[ QUOTE ]
Wet Ice - six slotted with Defense SO's - provides about 3% defense.
Energy Absorption similarly slotted provides 3% per target (so a maximum of 42%).
*caveat - I'm doing this stuff from memory, so I'll doublecheck it and repost later if I'm wrong.*
[/ QUOTE ]
Wait... that sounds exactly like you're assuming defense SO enhancements provide a 33% increase rather than a 20% increase. I'm confused.
Ok, first, let me point out that I don't have an Ice tank. But, this got me a bit ... interested. (Also, I would point out I have yet to express DOOOOOOOMMMMMMM over I5, either.)
0.5 defense (*5 SO Slots) = 0.5 *2 = 1% defense
So, WI gives 1% defense w/ 4 slots added (5 total) with defense enhances. EA gives 1% defense per mob (up to 14) for a max of 14% with 4 slots added (5 total).
Now, I'm underwhelmed by EA's defense, but at least it totals up to something non-trivial. However, the 1% defense from a slotted up WI is ... trivial. Trivial may be an understatement.
Why not just drop the defense and drop it taking defense enhancements?
*edit: My quoting skills stink so I dropped it out.
[ QUOTE ]
Wet Ice - six slotted with Defense SO's - provides about 3% defense.
Energy Absorption similarly slotted provides 3% per target (so a maximum of 42%).
*caveat - I'm doing this stuff from memory, so I'll doublecheck it and repost later if I'm wrong.*
[/ QUOTE ]
That would have to put the base per mob at ~1.35 defense, since defense buffs run 5/10/20%...
[ QUOTE ]
Wait... that sounds exactly like you're assuming defense SO enhancements provide a 33% increase rather than a 20% increase. I'm confused.
[/ QUOTE ]
Even at 33% you wouldn't be getting those numbers if the base is 0.5%.
I'm going to speculate 1.33% base Defense based on Statesman's last post.
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Caulderone, please fix your post.
Phantom Rose: Ill / Kin / Psi
Soleau: Ice / Icy / Ice / Core: Ice / Fire / Pyre / Wind / Eclipse / Flare / Corona
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Solo Space
Thank you for the response States!! Much appreciated!
I do have a question I'd like your insight about though:
With Wet Ice providing such a miniscule amount of Defense (3% 6-slotted is terrible), do you think it's in line with the Mezz resist powers that the 3 other Tank powersets get?
Ice Armor - Wet Ice - .5% Defense base, enhanceable up to 3% (that match still doesn't make any sense to me) - No penalty aside from End cost.
Invul - Unyielding (approx) 9% Resistance base, enhanceable up to 19.8 resistance - Def Debuff penalty
Stone - Rooted - Health regen (DK the #s here) - Slow and -Travel powers penalty
Fire - Both Shields - Gives them all of their resistance - Penalty=no knockback protection
[ QUOTE ]
Wet Ice - six slotted with Defense SO's - provides about 3% defense.
Energy Absorption similarly slotted provides 3% per target (so a maximum of 42%).
*caveat - I'm doing this stuff from memory, so I'll doublecheck it and repost later if I'm wrong.*
[/ QUOTE ]
If 0.5% for each is correct, I believe your calculations are off.
(the following calculations use +3 Single Origin enhancements)
Wet Ice: 0.5% base + (0.5 * (6 * 0.23)) = 1.19% 6-slotted
Energy Absorption: 0.5% base + (0.5 * (6 * 0.23)) = 1.19% * 14 = 16.66% 6-slotted maximum against 14 opponents
Now, Energy Absorption can be stacked on itself if you take some of that defense slotting and replace it with recharge, but that lowers the total bonus per power application.
Does anyone see anything wrong with my calculations?
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, Wet Ice and Energy Absorption provide relatively small DEF buffs. This is not a bug and by design. Wet Ice provides a base defense of +.5%; Energy Absorption provides the same buff for every foe within melee range (up to a maximum of 14 targets).
[/ QUOTE ]
I *think* he means that wet ice is 5% (or a very low value that is hard to detect) and that Energy Absorbption is a 1/2% defense boost from up to 14 mobs (or another 7% unslotted.)
If it accepts defense slotting, you can probably double that up to 14% with 14 mobs.
So that's a theoretical 19% more to the base defense, which IIRC actually gets them up there to about 57%.
With the other changes to accuracy (and the fact that AV and Rulari are the highest accuracy at 75% and everything else is either 50% or 65% base, that means that an Ice tanker could theoretically get down to nearly 5% base to hit against almost any mob, which sounds a bit better.
That starts dropping off radically at +1 and aboves of course.
