throach

This kind of reminds me of the original post about I5 changes to Ice Tankers. Statesman answered peoples concerns about the lessening of Ice Tanker defense with global changes.

Once upon a time, power pool defense stacked with all Ice Armors and other hero's got power pool defense against ranged & melee only.

Now, power pool defenses do not stack with Glacial Armor and other hero's now have the added bonus of Smash/Leathal AoE protection.

Is there just no way that all this can be put back to the point where they all stacked? Surely another fix could be implimented for the original problem that started all of this.

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So what's an Ice Tank's niche again?

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It seems that the only thing we have that's special now is being the only tank that can do end drain. To bad it never works on AV's.

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Gang,

Decided to give Permafrost a protection against Slow instead of Toxic...

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I was thrilled when I read about the fire resistance being increased in Permafrost, as well as the addition of Toxic resistance. Permafrost finally was worthy of spending 5 slots on, to boost our resistance to two forms of attack we have no real defense against. The toxic resistance also would help low level tanks fighting Vahzilok. Not to mention high level tanks fighting Kracken in the Abandoned Sewer.

The removal of Toxic from Permafrost hurts. The removal of nearly all Fire Defense from Ice Tanks forces us to 6 slot Permafrost and now this nice, worth-while addition is gone.

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Just got out of a meeting with Geko...

I completely concur that the Wet Ice Def buff is so slender that it's pointless to slot Def Enhancements...but people already have done so.

Here's what we'll do: Wet Ice will no longer accept Def Enhancements. We'll increase the base def somewhat. Def Enhancements that are currently slotted will continue to have an effect, but players won't be able to slot new Def Enhancements into it.

We're also adding resistance to Toxic in Permafrost to bring it into line with Invulnerability's Resist Elements.

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This is all fine. I would still like to very strongly suggest increasing Frozen Armor's fire resistance to make an Ice Tankers fire weakness more equal to a Fire Tankers cold weakness. All Fire Tankers will slot thier S/L armor for resistance, boosting thier 10% cold resistance to 20% or so. No Ice Tanker in thier right mind will slot thier S/L armor for resistance, especially in I5. The tiny defence bonus from I5 Wet Ice and Energy Absorption plus the new damage debuff from Chilling Embrace barely help equalize this disparity between Fire and Ice tanker weaknesses. Please consider boosting Frozen Armor's fire resistance to perhaps 15%.

P.S...Please don't fix this by nerfing Fire Tankers cold resistance.

P.P.S...Now that I think about it, I'd also like to say that I don't really approve of the lowering of AV damage to prevent Ice Tanker one shots. This is another universal change that will end up benefiting resistance based tankers more than us. I'd prefer if a change be made to Ice Tankers themselves to prevent this. Perhaps the level of the damage debuff in Chilling Embrace can be used for this. However, that doesn't help against ranged attacks. I don't have a ready answer for you to solve this, but I don't think universal game changes are wise for this issue.

P.P.P.S...Something else. What about Icicles?

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List of my Powers:
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Frozen Armor - 6 slots (1endreduction, 4 DefBuff, 1 Cyto's)
Hoarfrost - 1 slot (w/ health)
Wet ice - 6 slots (1endreduction, 3 DefBuff, 2 Cyto's)
Permafrost - 6 slots (all Damage Resist)
Glacial Armor - 6 slots (1 endreduction, 5 DefBuff)
Energy Absorbtion - 6 slots (1 endreduction, 2 DefBuff, 3 Membranes) *if this loss's defence then my hami'os are worthless here
Icicles - 1 slot (endreduction)
Tough - 6 sloted (1 endreduction, 5 DamageResist)
Weave - 6 sloted (1 endreduction, 5 DefBuff)
Combat Jumping - 4 sloted (1 endreduction, 3 Def Buff)

*is 7 toggles really nessessary? keep in mind my SG usually fights on the hardest setting, even again AV's, so fighting lvl 53-54's is a common thing and other tanks are kicking my butt.

