if all mobs in game had 50% Accuracy, then 15% DEF would be a fine match for 30% RES, but its just quite simply not in general practice.
In fact, to get those two values to equal out for a 70% accuracy you'd need to find a DEF value that provides about 4.76 attacks. Or, more specifically:
47.6 dam/ 10 dam/att = 4.76 attacks
4.76 attacks/ 20 attacks = 23.8%
70% - 23.8% = 46.2% DEF required to match up
Even more is required for an AV or Monster that's now at 75% Accuracy...
Fire: 75% * 20 = 15 att * 10 dam = 150 dam * (1 - 66%) = 51 dam
51 dam / 10 dam/att = 5.1 hits
5.1 / 20 = 25.5%
75% - 25.5% = 49.5% DEF required to match up
And its clear that anything that just balances against minions will therefore always be woefully inadequate.
edit: and I just wanted to add that balancing towards 75% Accuracy is much more realistic considering that in PvP anything that attacks you has a 75% base accuracy.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think that it will soon be announced that EA and WI are intended to no longer provide defense.
[/ QUOTE ]
I tend to agree. Its part of why I think we're not getting any answers. I've looked at your numbers, and come to the same basic conclusions, but a deeper analysis shows that the two sets do not match up...
Fire Shield provides 30% base RES S/L
Frozen Armor provides 15% base DEF S/L
Problem there is this. If one is 30% the other should be 30%. When not taking DEF scaling (misnomer because its really Accuracy scaling) into account 1% of DEF is exactly the same as 1% of RES.
Therefore to be equal, the base DEF for Frozen Armor would have to be 30% for them to match up.
The same is not lining up here:
Plasma Shield provides ~30% base RES E/N (planner says 32.5% actually)
Glacial Armor provides 15% base DEF E/N.
Again for them to truly match up, Glacial Armor would need to be the same ~30% but as a base DEF.
Then look at Blazing Aura vs Icicles...
Blazing Aura:
0.75 EPS
0.6111 Brawl Index
AoE 15 feet
Icicles:
1.5 EPS
0.5556 Brawl Index
AoE 5 feet (melee range)
There's a huge difference there, with Blazing Aura being better in all respects. Cheaper to run, better damage, larger radius (both are likely cheaper to run on test I imagine).
Also because of the factors that make RES a constant vs enemies and DEF not so much a constant that the DEF values for Ice should probably fall at 5% higher than the RES values for Fire to compensate.
I would say its probably likely that Burn and Chilling Embrace do line up some now. Both Damage and Slows are affected by mob level difference - thus they become less effective the wider the margin. Though I'd personally say that now CE might actually be a more useful power than Burn.
The major disparity?
Being weak to Fire is a much larger problem in this game than being weak to Cold. Fire is simply much more prevalent. Therefore you should really be taking that into account when balancing the two weakness out towards one another, and that would mean that Ice should get slightly better Fire protection than Fire gets towards Cold.
As a side, the Psi thing is a joke. Stone Tanks still get (I think) a 15% base DEF vs Psi (haven't seen this tested, but I figure it go the same 40% reduction other DEF based powers did). So Psi is not a weakness for all Tankers. In fact, Stone's only weakness is Slows really, as they are affected greater by them. They have no armor holes really.
If Fire and Cold are the weaknesses for Ice and Fire, than that should be it. The Psi thing is an old statement when its flat out not true from the moment your mind formulates the words. Let Psi be the Invuln weakness, and let the Fire and Cold thing stick on Ice and Fire. And I'm not convinced that Slow is enough of a weakness for Stone.
Realistically, my basic thought is this. If Ice is indeed the DEF based Tanker, then it should be able to achieve DEF values that everyone else in the game has to work to achieve. That would be a better way to handle it. (edit: and doing this would not invalidate Defenders in any way, shape or form. On the live servers, despite the massive DEF on my Ice Tanker, I have never felt that he does not need a Defender to stand behind him, in fact, more often than not one is almost required, already , today - I5 makes no changes there, other than to make it moreso a requirement).
As for RotP and Hibernate? They're both nice powers (I have RotP on my Blaster), but reality of the story is this: neither are well thought out 9th tier powers. They both function, but they're not Mog, Elude, Unstoppable, or Granite. Its just that simple to those, neither compare.
So I still think that for either set you drop their auto power (Temp Prot and Permafrost), and slide everything else down a level and make creative level 32 powers for them that are better in line with the other level 32 powers. (edit: and fold their RES into one or more of the other existing armors, perhaps Wet Ice since its DEF is practically uselss now)
[/ QUOTE ]
I like the idea of making Ice Armor's defense bonuses equal to Fire Aura's resistance bonuses. That does alot to equalize the damage reducing benifits between the two sets, against even level minions that is.