Perhaps another change so that they have a power that is short duration but can provide up to 10% (unslotted) defense more and 20% fully slotted, but in such a situation that it is only available as a "deep" trouble button?
[ QUOTE ]
One shotting by AV's. In a word, you are ALL correct. It's not a good thing for an Ice Tanker to be leveled by a single blow. So we're going back and changing the damage done by AV's so that it's no longer possible for a Tanker to be one shotted.
[/ QUOTE ]
Good to hear, as that means squishies won't die.
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I hear the complaints about Permafrost. And I'm...thinking. I've read many suggestions - and gotten more than a few PM's about it. There's a lot of good ideas there. So I'm going to do some pondering there.
[/ QUOTE ]
I hope we can help! 
Still here, even after all this time!
[ QUOTE ]
Wet Ice - six slotted with Defense SO's - provides about 3% defense.
Energy Absorption similarly slotted provides 3% per target (so a maximum of 42%).
*caveat - I'm doing this stuff from memory, so I'll doublecheck it and repost later if I'm wrong.*
[/ QUOTE ]
Defense buffs (and resistance ones) are 5%/10%/20% so your numbers are off a bit I think.
One thing to remember is that Wet Ice has a resistance component that is supposed to be much stronger than it's defense part.
It sounds like the defense is a bit *too* low, myself. But not by a lot.
Still here, even after all this time!
[ QUOTE ]
Wet Ice - six slotted with Defense SO's - provides about 3% defense.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which means that when it's six-slotted with Training Enhancements, the defense it provides is effectively non-existent.
Since Wet Ice is the sole source of +DEF vs. Energy and Negative Energy attacks for 12 levels, and the sole source of +DEF vs. Fire for 20 levels, having essentially zero defense vs. these damage types will severely impair the ability of low- and mid-level tankers to tank Outcasts and Clockwork, to name the two most common sources of Fire and Energy attacks from levels 6-20. Post 20, until they hit 26th and can pick up Energy Absorption, the Ice tanker will run into Council Flamethrower and Sky Raider Flamethrower units with some regularity. Especially if they do the 24-34 Terra Volta respec trial.
Which means that, when tanking those MOBs, Ice Tankers will simply be relying on their larger number of hit points to survive. Which puts them at a serious disadvantage compared to other tanks in the same level range.
I can live with the changes to EA. But, assuming your "3% defense with 6 SOs" comment is on the money, please reconsider the changes to Wet Ice.
[ QUOTE ]
Wet Ice - six slotted with Defense SO's - provides about 3% defense.
Energy Absorption similarly slotted provides 3% per target (so a maximum of 42%).
*caveat - I'm doing this stuff from memory, so I'll doublecheck it and repost later if I'm wrong.*
[/ QUOTE ]
3/2.2= 1.36% Defense Base
I'm now officially confused. 
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
errr anyway, may it be 0.5% , 3% or 1 %...
That sounds ridiculous to me lol, i would never pick a power that gives so few defense, or if i needed the power for something else, i would certainly not 6 slot it.. 3% , how lame lol
Are we still in a super hero game ? or did we just migrate to microcosmos so 3% is Tanker like ? lol , sorry
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, Wet Ice and Energy Absorption provide relatively small DEF buffs. This is not a bug and by design. Wet Ice provides a base defense of +.5%; Energy Absorption provides the same buff for every foe within melee range (up to a maximum of 14 targets).
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, can I then point black tell you that your design is flawed, and I suggest you go back to the drawing board and come up with something much better. You seriously need to put this into perspective because that is a serious load of horse hockey, so let me help you out there...
Let me see... (just DEF for a moment, and even SOs)
Frozen Armor: S/L 15% base, 33% 6 slotted
Glacial Armor: E/N 15% base, 33% 6 slotted
Wet Ice: All but Psi 0.5% base, 1.1% 6 slotted (who would bother)
Energy Absorption: All but Psi 0.5% base, 1.1% 6 slotted, works vs 14 targets maximum, 15.4% total
So, at best... with 14 targets, Ice is looking at (even throwing in a 6 slotted Permafrost):
S/L/E/N DEF: 49.5%
F/C DEF: 16.5%
Cold RES: 134%
Fire RES: 32%
plus CE which equates to about 15-20% RES melee only
Invuln Tankers for DEF get:
Tough Hide: base 5% DEF (no AoE/Psi), 11% slotted
Invincibility: base 3.5% DEF melee (no Psi), 7.7% slotted, max 14 targets, 107.8% total melee, and if the ratio for range is the same that's 61.08% total range (its 120/68 now on live)
plus their RES
so Invuln Tankers get 118.8% DEF melee (no Psi), and 72.08% ranged (no Psi), no AoE
How about Invuln Scrappers:
Tough Hide: base 3.75% DEF (no AoE/Psi), 8.25% slotted
Invincibility: base 2.625% DEF (no AoE/Psi), 5.775% slotted, max 14 targets, 80.85% total melee, 45.815% total range
plus their RES
so Invuln Scrappers get 89.1% DEF melee (no Psi), and 54.065% ranged (no Psi), no AoE
So both Invulns beat Ice Tanker DEF for both melee (by a lot) and range.
