As several other people have suggested, you can't pass off a general reduction in mob difficulty as a change specifically designed to bolster one particular powerset. It's just not going to be received that way. If Ice is the least effective Tanker powerset before this global change, it's likely to continue to be the least effective.
Normally, this is where I'd give my grand ideas about how "things should be." But I don't have an Ice Tanker, so I'll spare you the junk mail.
Come on, Give the ice tankers some feedback here. They have been more than patient with you guys for longer than most people should have.
Ok, the test server has finally updated to reflect the changes that Statesman mentioned. (i.e. monsters have 75% acc now).
So, I reran the tests that I ran yesterday...there is a bit of a difference, but still not enough I found. Here's the summary of the tests:
On live, test server pre monster acc debuff, and test server post acc debuff. My live numbers are approximate since I don't have access to the live servers right now to verify. For the test I fought one Thorn DE monster in PI. For defense I had weave, combat jumping, and all of the ice armor shields running. All of my defense powers, save wet ice and combat jumping, are 6 slotted: 2 end reductions and 4 defense. Only green inspirations were used to prolong the test. Its also worth mentioning that I had hasten running. While this does nothing for me on test, it adds 5% defense on live.
So, the numbers...
On live, and this was tested for about 20 minutes, I was hit b/t 40-50% of the time. As I said, those numbers are approximate since I can't double check that right now.
On test before today's update, I was hit 90% of the time. This consisted of 50 attacks by the monster.
On test today, I let the monster attack me 200 times. For the first 50 I was hit 80% of the time. For the second 50 I was hit 64% of the time...thus after the first 100 attacks by the monster I was hit 72% of the time with all my toggles running.
To test the noticeable difference between the first 50 and the second 50, I ran another run consisting of 100 more attacks by the monster. On this test the average once again turned out to be the monster hitting me 70% of the time. While there were strings of the monster not hitting me more so in this last test as compared to the first, it all averaged out in the end.
So, while it might be claimed that the accuracy of monsters has been reduced to 75%, what I have found that with all of my toggles running, a monster still hits me approximately 70% of the time. My defense helps mittigate only 5% of the monster's accuracy? This still seems to be broken.
As an ice tank, without hoarfrost running, I have approximately 2000 hitpoints. The Thorn attacks for 750 and 450 damage with its 1-2 punch (so these are fairly close together), and then has an attack for 1100 damage that's more rare. All that is lethal damage I believe, so those numbers were mitigated by tough. Without any heals, that means I can withstand 5 of the monster's attacks, or, if it uses the more powerful attack, 3-4 (i.e. this is the case if you land next to the Thorn, he footstomps and throws spines...or whatever that attack of his is called at you, then you jump away and he uses his larger attack).
Luckily, hoarfrost provides a nice 1000 hp heal, but even with 5 recharges in it and hasten running, it is still very infrequent.
As well, on all of these tests, EA was not used.
So, in summary, the ice tank is still underpowered v. a monster, though its better than it was earlier this week. In order to balance the table some, boosts to an ice tank's defense, returning the defense to hasten, or boosting weave would help. My preference would be for the ice tank's defense to be improved slightly (+5% to each power and let us retest what that does).
I think that what I failed to mention in my previous post is that while the tests were against a monster, the real issue is longevity v., say, an AV...given that some AV's alpha strike is greater than the amount of hp I have as an ice tank (even with hoarfrost active), if they have a 70% chance to hit me with all of my shields on, this provest to be a problem. However, I didn't have an AV handy to test, so I've no numbers to report on that.
I've tanked to lvl 46 with my ice tank and never got tough or combat jumping. Does this mean that if I dont get it for I5 I'm pretty much screwed? I've always believed that a tank shouldn't need to go to the power pools to get more defense, our primaries should be more than enough... 
"You wear a mask to hide who you are, I wear a mask to show who I am"
Arc ID 91456: The Zombie Apocalypse Task Force:poster 1, poster 2
CLICK THE ABOVE LINK TO HELP DO YOUR PART TO SAVE C.O.H!!!!!
It honestly seems to me that these changes are going to do little but make Ice Tankers more cookie cutter.
As it stands now, taking Tough/Weave is a matter of choice. Post I5, we'll need the extra RES and DEF to be able to do our missions solo, never mind teams.
