Well my outlook for I5 has changed from cautiously optimistic to disappointed. With these changes working 'as intended' then I'm afraid I'm going to shelve my Ice Tank.
Taking him out on the test server it has become quite readily apparent that I can no longer perform my job as a Tanker. I am in fact a sub-par Super Reflexes Scrapper with rubbish damage.
The main problems (as I see them) are:
Wet Ice give .5% Def, that's just unacceptable I'm afraid, WI is the cornerstone of the early level Ice Tank powers, it gives us our Mez Protection and enough defense so that when stacked with Frozen Armour we can actually tank stuff. We can't do that anymore.
Energy Absorbtion, 3% Bonus per target but up to 14 targets. This is a joke, with our defenses neutered the way they are we'd be lucky to survive longer than the animation time with 14 targets in range.
I was hoping that Ice Tanks would be made better, not worse, by the I5 changes but it would appear that once again we are overlooked and our concerns are ignored.
I have really enjoyed playing my Ice Tank up to now, it's been incedible fun to be a 'different' kind of Tanker and to have a different way to handling tanking but that has been removed now.
I would suggest, as I believe has been mentioned before, that you just remove the Ice armour set from the game as it is obviously not intended to played in any serious manner.
Ok, first prob. w/ EA was that it encurages herding in order to get the best defense possible, which is now no longer going to be possible, because we'll be dead before getting that many together.
Also if, like my SG you play hardest setting getting lvl 54 infernal av's. um yeah, i can barely hold em now, if not for a second tank the team gets wiped from existence.
Wet Ice is now only good for not getting knockbacked, held, and so on.
I personally think the Ice armors should be left alone as in issue 4. Cause you are heading in the wrong dirrection for these changes, Ice tanks are now being force to go for tough and weave just to pick up the defense and little resistance.
I may just fully cap out the damage on my char. instead since my defense won't matter anmore 
I'm also running around now getting all the badges i can before issue5 comes cause i don't think i'll be able to do much once its out, and I REALLY LIKE PLAYING MY ICE TANK!
Cireus, what are the numbers we are getting now (issue 4) compared to the new numbers?
(Close my eyes cause i don't want to really know)
Im wondering what the rationale is for the scope of the reductions in Ice armor . I always believed that most people thought of Ice as the weakest tanker set. But for some reason, the set most in need of help seems to have taken the biggest hit in I5.
I got some numbers from CoH Vault just to give myself a general idea on the scope of the reductions (they may be off a bit). Issue 5 numbers are taken from what I've seen posted here on the boards.
Power | Issue 4 | Issue 5
-------- --------- ---------
Frozen Armor | 25% S/L | 15% S/L
Glacial Armor | 25% Eng/Neg | 15% Eng/Neg
Wet Ice | 9% S/L/C/F | .5% all but Psi?
12.5% Eng/Neg
Keep in mind that you cannot take Glacial Armor until level 18. How is an Ice tank supposed to fight clockwork now? Even with the enemy accuracy changes, Ice tanks are naked in the breeze against anything but smashing, lethal, and cold until level 18 in Issue 5.
I hope I havent come off as overly critical in this post. It must be really difficult to try rebalancing a whole game and keep balance between the powersets and ATs at the same time. I just hope Ice tanks will come out of I5 comparatively better than they were in I4.
I just have one simple question. IN a patch thats main purpose is to limit the number of enemies we can survive against, why would you change a power so that its only useful if you have a large group.
While you ponder this heres another helms in the arena video. Again no acc buffs used. This is what we call balance people.
Helms Vs. EM Tank
I did have an actual match with him. He started dancing while my 500 attacks finally got him red life.
I keep hearing this, Ice tanks have tested well stuff. I'd like to see some footage of this. Cause as far as I'm concerned its either fight greys or delete character if this goes through
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It's this simple
Invuln= high res, low def
Ice= low res high def.
what gives?
