Texan

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llotg's are already going for 75 mill redside. 75 mill. you think the average player can afford that? hell, lighthouse, i've been known to farm a bit (not gonna lie), and i can't afford those.

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here's a hint... then don't!!!

The prices are set by the buyers NOT the sellers. If noone is buying at a given listed price... then guess what... eventually the prices will drop

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So... folks who are already IO'd out win the game and the rest of us should just accept being inferior. I see now.

Brilliant understanding of economics too, I might add. I betcha diamonds would be cheap as glass if people just stopped buying them, wouldn't they?

Prices are set by buyers and sellers based on supply and demand. NCSoft just reduced the supply without affecting the demand at all. On top of that they've been changed the game to cause inflation (i.e. more inf per recipe drop) Guess what that means?

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Such missions have always been intended to be group activities, hence the reason for the minimum group size requirement to start them. We feel that the group size requirements are certainly not onerous and that the need for grouping is a good dynamic in a social environment like City of Heroes. We want to continue to offer good rewards based on a group accomplishment through such missions and maintaining that requirement is the reason for this change.


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For the casual player, you're making it harder to get on PuG SF/TFs. Consider, for a moment, how bloody annoying the Trial of Transcendence is. One person quits for any reason and its uncompleteable. It's such a pain in the [censored] that relatively few people even attempt it, much less complete it. For the casual player you're turning every SF/TF into that now to some extent or another.

For the farmer, all you've done is help them out. Free 8-man spawns without needing fillers.

For folks who want the accolade without having to repeat the boring PvE content for the umpteenth time, you've just flipped them all a big bird. "Lol PvP", right?

All in all, everything I've come to expect from the developers of this game. All it lacks is a regen nerf and a buff to blaster damage.

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I know a lot of people hated the fillers but I had to keep teams together before the league even started. People have left the game and come back, top draft picks have showed for one match and never come back - and a lot of other drama that has gone done across a lot of teams.

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Speakin' as one of the fillers that everybody hates (I guess) well done for herding these cats together Jimmay! It's been some fun matches with Team DJ and I look forward to season 2.

< QQ, > Pew-Pew!

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We are constantly datamining PvP, seeing which side is winning more. The results are not what you expect. One side wins, then the other side, then the balance shifts back, and then back again.

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The data is probably useless because there are so few people doing it at any one time all it takes is a couple of extra players on either side to swing the balance of power. Certainly doesn't help with you get some yahoo that can do nothing but buff come in and take over an EB Heavy and turn it into an AV quallity ally that they can control.

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You are full of it. Why would that even matter, when most of the time it is really whoever is the most organized wins. You could have 6 heroes preventing 15 from leaving the base in Siren's call just because they have their stuff together, and the villains don't pay as much attention because there is more of them. I have seen 8 Villains charge into the heart of the Fort in BB with at least 12 Heroes trying to stop them at any given time. It's not so much that the zones are so empty, as to the fact that a crack squad can dominate. Even if it were more populated, it would be whoever had two or three crack squads running around as opposed to one. Numbers don't turn the tide in CoX, organization does. It has been proven in PvP so very often.

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That's kind of the point, really. Sure, organization > numbers if the opposition is disorganized and that's a good percentage of what zone PvP is. Many of the top end PvP guilds simply avoid the zones since it's just not a challenge unless there is some organized opposition.

Throw on top of that the collusion factor of villains and heroes letting each other take over pillboxes back and forth to farm sigs for badges and turrets for XP and datamining RV is just not a very good way to judge balance.

The problems are much more evident when both sides are organized and tuned - that happens very infrequently in the zones. The only place that reliably happens is in the arena. And how many guilds run SHW villain teams against hero teams competitively now? Hear the sound of crickets?

Positron, and I say this with all due respect, doesn't have a flipping clue about PvP balance if he's judging it based off of datamining RV.

A few points that may assist you in the future when dealing with software and the word "soon" (that is a year and a half down the road after you've actually stopped playing, I guess)

1) Software is always later than they say.
2) Software is always buggier than they say.
3) Before release, people will complain about waiting for it.
4) After release, people will complain about the developers not waiting longer to fix all the bugs.
5) "Soon", with respect to software releases, is a comfort word - it has no real meaning. If they don't give a specific date, then it comes when it comes. If they do give a specific date, see #1.
6) Complaining about any of these facts will change none of them.
7) The company is not responsible to you as an individual. You have no power. You are not a unique snowflake.
8) Given all of the above, it's still better to hear something that may be inaccurate than nothing at all. It's better to have your opinion heard (even if it is ultimately dismissed) than not.

and finally

9) Claiming that 7-8 months doing the same thing is boring and repetitive and threatening to leave to WoW over it is the very definition of irony.

