Maiabros

[ QUOTE ]
First - I didn't mean it to sound that the Accuracy reductions were the ONLY change forthcoming. It's just that these changes, while global, benefits the Defense builds more than others....

Secondly, I apologize if anyone thought my reference to "crying" meant "whining." What I meant by "crying" was something like "demanding" or "shouting for." That's what I get for starting threads like that without having an editor!

Thirdly, several of you have noted that I didn't address some major concerns of Ice Tankers. Here, I think, are the big ones....

Yes, Wet Ice and Energy Absorption provide relatively small DEF buffs. This is not a bug and by design. Wet Ice provides a base defense of +.5%; Energy Absorption provides the same buff for every foe within melee range (up to a maximum of 14 targets).

One shotting by AV's. In a word, you are ALL correct. It's not a good thing for an Ice Tanker to be leveled by a single blow. So we're going back and changing the damage done by AV's so that it's no longer possible for a Tanker to be one shotted.

Yes, I hear the complaints about Permafrost. And I'm...thinking. I've read many suggestions - and gotten more than a few PM's about it. There's a lot of good ideas there. So I'm going to do some pondering there.

[/ QUOTE ]

So...wait. Let me get this straight. You come in here, and reply to us...telling us that the gang banging we're getting is part of your design?

You give us some more "changes" that are global?! And then, when you make changes to Ice Tanks themselves, you tell us how bad our defense is now (since when?) decreasing our ability to survive once again?!

What the hell man!? Honestly? How is that supposed to be good news?

As pointed out earlier...Inv Tanks and Scrappers now have more def than THE DEFENCE Tank.

States...honestly, what on earth is going through your mind as you post this stuff. You tell us you're looking at and considering our concerns, but then you tell us that all the crap we're going through is by design! How can you expect us to take that lightly?? "Oh, we've realized that some of your concerns are valid..and to make up for it, we're killing your set even more! Take that for making us look stupid!!"

My first, and favorite, character in City of Heroes was an Ice/Ice tank. What can I say? I have Raynaud's, it seemed to fit.

I loved it when we could get stacking armors. It brought us up one of our many neglected holes to near-par with other tanks. We're told we're the "controller" tanks...except not really.

I cannot even begin to fathom why a global accuracy change to mobs is supposed to give Ice Tankers hope. You fixed something for everyone, that wasn't even a problem for everyone.

I was estatic to get my Ice/Ice to 50. It meant that with the upcoming changes, I wouldn't have to go through the roughest part of the game with even more problems stacked up on that poor guy's shoulders.

We've had endurance problems, more so than other tank sets, as far back as I can remember (Last September?). We've had problems with resistances to effects, which was thankfully taken "care of" with stacking armors. But only compounded our endurance problems. Then Icicles. The joke that is Icicles. Don't get me wrong, I love that power. But in order to make it useful, ie- actually HIT and do damage, I had to suffer the pain of it's high endurance drain. Ice tanks are about control though...right? Chilling Embrace is a joke. Please don't tell me it's not. I remember reading it's description, and thinking "yes!! Slowing down my enemies so they won't hit me as much AND can't run away fast?" It did one of those. For kicks and giggles, I put 4 slow enhancements in it once. Just to see if it would help. Oh, sure, they can't run away very fast. And yeah, it slows down minions pretty bad. I almost never noticed a difference with lt's, bosses...or, heaven forbid, I slow down an Arch-Villian. Yet the other tanks powers...don't they work on AV's?

When I got Ice Patch, I felt useful again. I could knock guys down some. But wait..that's a secondary, that's not even a Primary Power. Are you sure we're supposed to be the controlling tanks? And then, if I ever made the mistake of putting 2 down at once, or using it on some types of clockwork (read: all minions)..they'd all go flying away instead of falling down. Oops. Sorry team! Control.

When I found out what Energy Absorption was, I was over joyous with relief. The saving grace of Ice/* tanks. Our redeeming quality.

Then I started fighting Devouring Earth. Yeah, those eminators don't pop up till the 30's...but that's only, what...4 levels of happiness when you have to fight DE? For whoever said tanks should be their best with a defender around...yeah, I had a defender with me at all times with the DE. Sometimes two. The only reason I could survive half the times I did is because of the health and endurance regen they could give me. Not because of resistance, or defence boosts. No, I had (note the past tense) plenty of defence. Sometimes the only way to get it was to gather about 15-20 DE around and use EA, but darn tootin I had it. Until they popped down one quartz. Not 2, 3..50. One. Then it was see who could take down the quartz the fastest. "Take a Dark Defender with you!" It only works for so long. Thankfully, I finally got past the DE. Somehow they were the only contacts I had left until I reached about...34-36. Oh yeah, but then they came back.