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In reality it is more like:
Invuln: low resits high def
Ice: no resits low def
Certainly not balanced, and not really working concept wise either. *shrug* 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's this simple
Invuln= high res, low def
Ice= low res high def.
what gives?
[/ QUOTE ]
In reality it is more like:
Invuln: low resits high def
Ice: no resits low def
Certainly not balanced, and not really working concept wise either. *shrug*
[/ QUOTE ]
Too elementary lads, it's more like:
Invul:
Sm, Le resist =
Defense =
Other resists = 
Ice
Sm, Le resists =
Defense =
Other resists=
Fire
Sm, Le resists =
Defense =
Other resists =
Stone
Sm, Le resists = 
Defense =
Other resists =
BUT
speed, recharge debuff =
--------------------
Not sure how balanced that is.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Thanks Jack for replying to the many, many people who have asked for a response.
Now, to the meat.
Hpnestly, y so low on the defense???? This isnt a good thing for the worst tank in the game... If its to be the defense king, give it thunder not a kitten's meow... .5% def in Wet ice?????
I still boggle at that statement. Give them Invulnerablilities Def at least and some passive res in permafrost vs. all... maybe 10-15%... not a lot but certainly decent enough to take some of those AV shots. Heck make all the armors 15% def and 5% resist vs. their apropriate damage and we will call it a day.
ALso, on Hibernate, any word on how that is being handled because it is a source of complaint.
Thank You for your time.
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One shotting by AV's. In a word, you are ALL correct. It's not a good thing for an Ice Tanker to be leveled by a single blow. So we're going back and changing the damage done by AV's so that it's no longer possible for a Tanker to be one shotted.
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Unless you can make this change just for when they target Ice Tankers, this is only going to create other problems. Granite Armor already allows you to tank all but psychic AVs with only a little risk, this will eliminate that risk altogether. And, if the Tanker is experienced enough to know how to keep aggro despite being slow as molasses, that would mean eliminating the risk to the entire party unless excessive AoE/Cone attacks were in use.
Now I realize and very appreciate the fact that this is what Granite Armor was made to do, to stand in one place against one foe and take a truly exceptional amount of damage. But I don't think you want to make a change that will sap the risk out of AV combat (though at the moment I can't remember the last time a decent team I was on lost a member to an AV).
Since most of these alpha shots happen to be ranged, could you add a Damage Resistance to ranged attacks for Ice Tankers? Or perhaps an uber, short duration, very long recharge hit point buff?
And this continues to ignore the defense vs. accuracy PvP problem. A capped defense is absolutely useless when your opponent's enhancements and buffs pump him over 200%.
Scorus
Hello Dev's, with I5 comming up why is the all the defense powers getting turn down on all ATs? If you are going to decrease all the defense powers then why don't you turn down the endurance cost or include extra damage to allow for the reduction of defense powers. Why not fix the Ice set for tankers? It would be good set if it was balance like invul or Fire. That bring another question why is Dark Armor not being look at? It need major repair it use to much endurance, plus the defense power of dark armor are not inline with the other scrapper defense powers As well as the Super reflexs, I am not going to say I am going to quit COH I will adapt and overcome!! Sorry I know this is the Ice tanker thread, I think you should reduce the endurance usage and give extra damage for the attack to allow for the reduction of defense.
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Yet a player who's not on the forums, is uninformed of all this. So they will try to slot the power in an effort to get it to function, but little do they know its not.
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There are powers that accept damage enhancements yet do almost no damage. for example, many holds.
And yet, players are informed about that because a) you can see damage numbers when they hit. b) the power description says "damage: minor".
What players will need to see is a qualitative description on each defense/resist power. Ice Armore says "Defense: Average", Wet Ice says "Defense: Negligable"
but for so little defense unslotted, why have it at all? Just remove the defense aspect of WI and then rebalance the End cost for a Defense-less WI.