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Seriously though, fear itself doesn't do you any good when as soon as you pop SD you either 1) miss most of them because the radius is so horrible or 2) let them all return fire because you just hit them. It's not the fear that makes you safe, it's dark's formidable ACC debuff.

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Yes, I understand that. The fear keeps them in place so you can position for the SD.

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Sleet scatters the mobs (albeit slowly). They don't have to scatter very much at all to be out of the effect of SD. Same thing for tar patch. There's still the problem of how you actually get them close enough together to use it without dying before you can get the sleet, tar patch, tentacles, whatever down.

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My understanding was that sleet knocked things down. If not, it's because I don't have a /cold that I don't know what I speak of.

Dark/* provides a nice positional control via Tenebrous Tentacles, possibly mixed with Dark Pit to mess with at least minions getting back at you. So just so you know, I don't have a problem positioning foes with Dark/* or */Dark. And notably, having those powersets is why I'm interested in this PPP, since it matches both thematically and (IMO) has nice synergies. I agree that it doesn't do much for some others; that's normal, and (IMO) it's nice that there's a real functional difference in some of the Corruptor sets.


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Like I said, I can see that */rad and */dark could find one way to use it; herding to a corner and massive acc debuff to survive the herding.

TT isn't a positioning tool - it's a way to lock mobs after you've already positioned them. Same thing with fear. Same thing with sleet, yada yada yada. Dark pit is a horrible positioning tool, as confused mobs will just scatter.

Dark has tons of things that immasculate mobs and hold them in place but only one thing that actually positions (i.e. clumps them up in a nice ball for SD) them effectively and safely. Other sets don't even have that.

The thing that lets dark (and rad) herd up and survive is the powerful AoE ACC debuffs. Other corruptor sets can't survive the time it takes to gather mobs up.

Just so you know, I have played many darks and really like the set - it's definitely the strongest PvE set by a mile IMHO. My fire/dark could probably use SD pretty effectively. That's not really my point. This isn't a power just for PvE dark and rad, it's for all corruptors. If a non-dark or non-rad or a PvP'er gets it, then realizes how poor a power it is, they don't have the option to go with another pool.

Increase the range or add a debuff/stun/etc. to make it useful for other sets (or increase the self buf so it can be more effective with fewer mobs hit) and I won't have a complaint with it.

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If the foes can't hit you due to debuffs and/or control effects (held by Choking Cloud, feared/debuffed by Fearsome Stare, etc), there is little to fear from them. Have them stuck in place with Tenebrous Tentacles, Tar Patch or flopping in Sleet and they can't get out of the radius.


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Yay for */dark and */rad. They certainly needed the help in PvE. :P

Seriously though, fear itself doesn't do you any good when as soon as you pop SD you either 1) miss most of them because the radius is so horrible or 2) let them all return fire because you just hit them. It's not the fear that makes you safe, it's dark's formidable ACC debuff.

Sleet scatters the mobs (albeit slowly). They don't have to scatter very much at all to be out of the effect of SD. Same thing for tar patch. There's still the problem of how you actually get them close enough together to use it without dying before you can get the sleet, tar patch, tentacles, whatever down.

I'm still trying to use this power -- I really am -- since I'm stuck with it now and I can't respec out of the pool. However, there is precisely one way to make this power effective for 2 powersets: massive AoE accuracy debuff and herding tightly to a corner. That's not an option for */cold, */kin, */therm or */traps - it's simply too dangerous to for them to try to use for more than a minor self-buff (hitting 2 or 3 mobs at most.) It's a lot safer to just pop 1 small red inspiration.

I stand by my original assessment so far; it's a poor power choice for corruptors. It would be better for brutes, and maybe doms. For ranged squishies it needs either 1) a PbAoE range increase, 2) a decent (or any) acc debuff on the mobs hit or 3) to be scrapped for some other power.

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No, I wasn't clear, but I mean there are Defenders that love it in CoH.

