[ QUOTE ]
What does an Ice Tank use as an attack? After 6 slotting all armor, we are left with maybe 3 attacks... LOL... and one is icicles.
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I just wanted to add that this is a very accurate statement for my ice tank. I had three attacks (including icicles) for a long time until I finally picked up freezing touch. Granted, I did pick up ice patch as well which most other offensive sets would more than likely pick up another offensive power at that point. I re-spec'ed out of ice sword (my second offensive power) later so I could pick up tough because all my primary defensive powers with all those enhancements wasn't doing enough to protect me.
[ QUOTE ]
Ice Tanks will be rare in Issue 5. This will cause us to be novelties that are there to show off... "Hey [insert Ice Tank name here]! Show me your Ice Sword!" and 'Oooo! I've never seen one of those before!" Hey! I already hear that!
[/ QUOTE ]
I get that as well. I've been asked a few times what various ice powers look like. It is always fun to show off powers though.
The Dark Blade
"I've felt your mouse on me before, you perv...." - Troy Hickman
Paragon Wiki
I wanted to add the following because its somewhat pertinent...
The larger concern here is new Ice Tanks, and then for Ice Tanks who are not yet 50. When I started my campaign I wanted one thing, to see more Ice Tanks.
These changes will not do that. In fact, they will make Ice Tanks even more scarce than they are. Its not an even trade off at all. The devs instead of saying "what can we do to make Ice Tanks more appealing to people". Have instead made them mostly unappealing from the get go.
I'm not saying that I want to see everyone playing an Ice Tank. What I'm saying is that the Ice Tank Population already comprises less than 1% of all Tankers (note: the devs will probably tell you there's more than that, but I'm talking actually played characters, not ones sitting dormant on a server that the account holder isn't playing on). And yes, I understand somethign like Invuln is always going to dominate, but realisitcally they should be shooting to get Ice to 10% of the population. Instead they're driving it deeper in the hole.
I've demonstrated, that on-average balancing for DEF will never work vs. RES. However, from Bridger's Explanation (which is rougly the same as mine), clearly shows that it is the direction of the devs to balance this way. And yet, balancing this way will always make Ice Weaker.
And that is the fundamental problem.
In I5 mob accuracies will range from 50% (minions) to 75% (AVs/players). on-average balancing means that you will likely be balanced vs RES for minions, but if that's true, then its also true that you won't be balanced vs AVs.
So, if this is to remain the means for balancing, despite it being a piss poor way to balance, Ice should very likely have better across the board defenses (say like SR Scrappers, or Stone Tankers) and fewer weaknesses, not less and more.
All I see for I5 right now is a lot of balancing that makes us not only tremendously weaker than we were, but fundamanetally weaker than any other melee character in game defensively, and yet we have very little to compensate for it.
On top of it a bubbler (Force Field) can provide more DEF to every single player on his/her team than an Ice Tanker can provide for themselves on their own. Then of course, combine that bubbler with a wailer (Sonic Resonance) and every other memeber of the team looks better than the Ice Tank because they are more functional.
And that only exacerbates the issues, rather than addressing them.
Well, no dev response since the 26th. They are probably too busy with:
A. Getting Korean version of COH ready
B. Working the COV alpha and preparing for the Beta
C. Fixing issue V stuff for the ATs that have more players
This does not bode well. They will eventually fix it, but it could be a very long time. Reminds me of Mind Contollers, weak from the day of release, got nerfed into near oblivion with the increases to mob hold resistance (and AV immunity), and didnt get buffed until after issue 2. Saw the same pattern with DA scrappers, their end usage is still silly in issue IV. If the pattern holds, fixes won't be made until nearly every ice tanker now being played has made it to 50 or been deleted in disgust. The Devs are performing triage and there just aren't enough ice tankers to get their attention.
One possible solution, which I think I have seen elsewhere:
Do two passes for Bosses and AVs. The first pass would be the usual hit check. If its a hit, a second pass would be made to see if all or a portion of the damage is taken (some of the attack misses, or slides off). This would work nicely for the autohit powers as well. The damage could be made 'chunky' to retain the feel (e.g. 25%,50%, 75%, or 100% damage). The problem of course is that the Devs probably don't have time to code and debug this kind of a change given A, B, and C above.