Personal Test Results:
Ice/EM, Level 36. FA slotted 5/1 (DEF/End), WI 5/1, GA 2/1, EA 3/3 (Rech/DEF)
Live: I can run Rugged or Tenacious solo missions with some challenge, CoT/DE missions are always tough. Anything higher required major strategy, and CoT/DE are brutal.
Test: I can run Heroic missions with significant care, and a lot of rest breaks or use of Hibernate, CoT/DE are brutal. I tried some Rugged/Tenacious, but had to go very slow and died often.
[ QUOTE ]
If a minion currently has 50% accuracy, a Lt has 55% and a Boss has 60% accuracy...
Then Ice Armor Tankers need to be able able to reach at least 60% Defense to be viable. They should be able to floor at least even-con Bosses (putting SR Scrappers at 48% Defense). This would also put AVs/Monsters (going to 75% accuracy) at 15% to hit. Does this seem reasonable?
Also, what if Energy Absorption acted as a reverse Invincibility, adding to Resistance rather than Defense? Say 5% Resistance per foe, up to 3 foes or so (Enhanceable to 11% per foe)?
This seems to indicate that after slotting, Wet Armor and Glacial Armor ought to grant around 40% to 60% Defense each, with Frozen Armor granting 25% to 30%. Or is my math off again?
[/ QUOTE ]
The numbers I'm currently comfortable with are 50/57.5/65 for to-hit on minions/LTs/Bosses. Flooring a boss would require 60% defense in that case.
However, I should state that I would rather not perpetuate the original mistake made in balancing the twin invuln sets, by presuming that if Ice tanks end up having top defense around 60%, then SR scrappers "ought to have" 48%. Ice tanks ought to get the defense they need to do their job correctly, and so should SR scrappers. If scrappers are supposed to attack bosses, giving us 48% defense against a base 65% to-hit boss gives us 74% damage mitigation, which might be just barely right, but its also true we might be almost as well off standing at range and firing laser beam eyes.
That also scales off quickly with higher level foes (which you'll see in teams even if you leave the slider on heroic).
If it turned out that Ice tanks needed 60% and SR scrappers needed 60% also, then so be it. If Ice tanks need twice the defense of SR scrappers to function in the environments they find themselves in, they should get it. The defense requirements of Ice tanks should not dictate SR defenses, or vice versa (SR is currently topping out at 37.5% - that shouldn't dictate Ice getting 48 if SR isn't changed).
With SR scrappers having no dull pain, and Ice tanks having hoarfrost, Ice tanks already theoretically can have twice the health of SR scrappers. The 80% "rule" is meaningless when comparing the two.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
I've seen more than a few people crying for Ice Tankers to have their own place to give feedback.
[/ QUOTE ]
way to go Jack. i'm glad between this and your "some leave" statement we're getting a clear picture of how u view us. do u know or care how we view you? only because the game WAS that good, am i still playing it. i suspect this will change shortly.
[ QUOTE ]
And since we've already planned to change Unyielding some, a few think we're ignoring Ice in favor of Invulnerabilty.
[/ QUOTE ]
gee, where would they get that idea? could it be cause your Dev team has a long history of ignoring glaring problems in certian ATs while making changes to others that worked just fine before?
[ QUOTE ]
Here's a couple of changes coming that I think will help:
Reduced Accuracy of Minion level Turrets from 75% to 58%.
Reduced Accuracy of Lieutenant level Turrets from 94% to 65%.
Reduced Accuracy of Boss level Turrets from 113% to 75%.
Reduced Accuracy of Snipers from 75% to 65%.
Reduced Accuracy of Archvillains from 90% to 75%.
Reduced Accuracy of Giant Monsters from 90% to 75%.
Reduced Accuracy of Monument Minions from 75% to 58%.
Reduced Accuracy of Rularuu Bosses from 90% to 75%.
[/ QUOTE ]
this is good for ice tanks ...along with all the other ATs. so by giving a sweeping good change we should overlook that the ice set got no individual improvement. umm, ok 
ice has issues like... o forget it ...why bother.
~Jin
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've seen more than a few people crying for Ice Tankers to have their own place to give feedback.
[/ QUOTE ]
way to go Jack. i'm glad between this and your "some leave" statement we're getting a clear picture of how u view us.