No, DE wasn't my only problem. Is got worse when I heard around lvl 40 that EA was gonna be changed. Some people felt that it was too powerful. Yeah, the redeeming power of Ice/* tanks was too powerful. The Underdog tanks...too powerful. Great call.

So instead of FIXING problems Ice Tankers have (note the present tense) ya'll thought it'd be good to add more? Nah, most of us didn't cry out "nerf". We even had our own thread where we discussed it like adults, and very specifically talked about why that was a bad move. All 30 of us. But when the shaft came, we took it. Again.

For a time, when all the other thanks got hit hard, Ice started pulling through again. Then the EA bomb hit us, and hit us hard. It doesn't matter how high our defence is- hits will always get through. They're always supposed to get through. Even the really, really hard hitting ones. But "the streak?" We sure don't feel like the King and Queens of Defence....getting hit over 15 times in a row will do that to you. Especially those hard hits.

Yaaaay, we got some endurance drain for EA. Supposedly a good compromise. No....we were then left with even less defence before: ya know, when many, many hits still got through. The slow effect? Just about as useless as Chilling Embrace's.
Inherant Taunt? Please.

And now...dropping the accuracy for everyone is supposed to be somehow linked to Ice Tankers? As their big helping change? I had many, many characters in City of Heroes. But my first was, and always will be, my favorite. He existed when the Dev's were about fixing problems (sometimes the Ice Tanker's problems). You know it's true: the Ice Tankers have been needing some love forever, and ya'll keep choking 'em tighter.

Were we too cookie cutter? Were there tons of us running around? Hell no. I could count the active Ice/Ice tankers on Guardian without using all four extremeties. Why the need to keep hurting our build? I never met an Ice Tanker who had all (or near all) the same powers as me. Not one. Yeah, we all had EA. But that's because we needed it to survive.

Don't get me started on */Ice. Bar far the weakest of the secondaries too, isn't it? Oh yeah...control. Something like that. I waited 38 levels to get some real damage. I got my Greater Ice Sword to the highest damage I could. I could take some minions out in 3 attacks (Greater, Lesser, Greater)...if I had enough endurance left. I took Energy Mastery (if the name is still the same) because I had to. Conserve Energy, and an Accuracy toggle. Not to mention 2 ranged attacks? I couldn't contain myself.

Conserve Energy does eventually wear off. Sure, I could throw Endurance Reduction on all my powers, but by the time I got it to the point where I could almost break even, none of my powers would be worth it anymore.

Inspirations you say? I made sure that over half my tray was all blues. It had to be. I needed the end recovery more than health, if you can believe it. Sometimes the reverse was true, but more than not I'd have to leave a mission multiple times because I'd need more endurance inspirations.

States, ya've lost me. I can't think of any logical reasoning behind half the things you've done to Ice Tankers. Then making a thread for Ice Tankers...and announcing that accuracy will be globally reduced? Is that supposed to give us hope?

I see more intervention and listening to players in Guild Wars...and that's saying a lot. That's saying a whole lot. I was gonna get City of Villians. I still want to. But I don't wanna see how many times one team can give its players the shaft...and expect us to like it.

"A few think we're ignoring Ice in favor of Invulnerabilty"
How on earth is not fixing Ice Tankers problems by going into the set itself, but making a change for some who don't even need it, NOT ignoring Ice Tankers? I've had SG mates give me their condolences after reading patch notes before. Why? They're not even playing Ice Tankers, and they know how many hoops we've jumped through to yet again get another shafting.

Statesman, start fixing Ice Tanker problems. Hopefully you've seen some of them on this last page alone:
"Control"...Endurance, Energy Absorption...etc. Start listening to us for once.

"PLEASE keep the discussion limited to Ice Tankers. Anything else will be removed."
How many on the first page alone are still there? I know, moderating can get pretty busy (I help moderate on forums)....but why the hell can't people listen? Honestly? Right there, first post, that this is for Ice Tanks. I gave up going through each page, I didn't want to see how many posts were about how happy other AT's would be.
Ironic, isn't it? Scrappers rejoicing over what Dev's thought would be a nice change for Ice Tankers. A "nerf" to accuracy is for Ice Tankers? Why even bother pretending that this had Ice Tankers in mind?