Sigh, I will enjoy playing my Issue IV Ice tanker, fragile as he is, while I await the issue V hammer to shatter him. Hey how about those sonic and archery sets? Can't wait to try em on live...
Bleh - no more underdog power sets for me.
This is a tricky little thing to touch, being as I haven't logged on too much time on the test server as of yet. My defense is mainly ice armor glacial armor, wet ice, and chilling embrace. I never bothered with the icicles. The general theory I had going is if I could keep the baddies attacking slower, I get less shots at being hit.
I have noticed always with the ice tanker this "it's either easy of intensely hard" thing going on at least on large teams. Solo play is more manageable. When things actually do crack your defense they can slather on some pain rather fast. If you can keep your defense up, you can make a empath defender's job real easy. So far I've generally avoided 1 2 3 whammies on the live server, I'd keep hoarfrost as an ace up my sleeve in terms of refreshing hp when I get hammered. Though, I'm only at level 25 with my ice tanker so I do not know how they play on high levels.
Here's the thing that worries me with this upcomming update. Low level ice tankers are going to be rather shocked, literally, clockwork. Those clockwork can slather on a lot of energy abuse in large clusters. I think it would help ice tankers if you took glacial armor down one notch, swap it with icicles or something. They need need that energy defense at lower levels if you ask me.
Here's another idea, as I said, if things turn on an ice tanker, as people said numerous times. They can turn fast. Now, somebody suggested this rather involved ablative armor idea. I got a more simple solution that plays on the same idea. How about you made it so any active ice defense mode has a hoarfrostish affect of giving a kick to the players max hp, without the hoarfrost healing. You don't have to make it as dramatic as hoarfrost, but it'd give ice tankers a little more breathing room on eating blows. Another idea would be to just make hoarfrost a toggle that increases regen and max hp.
Energy absorption, now, when it's clusters of monsteres in large missions, finding 16 targets to get any siginificant defense bonus is a doable task. If you are in the middle of an arena scrap, or facing down an archvillian, as has been brought up before, this is going to be a tough card to play. I see two possible solutions, either you make it so it gives a larger bonus from draining AV's and Players, or you make it more devastating to endurance, because as everyone knows, nothing hurts some heroes more then having their endurance blasted through the floor. I mention sapper to some players and they curl up in a corner and and tremble with fear. Mind you I do know energy absorption is a fair drop on endurance but a little bit of a harder hit wouldn't hurt, mind you as I'm writing this, it makes me curious how much abuse it'd lay out if I slotted it up with endurance drains.
I will have to do some more test runs on the test server though and get in some larger parties to see how it plays out though. So far, solo play seems rather stable for my Frost Iron, he has ripped through solo heroic missions without breaking a sweat, and I've taken things at and slightly above my level with minimal damage. At my level, it took about 4 lt warwolves, a boss warwolf and some minions for spice solo before I had to kick on hoarfrost and eat a few inspirations.
This will make the ice tanker more sensitive to the level difference, you know the situation, you join the mission as a tank, you are a couple levels below everyone, but not far enough behind for a SK. I'll have to test this situation out to be certain though. So far a lot of this is speculation.
I kinda like being one of the lone ice tanks out there, I feel kinda special that I was able to make it to lvl 50 w/ her, and also like people saying, "I don't see many of your kind around."
List of my Powers:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frozen Armor - 6 slots (1endreduction, 4 DefBuff, 1 Cyto's)
Hoarfrost - 1 slot (w/ health)
Wet ice - 6 slots (1endreduction, 3 DefBuff, 2 Cyto's)
Permafrost - 6 slots (all Damage Resist)
Glacial Armor - 6 slots (1 endreduction, 5 DefBuff)
Energy Absorbtion - 6 slots (1 endreduction, 2 DefBuff, 3 Membranes) *if this loss's defence then my hami'os are worthless here
Icicles - 1 slot (endreduction)
Tough - 6 sloted (1 endreduction, 5 DamageResist)
Weave - 6 sloted (1 endreduction, 5 DefBuff)
Combat Jumping - 4 sloted (1 endreduction, 3 Def Buff)
*is 7 toggles really nessessary? keep in mind my SG usually fights on the hardest setting, even again AV's, so fighting lvl 53-54's is a common thing and other tanks are kicking my butt.