I also agree that Icicles should be changed to match the endurance and damage performance of Blazing Aura. On top of that I think that the damage that Icicles does should be at least 1/2 cold damage, if not all.
Another thing I noticed has to do with Ice Armors Fire resistance vs. Fire Aura's cold resistance. Fire shield naturally gets filled with resistance enh's, boosting it's 10% cold resistance to 20 or 22% depending on slotting. Frozen Armor naturally gets filled with defense enh's, leaving Ice Armor's fire resistance at a bare minimum 10%. This compounds the problem of fire damage being way more prevelent than cold damage in the game. For this reason, I strongly suggest that the Dev's consider doubling the fire resistance that Frozen Armor grants. If they want to remove the ability to slot Frozen Armor with resistance enh's to prevent "on the fly" slotting for improved resistance vs. Fire AV's or what not, that's fine. This doesn't address the fire/cold damage frequency in the game, but at least it balances the sets against each other (which is what the Dev's seem to be doing).
Circ, I absolutely agree.
It doesn't make sense that you have one 'defensive' set that outperforms the other against everything but one (albeit common) enemy set, under a limited set of circumstances (that being no acc buffs on enemies or DEF debuffs on you).
But, it's clear the all the devs look at is that one particular enemy type and those limited circumstances when performing balance, and understanding that gives you some clue as to their balancing process.
It doesn't make sense that one powerset does a rarely resisted damage type for its damage aura, while the other does *less* damage of a *more commonly resisted* damage type for almost 3 times the endurance cost, over 1/3 the area.
But....actually, I got nothing on this one. Unless...they're counting Chilling Embrace in the equation somehow. Maybe.
I'm 100% on with you, Circ. My Ice/EM is 36 now, and I just finished the 35-40 AV arcs (Envoy, Terra). Those were bad enough with what's on live, I shudder to think the slaughter they'll be under these goofy I5 rules. I *dread* the 40+ AV glut.
[ QUOTE ]
Fire has 30% resists vs. Smashing and Leathal, Ice has about 15% defense vs. Smashing and Leathal. Is this balanced in I5? Of course either tank is likely to pick up Tough as an addition to this, but I don't think 15% base is enough.
[/ QUOTE ]
The sixty four thousand dollar question, and its a question I've put forth in posts and PMs regarding SR scrappers in a slightly different light.
Against minions 30% resists is the same damage mitigation as 15% defense. Minions have base 50% to-hit, so 15% defense is 15/50 = 30% damage mitigation.
Ah, but against anything other than an even level minion, 15% defense is lower mitigation. Against an even level boss, for example, its equivalent to about 23% resistance.
Now, the big question: because defense's mitigation is dependent on to-hit, while resistance is not, you can only balance their mitigation by picking a to-hit standard: either pick a target and balance based on that target as the representative target, or pick a mix of targets, and balance based on average mitigation.
So if I decide to balance Frozen Armor's defense against Fire Shield's 30% resistance against an even level LT, FA's defense ought to be 17.25%. If I decide to balance against a spawn of one boss, two LTs, and 8 minions, it ought to be 15.7%. Pick your average, and you have your number.
Except, in teams where the ice tank is tanking, its very often the case that the minions are wiped out very fast: its the bosses that are left standing for a disproportionate amount of time. There is a case to be made that - for ice tanks to function as team tanks - frozen armor ought to give comparable defense against a boss as 30% resistance gives to a fire tank. That would be 19.5% defense.
You could also make the case for saying Ice tanks should have the same mitigation against AVs as fire tank resistance, but there you might be venturing into unbalancing territory: by balancing against AVs (22.5% defense, btw) you'd be making Ice tank mitigation superior to fire resistance in all other situations (outside of high to-hit buffs, and its pointless to go there - Ice tanks would need higher than 200% defense to be balanced against resistance in those situations, so that's not going to happen).
Its a little tricker than that because fire does not have a dull pain equivalent, it has a self-heal instead. But as a first order approximation, these are the numbers Ice ought to have, plus or minus, to have comparable damage mitigation to fire tanks - at least for this one power comparison in particular.
Its this crazy "how do you keep defense from being so unstable in its mitigation" that prompted me to propose a supplemental form of defense and a different way to hand out accuracy to villains, by the way. Although I tend to talk about SR scrappers, its mainly because I've played one to 50 passing through release numbers, I1 numbers, perma-elude, I4 toggle builds, and I5 where-did-my-defense-go numbers, and so my experience is more rooted for SR than Ice, but the problems are very similar.
