[ QUOTE ]
Wet Ice - six slotted with Defense SO's - provides about 3% defense.
Energy Absorption similarly slotted provides 3% per target (so a maximum of 42%).
*caveat - I'm doing this stuff from memory, so I'll doublecheck it and repost later if I'm wrong.*
[/ QUOTE ]
Wet Ice at 0.5 * 0.2 = 0.1 per SO - 6 SOs would be 0.6 added to 0.5 is 1.1% defense - is not worth slotting.
EA with 0.5 * 0.2 = 0.1 - that is what an SO is worth
6 SOs is 0.6 added to 0.5 is 1.1 * 14 = 15.4% total defense with 14 mobs in melee - not worth it.
The testing shows negligible defense provided by Wet Ice and Energy Absorption. You confirmed it 
thx States! Now I am justified in making fun of my ice tank brethren
[ QUOTE ]
Because my tests would have shown had it been higher than 0.5, and I already had side confirmation (from a dev) that it was a miniscule amount. 1.36 would have registered in my tests especially since I was 5 slotted. 0.5 would not have registered, and since I didn't register anything for WI there you are.
[/ QUOTE ]
I know I'm supposed to only reply once here, but it just occurred to me - statesman keeps implying that defense/resist SOs are 33% (he seemed to in the sonic debuff thread, and then again here).
Is THAT the basis by which all defense/resist powers were reduced for issue 5? That they were supposedly getting a much larger boost from SOs? 33% versus 20% IS a big deal - a 120% boost versus a 200% boost for something six slotted.
A... 40% difference, in fact. Which seems to be what most defense powers were lowered by (save for ice armor, which got up to 90%, where wet ice is concerned). Hm... Call me paranoid...
No, he's just got the valuation of the SOs wrong.
They do something called on-average balancing when figuring what DEF to assign for a comparitive RES. They figure it generally against minions, which means you'll half of RES as DEF. But they need to set that higher generally since only minions have the 50% accuracy. Instead of making sure you're as durable as a RES based Tanker, they make sure that in general, vs most things, you're okay. But really you'll never be as durable.
Its a flawed system of balance.
[ QUOTE ]
One shotting by AV's. In a word, you are ALL correct. It's not a good thing for an Ice Tanker to be leveled by a single blow. So we're going back and changing the damage done by AV's so that it's no longer possible for a Tanker to be one shotted.
[/ QUOTE ]
I hope that goes for my Regen scrapper too 
I hope the Giant Monsters get toned down a bit too.
28 L50's on Freedom
L50 Time Titan WP/Stn, L50 Lord Time Titan Grv/Rad, L50 Super Hero USA DM/Rgn
L50 Decoy Master Ill/Rad, L50 Shield Slinger SD/Ice, L50 Super Heavyweight Stn/Nrg
L50 King's Jester Fire/Kin, L50 Winterchill Ice/SS, L50 Alberta Clipper Ice/Ice
L50 I Mastermind Bots/Dark, L50 MVP Invul/Nrg, L50 Steely Resolve Psi/MM
[ QUOTE ]
I know I'm supposed to only reply once here, but it just occurred to me - statesman keeps implying that defense/resist SOs are 33% (he seemed to in the sonic debuff thread, and then again here).
Is THAT the basis by which all defense/resist powers were reduced for issue 5? That they were supposedly getting a much larger boost from SOs? 33% versus 20% IS a big deal - a 120% boost versus a 200% boost for something six slotted.
[/ QUOTE ]
A VERY interesting point and something that really needs to be looked at as well as numerous PMs need to be sent asking this question as well to make sure it is seriously looked into.
Jack, I love man, I do. Thank you for posting and responding to concerns for this set. I have one question.
What kind of sense does it makes to give Invuln, the resist set, over twice as much defense as Ice, the defense based set?
And you guys aggrivated the situation further in Issue 5 by taking away most of Ice's defense, and yet leaving Invuln with most of theirs.
It's this simple
Invuln= high res, low def
Ice= low res high def.
what gives?
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
Thank you Statesman for the replies. 
This is my first reply to you and this thread.
I have to say thank you for finally looking at the poor ice tanker (I have a 30 ice/ice myself) and I am happy for the consideration you are giving. I was getting concerned seeing the first post followed by nothing for a week - I was wondering if this was just a bone thrown to pacify people into thinking they were getting looked at. I am glad it seems we are genuinely getting looked at.