[/ QUOTE ]
From Merriam-Webster Online:
[ QUOTE ]
Main Entry: cry
Pronunciation: 'krI
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): cried; cry·ing
Etymology: Middle English crien, from Old French crier, from Latin quiritare to make a public outcry, perhaps from Quirit-, Quiris, name for the Roman citizen
transitive senses
1 : to utter loudly : SHOUT
2 archaic : BEG, BESEECH
3 : to proclaim publicly : ADVERTISE <cry their wares>
intransitive senses
1 : to call loudly : SHOUT
2 : to shed tears often noisily : WEEP, SOB
3 : to utter a characteristic sound or call
4 : to require or suggest strongly a remedy or disposition "a hundred things which cry out for planning -- Roger Burlingame"
[/ QUOTE ]
There's plenty of stuff to be mad about without going ballistic because you misinterpreted a word in the worst way possible. I'm just sayin...
Doesn't that like...help all characters? And help SR scrappers damn more then it does Ice Tankers?
Seriously though. This feedback does seem a little nonsical.
Here's my two cents.
The villain accuracy change does help us a litttle, but we're still plagued by the same problems. We're still in terrible shape in I5. PvP is a joke (1 ACC SO negates our defenses essentially), Arch-Villains can still one shot us, though the endurance issue has been improved but at the cost of the total decimation of the Energy Absorption Defense Bonus.
1. We need more Defense than the pitiful 30% we're managing on Test atm. Give it back to Wet Ice, Energy Absorption, or Glacial and Frozen Armor.
2. We need to have the one shot problem addressed along with having our Defense Bonuses raised. So, we can effectively tank as well as the other 3 primaries.
I've heard additional +Hp, token reist (25% fully slotted), abalative shields (runes)..Anything will work as long as we can do the job without having to worry about just dying in an instant. I personally would prefer a passive of some type.
3.The Developers need to decide if our weakness is going to be Fire or Psychic, or give us something extremely good to compensate for having both as a weakness. It's not right or fair that the "weakest" tank has the most Achilles' heels.
3. Permafrost is useless as is...rework it or ditch it.
I want to see Ice Tanks be able to tank as well as everyone else. I don't think we should be excluded or wrote off as "well, they'll get one shotted. We need a real tank."
And, I agree with Circeus. I'm becoming increasingly frustrated. Ice Tanks have posted the same concerns and issues we have always had over and over and over. But, we're getting no responses at all except here is yet another thread, and it's just for you!
I too believe that Ice tankers need a little help.
Apparently, most ice tanks don't believe this. If they did, they'd spend less time complaining about the word 'crying', and less time complaining that a change a dev said 'should help' isn't specific enough, and more time doing what some forum goers have done and post more of your concerns, for a real change that would help.
I don't think Jack meant that this change would help only Ice Tankers, it doesn't, it IS however, something that Ice and SR need to know, and SR already had its own thread.
That being said, lets come up with some ideas to make ice more playable.
[ QUOTE ]
That being said, lets come up with some ideas to make ice more playable.
[/ QUOTE ]
Really, most of the ideas are already in this thread. Statesman just needs to sit down and actually spend the time to address the questions that have been asked. Its really beyond the time for doing this. Enough with leaving us to sit and spin.
But to sweeten the pot... I'll tell you what Statesman... I will send you a case of your favorite beer if you'd just answer the questions. I'm 100% serious here, the good drink is now ready to be on your table. All you need to do is answer all the questions I've laid out in this thread about Ice Tankers. Every single one.
Just wanted to add that changing Chilling Embrace from 25% -recharge to 20% -dmg would significantly reduce the number of one-shot Ice Tanker deaths without making them mitigate any more damage than they currently do. (Hadn't seen this argument made in this particular thread)
Of course, while this would resolve existing problems on live, it would not alter the fact that 33% S/L def and 0% fire def on test is so low one wonders whether Ice will be able to compete with the mitigation that other tanker primaries can still crank out.
Note: I don't have actual numbers for Ice defenses or fighting pool at hand from test server, this is going on the earliest numbers I've read.
I've had my Ice tanker since long before stackable armors. I've done every TF and trial and most story arcs with her as the primary tank. I've taken her on test as well. And through all that, the biggest problem I've always faced are the unreliability of defense, and endurance problems.
Defense Issues:
With defense, it's possible to go through a mob and not get touched, or to get pummeled completely. All depends on how the dice roll in your favor. Personally I took tough from the fighting set to give me more survivability in the face of opponents with high accuracy AND high dmg. Having one or the other never really bothered me too much. Avs and monsters and upper level bosses are the biggest issues. Without some type of resistance, we'll always eventually be one-shotted by an Arch-Villain, which I don't think any tanker should be.