Honestly, I'm looking forward to it on my Corruptor. Not every secondary is going to make good use of it, but Dark and Rade can do so quite nicely with their debuffs and controll effects. And Kinetics is up there anyway (though it might be overkill on them, depending on whether FS can cap their damage already).

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I think you need to try it on your corruptor. You're seriously underestimating how horrible the range is. Dark and rad (who already are the top PvE sets) can maybe arrange things in solo PvE to make the power not utter crap through herding mobs with the anchor debuffs.

A power that's marginally useful to one or two specific solo PvE builds is still a power that's crap overall.

I just hit 41 with Rakshaza on test and tried out Soul Drain. I hadn't used that power from the other sets before, but I have used mire from the kheldians, and I was assuming it was something similar. Mire is pretty awesome, so I was looking forward to something like that to supplement fulcrum shift.

What I"m seeing, however, is a PbAoE +DMG/+ACC (damage buff seems to be about 10% per target hit, assuming acc is similar) with a range of 10 ft (just outside of melee). Testing in the arena shows no debuff icons on the target.

I don't see how this could possibly be considered a good power for any corruptor, in either PvE or PvP.

For PvE: the range is too small to get more than one or two mobs in a spawn. It's way too dangerous to herd up enough mobs tight enough to get a respectable buff out of it, particularly since there's no debuff to help you survive the aggro you draw from trying to use it effecitvely. Fulcrum shift (which is, in every conceivable way, a superior power) is already somewhat dangerous to use to it's fullest extent, and it has a much better range and a respectable foe damage debuff.

In PvP, it's absolutely useless for a corruptor. The only hero that's going to be standing still enough to get an essentially melee PbAOE off against is somebody who's more than tough enough to take anything a cor can dish out (scrapper, blaster, tank) and paste them in return. Even larger range PbAoE's are mostly useless in high level PvP (where everyone is extremely mobile). 10 ft is, frankly speaking, crap.

I could see something like this for a melee AT (like brutes), but it's a fundamentally bad idea to put a melee power into the PPP for a low defense ranged AT. Anyone who picks this up is going to respec out of it at first opportunity IMHO. I regret picking it and wish I had gone for the armor instead.

This power needs to either be tweaked (adding a decent ACC debuff, increasing the range or the damage buff considerably) or it needs to removed from the corruptor PPP and replaced. As it stands now, it's worthless.

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What our builds have shown is that villains can compete with a combination of a solid build, and teamwork regardless of what other villains in the zone do or fail to do.


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You missed my point entirely. Obviously any team that's organized SPECIFICALLY for zone PvP has a better chance at turning the tides of the zone. But that doesn't mean there's balance between the heroes and the villains, especially when a vast majority of the player base is at best, casual and won't be out there organized the way your VG group is. I'd argue to say that a hero group could do the same thing your VG did in a similar situation with less work than you put in, and be just as successful.

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Perhaps you should define what you're looking for in terms of balance. Balance is a very vague term. Sure heroes can put together zone teams. So can villains. That seems balanced to me. The top hero PvP SGs have put constant effort into their builds (ever since the Arena came out) - I would hardly call that "a lot easier."

I don't think you're really getting our point: organized villain PvP teams are very competitive with organized hero PvP teams, perhaps much more than you realize. The imbalances (and I'm sure there are some) are fairly minor.

The team synergy you get from 8 corruptors > any combination of defenders/trollers/blasters you care to name. With I7, mostly corruptors with a few doms is going to be brutal, I think. To be perfectly frank, I'm not sure the heroes can even match that without a much larger team (given equal player skill.) People who are use to thinking of corruptors as some kind of mix of gimped blaster and gimped defender are in for a rude awakening. There's a reason a defender's base damage is so low and they don't get fire or ice blast sets, you know. What corruptors are capable of is that reason.

The only major "imbalance" we see in RV right now is that there's a lot more heroes than villains. That's it. Numbers. The average hero in there isn't any more skilled, isn't any more organized and is not really any more well built than the average villain.

The villains (and even the heroes to some extent) seemed to have convinced themselves that zone control was something the villains couldn't realistically vie for on test; that they were relegated to sitting in the base to be tp ganked during the dimensional reversion cooldown period. Numbers can be overcome by skill and build. That's the main thing we wanted to demonstrate on Corruptor Orgy Night*.