You should actually think about taking the defense buff from Wet Ice. Given your policy to not share numbers unless absolutely necessary, most players will never know they are slotting up for almost no defense. It is, at best, misleading to claim that people using this power will gain a real defense bonus.
I'm not sure why you bothered with a .5% when you gave pool powers like Hasten 5%.
Scorus
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Wet Ice - six slotted with Defense SO's - provides about 3% defense.
Energy Absorption similarly slotted provides 3% per target (so a maximum of 42%).
*caveat - I'm doing this stuff from memory, so I'll doublecheck it and repost later if I'm wrong.*
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I'm going to go on a limb and ask something here. Does it make any sense to even have a bonus under 3%? Do you really think it will even be noticed? I'm not sure there should even been any bonuses under 5%!! And it takes 6 slots to hit 3%? Do you think that 6 slots for 3% is a worthy investment? I don't care if it's Ice Tanks or Regen Scrappers or Illusion Controllers, I would suggest you try running a power with a 3% bonus and then running it again without the bonus to see if you can tell. I mean really, why bother plugging the number into the code at all?
The absolute worst part about this is that some poor soul may actually try to 6 slot the power because they didn't see this posts or read the forums. I pity that player who spends slots on the power, saves up influence in the 20s and 30s to keep it updated with SOs, only to sit there and wonder why they don't seem to get any DEF bonus from it. Until the day someone tells them and they feel like a complete fool.
Look, if you insist on putting in bonuses that are 1% base, do the non-forum browsing player a favor and take away the ability to enhance it. I still think it's a total waste of coding cycles to even have that number in the calculations. The only thing that could be worse is if some poor player actually wasted time and effort to 6 slot such a power.
Well, I've deleted my level 35 Ice tank, so I probably don't have any right to post here. But looking at the numbers...whether it's 0.5% or 1.3%, either way it means that Ice tanks are going to be a complete joke.
I've said it before and had it ignored before. Defense is very inferior to resistance. In order for defense-based sets to compete, the defense must be overwhelmingly high. The I4 Ice Armor values were just about equal in power with the other tank sets in I5.
The new I5 numbers, though...it's a joke. I'm going to start referring to Ice tanks as 'Glass' tanks from now on.
...
New Webcomic -- Genocide Man
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
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Isn't it kind of pointless to allow players to slot enhancements that make no measurable difference?
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Its a serious problem. We're told, by Statesman, that decisions in game should be informed decisions. Yet Wet Ice is now the mis-informed power by definition. It takes both RES and DEF enhancements (even in I5). And yet RES will only increase Cold RES which is unnecessary for an Ice Tank, and DEF is so marginalized on Wet Ice, its unfair to allow players to do this.
Yet a player who's not on the forums, is uninformed of all this. So they will try to slot the power in an effort to get it to function, but little do they know its not.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have been ragging on the poor power descriptions in this game for awhile and if they don't change the description to say "SLOTTING THIS WITH DEFENSE IS STUPID BUT GO AHEAD IF YOU WANT" I am going to be rather disappointed.
Actually, if they don't start actually allowing players to see what the numbers are, I am going to be disappointed. Let it be on a seperate screen that you have to click on to see if you want to protect people that don't want to see the numbers and just like to create characters with vague descriptions that don't mean a single thing and are completely subjective. Let those of us who care about our characters and want to build a concept character actually have the numbers so we know if a power fits our concept. Ignorance, in the face of questions, leads to unhappiness.
What really pisses me off is that they reduced the base ability of this power. Basically we get the power and then have to wait several levels before it actually becomes something usefull. Genius design there.
From an RP standpoint I could see you making the arguement that when a player first picks up a power he does not know how to use it or does not have the tech tuned properly to get the full effect out of it. I can see that arguement.
Let me just say that if a power doesn't provide a noticeable ability to your character it just isn't a superpower. Nerfing the top end of powers is great, nerfing the base of powers makes you feel less Super. People hate feeling less Super. Second, if a power requires heavy slotting for it to be effective how will the player who doesn't read the boards know that?