Tough makes life more complicated, because tough stacks with resistance and defense in different ways. Assume (so the numbers are relatively simple) that both tanks have tough slotted for 20% resistances (this appears to be well under the maximum value for tough in I5, but it serves to illustrate the point). Stacking 30% on that gives 50% mitigation. To get the same mitigation would require stacking about 24.375% defense on a boss to get to 50% mitigation (assuming both have 20% tough resists). Notice this number is higher than the number computed in the absence of tough (19.5%). If Ice tanks are balanced assuming both have tough, they'll be better if neither have tough. If they are balanced in the absence of tough, they won't be able to achieve the same maximum mitigation. It gets even more complicated if you assume both have weave.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Decided to make a little video with my friend. I know the arena isn't a popular place but it really seemed to show how weak and useless my Icee became.
My friend is a DM/Regen. Has 2 Acc/Dam in every attack but air sup. He did not turn on Tatics, Focus Acc, or even Build Up.
I have all 3 shields on and have EA stacked when he begins to attack. Each shield has 1 end and all Def buffs slotted.
Helms.mpg - 4.31 megs
The results here were 10 totall attacks and 2 misses. I actually did a test with Tough and Weave on. Tough 1 end 5 Res, and weave all Def + my shields. The result was 14 attacks only 2 misses. On the live server he has told me that he can't hit me unless Foc Acc is on and even then he misses more than this.
However the real sad thing is when I actually do attack. With my ice melee its even worse cause I do no damage to anyone and then all my end starts going down, although the ea boost helps alot. If the patch comes out the way it is I most likely will respec my tank with just wet ice and EA, for end. I will be weak but at least I won't be wasting power slots on something that doesn't do anything.
Lots of interesting posts in here. Hopefully they'll consider making some further changes to balance things out.
My newborn ice tanker thanks you 
.
Some excellent research and numbers here - thanks.
I know we might only be a minority group (which is telling enough in itself) but please devs can we get a response on this - just to let us know you are still reading!
I was one shotted in two consecutive missions on Sat, I'm meant to be a tank
[ QUOTE ]
I was one shotted in two consecutive missions on Sat, I'm meant to be a tank
[/ QUOTE ]
Ya, I know how it feels. You guys can go to my thread called ballad of the ice tank to hear some stories from my fellow ice tankers. Some good, some bad and others just plain funny 
"You wear a mask to hide who you are, I wear a mask to show who I am"
Arc ID 91456: The Zombie Apocalypse Task Force:poster 1, poster 2
CLICK THE ABOVE LINK TO HELP DO YOUR PART TO SAVE C.O.H!!!!!
Heh, you should see an Ice Tank against a blaster. Man is that a quick fight. Nice vid by the way. I really need to get fraps instead of useing the demo record feature.
EA on test no longer provides defense? plus the rest of our defenses are being cut?
My hami'os are now worthless on AE !!!
Well I might as well just up my damage if they give us a free respect becuase i'm now a srapper
Also is previous post, i said ice tanks don't take fly, I did have it for awhile and it got me in way to much trouple from hami so thats why i don't have it anymore
Although it does add defense or at least hover does, hmmm?
Statesman, and development crew,
15% S/L is too low for Frozen Armor
15% E / NE is too low for Glacial Armor
Ice Armor is lacking in a few different areas. We are apparently the defensive tanker set, but we fare no better than some other tanks defensive numbers against like attacks. So we actually don't hold the defensive crown among tankers.
We face inherent defensive build problems, which I know you have made some attempt to address in regard to lowering may foe's accuries. Thanks, that is a welcome change, but not directed specifically Ice tanks, but to all AT's who encountered those mobs. We have no way of improving our Tanking ability above our 2 armors now.
We do get a slow resist. Thanks!
We do give a -recharge to surrounding mobs. Thanks!
We do get Hibernate, not bad, could be improved a little. Thanks!
I don't really want to see resistance added to the set. I know it may be a "quick fix" that many are asking for, but defense is supposed to be our bread and butter. I would like to see an increase to the base numbers of FA and GA. The testing I have done against 10 even level freaks was very disappointing. I didn't feel tanking at all. It felt more like "do whatever I can just to say alive". This may be the goal your looking for, but to me it is not tanking. Ice needs to be able to avoid more attacks than it is currently on test. I still want to enjoy playing this character, and not have my experience turn into a story of frustration and shelving of the Hero.
Defense, especially with how it is set up now, is not getting it done. It is our weak point!