~Glenjimo Hasaki

I do like some of the proposed ideas for EA: right now all it is really good for is giving us a good def buff. If you slot it with end drain and recharge, you basically lose out on your +def buff for the sake of taking away their end (most of it). That's not a good, nor wise, trade-off. Our saving grace for them to lose end until it comes back....and to be honest, a lot of them get it back pretty quickly.

Ice Tanks and AV's?
Heh, I've been asked to come help with them, probably because I was the only high range tank on and in the area at the time. Can Ice Tanks do AV's (on a team)? Certainly. Not as well as others, and never solo...but it is theoretically possible with the bare necessity being a friggin good healer. When I have a +regen (health and end, preferrably) I usually only get one shotted by AV's that have -resistance powers and def debuffs...or a really good nuke/hard hitter: so most radiation based attacks. If I team with a good empath healer I know (and a damage dealer to actually hurt the darn thing) that's all we need for most AV's - 3. I was one-shot by Neuron (he resis defuffed me before he put off his nuke)...even with Hoarfrost. Infernal has knocked me down with 2-3 hits, but not one (unless the army of behemoths was attacking me as well).

It is possible for Ice tanks to fight AV's, but I've seen tanks from different sets 3-4 levels lower than me (NOT sked) do a better job.....on the same AV i was fighting.

[ QUOTE ]
Facts about streak-breaker:
According to the devs, the streakbreaker is not there on mobs.
It only kicks in when a PLAYER misses a mob many times, then it gives you a guarenteed hit, based on: your level vs mob level and number of consecutive misses.


[/ QUOTE ]
First off, I think when people talk about "the Streak" it is notthe streakbreaker. I don't think anyone's even mentioned the streak-breaker as forementioned just now. When we refer to "the Streak" it is just that - a streak of lucky blow, one after another. No matter how high our defense is, the Streak will always be there. It is the bane of an Ice tank's existance. Well, one of the many - we seem to have plenty of weaknesses but not many strengths.

[ QUOTE ]
The mobs can miss infinite number of times in a row, depending on your luck that is.
But they can also hit many times in a row, when unlucky.
And there in lies the gripe of +def, especially on a tank.


[/ QUOTE ]
Therein lies one of our gripes. Somehow, that 5% chance to get hit despite our whatever% DEF will get through. That's just not right. RES allows hits to get through, but aren't they always -dmg? What'd be nice is if our armors somehow reduced the mobs acc, not made us harder to hit. (Kinda reverse buffing..yeah)

[ QUOTE ]

Problem here lies in the fact that minion acc and boss/av acc differs so much.
They can't just raise the toggle +def values, because that would make it to easy to floor minions. While against AV's with high acc, ice tankers (and toggle SR) gets hit way way to much.

My suggestion? Make EA work better against more powerful foes.
It currently gives +18.75% def / mob , draing from a max of 5 mobs (on test).
How about 18.75% from minions, but higher from others up to 30% from an archvillain.
That would give us help against the tough bosses/AV's.


[/ QUOTE ]
I second the motion!!

[ QUOTE ]
This would however not remove the problem of oneshotting.
Ice tankers needs less weaknesses as compensation.
The psi-weakness we will keep, nothing will change that most likely.
Removing the weakness to toxic/fire would be a good start.

How about: same defense to everything except psi.
Keep the cold resist on the toggles.
Temp-protection changes name (to something like, frozen skin or such)
and becomes 10% fire/lethal/smash resist.

a slight resist would really make a world of difference.
If we can avoid one-shotting only the unlucky streak will be a major drawback, but as a +def based set that's unavoidable.


[/ QUOTE ]
Again, I second the motion. We have too many holes in our set. Way too many in comparison to others. These holes should be slowly decreased, not increased.

[ QUOTE ]
Remeber that CE really DOES mitigate damage on the long term.