Really if they activate EA and all they see is an endurance buff how will they know that they can six slot it for defense and get a reasonable defense buff out of it?
PS. I started out referring to Ninja but ended up referring to states in the end.
Post Deleted due to my lack of good sense...bah, I hate when I check myself and don't feel right about what I said.
On the low base defence of wet ice: I really do sypathize with the developers about how hard it can be to balance the powers. What drives me nuts is when a change to a power just seems so madly crazy wrong it defies all logic. well, my logic anyway. one problem we have here is that peole have different ideas about what makes sense. I will fight to my dying breath that invuln should have no defence, and that fire tanks should be the resist tank. But I also know everyone will not agree even though that makes perfect logical sense to me.
Remember that the developers will naturally cling to most of theier early ideas, even if those are flat out wrong/less than ideal. (not an attempt to bash the devs, most people including me are just like that, its reality)
The return on investments for slotting defense on Wet Ice with those numbers is so trivial that a player would be gimping themselves to slot it. Yet many uninformed players will do exactly that. The thought that this game could go from powers like Combat Jumping having secondary defense benifits of 5% to a game where the defense benefit to a Tanker Primary is only 0.5 % (10 TIMES LOWER) makes it pretty clear that the "Super Hero" concept has been thrown into the shredder.
Think about what you are doing! With 6 enhancements to an offensive power I can use that power to arrest somebody 3 times faster. With a defense buff of 0.5 I can use 6 enhancement slots to avoid less than 1 shot in 20. The complete and utter imbalance there astonishes me.
For a more similar example Clear Mind and Fortitude can be used by an Empathy defender to give anybody the same protection that Wet Ice gives an Ice defender. Fortitude provides over 20% defense compared to the Wet Ice+Glacial Armor+Frozen Armor defense of 16% and Fortitude also works against Psi and Fire. Clear mind provides roughly equivalent status protection to Wet Ice. The imbalance here means that teams will be much better off with an Empathy Defender than with an Ice Tank. I sure hope that is not your goal.
Nogala
Just so the percentage decreases are represented properly (because people aren't throwing around the actual numbers)...
Old EA: 18.75% * 5 = 93.75%
New EA: 0.5% * 14 = 7%
% Remaining: 7 / 93.75 = 7.47%
% Loss: 92.53%
gained Endurance Recovery
Old WI vs E/N: 12.5%
Old WI vs S/L/C/F: 9%
New WI vs all: 0.5%
% Remaining (E/N): 4%
% Remaining (S/L/F/C): 5.55%
% Loss (E/N): 96%
% Loss (S/L/F/C): 94.45%
gained 5 slots for other powers
Avg Loss: (92.53 + 96 + 94.45) / 3 = 94.33%
(note: doesn't take into account 40% loss on FA/GA)
(edit: added what's below)
Now figuring it in per damage type, and FA and GA...
Issue 4:
S/L: 25 + 9 + 93.75 = 127.75%
E/N: 25 + 12.5 + 93.75 = 131.25%
F/C: 9 + 93.75 = 102.75%
Issue 5:
S/L: 15 + 0.5 + 7 = 22.5%
E/N: 15 + 0.5 + 7 = 22.5%
F/C: 0.5 + 7 = 7.5%
% Remaining / % Lost (both as % vs original):
S/L: 17.6% / 82.4%
E/N: 17.1% / 82.9%
F/C: 7.3% / 92.7%
After testing my three low Ice tanks on the test server I have some comments. This is also in reference to the confirmed numbers by Statesmen.