A damage debuff would be interesting and different. A cool feature to add to the weakest tanker set. This or some solution like it would addresses the number 1 problem with Ice Tanks, being 1 shot by ++ acc or AV's & Monsters. I don't have this experience other than fighting Devouring Earth myself, as my Ice tank is SL32. I would however love to avoid this issue as I see so many other experienced Ice Tank players complain and ask for a solution to this issue.
Hibernate: Maybe a shorter activation time on Hibernate? That way if we need it NOW, it can be used. A resistance tanker could get away with the long activation time... but when a defensive build is getting nailed, you need healing or escape ASAP. Also a taunt AoE around hibernate would be great for when we do need to duck into our shelter, at least we could hold some agro still.
Your the game designers. I'll try to play and have fun with what you guys see as a fun balanced game. Thanks for your time.
i still don't agree w/ hibernate being a good power, why not just make horrorfrost a heal and have it recharge faster. it was give us an easier save while still in the fight. also hibernate wastes end like crazy so if ya got no end when u need to heal u are screwed!
Also someone commented on an ice ammor that can be chipped away untill we are left open, can't hibernate be made into something like that, so we can survise the av's 1 hit ko's and still be able to do our jobs? Is this just wishfull thinking or does it sound like something good?
Just give a a response Stateman, Please!
There are sone inherently wrong things I want to share...
My Top Ten
10. The Ice Tank has been known for Defense. We are well protected, but suffer greatly when hit.
9. Ice Tanks are good in some situations, bad in others, and cause team wipes in others.
8. Hibernate get Ice Tanks into a lot of trouble. Nothing like taunting and resorting to hibernate to save your butt. Now you got to wait for your team mates to regroup and come save your butt again. Because those baddies don't mind banging for all eternity on the ice...
7. What does an Ice Tank use as an attack? After 6 slotting all armor, we are left with maybe 3 attacks... LOL... and one is icicles.
6. Every move has taunt with it. Great! I taunt everything to hit me so that I go down quicker and they focus on my team...
5. Ice Tanks are speed bumps. Some are better than others but are just a better speed bump.
4. We got love in Issue 3 with Stackable Armor. We got a little rework with Issue 4. We got a pinkslip with Issue 5.
3. Ice Tanks will be rare in Issue 5. This will cause us to be novelties that are there to show off... "Hey [insert Ice Tank name here]! Show me your Ice Sword!" and 'Oooo! I've never seen one of those before!" Hey! I already hear that!
2. Why should we be on a team? Everything we can do, others can do in their sleep. We bring nothing that can't be done better except die...
And the number one thing we can say about Ice Tanks...
1. Since we can't PVP well against the others (we can hibernate for a tie if the circumstances are perfect), and we can't team (unless we take all the defensive power pools powers and forgo any attacks), then we are left to do missions Solo... Oh, wait! What am I thinking? Solo? Right! And Ritki Monkies might fly out of my butt!
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Decided to make a little video with my friend. I know the arena isn't a popular place but it really seemed to show how weak and useless my Icee became.
My friend is a DM/Regen. Has 2 Acc/Dam in every attack but air sup. He did not turn on Tatics, Focus Acc, or even Build Up.
I have all 3 shields on and have EA stacked when he begins to attack. Each shield has 1 end and all Def buffs slotted.
Helms.mpg - 4.31 megs
The results here were 10 totall attacks and 2 misses. I actually did a test with Tough and Weave on. Tough 1 end 5 Res, and weave all Def + my shields. The result was 14 attacks only 2 misses. On the live server he has told me that he can't hit me unless Foc Acc is on and even then he misses more than this.
However the real sad thing is when I actually do attack. With my ice melee its even worse cause I do no damage to anyone and then all my end starts going down, although the ea boost helps alot. If the patch comes out the way it is I most likely will respec my tank with just wet ice and EA, for end. I will be weak but at least I won't be wasting power slots on something that doesn't do anything.
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<sarcasm>
You know no one gets buffed... after a video like this they'll probably nerf Dark Melee.
</sarcasm>
Currently roleplaying, badgehunting, and laughing at the PvPers of CoX. lol, PvP.
Truedusk - Human Rogue
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I most likely will respec my tank with just wet ice and EA, for end. I will be weak but at least I won't be wasting power slots on something that doesn't do anything. -Helms
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If you are a Dev and you have read this post and played the demo... Tell me this.. is CoH more fun with the changes or less? More balanced, or less?
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I've seen more than a few people crying for Ice Tankers to have their own place to give feedback. And since we've already planned to change Unyielding some, a few think we're ignoring Ice in favor of Invulnerabilty. So I wanted to start this thread.