[/ QUOTE ]
And also remember that CE is only noticeably effective to lower level mobs and minions to around +3. If I've got RA (or some other +end regen) on me, I'll put up CE for kicks and giggles. Sure, they move a lot slower, but the rate at which they attack seems pretty miniscule. In the high end of the game (40+) I tried using CE on mobs in Invincible missions....it was a waste of endurance.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think anyone is going to argue that Ice tanks have major issues handling 'average' bosses, lts, or minions. The problems come in with certain foes who have massive defense debuffs, powers which have self def debuffs (is anyone else thinking Rage is going to screw over Ice tanks now?), massive acc boosts, the horror that is untyped attacks (*cough* toxic *cough*) or psi.

Ice vs regular foes just has to deal with the streaky RNG. In an 8 man team, at level 28, I was killed by a single spawn at Unyielding when 2 Tank Swipers and a lt hit me at the same time- with Hoarfrost up. A rare case, yes, but it does happen. It's an inherent weakness that Ice has is that it is entirely reliant on numbers and odds.


[/ QUOTE ]

I hate dying when Hoarfrost is up. 2600 hp just isn't enough anymore it seems. And what's the point of being a DEF set, if so many enemies have -DEF powers?? Even without the -DEF powers, we still get "the streak". It's horrible....what is our strength?

[ QUOTE ]
As for the change to EA, the problem comes in that some things in the game really do make your defense need to be that high, if defense is all you have. Tanks as a rule don't have the damage capacity to take out a quartz- Energy Transfer aside- before they get nailed hard enough to run or hibernate or use those awakens.

[/ QUOTE ]
The first time I saw a quartz, it became the day I hated DE. 1 quartz is bad enough, and 2 makes it seem we're wearing paper armor. 3....it's like we're naked and strung up to be a punching bag.

[ QUOTE ]
As for Archvillans, it's just stupid, period, that Ice has to go outside it's set for Weave if it wants to have a shot vs psi avs (the def based tanker with no def to something boggles my mind), and needs tough to aviod oneshotting. For the record, while risk is fun, can anyone present an arguement that being oneshotted is at all fun?

[/ QUOTE ]
Now that I'm 50...I don't care about being one-shotted, unless it means my teammates dying. The Psychic Clockwork King and Psychic Babbage, have yet to one shot me. Why? I was with some dang good defenders. The King could only take 1/3 of my hp at a time (with Hoarfrost on), so with inspirations and constant healing...I could manage to stay alive.

I really do agree...how the DEF-based tank doesn't have defense to something...is really quite mind-boggling.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not really a fan of the spreadsheets going aruond comparing Ice to Invul, let alone to Stone and Fire. I actually think the other 3 sets are fairly well balanced and set up, but I don't feel that the game is balanced perfectly numerically, nor should it be. I know you're trying to demonstrate the dispairity, but I think it's even easier by listing the holes in various armor types.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really do appreciate you guys going out and compiling all that info. I'm not trying to downplay it either - but numbers are numbers. Sometimes numbers don't match up to actuality...strangely so. I can EA X# of guys, get my DEF increased to Y%, and still get hit - even the deadly "streak". X & Y being..well, insert random number here.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, to someone who pointed out that Ice tanks are the anti-sappers: not in I4. Stone armor now gets endurance drain resists in the form of Rooted, not to mention Confuse resists

[/ QUOTE ]
Wait....we were anti-sappers?? Since when? I never knew that...sure doesn't seem like it. Sure, you can hold a sapper..if you're */Ice, and that's only one at a time...assuming you DO hit him.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry if I'm coming off a bit negatively, but I'm kind of sick (as in ill) and a bit frustrated. I don't understand what the devs -want- Ice to be, but the current situation is basicly 'fairly good at pvp, worse than every scrapper and tanker set at everything else'. I guess I'd at least like a redname to post -some- reaction, short of Geko's post, which I think most of us can agree is more or less looking at EA in a vaccum.

[/ QUOTE ]
What is it the Dev's want us to be? - that is a very good question. I would like to know, so far - it's guys (and gals) who get shafted. We got a little bit of love with stacking armors...but we're still the underdogs in the tank world. I still don't know how we're the "controller" tanks - CE's slow isn't worth it higher up, and Icicles (despite doing "plenty" of damage) do help enough. I'll admit, it does quicken up the pace of battles - when they hit. I've got 3 dmg, 2 acc, and 1 end redux in my Icicles - they do about...18-24 dmg depending on what I'm fighting. Even con to +1ish. It'd be nice to have some kind of debuff along with those things...so far we're mainly weaknesses, and not many strengths.

[ QUOTE ]
I may be misremembering, and only took 2000 points after resists, which is still enough to one-shot a 50th level ice tanker, I think.