Here are the issues I see still
1. AV one shotting is probably number one issue, confirmed by others.
2. Wet Ice as 3rd power giding mez protection and negligable def is not need at this point in the game. There is really not many villains at the 4th power range that do Mez effects, so this power here is even more of a waste. In my opionin this should be exchanged in order for Energy Absorption, so at least Ice tanks can get some more defence early on. If not then no one will even try to play an Ice Tank, since they will die real easy. So Energy Absorption should now be 4th power in the set to get some def ealier in the game. While Wet Ice should take the place as the 8 power in the set to help out Mez protection where it is needed.
3. END requirements for ICE toggles are still too high for the actual def you get now for EA and WI. Chilling embrace and Icicles need to be severly reduced as well now since Ice tanks hardly have any Def anymore.
4. PermaFrost in my opionion should do RES against all damage types but PSI. Why? Because if you actuallly read about permafrost is the layer of ICe in the artic reagions that stays year round and never melts or evaporates. Well at least thats a quick general idea of Permafrost. So I personaly don't see why it shouldn't have Res against all Damage types as a solution to Ice tanks problems currently.
5. Wet Ice please remove the ability to put def enhancments into this power. Since your numbers show it is a complete waste anyways, please help the players who don't check the forums and remove the ability to put in def enhancments.
All the tests I've done with a level 6, 12 and 18 Ice tankers on test had me receive deaths way more often then on I4. In some situations I dided almost imediatly on a 8 man tem trying to tank one mob of about 12 villians. Very disappointed in the set on Test server.
At this point if we don't see many changes to Ice Tank set then I agree with others to just delete it from the game. I see it as a waste of time for the developers to create this set with the animations and coding. Unless this set gets some much needed help.
Sad for my Ice tankers.
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Energy Absorption similarly slotted provides 3% per target (so a maximum of 42%).
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This is what I typically do right now. I'd rush into a group of mob, usually 6 - 8 in size. Activate EA, then run off to another group or two, using my CE and Icicles for aggro, and group them up in a suitable location, hit taunt, and call the rest of the group to attack.
Now, according to the developer's vision, that is bad, because I am herding. So, I'd just have to rush the first group, use EA then taunt, and call my group to attack.
My question, how is EA useful anymore when I can only use it on small group, 6 - 8 mob? Another problem I have is, the range of EA is extremely short in my experience (pre i5), it would be quite difficult to physically fit 14 enemies in its affected radius. Typically, in the situation I described above, rushing into a group of mob, depending on size of them, I don't hit the 5 maximum as frequently as I'd hope as it is. EA is supposed to be the class defining power of an ICE tanker, yet, anyone can take weave and have comparible (less but guaranteed) defence bonus.
Also, typically what happens in a group of enemies, the bosses and LTs usually survive the attacks the longest. So, after all the minions have died, and EA runs out, renewing EA would be rather useless when there is only 1 enemy left behind. Paragon Protector comes to mind, they do alot of damage, and they usually stick around a long time due to their MOG. So, they'd have however long MOG last to pound at me while my defence suffer from not having other enemies in range to renew my EA.
Junior Gosok
36 ICE/ICE on Champion
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Let me just say that if a power doesn't provide a noticeable ability to your character it just isn't a superpower. Nerfing the top end of powers is great, nerfing the base of powers makes you feel less Super. People hate feeling less Super. Second, if a power requires heavy slotting for it to be effective how will the player who doesn't read the boards know that?
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Very good way to sum it up, Concern. In many ways, this statment can cover a lot of the power changes in I5. Certainly, it reflects my thoughts on the matter and explains why I have heartache and sadness over what I see in Issue 5.
Someone said it before, but it's worth saying again:
Isn't it funny how Issue 5 (with the vast weakening of powers) is a lot like Issue 1 of the new Top Cow comic.
Maybe the CoV Lead designer has taken over Jack's mind via corporate hypnosis and has tricked him into crushing his own heroes. How diabolical would that be....
The (hopefully) bright spot of that analogy is that in Issue 3 of the Top Cow comic, the heroes got all their old powers back AND got more powerful in the bargin. Maybe it means in Update 7, all the powersets that were reduced from super to above average will be get boosted back up? *crosses fingers, but actually expects more reductions*
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Just so the percentage decreases are represented properly (because people aren't throwing around the actual numbers)...