Also have hasten, rage, and conserve engergy full slotted w/ recharge rates, which means i can get EA and rage to double up, and w/ conserve energy i can wack away untill it falls off, once it does I really can't attack much cause my end falls drastically. Also when rage drops I can't taunt for awhile or attack which is ok cause i have just enough taunt to keep them on me untill i can taunt again. Rage does increase Icicles too in issue 4, so if i would'a slotted it heavy damage i could be doing more then burn ever could, but i wanted footstomp to have the damage. haven't try'd on test server yet so not sure if everything will be the same. Having double rage makes it easy for footstomp to hit the cap and also KO blow and makes my little attacks much better. So once again I always joke about being a scrapper instead of a tanker.
Can u tell i'm trying everything to raise my Def through the roof
This still makes me less then good when dealling w/ av's and some boss's

Like i said before range attacks aren't really a problem, except hami and mito's, they like me , its the close combat attacks that get though the most.

And Does anyone know if we will be getting a free respect for issue 5? (cause i have already used all mine )

I'd also like to see how other ice tanks are slotted for defense, maybe i have way to much i'm not sure.

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Yes, we will be getting a free respec with I5. Here are my defenses by memory. Dino Girl is lvl 42.

Dino Girl (I4)

Frozen Armor (1 end, 5 def)
Hoar Frost (6 rech)
Chilling Embrace (1 end)
Wet Ice (1 end, 5 def)
Energy Absorption (1 end, 5 def)
Glacial Armor (1 end, 3 def)
Permafrost (1 res)
Hibernate (1 end)
Tough (6 res)
Hasten (6 rech)
Health (1 heal)
Stamina (6 rec)
Conserve Power (1 rech)

Dino Girl did alright as Ice Tanks go. I picked up Permafrost for the extra 10% fire resistance to prep for those CoT portal missions and the AV you get to fight in the early 30's (Envoy of Shadows?). For my fights against this fire AV, I slotted Frozen Armor on the fly with res enh's I kept in my tray just for him, boosting my fire resistance to about 32% plus WI and EA defense allowing me to tank him effectively for my teams. I also made it a point to make many Dark Defender friends and team with them when possible. The resistance from Shadow Fall turned me into an icy version of a Stone Tanker, since I had super high defense and very good resistance vs. all damage types.


After some brief time on the test server and reading other tankers results on these boards, I came up with this slotting and have used my I4 free respec to slot her this way now for I5 live, knowing that I will be getting another free respec soon anyway.

Dino Girl (I5)

Frozen Armor (1 end, 5 def)
Hoar Frost (6 rech)
Chilling Embrace (1 end)
Wet Ice (1 end)
Energy Absorption (3 rech, might go with some end drain)
Glacial Armor (1 end, 5 def)
Hibernate (1 end)
Tough (1 end, 5 res)
Weave (1 end, 5 def)
Combat Jumping (1 def)
Health (1 heal)
Stamina (6 rec)

One thing that I have done is lose Hasten so I can have 5 more slots for other things, but I miss it and might put it back in. I also miss Permafrost, since 10% resistance to fire with only power pool defense isn't too swift. Lots more testing to do.

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I think that it will soon be announced that EA and WI are intended to no longer provide defense.

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I tend to agree. Its part of why I think we're not getting any answers. I've looked at your numbers, and come to the same basic conclusions, but a deeper analysis shows that the two sets do not match up...

Fire Shield provides 30% base RES S/L
Frozen Armor provides 15% base DEF S/L

Problem there is this. If one is 30% the other should be 30%. When not taking DEF scaling (misnomer because its really Accuracy scaling) into account 1% of DEF is exactly the same as 1% of RES.

Therefore to be equal, the base DEF for Frozen Armor would have to be 30% for them to match up.

The same is not lining up here:

Plasma Shield provides ~30% base RES E/N (planner says 32.5% actually)
Glacial Armor provides 15% base DEF E/N.