Let me continue to tell you why it sucks though.
It assumes maximum slotting for DEF on all counts.
EA 6 slotted for DEF is only up 75% of the time. Thats right, 45s duration, 60s recharge. So 25% of the time, Ice could not even maximize their DEF and it will still be lower than Invuln.
I seriously want you to take the time to justify that design for the community. These changes will kill Ice Tanks.
[ QUOTE ]
One shotting by AV's. In a word, you are ALL correct. It's not a good thing for an Ice Tanker to be leveled by a single blow. So we're going back and changing the damage done by AV's so that it's no longer possible for a Tanker to be one shotted.
[/ QUOTE ]
Good, while you're at it, AVs should not be allowed to do Criticals, period. Set their attacks high, but don't allow them crits. Because when you do both that will be a problem.
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I hear the complaints about Permafrost. And I'm...thinking. I've read many suggestions - and gotten more than a few PM's about it. There's a lot of good ideas there. So I'm going to do some pondering there.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, well like I said above, you need not to just go back to the drawing board, you need an entire new drawing board.
I think the trouble is the original number. not +.5%, but rather should be 1.5%. or +1.5%. that gives around a 3% total and missed keystrokes late at night are easier to explain than creative math. ;-)
that said, 1.5% just ain't worth slotting at all.
It would get a little better if Def enhances were upped to 8/16/33 levels. Is 1 slot worth .5% defense? eh... maybe.
[ QUOTE ]
Wet Ice - six slotted with Defense SO's - provides about 3% defense.
Energy Absorption similarly slotted provides 3% per target (so a maximum of 42%).
*caveat - I'm doing this stuff from memory, so I'll doublecheck it and repost later if I'm wrong.*
[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, here is my entire problem with the Defense and Resistance changes: When someone initially gets one of the new powers, such as Wet Ice, or maybe a better example is some of the SR stuff like Focused Fighting....the un-SO-enhanced versions are literally worthless. Now, Wet Ice is mostly there for status, of course, and the defense is a bonus. But seriously, is Defense so sacred that anyone, anywhere would spend FIVE additional slots for 2% defense?!?!? The SR versions, the passives especially, will have ZERO effect on combat while unenhanced, or even enhanced with Training or DO's.
These powers need to have higher base values, and set enhance caps for each one. If you don't want Wet Ice to have more than 3% defense (altho I'm still assuming that there is a decimal off somewhere, cos, I mean....3%?), then set it at a decent base and make players spend 1 or 2 slots to cap the power.
These super low base values on defense (and, to an extent, resistance) are going to make the teens and twenties into hell on earth for any tanker or scrapper. Period.
p.s. Also, while you are thinking of Permafrost, don't forget it has a brother in Temperature Protection in the Fire set.
[ QUOTE ]
Wet Ice - six slotted with Defense SO's - provides about 3% defense.
Energy Absorption similarly slotted provides 3% per target (so a maximum of 42%).
*caveat - I'm doing this stuff from memory, so I'll doublecheck it and repost later if I'm wrong.*
[/ QUOTE ]
You're wrong. Basic math. You told us they're 0.5%.
0.5 * 2.2 = 1.1%
To be 3% it'd have to be 1.36% base.
[ QUOTE ]
Wet Ice - six slotted with Defense SO's - provides about 3% defense.
Energy Absorption similarly slotted provides 3% per target (so a maximum of 42%).
*caveat - I'm doing this stuff from memory, so I'll doublecheck it and repost later if I'm wrong.*
[/ QUOTE ]
So.....umm....why exactly does both Wet Ice and Energy Absorption sound so piddy right now? Just hearing the numbers flat out like that just made me want to delete my level 6 ice tank. Can someone give me a reason to hold back on that? Anyone?
Bueller?
Save the drama for yo' mama.
[ QUOTE ]
Wet Ice - six slotted with Defense SO's - provides about 3% defense.
Energy Absorption similarly slotted provides 3% per target (so a maximum of 42%).
*caveat - I'm doing this stuff from memory, so I'll doublecheck it and repost later if I'm wrong.*
[/ QUOTE ]
Since I only 'officially' have one post, I'm going to ask a lot of questions of you, for what it's worth.