Old EA: 18.75% * 5 = 93.75%
New EA: 0.5% * 14 = 7%
% Remaining: 7 / 93.75 = 7.47%
% Loss: 92.53%
gained Endurance Recovery
Old WI vs E/N: 12.5%
Old WI vs S/L/C/F: 9%
New WI vs all: 0.5%
% Remaining (E/N): 4%
% Remaining (S/L/F/C): 5.55%
% Loss (E/N): 96%
% Loss (S/L/F/C): 94.45%
gained 5 slots for other powers
Avg Loss: (92.53 + 96 + 94.45) / 3 = 94.33%
(note: doesn't take into account 40% loss on FA/GA)
(edit: added what's below)
Now figuring it in per damage type, and FA and GA...
Issue 4:
S/L: 25 + 9 + 93.75 = 127.75%
E/N: 25 + 12.5 + 93.75 = 131.25%
F/C: 9 + 93.75 = 102.75%
Issue 5:
S/L: 15 + 0.5 + 7 = 22.5%
E/N: 15 + 0.5 + 7 = 22.5%
F/C: 0.5 + 7 = 7.5%
% Remaining / % Lost (both as % vs original):
S/L: 17.6% / 82.4%
E/N: 17.1% / 82.9%
F/C: 7.3% / 92.7%
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/tear
So how do Ice Tanks compare to other tanks or scrappers for that matter?
First I would like to say, this thread is a perfect example of why devs try not to give actual numbers regarding nerfs. How dare you people do your own math and find flaws/lies/misrepresentations.....
Ok now to the real point. Even if, best case scenario, the numbers statesman has given are correct, 3% is a RIDICULOUSLY low number. Pre-I5, I wouldn't slot a power that gave me LESS than 5% def BASE, most of the time not even bothering unless it were at least 10%. Now we're getting numbers for a power whose base is not even ONE percent? I don't care how many people cry whiner, but I think I'm justified when I say
DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!
and while you don't have to agree with me, if you can't at least see where I'm coming from with this opinion, you need to surgically remove your lips from the hind quarters of the developers of this game
That is all.
I agree scrap the whole powerset. Clearly the devs want to do away with it or they wouldn't be hitting the set so hard. Wet ice gets a 95% reduction with out any thing in return. EA gets hit for about 80% reduction with an endurance buff (which the set needed anyway). 14 mob buff from EA, means we actually have to live thru the alpha of those 14 mobs to receive the buff. As stated thru out the thread there are numerous things that punch wholes thru defense or totally ignore it. If they lower AV damage, it works more to the res ATs (they would be able to survive more blows) than to des anyway. We still take full damage and it will take 2 shots to kill us instead of one, with these changes that second hit will come before you can fire off Hibernate. It will just be minion that kills you instead of the AV.
I think major Res vs. Def balancing problem I see is that the devs totally ignore the fact that all the res sets have defense readily available in form of luck inspirations. Click one 25% defense no endurance cost, click 2 50% defense (which is .5% more than the best case for ice) again with no endurance cost. Ice tank would be better off running around with a tray full of lucks than turning their armors on. The only other true mitigation power is CE and it scales horribly and I have seen it on occasion totally ignored. You cant slot for more mitigation because slow enhancements only effect movement speed and not attack rate. We have a final power that compared to the other in the tank and scrapper ATs is a joke.
Ice tanks are the least played tank as it is. Once issue 5 hits who would want to play an AT that is the equivalent of 2 luck inspirations. The only strength that ice has is aggro management, and we are the least likely to survive the aggro that we take. We will be forced into taking the fighting pool, for another one or two expensive toggles (like we didnt have enough of those as is). What happened to ideal that you dont need pool powers to do your primary job?