We (meaning LotD, as well as the other top end VGs) already know that on "any given Sunday" we can take on the best heroes have to offer in an open zone and win. While we're taking them on, the uncoordinated villains can be taking and defending the turrets. It's not a slam dunk win, nor a foregone conclusion loss. It's what PvP should be.

Competitive.

*- If you want the story behind that, check out my chat logs from the other night.

To elaborate on my thinking about how cool RV is a little; one of the things that I think is possible with this zone is to actually let the high powered PvP guilds and the more solo and pick-up PvP types actually work together to achieve zone objectives.

For example, the core hunter/killer teams can concentrate on keeping the other side busy/off guard while the pickups work on taking and holding the turrets (which are very much more of a PvE type challenge and are not out of reach of an unoptimized PuG, provided you're not getting ganked by heroes.)

Our second night in RV was very much this way - we spent a lot more time just keeping heroes off balance once we realized there was another villain team (including MMs and brutes) working pillboxes and we managed to take the zone.

I'd like to try this out some more; the idea of factional (not just guild) organization in RV is very appealing. We're kicking around the idea of setting up a scheduled event some weekend very soon to have 2-3 organized guild teams from LotD and other VGs from Freedom (and other servers) with as many pickups as want to come. If we get some good turnout on both sides, it ought to be a blast.

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And the heroes out-gun the villains by lightyears in that respect with 2 debuffing/buffing/healing AT's - who basically enable the heroes to surpass the villains in the offense department as well.

Id like to see the same experiment with less corrupters against an organized hero group.


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Corruptors are the best PvP villain team AT, bar none. Corruptors can cross buff each other to resist caps, end drain, slow, resist debuff and scourge the selected target for truly horrendous DPS through any healing or buffing. We've done it before in Warburg against well organized hero groups in straight up fights. Corruptors are what offenders want to be when they grow up.

So, with what the best villains can offer against the best heroes can offer in zone, I'm still not too worried. As Thor says, the factional imbalances that exist are relatively small and would only show up in very high performance PvP. They require minor tweaks at most.

As far as AT imbalances, you've got a point. It would be nice if there was more diversity in what the "best" was, sure. Unfortunately, I just don't really see that happening without a redesign of the game (COH 2 anyone?) Some ATs (like brutes and MMs) are just, by nature, better suited for PvE. Some ATs (stalkers) are awesome at solo PvP, but don't synergize as well in a larger team. I think MMs and brutes have more potential in RV than any other PvP zone, personally, but we haven't had a chance to run them yet. I'm the biggest proponent of MM PvP in LotD right now, and my highest is still in the 30s.

Something pie-in-the-sky I would like to see that might help encourage faster meta-game evolution, more diversity in builds for both sides and less of a "[censored] did I spend 6 months levelling this gimpy piece of [censored] for?" feeling is some way to level "PvP-only" toons very quickly with easily obtainable unlimited respecs (ala GW.) It's excruciatingly hard to put together a PvP spec if you don't already have the right ATs.

It sucks to spend hundreds of hours grinding a toon up to realize it's just not that effective, particularly if you were a late comer to PvP and didn't realize that you even had to make that choice. It also sucks to get owned in the arena or zone, realize that it's a build issue and basically be stuck until you can re-roll and re-level.

So, to answer your question directly, you're not likely to see us with less corruptors for the time being. We very much hope, however, to see more organized hero and villain groups in RV both on test and on live. I think it would be awesome to get a half dozen or so organized SG/VGs fighting for control of RV at the same time.

Just my $.02

A_V - thanks for the update. Glad to know it was a bug and is being fixed.

The only reason we couldn't take the zone last night was that we had client stability problems and we ran into that bugged pillbox (and wasted some time trying to figure out what was going on.) We were within 10 seconds of taking the zone at one point and were edging ever closer.

We learned quite a few lessons about zone strategy that we used tonight when we captured the zone with a similar team build and against similar odds. More importantly, we saw more villains out and about - there was a second villain group working on pillboxes this time.

Remember, this was our first serious foray into the zone; we originally came in to just do straight PvP as a diversion from levelling and to maybe teach some base camping heroes a lesson about laziness. We were figuring out on the fly what to do and how to prioritize.