First things first. I know these boards must be both a blessing and a curse for you with both helpful/constructive/informative posts followed by what seem like a non stop barrage of doooom and whining and complaints. So please ignore the later and focus on the former. Heck, even the negative posts are here for a reason - people care about their toons so changes to them are obviously taken seriously - although the posts themselves may not be helpful. Even the tone of the helpful posts I find in this thread are somewhat negative and demeaning but my opinion is it is just the frustration that people feel, rightly or wrongly, for having this set be a 'back burner' issue for so long. So please try and focus on the positives and don't let people's frustrations get you down.
Now then, here are my points/concerns/recommendations.
1) glad you are going to address the one shot issue; I don't know if you are going to do something specific to address it for just ice tanks but as mentioned above, to maintain balance with all the debuffers I am curious if you are just targetting ice tanks with some sort of 'alpha damage reduction coding'. Regardless, if I won't get alpha'd when I finally get to the 40s I will be very happy - I like a challenge but I hate a one shot face plant just like everyone else. Kudos for getting at what seems to be the number one ice tank issue.
2) I am not a numbers guy but Circeus seems to have many good points on our numbers. As a defence based toon, I cannot quite fathom why it is that our defence numbers are so low? As stands now on live for Chilly Chilli (my tank), things are a challenge and every now and then too much of a challenge. If wet ice is going to get a 90%ish decrease to make the defence part of it basically disappear, well, I don't know what to say but.....ouch ouch ouch ouch. I don't know how to get around it but my opinion is that if an Ice tank which is defence based can't top the defence numbers of other tanks which are not defence based that is just plain wrong. Heck, if a /sr scrapper can pop elude (I have one of those as well) and have way more defence than a tanker, that to me seems wrong as well. Our 'top power' when activated ought to be putting us on par with a /sr I would think or pretty close if you do not slam us with the elude crash. Can you please look at this.
3) I do not know about these EA changes but they seem very contradictory to me. You do not like herding. Ok. I do not go out looking to herd maps so no problem for me there. But in order for me to get any reasonable defence out of my ice tank I need to get 14 mobs around me? 
I am going to have to quasi herd. But with my defence having been slammed elsewhere (wet ice), I am quite dubious of my ability to even survive long enough to get a reasonable number of mobs around me to get to activate EA at all. Heck, one of the main things that will get me dead on live currently is me screwing this part up and getting a few too many and going to hit EA....late....and being dead.....only trying to get 5ish guys solidly around me. I cannot even imagine trying to get 14 around me to try and max out defence. I like the system as is for EA defence and it seems to be in line with not encouraging herding. I also like the ideas of say getting most of the defence from guy 1 and then less through the next 4 to still get to the same total - that seems to be a good system to help with tanking AVs when they are the only ones left because then we still will get an ok amount of defence from the last guy standing.
4) I guess by 'look' I would also encourage 'revamp'. I mean, if to make things 'right' in your mind that means slamming wet ice and EA please please feel free to change/buff/modify other things HEAVILY if need be to get us to a state where we can actually be a defence based set - not just one that is generally good but beaten out by others or can be beaten out handily by someone popping a purple luck. I really do feel marginalized by the fact that someone can 'buy themselves an ice tank' by spending 50 bucks on a purple pill. And a respec of course would be appreciated if a major revamp is put through.
5) For my game playing experience as an ice tanker, I want to be able to tank for my experienced supergroup on an 8 person team at invincible and not be expecting to die 3 times in a mission (a current optimistic post in tanker forums) or have to have cookie cutter teams with major buffers/debuffers loading me up. Heck, I want to be able to live on a crappy pick up team with 8 people on something a touch lower than invinceable. This is what I am hoping the devs are aiming for with my monthly subscription money.
So there you have it really. As I said, I am not the numbers guy.
Finally, I know us icers are relatively low profile given our low numbers. Put what that says into perspective though. If you value balance (which I think is what you are striving for), the fact that ice tanks are such a tiny part of the tanker population ought to be telling you something about their lack of balance. I hate to say it but in the minds of other players we are novelties that 'suck' and are 'not real tanks'. This is something that I am sure drives a lot of the negativity of the ice tanks and I hope can be addressed by making us suck less (uh, a buff if you prefer?? 
).
Do not get me wrong, in my 30 levels thus far I have not felt like my ice tank sucks but I know it is 'less than' the other tanks in many ways and I gather I5 is gonna potentially really make things 'challenging' to say the least. I see weaknesses, lots and lots of them coming my way with I5 and only one improvement with endurance relief via EA - uh, I think I would prefer the endurance issues back as I can manage them easier than I can manage the disappearing defence; unless popping purple pills is supposed to be part of my ice tanker regimen. I see defence disappearing which is the mainstay of the set and you can tell from the posts above that this is getting people, quite understandably, nervous/terrified/ticked off.