Also have hasten, rage, and conserve engergy full slotted w/ recharge rates, which means i can get EA and rage to double up, and w/ conserve energy i can wack away untill it falls off, once it does I really can't attack much cause my end falls drastically. Also when rage drops I can't taunt for awhile or attack which is ok cause i have just enough taunt to keep them on me untill i can taunt again. Rage does increase Icicles too in issue 4, so if i would'a slotted it heavy damage i could be doing more then burn ever could, but i wanted footstomp to have the damage. haven't try'd on test server yet so not sure if everything will be the same. Having double rage makes it easy for footstomp to hit the cap and also KO blow and makes my little attacks much better. So once again I always joke about being a scrapper instead of a tanker.
Can u tell i'm trying everything to raise my Def through the roof 
This still makes me less then good when dealling w/ av's and some boss's
Like i said before range attacks aren't really a problem, except hami and mito's, they like me , its the close combat attacks that get though the most.
And Does anyone know if we will be getting a free respect for issue 5? (cause i have already used all mine 
)
I'd also like to see how other ice tanks are slotted for defense, maybe i have way to much i'm not sure.
Well Im just waiting for the Ice Tanks to get over looked and go live in this broken state. My Ice tank is the only Hero I have played for about 8 months so I will give the Dev team until the end of this week to give more a response then "we are still looking into Ice Tanks" or do another global villian nerf. With all the Hard numbers that we have gotten on our sheilds and that they already know because they progammed it.It should not be this big of a problem.Im not gonna renew my account if im not gonna have fun.
[ QUOTE ]
List of my Powers:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frozen Armor - 6 slots (1endreduction, 4 DefBuff, 1 Cyto's)
Hoarfrost - 1 slot (w/ health)
Wet ice - 6 slots (1endreduction, 3 DefBuff, 2 Cyto's)
Permafrost - 6 slots (all Damage Resist)
Glacial Armor - 6 slots (1 endreduction, 5 DefBuff)
Energy Absorbtion - 6 slots (1 endreduction, 2 DefBuff, 3 Membranes) *if this loss's defence then my hami'os are worthless here
Icicles - 1 slot (endreduction)
Tough - 6 sloted (1 endreduction, 5 DamageResist)
Weave - 6 sloted (1 endreduction, 5 DefBuff)
Combat Jumping - 4 sloted (1 endreduction, 3 Def Buff)
*is 7 toggles really nessessary? keep in mind my SG usually fights on the hardest setting, even again AV's, so fighting lvl 53-54's is a common thing and other tanks are kicking my butt.
Also have hasten, rage, and conserve engergy full slotted w/ recharge rates, which means i can get EA and rage to double up, and w/ conserve energy i can wack away untill it falls off, once it does I really can't attack much cause my end falls drastically. Also when rage drops I can't taunt for awhile or attack which is ok cause i have just enough taunt to keep them on me untill i can taunt again. Rage does increase Icicles too in issue 4, so if i would'a slotted it heavy damage i could be doing more then burn ever could, but i wanted footstomp to have the damage. haven't try'd on test server yet so not sure if everything will be the same. Having double rage makes it easy for footstomp to hit the cap and also KO blow and makes my little attacks much better. So once again I always joke about being a scrapper instead of a tanker.
Can u tell i'm trying everything to raise my Def through the roof
This still makes me less then good when dealling w/ av's and some boss's
Like i said before range attacks aren't really a problem, except hami and mito's, they like me , its the close combat attacks that get though the most.
And Does anyone know if we will be getting a free respect for issue 5? (cause i have already used all mine )
I'd also like to see how other ice tanks are slotted for defense, maybe i have way to much i'm not sure.