The team we ran in RV is pretty much one of the same ones we run in the other zones against the other top end PvP SG and VGs on Freedom. We have a lot of experience and practice running it in open zone PvP. While we were late to get into Arena and are still kinda working on our builds and tactics for it, I feel LotD is the best open zone PvP group (hero or villain) in the game.

There are also quite a number of other good PvP villain groups on Freedom that we've fought with and against that will most definitely be in the zone with us. With 2 or 3 guilds in the zone simultaneously (a very real possibility on Freedom), I'm looking forward to some truly epic battles.

I have no fear for the villains ability to take RV on Freedom. It'll be a hell of a fight, no doubt about it, but it's gonna be mega fun.

As far as EPPs versus PPPs, I'll admit I was (and still am) dissapointed with the patron power pools but they honestly have made next to no difference in PvP that I can see so far. We've seen scrappers/tanks with FA, blasters with PFF or force of nature, trollers with hibernate, yada yada yada. Against cross-buffed corruptors and domination they just die (or they run.)

Remember we're all running with level 40 corruptors and doms without all the slotting and extra powers from 41-50. Even if we don't take any PPP's at all (which some of us are seriously considering) I don't see it as a major balance issue.

Lords of the Dead (from Freedom) brought a team of 7 corruptors and 1 dominator into RV last night about 11pm eastern. When we came in, a number of heroes were camping the villain base. We buffed up inside the base and busted out, clearing the campers within 30 seconds or so. We spent the first hour or so ignoring the pillboxes and just killing heroes.

We picked up Soul of Priest as a ninth cor for a bit along the way and there were a few random villains here and there around where we were fighting. The odds were somewhere between 3:1 and 2:1 in favor of heroes all night and at no point did the heroes ever "let us win." In fact, after a while, we started seeing heroes in broadcast trying to get organized to come after us.

At the end of the first hour, we took a break and one of our members went back through his logs; we made 80 kills in that first hour and had less than 5 deaths. We then started running pillboxes primarily and killing only the heroes that showed up against us. For the next two hours, neither side was able to take the zone. Several times we were one pillbox away from taking it, and I'm pretty sure we were competing against 2 hero teams (we would see two pillboxes go to heroes very quickly.) Somebody also did the recall friend thing on one of the hero pillboxes, making it impossible for villains to take (a very <censored> thing to do IMHO.) We finally gave up when four or five of us (!) had our clients lock up and crash at nearly the same time. By the time we all would have been able to get back in and get organized the heroes would have won the zone.

Final kill tally was around 120 with at most 1 or 2 deaths per team member (with a few who never died at all.)

This isn't meant to be a brag (much ), but more of a statement on villain effectiveness in high level PvP. Whatever worries I ever had about RV being unbalanced against villains are pretty much gone. Skill, organization and good builds can still beat superior numbers; same as every other zone. A smaller organized team can take and hold pillboxes against a larger unorganized one.

To those who were in last night (hero and villain), it was a wicked fun fight, some of the best zone PvP we've seen in a long, long time. We hope to do it again very soon.

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I believe that my post on the previous page stands, the Force field set has been [censored] so that the other MM's could benefit.

The FF set, needs something to counteract the massive amount of nerfs they've been hammered with to pull them out of the basement of PVP usefulness.

It is my belief that NO class should be considered "PVE only" ...ever.

~Walks Among You~

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Your post has kinda turned from a "bodyguard sucks" (which I disagree with) to a "FF needs help" (which I do agree with.)

Anyway..

Again, I don't play FF so I can't really comment on how much FF has been affected based on personal experience. All I'll say is that I was told before I rolled my nin/poison that ninjas were totally gimp (very weak, melee so they can't get to anything, yada yada yada), but they've turned out to be frighteningly good in the right circumstances. My challenge as a nin MM was to maximize those circumstances.

If you did had to rely mainly on PFF to be effective in PvP, that does sound screwed up. Personally, I think having a "you can't hit me without major buffs" power that you can turn on and off at will is broken (no matter the AT), but if you're saying FF needs a buff to make up for the loss of that, the loss of toggle dropping with force bolt, the ubiquitousness(sp?) of knockback protection (FF's main secondary effect) and the reduction in effectiveness of force bubble, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you.

The other powers in FF do need to be buffed to be more effective IMHO. Force bolt, for one, seems to be pretty useless now (according to what a few FF MM guildies have told me)

Do some tests, show how FF underperforms compared to other sets. Suggest some changes to FF. I'll be right there with you.