Please take some more time to look at us and strip out the positives from the plethora of good ice tanker ideas mentioned in many many of the posts above and then work on how best to implement them. I look forward to 20 levels of fun for Chilly Chilli and am optimistic that you are looking out for us. How about a goal - 10% of tanking population as......icers!
Regards,
yellowducky
Not entirely on topic here, but..
I have noted that this game has really made level mean something when it comes to accuracy and hitpoints, etc. Level-based bonuses are good ideas in most circumstances and I think it helps with balance overall, assuming the developers want the typical player to become progressively more efficient in most aspects as they level up.
I think alot of the problems with tankers could be solved with the following simple adjustment.
For each level, the tanker receives a .35% bonus to defense and resistance. So at level 10, all tankers would have a native 3.5% defense/resistance all. At level 30, 10.5% defense/resistance all. At level 50, 17.5% defense/resistance all.
This allows the developers to modify each tanker primary more liberally to suit their concept of the power set. Of course there is much more to tanker primaries than defense and resistance but it sure does help.
Something to complement this perhaps would be a proposed power added into all tanker primaries. Let's call it 'Streetwise' or something. A low-cost toggle or always-on(depending on the primary), ability that gives the same .35% bonus per level to all mez/hold/knockback etc effects. Basically all effects. It would still only amount to 17.5% at level 50, but it helps. Takes the edge off so even if a tanker primary is geared towards say mostly defense, that auto-on/toggle would be there to take the edge off. You would of course have to 6-slot this ability with SO to reap the full benefits here.
Of course, if I had my way I would have similar level-based adjustments to all archetypes, and this is not so much a stretch when you see the sweeping changes made to blasters recently(Defiance). Perhaps EACH archetype should be given it's own similar consideration to help it focus on what it is really meant to do while still allowing people to customize their builds with relative flexibility. Kheldians have similar concepts installed as well.
The possibilities are limitless, of course.
These proposals have far-reaching implications I know, but I believe they have merit.
[ QUOTE ]
thx States! Now I am justified in making fun of my ice tank brethren
[/ QUOTE ]
Hell I'm gonna start making fun of myself.
After reading Circeus analyses, which reconfirm his testing, my initial hopefulness has been dampened.
I am--once again--Shelved.
Isn't it kind of pointless to allow players to slot enhancements that make no measurable difference? I can't believe it's actually a plot to trick them into wasting slots and influence... I'd strongly suggest that if 3% DEF is the absolute limit of how powerful you can allow Wet Ice to be without unbalancing Ice Tankers, you just make it 3% and not take Def enhancements. Ditto for EA.
[ QUOTE ]
First - I didn't mean it to sound that the Accuracy reductions were the ONLY change forthcoming.
[/ QUOTE ]
Good to hear.
WI 6 slotted - 3% Def
I think this might be one of those powers which have a benefit so low that it should have the ability to slot def enhancements removed. Only players who read the boards will know not to slot def enhancers in this power.
If the base % for this power was raised to at least 3% then it would be worth keeping the option to slot it.
EI 6 slotted, 14 surrounding - 42% Def
I dont agree with any power that encourages/requires herding, but as it stands this power is still good.
Whether the correct number for a six-slotted Wet Ice is 3% or 1.1%, it is, quite literally, statistically insignificant. Allowing a power like that to be slotted for defense AT ALL is a total trap for anyone who doesn't read the boards regularly. Remember that thing you said about not letting players make uninformed decisions? Yes, that was cause for much mirth and frivolity, but even by the low, low standards set by the current power descriptions this is totally unjustifiable.
Also, on a more general note, it's all very well to say that defense fares better over time than res, but the fact is that def-based sets as a rule don't take damage over time. They take damage in raw, bloody chunks. The great benefit of res is that it is reliable, especially since comparatively few enemies have the means to reduce its effectiveness. Defense is a gamble, and the random number generator often stacks the deck. In the worst case scenario you're putting tanks--tanks! and I agree they needed to come down a notch or three, but come on--in a position where the HP bar has only two settings: on and off. I'm curious to know what the design team sees as the benefit to counterbalance that risk--especially if seven other people are riding on that gamble paying off. An entirely def-based set works for scrappers, who are frequently just watching out for themselves, but do you really think it works for people who are, by design, actively trying to be be shot and swung at all the time by as many foes as possible?
[ QUOTE ]
Isn't it kind of pointless to allow players to slot enhancements that make no measurable difference?
[/ QUOTE ]
Its a serious problem. We're told, by Statesman, that decisions in game should be informed decisions. Yet Wet Ice is now the mis-informed power by definition. It takes both RES and DEF enhancements (even in I5). And yet RES will only increase Cold RES which is unnecessary for an Ice Tank, and DEF is so marginalized on Wet Ice, its unfair to allow players to do this.