First of all, this is the second place you've implied that defense SOs offer a 33% boost instead of just the 20% now. Is this or is this not the case? All the defense sets (force field, super reflex, ice armor) are doing a LOT worse than you seem to think if this is not, in fact, what is going on.
And nothing in the test server updates note a magical upgrade to defense SOs.
Secondly. How do you justify giving ice armor two additional weaknesses? With you reducing the defense boost of wet ice by NINETY PERCENT, you remove what little fire defense (not resist, but +def) that the ice armor set gets before EA.
This also wrecks the cold +def, but really, that's irrelevant.
AND, with EA smashed down to almost nothing (because we're not SUPPOSED to have 14 guys in melee now, right?) this also cuts the amount of fire defense ice armor gets - not to mention toxic defense.
Without a meaningful defense boost from energy absorption, ice tankers get no toxic defense to speak of. So since ice tankers are still stuck with an absolute vulnerability to psionic attack for absolutely no reason that isn't arbitrary or poorly thought out, they now ALSO get to deal with having little if any defense against fire and toxic attack. And an incredibly small amount of resistance to such, here and there, most of which they cannot enhance.
So tell me, how can you justify this sudden tripling of ice armor's already serious weaknesses? How is this balanced? Have you given fire tankers two more categories of damage they have minimal protection from? Or stone tankers? I hesitate to say invulnerable also got by without this, but their armors DID take a severe hit, when the mainstays of fire and stone are still alive and well.
And though I have many other questions, I'm going to leave you with this. Do you think, with all honesty, that you can play an ice tanker on an eight man task force, especially out in the shadow shard, and TANK for the team? And I'm talking random pick-up group here, not one that happens to include cookie-cutter rosters that include a bubbler and/or sonic guy?
And if you do think so, go for it, and let me know how it turned out.
[ QUOTE ]
Wet Ice - six slotted with Defense SO's - provides about 3% defense.
[/ QUOTE ]
Muahahaha, and I thought slotting up a passive base 7.5% resistance power was worthless. 
[ QUOTE ]
You're wrong. Basic math. You told us they're 0.5%.
[/ QUOTE ]
first.... dude, chill.
ok, now what if you accept the second set of numbers (3% and 42%) and assume the .5% was mistaken? would your totals look better?
States,
This last set of numbers is contradictory with the first set of numbers you posted (i.e. Wet Ice of .5% base is not equal to 3% six slotted, and the same for Energy Absorption per mob). Could you clarify which set of numbers is correct? Or maybe one of the "numbers guys" could clear this up.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're wrong. Basic math. You told us they're 0.5%.
[/ QUOTE ]
first.... dude, chill.
ok, now what if you accept the second set of numbers (3% and 42%) and assume the .5% was mistaken? would your totals look better?
[/ QUOTE ]
Because my tests would have shown had it been higher than 0.5, and I already had side confirmation (from a dev) that it was a miniscule amount. 1.36 would have registered in my tests especially since I was 5 slotted. 0.5 would not have registered, and since I didn't register anything for WI there you are.
JESUS!!!!
.5 % defense?? I thought it was a bug.. dear god... why do they bother to say that power offers defense?
[ QUOTE ]
One shotting by AV's. In a word, you are ALL correct. It's not a good thing for an Ice Tanker to be leveled by a single blow. So we're going back and changing the damage done by AV's so that it's no longer possible for a Tanker to be one shotted.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thank You! 
My biggest concern was answered.
[ QUOTE ]
So both Invulns beat Ice Tanker DEF for both melee (by a lot) and range.
[/ QUOTE ]
We need an answer on this one.
The Dark Blade
"I've felt your mouse on me before, you perv...." - Troy Hickman
Paragon Wiki
So, we're sorta moving in the right direction with the lowering of the AV damage. But, Ice as a set is still at a serious disadvantage to all the other sets.
1. Other tank sets can get more defense than Ice (the Defense) tanks. Addressed by Circeus up above.
2. We still have 2 weakness, Fire and Psychic. Fire has really become a weakness with the changes to EA and Wet Ice.
3. PvP, we're a walking obliterate me sign still. Our defenses are pretty much overcome by the 1 Accuracy SO everyone sticks in their attacks.
Anyway, thanks for working with us States and good luck to your brother.
[ QUOTE ]
Wet Ice - six slotted with Defense SO's - provides about 3% defense.
Energy Absorption similarly slotted provides 3% per target (so a maximum of 42%).
*caveat - I'm doing this stuff from memory, so I'll doublecheck it and repost later if I'm wrong.*
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks. That would be greatly appreciated
Phantom Rose: Ill / Kin / Psi
Soleau: Ice / Icy / Ice / Core: Ice / Fire / Pyre / Wind / Eclipse / Flare / Corona
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Solo Space