[/ QUOTE ]
Pre-accolades and pre-hoarfrost, a lvl 50 Ice tank will have about 1800 hp.

[ QUOTE ]
Slotting up Health might well become more viable. Since I've noticed quite a few ice tankers already suggest taking and slotting up this power, this is more just a 'good to know' thing than a major change. It will obviously affect Stone and Invul the same as it effects Ice (assuming perma HP boosting).

[/ QUOTE ]
I did that ASAP, it's saved me on only a few occasions. (Usually if you're gonna get hit hard enough to be nearly dead, it's 'cause you're soon gonna be dead.)

[ QUOTE ]
Btw, did a respec on the Training Server. Tried running with my Ice Armors (FA/GA), and no Tough. For those of you who said you don't run Tough all the time, I truely feel for you. You have perseverance beyond my ken. Never burned healing insperations like that before.

[/ QUOTE ]
Never had Tough. Probably never will have it....my tank is 50, and I don't plan on changing too much of his build right now. For crying out loud, I didn't even have Wet Ice till lvl 24 (Fighting Tsoo was HELL)!! (I passed it up when it was only a minor mez-resistance and non-stacking armors.)


My first PvP experience today...was kind of strange. I exemplared down to lvl 26 and fought a Inv/SS tank (lvl 25). To quote him, "It's like an immovable object fighting an unstoppable force." The round ended in a stalemate. I could hit him, for little damage. He couldn't hit me (often), for about 4x as much damage. Not once did we knock eachothers toggles off. For kicks and giggles we did a round of 50 vs 25. That made me feel good about myself again.

After that, I did a 4 vs 4 "any-weight" match. It was a 25, 34, 44, and 50 vs a 21, 32, 41, and 50. The controller and I being the 50's.
The round started off with me going "oh great..." when I discovered the enemy 25 (a kheldian) stayed in White Dwarf at all times, with very high resistances. Despite toggle-smashing attacks, they stayed in. The enemy scrapper, the 34, would SS around and always attack our lvl 21 and 32 when I wasn't around, picking them off like little children. The enemy tank would always follow me around (a Fire/*) trying to perma-taunt me....so every time I got the controller (Fire/Kinetics) down to near death, I would lose my target and he'd run away phase-shifted.

I didn't kill a soul (one of my teammates KSed me!), but I did the most damage. I didn't see the fire tank hit me once (and with burn the damage was so miniscule I never noticed it). The controller never held me, even though he spammed holds on me (I had about 5-6 showing on status). Not once did my toggles drop, by any means, and never did my hp drop below 90%.

I liked those numbers, really I did. But I did very little to help my team other than not die. They were all squishy, and the other team was too good at isolating me from the rest, or making it so only I could hit the tank when I got any of them near-death.

I'll do more PvP testing later...but so far, the Ice tank can (almost) hold it's own against anything I've seen.

Glenjimo Hasaiki lvl 50 Ice/Ice

[ QUOTE ]
I think the power is fine the way it is. As far as abuse, we can't really do that. Even if I managed to get a ton of enemies together, there is always that cap on our max defense. No matter what, everything has a 1 in 20 chance to hit us. We need to reach higher than 100% a lot of the time just to be able to stand up to various things like buffs, debuffs, increased accuracy due to con level, etc. Until other powers in the set are fixed, I think EA needs to be left as is.

There is also the streak-breaker code to consider. It isn't supposed to be a factor, but it would explain things if it was. I'm not sure if it is based off the pc or individual npcs. If it is based on the PC, it seems like it would rear it's ugly head especially for ice tanks. It would explain the "streak" that seems to happen to us so often when suddenly everyone around us gets off a hit at the same time. It is like going through the alpha-strike again after we have our defense up as high as we can get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, amen to that. EA is our saving grace, not an abusive power. It's what keeps us alive, toe-to-toe with other tanks (so to speak.)

It's been said that Ice/*, but Ice/Ice specifically, is more of a "controlling" tank. Sure, I can keep all their attention...other tanks can too, but buff/debuffs? The higher you go, the less and less affective slow powers appear. 1) we need many mobs to hit our high defense % (to stay alive fighting monsters, AV's, and generally everything). Slowing down 15, 20, 25...etc, mobs...I've never noticed the amount of damage done slowed down. They punch slower, they recharge slower (supposedly....doesn't seem that way at times), but they still get in hits. And almost always enough.