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Yes, we will be getting a free respec with I5. Here are my defenses by memory. Dino Girl is lvl 42.
Dino Girl (I4)
Frozen Armor (1 end, 5 def)
Hoar Frost (6 rech)
Chilling Embrace (1 end)
Wet Ice (1 end, 5 def)
Energy Absorption (1 end, 5 def)
Glacial Armor (1 end, 3 def)
Permafrost (1 res)
Hibernate (1 end)
Tough (6 res)
Hasten (6 rech)
Health (1 heal)
Stamina (6 rec)
Conserve Power (1 rech)
Dino Girl did alright as Ice Tanks go. I picked up Permafrost for the extra 10% fire resistance to prep for those CoT portal missions and the AV you get to fight in the early 30's (Envoy of Shadows?). For my fights against this fire AV, I slotted Frozen Armor on the fly with res enh's I kept in my tray just for him, boosting my fire resistance to about 32% plus WI and EA defense allowing me to tank him effectively for my teams. I also made it a point to make many Dark Defender friends and team with them when possible. The resistance from Shadow Fall turned me into an icy version of a Stone Tanker, since I had super high defense and very good resistance vs. all damage types.
After some brief time on the test server and reading other tankers results on these boards, I came up with this slotting and have used my I4 free respec to slot her this way now for I5 live, knowing that I will be getting another free respec soon anyway.
Dino Girl (I5)
Frozen Armor (1 end, 5 def)
Hoar Frost (6 rech)
Chilling Embrace (1 end)
Wet Ice (1 end)
Energy Absorption (3 rech, might go with some end drain)
Glacial Armor (1 end, 5 def)
Hibernate (1 end)
Tough (1 end, 5 res)
Weave (1 end, 5 def)
Combat Jumping (1 def)
Health (1 heal)
Stamina (6 rec)
One thing that I have done is lose Hasten so I can have 5 more slots for other things, but I miss it and might put it back in. I also miss Permafrost, since 10% resistance to fire with only power pool defense isn't too swift. Lots more testing to do.
First - I didn't mean it to sound that the Accuracy reductions were the ONLY change forthcoming. It's just that these changes, while global, benefits the Defense builds more than others....
Secondly, I apologize if anyone thought my reference to "crying" meant "whining." What I meant by "crying" was something like "demanding" or "shouting for." That's what I get for starting threads like that without having an editor!
Thirdly, several of you have noted that I didn't address some major concerns of Ice Tankers. Here, I think, are the big ones....
Yes, Wet Ice and Energy Absorption provide relatively small DEF buffs. This is not a bug and by design. Wet Ice provides a base defense of +.5%; Energy Absorption provides the same buff for every foe within melee range (up to a maximum of 14 targets).
One shotting by AV's. In a word, you are ALL correct. It's not a good thing for an Ice Tanker to be leveled by a single blow. So we're going back and changing the damage done by AV's so that it's no longer possible for a Tanker to be one shotted.
Yes, I hear the complaints about Permafrost. And I'm...thinking. I've read many suggestions - and gotten more than a few PM's about it. There's a lot of good ideas there. So I'm going to do some pondering there.
[ QUOTE ]
One shotting by AV's. In a word, you are ALL correct. It's not a good thing for an Ice Tanker to be leveled by a single blow. So we're going back and changing the damage done by AV's so that it's no longer possible for a Tanker to be one shotted.
[/ QUOTE ]
woot!
By the way did you mean to put that decimal point before the 5%?
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, Wet Ice and Energy Absorption provide relatively small DEF buffs. This is not a bug and by design. Wet Ice provides a base defense of +.5%;
[/ QUOTE ]
Because with both the % and the . that equates to .005 not .05.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
[ QUOTE ]
So we're going back and changing the damage done by AV's so that it's no longer possible for a Tanker to be one shotted.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thank you. A damage reduction to AVs, combined with an increase in their HP, should make AV fights feel more heroic by making them longer, while giving support classes more to do. It'll also keep Def characters, who are terribly mangled by most mobs (a side effect of Res scaling with mob damage, but Def not really scaling at all), work better in groups.