However, the problem is that if the developers DO give us more resistances from permafrost, say even 5 %, we have the potential to become too strong. 5% turns into over 10% after enhancements, which can get up to 30 after tough if you choose it. (this is based on a guess at tough's I5 value being 10%)
This gives you a tanker who can potentially floor the tohit of any foe, leaving a 5% chance of anything hitting them, and then adding 30% resistance to anything that does hit them. If you then take into account hoarfrost, the atlas medallion and freedom phalanx, you have a tanker who can potentially outclass any other aside from invuln during Unstoppable (which pretty much nothing can outclass).
Since taking tough, I've never been one-shotted. If the numbers say we need more resistance, I'll be happy to take it. But I'm afraid that I just don't need it if it's going to be taken away once people start building defensive giants with heavy resistance.
I think a balance of defense and resistance would help, but I like my high defense. I don't want to sacrifice it for resistance if I don't have to.
Endurance Issues:
This is much simpler. many of the endurance costs are okay, but frozen armor and icicles cost too much for what they're worth to me in defense and offense. After keeping it for 50 levels, I finally ditched icicles in favor of more balanced endurance costs. On live, I run only wet ice, chilling embrace, tough, foc. acc., and energy absorbtion against even levels foes and turned on frozen armor and glacial when i run into something tougher such as large mobs, multiple bosses, or AVs.
With I5, I need to keep most of them running full time which causes more end concerns so that I can't afford foc. acc. unless Conserve Power is running, and I feel that the extra accuracy is needed in the upper levels if we're to rely on punchvoke AT ALL, which is inconsistent at best.
Over all, I've only spent a few hours on test, but most of my concerns are the same as they've always been. Balancing the Ice endurance cost, and making the defenses more reliable without making Ice too strong. The bone we've wanted to be thrown our way for so long could turn Ice tankers into walking caltrops, that's harder to kill than a cockroach.
So, in getting a thread specifically for Ice tankers, we recieve a post from Statesman listing a set of global changes. Brilliant.
First off, I want to pipe in with my thanks to Circeus for his work towards our cause. If you're ever in Calgary, the beer's on me.
Now, getting down to business, I think that the first thing we absolutely, without-a-doubt NEED is confirmation as to whether or not Wet Ice and EA are working as intended or are bugged. If they're working as intended, then the Devs need to get real. There's simply not enough defense as is to make Ice/* viable. If they're bugged, then good. Get to work on fixing them. This thread might well turn into a non-issue if we could only know one way or the other.
As it stands, Rock-hopper is on the shelf. He won't be coming off again until such a time as changes are made to make him soloable again. It's preposterous to say that in order to do my job, I need a defender. I'm not talking about herding groups of 100, I just want to be able to keep up with the Joneses.
I've noticed that someone on the boards has in their sig something to the effect of "A controller minus the control is a "ler." I'm a ler." I can't help feeling like an "er"- a Tanker minus the tank.
If the tone of this post comes off a bit demanding, good. Frankly, I'm frustrated with the constant neglect that is shown by the devs towards the Ice tank. I've seen the same comments about Ice posted over and over and over on the Tanker board, only to have these concerns completely overlooked in favour of more mainstream sets. Yes, we have had a few changes tossed our way in the previous few issues, but more often than not, the changes were not for the better. To put it bluntly, on live Ice is a sub-par set. On I5, it's a waste of code. I don't plan on quitting CoH over this. However, I also don't plan on continuing with my Ice tank when my Earth/Rad controller tanks better.
Ice Tanks are heroes too!
My story arcs: #2370- Noah Reborn, #18672- The Clockwork War, #31490- Easy Money
Sartre once said, "Hell is other people." What does that make an MMO?
HAHAHAHAHA.. you call this changes for ice tanker? is the accuracy change only for ice tankers or for everyone? Have you even played an ice/ice tanker or let alone a */ice tanker? Ice melee is the WEAKEST tanker melee set, its like slapping around villians compared to others that actually hit. It does very little damage even with the boost you gave in i4. Plus the ice defense is crap to begin with and then you lower it more. this just adds more evidence that you DON'T play the game you created.
[ QUOTE ]
Note: I don't have actual numbers for Ice defenses or fighting pool at hand from test server, this is going on the earliest numbers I've read.