Yet a player who's not on the forums, is uninformed of all this. So they will try to slot the power in an effort to get it to function, but little do they know its not.
[ QUOTE ]
Wet Ice - six slotted with Defense SO's - provides about 3% defense.
Energy Absorption similarly slotted provides 3% per target (so a maximum of 42%).
*caveat - I'm doing this stuff from memory, so I'll doublecheck it and repost later if I'm wrong.*
[/ QUOTE ]
Horrible math apart, EVEN if we were able to reach YOUR numbers, that's too low of a number to be worth the slotting.
I knew you were going to come up with this "working as intended (tm)" bullsh*t, but deep down I was actually hopping for our defensive numbers to be a bug or a mistake.
EA just went from "that power that actually allow you to do some real tanking" to "that power that refuels your end since you have to 6 slot all of your armors with defense + wave with defense + tough with resistance + permafrost with resistance to be able to play your roll"... May as well just remove the option to slot EA with defense.
About AVs... That's a way to do it, but let me asure you that that option (Just like this whole I5 fiasco) it's just going to come back to bite you in the [censored].
And like I said many times before: Being 1 shotted by an AV is not that big of a problem as long as you have a good team with you and the AV is not higher then +2 to us, being 2-3 shotted is! And I5 is doing nothing to fix that! If anything it's just going to get worse... Unless of course you can get "the perfect team build", but with that "perfect team build" you have no use for a tanker.
One last thing, with the numbers you are giving for WI and EA we can now add a few defensive holes to our list:
- Psionic
- Fire
- AVs 1-3 shotting us
- High accuracy mobs *
- Mobs that lower defense *
(*) That is basically all of them now since we can barely cap even level MINIONS now... And don't give us that "what is your team doing (tm)" bullsh*t, you can't always get that perfect team build to compliment your holes... Unless of course you are thinking about implementing a "henchman" system a la Guild Wars.
[ QUOTE ]
For each level, the tanker receives a .35% bonus to defense and resistance. So at level 10, all tankers would have a native 3.5% defense/resistance all. At level 30, 10.5% defense/resistance all. At level 50, 17.5% defense/resistance all.
[/ QUOTE ]
We sort of already have that. Tankers have more HPs than anyone else, and we gain more HPs each time we level.
So that's a form of "resist all" that's already in there.
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, Wet Ice and Energy Absorption provide relatively small DEF buffs. This is not a bug and by design. Wet Ice provides a base defense of +.5%; Energy Absorption provides the same buff for every foe within melee range (up to a maximum of 14 targets).
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow. I'm really shocked to see this as "working as intended" and not a bug.
0.5% is not a bonus, it is less than the typical margin of error encountered when testing the base accuracy of minions against a completely unbuffed hero. The idea that an SO enhancement in such a power would provide a 0.1% bonus... wow.
[ QUOTE ]
One shotting by AV's. In a word, you are ALL correct. It's not a good thing for an Ice Tanker to be leveled by a single blow. So we're going back and changing the damage done by AV's so that it's no longer possible for a Tanker to be one shotted.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is great news, thanks for listening to us.
Please, instead of just lowering all AV damage by X%, could you consider taking a look at each AV and evaluating them on their own? Some actually need to be boosted in number of melee attacks (but not base damage). Examples would be Nemesis and Terra.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
Good deal on reducing the damge that can be done by AV's. Today, Neuron was hitting our guys for 2500+ damage - that's enough to one-shot any AT.
If these changes to WI & EA go live as is, I don't know if I'm going to bother with my Ice tank anymore. I might be able to survive for a while as long as I can avoid any missions that have fire damage mob's. But I don't see it being even close to fun anymore. I couldn't have fun with him on Live today because I knew what was in store for him. If I don't retire my tank I'll at least get back several slots to put to better use elsewhere since it will be pointless to add any to WE or EA anymore. (EA is still possibly useful, I haven't fully made up my mind on it yet) That might make me survivable as long as I stick to my Wife's scrapper's hip so she can kill everything for me quickly. But then she isn't going to be much help either since she's a regen scrapper and IH has had the crap kicked out of it.
Unfortunately these changes might be perfectly in line with the addition of "Sonic Resonance" With the ability to get +RES added on these changes aren't quite as bad. I'm sure there will be plenty of the new Power Set's out there once I5 goes live, but it won't always be possible to get a Sonic buffer/debuffer on your team. Are Ice tanks just supposed to sit around the train station waiting for one to log on that is willing to team with us? Again, that is far from fun.