When I hit 32ish, I realized I could solo unyielding missions (with plenty of inspirations.) When I hit 42ish, I realized I could solo invincible missions (again, with plenty of inspirations). I rarely used CE past 32 solo, unless I was on a team with a defender that had a +recover power. I never noticed it helping. I still got hit as much. I still got "the streak", hit after hit after hit....even with EA'ing big mobs.

I think we all agree that instead of hurting a power that's great the way it is (one of our few handy powers defense-wise), the Dev's should concentrate more on fixing the other problematic powers we have.

Hibernate - as much as I love it, all the other tank have(had?) a really "realistic" power. Unstoppable, Granite Armor, and Rise of the Pheonix.

Unstoppable - sounds good for "invincible" (ya'll know what it does, right?)
Granite Armor - i love that power, I wish I could tank as good as that. I watched a Stone tank solo a kraken.
Rise of the Pheonix - self rez, burns foes. Literally, rising from the ashes.

And now Hibernate - we're encased in ice solid enough to make us untouchable. Nothing in, nothing out. I like this power, really I do. But when I hit that power my teammates are all as good as dead. It's like I'm signing 6-7 people up for their deaths when I used it in a fight. Sure, the aggro stays on you for a little bit - but anybody not seeing you do that will keep attacking, and the whole mobs shifts.

Now, think about it - you are encased in ice solid enough to resist any force coming at it....that Ice better be pretty friggin cold to do so. Wouldn't the area directly around that near 0 K ice be stinking cold too?

What i'm saying is....why not give Hibernate a minor slow (basically, a small CE) around it? Let us keep aggro - but let Hibernate not be toggled, let it be timed. That way we can't stay in our fortress of solitude as an "oh crap!" power, but something to keep us alive during those initial alpha strike and hard hits....yet still keeping all our squishy teammates alive.

An SG-mate of mine is a killer emp/elec defender. One of the best healers I know. It's cause of him I was able to go through so many DE...among other accuracy or -def mbos. I think Ice tankers can only reach their full potential when teaming with healers (def or controller - as long as they have +end rec and +healing) - wherein other tanks don't need teammates to be as, or more, affective.

Why the need has arrived to pick on the weakest of tanks, I don't know. Ice tanks are not overpowered and can only reach the same tanking ability as other tanks when with teammates.

I love what you guys (Devs and such) are doing with CoH. But Ice is the only tank I've heard of to be kicked off a team simply because of our power sets - that means any changes that need to be made to us should be giving us fixes, helping us..etc, not taking away.

And to be honest.... I get tired of people telling me they feel sorry for me and other Ice/* tanks out there. They recognize we are the most problematic (ie - weakest) set, and need some lovin. Although I do find the tells that go along the lines of, "Ohh...an Ice/Ice tank. You're a brave one. Crazy too." Hilarious.

Ok...I spend 5ish hours doing missions (including AV's) to hit 50. Yeah, friggin finally. Now I know of 3 lvl 50 Ice/Ice tanks on Guardian

I was on a team with a fire tank for dreck, who was 49 at the time (just like me). We gathered mobs together for fast and easy kills (we both gather, find a good spot, then I CE, Ice Patch, and EA to slow and dry up End... while he used burn). Suprisingly....I got hit more than he did. It still boggles my mind. I EA'd easily 100 guys, and almost got one-shotted a few times. It was +3 freaks....so I can understand getting hit - but more than a Fire tank (without tough/weave...etc)??

One of our main weaknesses also comes with AV's. The only way I can effectively tank one is with a RAD/EMP/BUB def/troller on my team. With the bubbler it's a little more dangerous, but with RAD/EMP my hp and end stay decently 80% full. (Aside from the occasional nuke and one-shot)

Again, changing EA to have a max hit is downright insane. We still get hit after hitting 100 mobs with it, changing it to 5 will be nearly suicidal - that is unless the recharge is shortened and the active time extended so we can effectively stack it.

CE is nowhere near a power that brings us up to par. Fighting minions and lt's (that aren't resistant to slow affects) can be handy - except when used in tandem with Ice Patch they just fall down in slow-motion. And after lvl 30ish the slow affect isn't enough to use (along with the end usage) unless you have an end recovery buff on you. I've got 4 End reducers and one Slow affect in it. I tried 2, but I didn't notice a difference...other than my end wore out faster.