[snip]
Defense Issues:
[snip]
Endurance Issues:
[/ QUOTE ]
Tank In Pink... I have to say that this is probably the best post I've seen in the Dev's Corner. It breaks the problem down and explains a suggestion that promotes balance instead of the typical "gimme more" or "don't nerf me - I'm useless" type of thread.
Devs, I also have an ice tank, and have found that I'm a rare breed indeed, and I think there's a reason for it. I also have a few invul tankers and the difference is remarkable, how an Ice Tank's auto powers are less flexible than an invulnerable's (energy, dark energy, big defense), yet have no trade-off, like higher protection values. In essence, an Ice Tank is more of a low damage Ice Scrapper with more hitpoints. Sort of like a junior Fire Tank, now that I think about it.
I would like to point out that there should be more consistent trade-offs between endurance costs, power flexibility and magnitude. Currently, it seems that such trade-offs have been neglected.
Thanks for the corrections, Arcanaville!
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
My first, and favorite, character in City of Heroes was an Ice/Ice tank. What can I say? I have Raynaud's, it seemed to fit.
I loved it when we could get stacking armors. It brought us up one of our many neglected holes to near-par with other tanks. We're told we're the "controller" tanks...except not really.
I cannot even begin to fathom why a global accuracy change to mobs is supposed to give Ice Tankers hope. You fixed something for everyone, that wasn't even a problem for everyone.
I was estatic to get my Ice/Ice to 50. It meant that with the upcoming changes, I wouldn't have to go through the roughest part of the game with even more problems stacked up on that poor guy's shoulders.
We've had endurance problems, more so than other tank sets, as far back as I can remember (Last September?). We've had problems with resistances to effects, which was thankfully taken "care of" with stacking armors. But only compounded our endurance problems. Then Icicles. The joke that is Icicles. Don't get me wrong, I love that power. But in order to make it useful, ie- actually HIT and do damage, I had to suffer the pain of it's high endurance drain. Ice tanks are about control though...right? Chilling Embrace is a joke. Please don't tell me it's not. I remember reading it's description, and thinking "yes!! Slowing down my enemies so they won't hit me as much AND can't run away fast?" It did one of those. For kicks and giggles, I put 4 slow enhancements in it once. Just to see if it would help. Oh, sure, they can't run away very fast. And yeah, it slows down minions pretty bad. I almost never noticed a difference with lt's, bosses...or, heaven forbid, I slow down an Arch-Villian. Yet the other tanks powers...don't they work on AV's?
When I got Ice Patch, I felt useful again. I could knock guys down some. But wait..that's a secondary, that's not even a Primary Power. Are you sure we're supposed to be the controlling tanks? And then, if I ever made the mistake of putting 2 down at once, or using it on some types of clockwork (read: all minions)..they'd all go flying away instead of falling down. Oops. Sorry team! Control.
When I found out what Energy Absorption was, I was over joyous with relief. The saving grace of Ice/* tanks. Our redeeming quality.
Then I started fighting Devouring Earth. Yeah, those eminators don't pop up till the 30's...but that's only, what...4 levels of happiness when you have to fight DE? For whoever said tanks should be their best with a defender around...yeah, I had a defender with me at all times with the DE. Sometimes two. The only reason I could survive half the times I did is because of the health and endurance regen they could give me. Not because of resistance, or defence boosts. No, I had (note the past tense) plenty of defence. Sometimes the only way to get it was to gather about 15-20 DE around and use EA, but darn tootin I had it. Until they popped down one quartz. Not 2, 3..50. One. Then it was see who could take down the quartz the fastest. "Take a Dark Defender with you!" It only works for so long. Thankfully, I finally got past the DE. Somehow they were the only contacts I had left until I reached about...34-36. Oh yeah, but then they came back.
No, DE wasn't my only problem. Is got worse when I heard around lvl 40 that EA was gonna be changed. Some people felt that it was too powerful. Yeah, the redeeming power of Ice/* tanks was too powerful. The Underdog tanks...too powerful. Great call.
So instead of FIXING problems Ice Tankers have (note the present tense) ya'll thought it'd be good to add more? Nah, most of us didn't cry out "nerf". We even had our own thread where we discussed it like adults, and very specifically talked about why that was a bad move. All 30 of us. But when the shaft came, we took it. Again.
For a time, when all the other thanks got hit hard, Ice started pulling through again. Then the EA bomb hit us, and hit us hard. It doesn't matter how high our defence is- hits will always get through. They're always supposed to get through. Even the really, really hard hitting ones. But "the streak?" We sure don't feel like the King and Queens of Defence....getting hit over 15 times in a row will do that to you. Especially those hard hits.