Again for them to truly match up, Glacial Armor would need to be the same ~30% but as a base DEF.

Then look at Blazing Aura vs Icicles...

Blazing Aura:
0.75 EPS
0.6111 Brawl Index
AoE 15 feet

Icicles:
1.5 EPS
0.5556 Brawl Index
AoE 5 feet (melee range)

There's a huge difference there, with Blazing Aura being better in all respects. Cheaper to run, better damage, larger radius (both are likely cheaper to run on test I imagine).

Also because of the factors that make RES a constant vs enemies and DEF not so much a constant that the DEF values for Ice should probably fall at 5% higher than the RES values for Fire to compensate.

I would say its probably likely that Burn and Chilling Embrace do line up some now. Both Damage and Slows are affected by mob level difference - thus they become less effective the wider the margin. Though I'd personally say that now CE might actually be a more useful power than Burn.

The major disparity?

Being weak to Fire is a much larger problem in this game than being weak to Cold. Fire is simply much more prevalent. Therefore you should really be taking that into account when balancing the two weakness out towards one another, and that would mean that Ice should get slightly better Fire protection than Fire gets towards Cold.

As a side, the Psi thing is a joke. Stone Tanks still get (I think) a 15% base DEF vs Psi (haven't seen this tested, but I figure it go the same 40% reduction other DEF based powers did). So Psi is not a weakness for all Tankers. In fact, Stone's only weakness is Slows really, as they are affected greater by them. They have no armor holes really.

If Fire and Cold are the weaknesses for Ice and Fire, than that should be it. The Psi thing is an old statement when its flat out not true from the moment your mind formulates the words. Let Psi be the Invuln weakness, and let the Fire and Cold thing stick on Ice and Fire. And I'm not convinced that Slow is enough of a weakness for Stone.

Realistically, my basic thought is this. If Ice is indeed the DEF based Tanker, then it should be able to achieve DEF values that everyone else in the game has to work to achieve. That would be a better way to handle it. (edit: and doing this would not invalidate Defenders in any way, shape or form. On the live servers, despite the massive DEF on my Ice Tanker, I have never felt that he does not need a Defender to stand behind him, in fact, more often than not one is almost required, already , today - I5 makes no changes there, other than to make it moreso a requirement).

As for RotP and Hibernate? They're both nice powers (I have RotP on my Blaster), but reality of the story is this: neither are well thought out 9th tier powers. They both function, but they're not Mog, Elude, Unstoppable, or Granite. Its just that simple to those, neither compare.

So I still think that for either set you drop their auto power (Temp Prot and Permafrost), and slide everything else down a level and make creative level 32 powers for them that are better in line with the other level 32 powers. (edit: and fold their RES into one or more of the other existing armors, perhaps Wet Ice since its DEF is practically uselss now)

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I like the idea of making Ice Armor's defense bonuses equal to Fire Aura's resistance bonuses. That does alot to equalize the damage reducing benifits between the two sets, against even level minions that is.

I also agree that Icicles should be changed to match the endurance and damage performance of Blazing Aura. On top of that I think that the damage that Icicles does should be at least 1/2 cold damage, if not all.

Another thing I noticed has to do with Ice Armors Fire resistance vs. Fire Aura's cold resistance. Fire shield naturally gets filled with resistance enh's, boosting it's 10% cold resistance to 20 or 22% depending on slotting. Frozen Armor naturally gets filled with defense enh's, leaving Ice Armor's fire resistance at a bare minimum 10%. This compounds the problem of fire damage being way more prevelent than cold damage in the game. For this reason, I strongly suggest that the Dev's consider doubling the fire resistance that Frozen Armor grants. If they want to remove the ability to slot Frozen Armor with resistance enh's to prevent "on the fly" slotting for improved resistance vs. Fire AV's or what not, that's fine. This doesn't address the fire/cold damage frequency in the game, but at least it balances the sets against each other (which is what the Dev's seem to be doing).