CE is worthless against every AV and monster I've tried to use it on. (As a lvl 50....you lose track of how many that is). If it is slowing them down it's so miniscule it's unnoticeable.

I don't plan on doing any 1 vs 1's in PvP, why should the "meat shields" try to take on one guy alone? Yeah....'cause there's a good possibility that Ice/Ice's won't last very long - once you nullify the defense it's basically over. I do look forward to team matches though - that is where Ice/* may come in quite handy... assuming they don't change too many of our powers.

And Psi defense or resistance...would be a God-send. As a lvl 50 tank the only enemies I fear, are: Monsters, AV's, and Rikti Monkies. Underlings, come on man!! They're everywhere on monkey island (and parts of the crash site)....it's hard to NOT draw the aggro of 4-5 groups of 8-10 each. Now imagine getting hit by 50 monkies Psi range attacks....even with hoarfrost on (to put HP to nearly 2800) I watch my health steadily drop...to enemies that con blue and green.

Our weaknesses need to be looked over again, I agree. Cold attacks don't hurt nearly as bad as they used to, nor fire...but you think fire'd be our main weakness. Why do all tankers but Stone generally have the same Achille's heel?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My ice tank is only a baby still, but I've got a question/suggestion.

What if they cut the timer on hoarfrost in half? More accurately, to the point where if you choose, you could perma double stack it without using hasten? That or raise the amount of HP it gives by 20 or 30. How much would having 40-80% more HP help?

[/ QUOTE ]

Currently, the boost number with Hoarfrost is 28.57% (1863.3 up to 2608.6). If it was upped to 70%, my (current) hp would boost to 3167.61. AV's could still one shot me...just much, much less.
Halfing the recharge time (I have 2 recharge SO's in it already...so maybe more to stack it) and then stacking it, with the 70%, would give 5384.94 hit points for a limited time. That might give us something to set us apart from the other sets a little more.

What other ideas have there been so far? Let's get a list going:[*]Keep EA the way it is (or better it). [*]Put a dmg and/or resistance debuff on a power of ours. (preferably an autohit)[*]Put an acc/def debuff onto a power of ours. (preferably an auto hit)[*]Maybe make Icicles autohit? [*]Let one of our powers give us some psi, along with s/l, dmg resistance.[*]Make Hibernate a wee bit more useful than a giant invulnerable popsicle. IE - Let Icicles or CE get out still...maybe as a punishment for said use let us not be invulernable but just give very high Def and Res (to all).[*]Bump either hoarfrost's recharge time, +max hp, or both[*]Seeing how we're in a block of ice, def or res to psi isn't very role-playingish. What if EA, instead of just giving def to all but psi, would give defense to whatever it was we EA'd? Ie - you EA mobs with psionic/energy attacks, you now have defense to both. You EA mobs with s/l/toxic attacks, you now have defense to all three.[/list]
almost lvl 49 Ice/Ice

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm, no. Hoarfrost is a straight 40% increase in your base hp.

[/ QUOTE ]

My bad, I used fuzzy math. (Took one order of operations out of order).
So it's 40%. I still say up it then

~49.3 Ice/Ice

[ QUOTE ]
My ice tank is only a baby still, but I've got a question/suggestion.

What if they cut the timer on hoarfrost in half? More accurately, to the point where if you choose, you could perma double stack it without using hasten? That or raise the amount of HP it gives by 20 or 30. How much would having 40-80% more HP help?

[/ QUOTE ]

Currently, the boost number with Hoarfrost is 28.57% (1863.3 up to 2608.6). If it was upped to 70%, my (current) hp would boost to 3167.61. AV's could still one shot me...just much, much less.
Halfing the recharge time (I have 2 recharge SO's in it already...so maybe more to stack it) and then stacking it, with the 70%, would give 5384.94 hit points for a limited time. That might give us something to set us apart from the other sets a little more.