Yaaaay, we got some endurance drain for EA. Supposedly a good compromise. No....we were then left with even less defence before: ya know, when many, many hits still got through. The slow effect? Just about as useless as Chilling Embrace's.
Inherant Taunt? Please.
And now...dropping the accuracy for everyone is supposed to be somehow linked to Ice Tankers? As their big helping change? I had many, many characters in City of Heroes. But my first was, and always will be, my favorite. He existed when the Dev's were about fixing problems (sometimes the Ice Tanker's problems). You know it's true: the Ice Tankers have been needing some love forever, and ya'll keep choking 'em tighter.
Were we too cookie cutter? Were there tons of us running around? Hell no. I could count the active Ice/Ice tankers on Guardian without using all four extremeties. Why the need to keep hurting our build? I never met an Ice Tanker who had all (or near all) the same powers as me. Not one. Yeah, we all had EA. But that's because we needed it to survive.
Don't get me started on */Ice. Bar far the weakest of the secondaries too, isn't it? Oh yeah...control. Something like that. I waited 38 levels to get some real damage. I got my Greater Ice Sword to the highest damage I could. I could take some minions out in 3 attacks (Greater, Lesser, Greater)...if I had enough endurance left. I took Energy Mastery (if the name is still the same) because I had to. Conserve Energy, and an Accuracy toggle. Not to mention 2 ranged attacks? I couldn't contain myself.
Conserve Energy does eventually wear off. Sure, I could throw Endurance Reduction on all my powers, but by the time I got it to the point where I could almost break even, none of my powers would be worth it anymore.
Inspirations you say? I made sure that over half my tray was all blues. It had to be. I needed the end recovery more than health, if you can believe it. Sometimes the reverse was true, but more than not I'd have to leave a mission multiple times because I'd need more endurance inspirations.
States, ya've lost me. I can't think of any logical reasoning behind half the things you've done to Ice Tankers. Then making a thread for Ice Tankers...and announcing that accuracy will be globally reduced? Is that supposed to give us hope?
I see more intervention and listening to players in Guild Wars...and that's saying a lot. That's saying a whole lot. I was gonna get City of Villians. I still want to. But I don't wanna see how many times one team can give its players the shaft...and expect us to like it.
"A few think we're ignoring Ice in favor of Invulnerabilty"
How on earth is not fixing Ice Tankers problems by going into the set itself, but making a change for some who don't even need it, NOT ignoring Ice Tankers? I've had SG mates give me their condolences after reading patch notes before. Why? They're not even playing Ice Tankers, and they know how many hoops we've jumped through to yet again get another shafting.
Statesman, start fixing Ice Tanker problems. Hopefully you've seen some of them on this last page alone:
"Control"...Endurance, Energy Absorption...etc. Start listening to us for once.
"PLEASE keep the discussion limited to Ice Tankers. Anything else will be removed."
How many on the first page alone are still there? I know, moderating can get pretty busy (I help moderate on forums)....but why the hell can't people listen? Honestly? Right there, first post, that this is for Ice Tanks. I gave up going through each page, I didn't want to see how many posts were about how happy other AT's would be.
Ironic, isn't it? Scrappers rejoicing over what Dev's thought would be a nice change for Ice Tankers. A "nerf" to accuracy is for Ice Tankers? Why even bother pretending that this had Ice Tankers in mind?
~Glenjimo Hasaki
I have a level 25 ice/EM tank, and she is the most fun i've ever had with a tank. I found sets like invul and fire far too boring. Ice has always been the worst tanker primary mainly because it can get one shotted by AVs! i have been looking forward to EA for 25 levels, and then i read the nerf to defense. Tell me why you feel the need to gut ice even more. EM is my grace at the moment, the stun is very helpful in keeping mobs from hitting me, and i am just glad im not /ice. Seriously...ice tanks are in desperate need! a global accuracy isnt gonna help us a whole lot
I thought I would try to be objective on the test server and see if by chance something positive was going to happen with regards to one-shotting.