Bodyguard by itself, however, is an awesome buff for both PvE and PvP. I'll continue to stand by that.

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Only two questions:
1. Did the people that you PvP against, I'm assuming this was done in the Arena or maybe in FC, let you bring your all of your pets and completely upgrade them before they engaged you?


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Mostly arene so far. I specifically told them to come at me as fast as they could - no holds barred. All 3 pet tiers are summoned within a few seconds on startup, faster than the opponent can possibly get to me. The instant the pets show up they're on bodyguard and protecting me while I buff them.

In one match, a stalker AS'd me as I was putting the 2nd pet buff on, my ninjas turned and beat the snot out of him as I finished buffing. (BTW: it was funny as hell to see 7 "ASSASSIN STRIKE" messages go up )

Against the BS/regen with headsplitter (the only one to beat me solo and one of only two to even kill me), I ran like the dickens when I respawned until I could get pets back. He won 4-1 I think. What's amazing about that is that he got the first kill; I managed to get respawned and take him out once. He also told me afterward that he had blown an entire (level 50) tray of inspirations to my half (level 30) tray.

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2. Or was this done in a open zone with fully upgraded pets not including FC rules?

Just curious...

Cheers!

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Haven't done much zone yet (and I never do FC ), but I'm looking forward to trying it. I spent quite a bit of time with both my bots/traps and my nin/poison in BB and Siren's on live over the last few months trying to get a good feel for it, and I think it could be made to work. My only unsurmountable problem on live is (and always was) the blaster or scrapper jumping in and 2 shotting me.

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Nothing got taken away from you to add this.

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Something *DID* get taken away, my ability to effectively challenge people one on one has been decimated.


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You're making the rather large assumption that the PFF nerf had anything to do with bodyguard. Personally, I think that, right or wrong, some kind of PFF nerf was coming anyway.

As for 1v1 effectiveness, I think that MMs as a class are (with bodyguard) now the kings of 1v1 PvP with the right tactics and right builds. Caveat: It may well be the case that */FF is no longer the best MM PvP build (in which case I definitely feel for you.) I don't have enough experience with it to make a judgment on how much FF's effectiveness had changed. I do think you're underestimating how powerful bodyguard can be, however.

However, so far with my ninja/poison I've beaten every single SG mate (hero and villain) I've faced in the arena except a very well built BS/regen scrapper and then only if he played at 32+ and got headsplitter (my MM is only 30 - no 2nd upgrade and I haven't optimized for PvP yet). If he fought me at 27-31 it was mostly a standoff unless my Oni got his immob stacked on him (which happened once or twice) and my jounin got caltrops down. In which case the ninja's melee in combination with the */poison debuffs (yay -regen!) wiped him out pretty quick.

I've destroyed stalkers, warshades, blasters, corruptors, defenders. Most non high damage builds (everything except the BS scrapper and the fire blapper) I almost don't have to be at the keyboard for. I sat playing "afk" for one bout with an EM stalker and he simply could not kill me before the pets messed him up.


These are not PvP noobs either - these are well tested and powerful "FOTM" builds with competent players behind them.

MM versus MM 1v1 are interesting in a way I hadn't encountered in PvP before. The tactics are not (to me anyway) as straightforward as most arena matches. Do you go for the MM and take his pets replying to you through bodyguard? Do you go at his pets and let him switch to aggressive on you? Do you kill the boss pet first, or work through the minions? How do you fit your debuffs/buffs/attacks into the mix?

It is pretty obvious, however, that the most effective use of this is in a relatively static fight. I'm considering changing super jump out for SS+CJ+hurdle (since I need to stay tethered to supremacy range) I'm definitely picking up the medicine pool ( both for the self heal and aid other).

I haven't had a chance to run with my guild in zone yet to judge how effective my nin/poison would be in a team setting. It seems obvious that it would be less so, but it does not seem obvious that I would suddenly become a liability. It seems more likely that I would be just barely dangerous and mosly not worth the effort to kill without overwhelming firepower (sorta like most tanks, brutes or scrappers). I'm reserving judgement on that until I can get a fair test.

I still do feel that the supremacy range should indeed be increased in both the arena and the zones.