States man does this "No one shotting" Policy affect ALL AV's? Does this include mitos? Will hamido damage finaly be of a specific type instead of no resistance what so ever to it? <lowering glasses in a cnn reporter manner of factly way>
/puts mic up
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, Wet Ice and Energy Absorption provide relatively small DEF buffs. This is not a bug and by design. Wet Ice provides a base defense of +.5%; Energy Absorption provides the same buff for every foe within melee range (up to a maximum of 14 targets).
[/ QUOTE ]
Phew.. .5% seems a little low but I guess if thats how overpowered Ice was, I'll deal with it
This space is intentionally left blank.
[ QUOTE ]
By the way did you mean to put that decimal point before the 5%?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm afraid he did mean it that way. Defense is always expressed as a percentage. So, say, if you have a defense of 15%, adding in Wet Ice gives you 15.5%.
So at most an unslotted EA gives you an extra 7% defense. 14% with 5 defense SOs.
Somehow I think Chilling Embrace is going to be much more important for damage mitigation than... just about anything in the Ice Armor set. CE and Hoarfrost. Who needs defense, anyway?
[ QUOTE ]
By the way did you mean to put that decimal point before the 5%?
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, Wet Ice and Energy Absorption provide relatively small DEF buffs. This is not a bug and by design. Wet Ice provides a base defense of +.5%;
[/ QUOTE ]
Because with both the % and the . that equates to .005 not .05.
[/ QUOTE ]
Good catch EG. That would make the numbers look like this:
.005 = 6 slotted for def (2.2*.005)*100 = 1.1%
vs.
.05 = 6 slotted for def (2.2*.05)*100 = 11%
**assuming even con SOs.
We really could use that number on EA as well. Since you feel like sharing data. 
Please let that be 5% and not .5%!
/cries...and then /whines
[ QUOTE ]
We really could use that number on EA as well. Since you feel like sharing data.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Energy Absorption provides the same buff for every foe within melee range.
[/ QUOTE ]
Phantom Rose: Ill / Kin / Psi
Soleau: Ice / Icy / Ice / Core: Ice / Fire / Pyre / Wind / Eclipse / Flare / Corona
---------------
Solo Space
[ QUOTE ]
One shotting by AV's. In a word, you are ALL correct. It's not a good thing for an Ice Tanker to be leveled by a single blow. So we're going back and changing the damage done by AV's so that it's no longer possible for a Tanker to be one shotted.
[/ QUOTE ]
In regards to this I assume you will adjust it so the psionic based AV's Clockwork King, Mother Mayhem, Malaise, Babbage, Carnie AV's, can not one shot or tear a tank to shreds faster then one or two healers can heal? Because it will not always be possible for a team to get an assortment of defenders that will be needed as it stands in issue 5. All tanks get shreded and fire more so since they have no defense and what little defense we could get, weave, is now utterly pointless to get or slot as it stands.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We really could use that number on EA as well. Since you feel like sharing data.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Energy Absorption provides the same buff for every foe within melee range.
[/ QUOTE ]
[/ QUOTE ]
hmmm. That's not the way I read it, but ok. Assuming that it is also either .005 or .05 then:
6 slotted as before (even con SOs)
.011*14 = 15.4%
.11*14 = 154% !?!?!?
Soooo 15.4% + 1.1% = 16.4% WE is still too low then
Still, that is assuming you get 14 mobs in range of EA.
Corrected WE % cause gsolo was right I made a mistake lol.
[ QUOTE ]
So we're going back and changing the damage done by AV's so that it's no longer possible for a Tanker to be one shotted.
[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely fantastic news! Best thing I have seen since I5 hit test! I am very pleased to see this! Mostly for ice of course (I still have an Ice tank after my character purge of all non-I4 modified toons), but also for the invulns getting one-shotted by non-S/L AVs!
This in turn will help non-tanks too, since some lowering of that insane damage cannot be bad for them.