I have shadowhunter available (first praetorian arc) for my level 42 ice tank on the test server. This is the only AV available for my copied character. I have EA four slotted for defense, frozen armor six slotted, wet ice six slotted. I went ahead and turned on glacial armor too and it is four slotted I believe. I also turned on tough which is five slotted with damage resistance, one slot for endurance drain. (I would six slot for resistance, but that character doesn't have enough influence to get the other enhancement)
I used SuperJump to hop over all the omega wolves and settle on a rock near shadowhunter. I don't expect to solo AVs, but I wanted to see what happens on test if I run up to one as a tank. I decided to not use other wolves and just use the two omega wolves near SH for energy absorption. I hopped down and turned on Combat Jumping and Chilling Embrace (both only have one enhancement, defense and slow respectively).
I hopped over to Shadowhunter and fired off EA with three people in range. Before it even activated, I was dead. This really didn't surprise me though, but it happened. I was hit for 1906.64 damage when I only have 1759 health. One-shot and I was done. I didn't dodge an attack. I should have hit hoarfrost before I jumped in, but I didn't. I was going to buy that last damage resistance enhancement from ghost falcon, but I didn't finish his mission on this copied character. I will likely copy another version of my ice tank over to test. I imagine I will see the same result. I will try again later.
The Dark Blade
"I've felt your mouse on me before, you perv...." - Troy Hickman
Paragon Wiki
I've been thinking about the current test data for Ice tanks and the new nerf to Burn for fire tanks. I think that it will soon be announced that EA and WI are intended to no longer provide defense. Lets compare the current test states of Fire and Ice tankers...
Fire Shield provides 30% res vs. fire & 10% res vs. cold
Frozen Armor provides 30% res vs. cold & 10% res vs. fire
Fire Shield gives protection against Smashing & Leathal
Frozen Armor gives protection against Smashing & Leathal
Plasma Shield gives protection against Energy and Negative
Glacial Armor gives protection against Energy and Negative
Plasma Shield gives some resistance to Fire
Glacial Shield gives some resistance to Ice
Fiery Aura has no armor specific to elemental or Psy damage, but has huge Fire resistance, leaving Cold & Psy as weaknesses
Ice Armor has no armor specific to elemental or Psy damage, but has huge Cold resistance, leaving Fire & Psy as weaknesses
Temperature Protection can provide small compensation vs. Cold
Permafrost can provide small compensation vs. Fire
Burning Aura provides a damage aura
Icicles provides a damage aura
Consume provides endurance recovery
Energy Absorption provides endurance recovery
Burn is now a damage mitigation power
Chilling Embrace is a damage mitigation power
Rise of the Phoenix is a high level emergency power
Hibernate is a high level emergency power
It seems to me that Ice and Fire tanks are getting closer to being mirror image opposites. Interesting huh?
====================================
That being said, I think that the dev's should now balance Ice against Fire as much as possible.
Fire has 30% resists vs. Smashing and Leathal, Ice has about 15% defense vs. Smashing and Leathal. Is this balanced in I5? Of course either tank is likely to pick up Tough as an addition to this, but I don't think 15% base is enough.
It's nearly the same story with Energy and Negative, but there are no self aquired powers to add to this directly like Tough.
None of this takes into account the basic scaling differences between Defence and Resistance, but I think that the dev's aren't to concerned about that. They would rather we fought foes closer to our own level it seems.
Dev's! Please make sure that you give us Ice Tanks great defense vs. Sm/Le/En/Neg! Leave the weaknesses (Fire/Psy) they are understandable. But make sure that our strengths are strong enough for us to tank and do a decent job of it.
I will match Circ's offer. Just communicate with us.
TTR
[ QUOTE ]
I've seen more than a few people crying for Ice Tankers to have their own place to give feedback. And since we've already planned to change Unyielding some, a few think we're ignoring Ice in favor of Invulnerabilty. So I wanted to start this thread.
Here's a couple of changes coming that I think will help:
Reduced Accuracy of Minion level Turrets from 75% to 58%.
Reduced Accuracy of Lieutenant level Turrets from 94% to 65%.
Reduced Accuracy of Boss level Turrets from 113% to 75%.
Reduced Accuracy of Snipers from 75% to 65%.
Reduced Accuracy of Archvillains from 90% to 75%.
Reduced Accuracy of Giant Monsters from 90% to 75%.
Reduced Accuracy of Monument Minions from 75% to 58%.
Reduced Accuracy of Rularuu Bosses from 90% to 75%.
BIG thanks to Circeus, for his tireless devotion to all that is Ice Tankerish. Hip hip hooray!
PLEASE keep the discussion limited to Ice Tankers. Anything else will be removed.
[/ QUOTE ]
That isnt for Ice Tankers,that is just general AI changes!