As far as the pets not attacking mobs that attack you in PvE (a different poster), my /bug report on that was acknowledged and the behavior is indeed a bug. They're trying to reproduce it on the internal server now. I'll keep you posted if anything comes out of it.

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All I want is a nice shiny button to put my crew into BG.

I have no idea or clue on how to macro, nice ol big shiny button please. Yea I am a computer neanderthal.

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Type the following command:

/macro f_d petcom_all follow defensive

Gives you a button called "f_d" on your power tray that puts your pets into defensive follow. I now use that in place of the "Heel" button pretty regularly.

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It was not the most scientific testing, but it showed me that they do perform basically the same. I think what made me feel there was something wrong was twofold. The first being that the thug seems a lot slower than the merc. Slower to run, slower to begin his attacks. Even when directly told to attack he doesn't do it as fast as the merc.


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Interesting. I was playing with it in a Mayhem mission last night with my thugs and it seemed like they would not attack mobs that were attacking me no matter what I did. To be fair though, I didn't really wait more than 10-15 seconds (or I would have died). I didn't try it with my ninjas or bots - maybe the type of pet makes a difference. I went ahead an /bug'ed it for what it's worth.

Now that you mention it, the thugs are definitely slow to react. I had put it down to test server lag, but I hadn't had a chance to compare it extensively to my other MMs.

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I couldn't understand why my mercs on test kept going into aggressive mode when I had them in defensive and was issuing follow commands. They don't do that on live. I think my thug the other night was doing the same, but that was actually a different thug MM than the one I tested tonight (different secondary). I noticed with my merc MM that there's a problem with the power tray which may be related to the problem I ran into when creating both new MMs on test.


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I've heard some reports of binds and macros getting messed up in the character transfer. You might double check them (even the 3 "built-in" ones) I definitely remember that my power trays did not look the same after I copied over (for one thing, the 3 "built-in" pet control macros were dropped off it) and I had to recreate some macros, but I didn't remember the specifics. My thugs/TA is from scratch on test, so I haven't had a problem with it.

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If I'm opening the fight and my henchman are on def/follow, and bodyguard kicks in, that's all well and good. But to assume that ALL MM players are going to be able to command 6 pets, watch their own plus 6 pet's health, attack, debuff, heal, whatever, AND be able to predict which attacks are aimed at the MM or that an aoe attack is incoming, so that the MM can quickly toggle to bodyguard is a little ridiculous.

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Personally I play a MM becuase I like to micro-manage. I haven't had a problem keeping up with it so far. I'm constantly managing orders and stances anyway, so it wasn't a big adjustment to add this wrinkle in. YMMV.

If someone doesn't want to or is unable to micro-manage stances/orders that finely, I can see where bodyguard would be more situational. However, with the right binds/macros it's not too difficult (IMHO) and the effect is pretty amazing.

To say that it "sucks" is a bit of an exaggeration. At worst you're no worse off than you were before. Nothing got taken away from you to add this. If you don't want to use it, you don't have to. A very easy use for it is to treat it as a kind of resist-based instant on/instant off PFF - pop it when you get too much aggro on you and need to retreat or get those heals/debuffs down, or you need to get buffs on those pets you just resummoned.

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That isn't what I'm seeing on test.

Since no red name has come in here to say they're looking at it, or it's working as intended, or it's a bug in one type of pet, the only conclusion I can reach about bodyguard is that it sucks.

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Then that's a bug in stance/command management on test and should be flagged as such (via /bug). It doesn't really have anything to do with bodyguard. Bodyguard is someting extra you get when your pets are in def/follow, if I understand it correctly - it shouldn't take away any AI functionality you already have on live in def/follow. In other words, your pets should not do something different in def/follow just because bodyguard is there - all that should happen is damage that goes to the MM gets spread out.

It's possible that some unrelated change (perhaps trying to fix "wonky" pet AI in certain circumstances?) is messing with the pet AI.

I personally haven't seen a difference between stance response in PvE (other than it doesn't seem to reliably work in either live or test for me), but I haven't really looked at pet AI that deeply. I can look more into it tonight. If I can nail down something specific about how the pets act or don't act that doesn't seem right, I'll /bug it.

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if mezzing doesnt drop bodyguard, i wonder if PFF/invis/phase does...

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PFF drops supremacy, which will drop bodyguard.