Here's a couple of changes coming that I think will help:
Reduced Accuracy of Minion level Turrets from 75% to 58%.
Reduced Accuracy of Lieutenant level Turrets from 94% to 65%.
Reduced Accuracy of Boss level Turrets from 113% to 75%.
Reduced Accuracy of Snipers from 75% to 65%.
Reduced Accuracy of Archvillains from 90% to 75%.
Reduced Accuracy of Giant Monsters from 90% to 75%.
Reduced Accuracy of Monument Minions from 75% to 58%.
Reduced Accuracy of Rularuu Bosses from 90% to 75%.
BIG thanks to Circeus, for his tireless devotion to all that is Ice Tankerish. Hip hip hooray!
PLEASE keep the discussion limited to Ice Tankers. Anything else will be removed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Anyone else think this isn't addressing the issue of ice tanks pretty much suck and should get a boost and not nerfed to worse crap then they were? Since these changes "help" every AT and not just ice tanks?
Can the developers be any lazier trying to "fix" Ice Tankers?
WoW and EQ2 are starting to look real good.
[ QUOTE ]
I think that it will soon be announced that EA and WI are intended to no longer provide defense.
[/ QUOTE ]
I tend to agree. Its part of why I think we're not getting any answers. I've looked at your numbers, and come to the same basic conclusions, but a deeper analysis shows that the two sets do not match up...
Fire Shield provides 30% base RES S/L
Frozen Armor provides 15% base DEF S/L
Problem there is this. If one is 30% the other should be 30%. When not taking DEF scaling (misnomer because its really Accuracy scaling) into account 1% of DEF is exactly the same as 1% of RES.
Therefore to be equal, the base DEF for Frozen Armor would have to be 30% for them to match up.
The same is not lining up here:
Plasma Shield provides ~30% base RES E/N (planner says 32.5% actually)
Glacial Armor provides 15% base DEF E/N.
Again for them to truly match up, Glacial Armor would need to be the same ~30% but as a base DEF.
Then look at Blazing Aura vs Icicles...
Blazing Aura:
0.75 EPS
0.6111 Brawl Index
AoE 15 feet
Icicles:
1.5 EPS
0.5556 Brawl Index
AoE 5 feet (melee range)
There's a huge difference there, with Blazing Aura being better in all respects. Cheaper to run, better damage, larger radius (both are likely cheaper to run on test I imagine).
Also because of the factors that make RES a constant vs enemies and DEF not so much a constant that the DEF values for Ice should probably fall at 5% higher than the RES values for Fire to compensate.
I would say its probably likely that Burn and Chilling Embrace do line up some now. Both Damage and Slows are affected by mob level difference - thus they become less effective the wider the margin. Though I'd personally say that now CE might actually be a more useful power than Burn.
The major disparity?
Being weak to Fire is a much larger problem in this game than being weak to Cold. Fire is simply much more prevalent. Therefore you should really be taking that into account when balancing the two weakness out towards one another, and that would mean that Ice should get slightly better Fire protection than Fire gets towards Cold.
As a side, the Psi thing is a joke. Stone Tanks still get (I think) a 15% base DEF vs Psi (haven't seen this tested, but I figure it go the same 40% reduction other DEF based powers did). So Psi is not a weakness for all Tankers. In fact, Stone's only weakness is Slows really, as they are affected greater by them. They have no armor holes really.
If Fire and Cold are the weaknesses for Ice and Fire, than that should be it. The Psi thing is an old statement when its flat out not true from the moment your mind formulates the words. Let Psi be the Invuln weakness, and let the Fire and Cold thing stick on Ice and Fire. And I'm not convinced that Slow is enough of a weakness for Stone.
Realistically, my basic thought is this. If Ice is indeed the DEF based Tanker, then it should be able to achieve DEF values that everyone else in the game has to work to achieve. That would be a better way to handle it. (edit: and doing this would not invalidate Defenders in any way, shape or form. On the live servers, despite the massive DEF on my Ice Tanker, I have never felt that he does not need a Defender to stand behind him, in fact, more often than not one is almost required, already , today - I5 makes no changes there, other than to make it moreso a requirement).
As for RotP and Hibernate? They're both nice powers (I have RotP on my Blaster), but reality of the story is this: neither are well thought out 9th tier powers. They both function, but they're not Mog, Elude, Unstoppable, or Granite. Its just that simple to those, neither compare.
So I still think that for either set you drop their auto power (Temp Prot and Permafrost), and slide everything else down a level and make creative level 32 powers for them that are better in line with the other level 32 powers. (edit: and fold their RES into one or more of the other existing armors, perhaps Wet Ice since its DEF is practically uselss now)