But the WI and EA numbers seem a bit low arent they? I am glad to see you want to fix Permafrost too, it's just not a very good power right now.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We really could use that number on EA as well. Since you feel like sharing data.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Energy Absorption provides the same buff for every foe within melee range.
[/ QUOTE ]
[/ QUOTE ]
hmmm. That's not the way I read it, but ok. Assuming that it is also either .005 or .05 then:
6 slotted as before (even con SOs)
.011*14 = 15.4%
.11*14 = 154% !?!?!?
Soooo 15.4% + 11% = 26.4% Just for those! Nice!
Ok I dig. lol. That makes alot of sense then.
[/ QUOTE ]
Assuming Statesman was using that semi-colon correctly, the clause "Energy Absorption provides the same buff for every foe within melee range" must relate back to the previous clause. Otherwise, Statesman should have used two sentences.
/em EvilGeko is a geek. 
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So we're going back and changing the damage done by AV's so that it's no longer possible for a Tanker to be one shotted.
[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely fantastic news! Best thing I have seen since I5 hit test! I am very pleased to see this! Mostly for ice of course (I still have an Ice tank after my character purge of all non-I4 modified toons), but also for the invulns getting one-shotted by non-S/L AVs!
This in turn will help non-tanks too, since some lowering of that insane damage cannot be bad for them.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll have to do some further thinking on this, but reducing AV damage is something that I hope they think through carefully, given the ability of some non-tanker power sets to severely reduce the damage output of an AV through debuffs.
I just hope that when making changes to mobs to solve problems with one AT or powerset, that they consider the balance implications for other ATs and powersets.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
I think you may have misunderstood. I also think you're math is off (I'm sure someone will school me if I am too), but this is how I read it:
Wet Ice: .5% base Def
EA: .5% base Def per target, max 14 targets
Defense SOs give 20%. 20% of .5 = .1 boost per SO.
Wet Ice: 6 slotted all Def = .5 + (.1*6) = 1.1% Max Def
EA: 6 slotted all Def = (.5 + (.1*6))*14 = 15.4% Max Def
That's horrible. I wouldn't slot these at all with Defense.
10 slots for a combined increase of 15.5% Def. Completely not worth the investment.
You're better off slotting for damage and killing things fast before they destroy you.
EDIT: Because I messed up my own equation.
Here you go:
(.5 + .5 * .2 * 6) = 1.1% 6 slotted Defense from Wet Ice
(.5 + .5 * .2 * 6) * 14 = 15.4% 6 slotted Defense from EA, 14 Targets
Phantom Rose: Ill / Kin / Psi
Soleau: Ice / Icy / Ice / Core: Ice / Fire / Pyre / Wind / Eclipse / Flare / Corona
---------------
Solo Space
Wet Ice - six slotted with Defense SO's - provides about 3% defense.
Energy Absorption similarly slotted provides 3% per target (so a maximum of 42%).
*caveat - I'm doing this stuff from memory, so I'll doublecheck it and repost later if I'm wrong.*
[ QUOTE ]
The major disparity?
[/ QUOTE ]
Your comparisons on fire vs ice is quite spot-on, but I disagree. I think one of the major disparities is inspirations. There are a few times in the game most dangerous for someone tanking -- the initial alpha strike, collecting the herd (if herding), and dealing with AVs. I've been paying attention on live to how other tankers play (my only significant tanker is a 26 ice tanker), and I notice they fairly routinely use purple inspirations at the most dangerous times.
If you're talking about a comparison of RES versus DEF, the devs have to face that every character in the game can carry around a "force field lite" in their inspiration tray. They'll run through it too fast for constant use, but for those dangerous moments, the ones where ice tankers fear to tread? They'll have defenses at least as good as all the ice armors combined.
If there were simply resistance inspirations available, then it'd be easier to balance the sets. But until then, ice needs something a little more.
Edit: I know my ice tanker isn't very high level. Right now on live, in fact, I feel pretty darn tough, even without using EA. But when I'm with other tankers, I see how they can layer their total defenses, and I'm forced to just do more of the same.
Task Forces shouldn't need 8 people to start ... it's not fun.