I've been thinking about the current test data for Ice tanks and the new nerf to Burn for fire tanks. I think that it will soon be announced that EA and WI are intended to no longer provide defense. Lets compare the current test states of Fire and Ice tankers...


Fire Shield provides 30% res vs. fire & 10% res vs. cold
Frozen Armor provides 30% res vs. cold & 10% res vs. fire

Fire Shield gives protection against Smashing & Leathal
Frozen Armor gives protection against Smashing & Leathal

Plasma Shield gives protection against Energy and Negative
Glacial Armor gives protection against Energy and Negative

Plasma Shield gives some resistance to Fire
Glacial Shield gives some resistance to Ice

Fiery Aura has no armor specific to elemental or Psy damage, but has huge Fire resistance, leaving Cold & Psy as weaknesses
Ice Armor has no armor specific to elemental or Psy damage, but has huge Cold resistance, leaving Fire & Psy as weaknesses

Temperature Protection can provide small compensation vs. Cold
Permafrost can provide small compensation vs. Fire

Burning Aura provides a damage aura
Icicles provides a damage aura

Consume provides endurance recovery
Energy Absorption provides endurance recovery

Burn is now a damage mitigation power
Chilling Embrace is a damage mitigation power

Rise of the Phoenix is a high level emergency power
Hibernate is a high level emergency power


It seems to me that Ice and Fire tanks are getting closer to being mirror image opposites. Interesting huh?

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That being said, I think that the dev's should now balance Ice against Fire as much as possible.

Fire has 30% resists vs. Smashing and Leathal, Ice has about 15% defense vs. Smashing and Leathal. Is this balanced in I5? Of course either tank is likely to pick up Tough as an addition to this, but I don't think 15% base is enough.

It's nearly the same story with Energy and Negative, but there are no self aquired powers to add to this directly like Tough.

None of this takes into account the basic scaling differences between Defence and Resistance, but I think that the dev's aren't to concerned about that. They would rather we fought foes closer to our own level it seems.

Dev's! Please make sure that you give us Ice Tanks great defense vs. Sm/Le/En/Neg! Leave the weaknesses (Fire/Psy) they are understandable. But make sure that our strengths are strong enough for us to tank and do a decent job of it.

Dino Girl's main concern...

Please tell us if the zero defence on Wet Ice and Energy Absorption is working as intended? The patch notes say they were reduced, but it seams that they were nulified.

On the chance that they are not supposed to give appreciable defence any more, I have some sugestions...

#1 Raise the base defence values of FA and GA to their original values to make up for the loss of defense from WI and EA. The defence values against Sm/Le/En/Neg will still be much lower than I4 levels with the loss of WI & EA's defence boosts.

#2 The loss of all defence against Fire is terrible, but Permafrost can be made to take up the slack here and work as originally intended. 9% res vs. Fire is the best anyone will get from FA since slotting it for resistance will be completely out of the question in I4 (I did find it useful previously for specific Fire AV fights). Why not double the Fire resistance of Permafrost to 20%? This will help compensate for zero Fire defence. I think that should be done at a minumum, but if you gave it maybe 9% vs. Psy as well it would turn into a power well worth taking and slotting.

I enjoy a challenge, otherwise I wouldn't have got Dino Girl up to level 42. I am looking forward to some of the challenges that I5 has in store for us, but I do hope that Ice Tanks end up equal to other tank's performances.

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But sometimes a bug isn't serious enough to hold up a release - that's when we decide to go live with something. We know that there might be some niggling details to address over the next few weeks.

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I personally don't think that Energy Absorption not working correctly is a niggling detail. My character is seriously ganked now. When might this be fixed?

I've been solo-ing Kings Row and my Kings Row contact offered me a timed mission so I took it. It ended up being in the Hollows on the far side of the map. I was 7th level and died 3 times trying to get there and once on the way back. Did I have a choice other than to fail the mission?