We are the +DEF tanks. We should have the highest defence percentage avaliable (with out assistance, that is) And that is to everything (except Psi I guess), not just 4 damage types. I just can't agree with most of these changes even knowing and factoring in what I said in my 2nd paragraph. CoH is fun as is. Find other ways to stop herding. Finally realize 3 minions = 1 heroe isn't what the paying public wants.
There are many good ideas in this and other threads for Ice tanks. Please take them into consideration. (I really like Tanks getting an enherant +DEF and/or +RES that rises with level.)
In all seriousness, if you are still thinking that Ice Tanks are Defensive Build Tanks, then you are sorely mistaken.
States, I know that you told me that Ice Tanks were doing great in your tests, however I must insist that something else is wrong.
I took my Ice Tank into a malta mish and found that Malta rarely miss on the first shot. Especially sappers. When that happens, you are mezzed and unless you are lucky, you will remain mezzed thoughout the entire death scene.
I tried it solo set on the easiest setting and still died 3 times in the first room. I was mezzed the entire time (which I've been told won't happen) there were 3 sappers at the doors (which shouldn't happen) and their Accuracy was almost 100% (which shouldn't be).
Ice Tanks already suffer as PVP fodder due to low defensive values and now we will be PVE fodder.
I got 2 suggestions.
1. Officially retire Ice Tanks from the Tanker AT and allow current Ice Tanks a special Respec to re-roll as something else. This way we can be useful.
2. If you run an ice tank, just enter Costume Contests in Atlas Park.
If these numbers are even close to correct, our days of tanking are over. We might as well slot ourselves as a scranker and forgo all ice armor.
Talk about feeling inadequate! The only time I fealt good about being an Ice Tank was when they made ice armor stack.
[ QUOTE ]
About AVs... That's a way to do it, but let me asure you that that option (Just like this whole I5 fiasco) it's just going to come back to bite you in the [censored].
And like I said many times before: Being 1 shotted by an AV is not that big of a problem as long as you have a good team with you and the AV is not higher then +2 to us, being 2-3 shotted is! And I5 is doing nothing to fix that! If anything it's just going to get worse... Unless of course you can get "the perfect team build", but with that "perfect team build" you have no use for a tanker.
[/ QUOTE ]
My level 44 fire/ice was almost one shotted by a level 41 Clockwork king. Put me into the red zone and I have Portal Jockey and Freedom Phalanx for hit points boost. There might have been a few more that hit me at once since I didn't see the number. All I know is I had to hit Healing Flames as quick as possible. I should have looked at the numbers afterwards on combat but I only just thought of it just now as I was typing so this either proves your point or validates mine.
I'm having a big problem as well with the trivial nature of enhancements on the newly balanced defense.
Just for fun here's an idea: change all training/dual/single origin enhancements to be .5%, 1%, 2% respectively. Then just set the defense percentages about where you want them to stay and they will. In fact, just set all powers just under where you want them to be, and even 6-slotted they won't fluctuate more than 12%.
There, problem solved. Nobody needs to bother about customizing their heroes, but you won't have to worry about anything breaking the game.
Of course, how much fun and enjoyment would we get from that? About the same as we'll get from the trivial defense enhancement scheme you're currently looking at.
***I simply cannot see any reason to slot at all if there is no PERCEIVABLE benefit.***
-Sandolphan
"When heroes fail, the Angels will save you."
MASTERMIND NUMERIC KEYPAD PET CONTROLS
HAMIDON NUKE RAID GUIDE
[ QUOTE ]
Wet Ice provides a base defense of +.5%;
Wet Ice - six slotted with Defense SO's - provides about 3% defense.
[/ QUOTE ]And where, pray tell, does a player purchase the +83% enhancements you're using? In the City of Heroes game the rest of us are playing, turning an 0.5 base into 3.0 would require not six defense SOs, but twenty-five defense SOs.
Congratulations on once again being totally unaware of one of the most basic game mechanics. This seems to happen frequently.
Suggestion: Don't change the AV damage, change the tank HP. Let them 1 shot everyone else, thats fine. Let tanks be tanks and give them more HP to be that tank.
@PlasmaStream
"Big Bada Boom(tm)!"
1295 Badges
http://GuardianForce.Guildportal.com - Virtue
Niska: Are you Familiar with the works of Shan Yu?
Why are you people thanking him? Now rad and dark defenders can out tank an ice tank. They only need one power to do that. I have been supportive up until now. But no longer will I sit calmly by and let a set be neutered. What happened to not have to take a pool powers to our jobs? We have the facts and now its time for angry PM's and replies. Keep yelling and screaming. Start new treads everywhere and keep them coming. Over work the mods.