What other ideas have there been so far? Let's get a list going:[*]Keep EA the way it is (or better it). [*]Put a dmg and/or resistance debuff on a power of ours. (preferably an autohit)[*]Put an acc/def debuff onto a power of ours. (preferably an auto hit)[*]Maybe make Icicles autohit? [*]Let one of our powers give us some psi, along with s/l, dmg resistance.[*]Make Hibernate a wee bit more useful than a giant invulnerable popsicle. IE - Let Icicles or CE get out still...maybe as a punishment for said use let us not be invulernable but just give very high Def and Res (to all).[*]Bump either hoarfrost's recharge time, +max hp, or both[*]Seeing how we're in a block of ice, def or res to psi isn't very role-playingish. What if EA, instead of just giving def to all but psi, would give defense to whatever it was we EA'd? Ie - you EA mobs with psionic/energy attacks, you now have defense to both. You EA mobs with s/l/toxic attacks, you now have defense to all three.[/list]
almost lvl 49 Ice/Ice

[ QUOTE ]
I think we can all agree that Energy Absorption needs to be left alone until fixes to Ice Armor come. It is our only defense... literally.

[/ QUOTE ]

EA is the redeeming power in our set, it's the only thing that keeps us alive. Without EA hitting (read carefully) more that 5...MUCH more than 5, being an Ice tanker becomes ridiculously harder, especially past lvl 40.

Again I tested what hitting 5 +2's would do..on +2 freaks. I barely had enough time to hit a tier 3 green and spare myself from some debt. The 2 fire tankers I was with would get hit about as much I was...with EA hitting MORE than 5. Then we herded, and herded, and herded. I'm going to take an estimate and say my EA hit 40 freaks.

I still got hit. Very rarely, but it still happens. Almost got one shotted by a Tank Swiper. Twice.

Honestly...how can EA be overpowered if, even when hitting 30 or more mobs, it allows me to tank nearly as effectively as other sets?

How can anyone think it is overpowered if it's close to bringing us up to par? We've been pretty whine-less when it comes to other powers in our set that are outright useless - we have EA and that brings some dignity to us.

If any changes need to be made to EA, then they should be adding to, not taking away, from this power. If EA is only made to hit 5, or declined in almost any way....being an Ice tank really may become a joke - we wouldn't be able to tank anything nearly as well as any other set.

I haven't gone to Test any of the EA changes (it IS on Test now, correct?)...but I have tested what hitting 5 minions with EA will do.

While wearing FA and WI, I went to fight some wolves. I used EA on 5 of them, then grabbed 2 more groups (of +2 minions). They then decided my defense meant nothing to them, and continued to attempt a rather brutal trouncing. I then used EA again (just before the first wore off) on about 15 wolves. I wasn't nigh-invincible, but I could laugh at any hits that got through. I believe I never went under 80% HP...so I was still getting hit, but nowhere near as often as before.

EA is not too powerful - I don't think it ever will be at it's current setting. Waiting until lvl 26 to be brought to something near the ability of other tanks if painful enough. EA saves the set in my mind. I'm still not as good a tanker as other sets, but reducing EA to hitting 5 is ludicrous.

With EA I was able to tank infernal with even con minions. With only hitting 5 I would have been dead more than alive. I had, roughly, 21 minions w/ 4 lt's and infernal in my EA range (right next to the portal). When I used EA i still recieved damage, but I actually came to par with other tanks I have watched Tank along with me...that were lower levels than me.
I have 3 defense buffs in EA, 3 in WI, 3 in FA. Only when using EA on 10 or more enemies , do I come near the tanking ability of other sets. I have tried tanking +3 mobs before. The only reason I can survive is because of EA. They still hit me, mobs somehow always seem to hit me no matter how many I hit with EA. Dropping the hit to 5 would only solidify Ice tankers as the weakest of the Tank sets.

If you want to drop EA's hit to 5: Give it s/l resistances on top of defense, give it a slightly shorter recharge, and let it drain/slow all enemies in it's proximity.

While were on the subject of how much Ice Tanks are the seemingly most useless set, how about making Icicles auto-hit or some other helpful aspect.

Us 30 ice tanks would really appreciate it. And we'd also appreciate not hearing "OMG AN ICE TANK!!!!" Like we're some rare contracted disease. I've been kicked off teams before for simply being Ice/Ice. Yes, we're definately overpowered. I've only seen 2 lvl 50 Ice tanks. TWO!!

Glenjimo Hasaki - lvl 48 Ice/Ice Tanker on Guardian.

I didn't take the time to read through that huge thread, but was anything ever brought up about giving xp (even if a small amount) from confused enemies? I have a mind control/kinetics controller who is lvl 17, and when I solo I have noticed that confuse is one of my best powers, but I don't get any experience from it Again, I don't know if anyone brought that up in that 200 page thread.

Thanks States for taking care of the controller too

Tama- Guardian