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I have not tested this personally (still at work) but I've been told by someone whose opinion I trust that none of the "affect only self" powers (including invis, PFF, phase) seem to remove bodyguard. Bodyguard does not seem to be tied directly to supremacy at all. It merely seems to have the same range as supremacy.

A red name confirmation on that would be nice.

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In PvE, defensive/follow does not seem to work as well in that the pets will often just stand there next to me doing nothing as the ambush beats on me. Bodguard also doesn't work quite as well from an offensive standpoint when multiple targets are beating on you (it's more difficult to encourage the pets to attack a single target.)

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So true. Last night while playing a new character with one thug, I took notice. In every fight, the second I put my pet on follow he stopped fighting. But that's been the case pre-I7. I expected them with this bodygaurd change to continue to fight. At least until I was far enough away from them that they'd have no choice but to follow, or until I swapped them to passive.

I tried different versions of editing the pet commands. Attack defensive works, he stays in defensive. It's the darned follow command that messes everything up. There has to be a separate command to allow for defensive attacking with bodyguard on without having to issue a follow command, or it will be pretty much useless in PvE. For me, anyway.

Why is it that some players are saying how great this is and it works fine for them, but others can't seem to get it to work?

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Dunno. Personally, I've never seen this work right in PvE, on test or on live. In PvP, however, both on test and on live it works great (i.e. just leaving them in defensive follow)

The trick in PvE on test, as it stands now, is to put them into bodyguard right when and only when you're taking a direct attack. With some practice, you can keep them in attack most of the time, recall to bodyguard for a second or so to absorb an incoming attack, then resume beating on your target.

Remember - there's absolutely no delay in when bodyguard becomes effective. Unless you're mezzed or somehow unable to issue commands to your pets you can switch in and out immediately on demand.

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I tested it yesterday with my 40 mm and I like it, but...
let's face it, it's overpowered in PvE, not only that, it makes */dark masterminds even far more overpowered than they already were. Just sit and spam the AoE heal around your mobs. My /poison MM was almost godlike yesterday, and I only had a single target heal, can only infer what it's like with a /dark

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Personally, I did not find bodyguard to be anywhere near as effective in PvE; at least not if you just "sit and spam heals." It has to be used much more selectively and reactively. Even in PvP, the best effect seems to come from switching back and forth between attack and bodyguard selectively.

In PvE, defensive/follow does not seem to work as well in that the pets will often just stand there next to me doing nothing as the ambush beats on me. Bodguard also doesn't work quite as well from an offensive standpoint when multiple targets are beating on you (it's more difficult to encourage the pets to attack a single target.)

What I have found it useful for is summoning and buffing in hot doors (the pets take the damage coming in on me immediately on summoning until I get them buffed and the mobs debuffed. Then I switch them to attack.)

It's also very useful when you get hit by some major DoT, like a mook boss full auto, or a bone daddy gloom. You can actually switch to bodyguard in the middle of the DoT and immediately reduce the damage of the remaining ticks.

Furthermore, if you watch your buff bar closely, you can actually instantly switch to bodyguard as soon as you see the attack icon show up and you will still get the benefit of bodyguard. I was practicing it with my 10 thugs/TA on test last night and I could do it pretty consistantly. I used this a lot in the mayhems to survive ambushes (which, as we all know, ignore your pets and come straight at you) by switching to bodyguard when I was under attack and staying in "attack my target" between attacks.

Another thought; PvE tends to have a lot more AoE flying around. Stuff that killed your pets quickly before will still kill your pets quickly; dark or not.

Dark's dominance in PvE is another issue entirely. I don't think bodyguard really affects that one way or the other.

MMs are extremely tough in 1v1 battles against squishies right now. Over many test bouts in the arena last night (defenders, blasters, corruptors, stalkers, warshades and doms) the only time they managed to kill me was once or twice by going 2-on-1 when I was playing "AFK". I fought a fire/em to a draw the day before yesterday (2 mutual kills, 1 win, 1 loss).

Bodyguard makes you extremely resistant to single target damage. OTOH, heavy AoE can mess you up, so you'll want to keep moving around; in supremacy range but not standing in the middle of your pets. It's so fast to switch between attack and defense that you can effectively initiate attacks and immediately switch back to def/follow as the pets do their attack animation.

The squishy that game me the most trouble was a dark/elec defender, because he could keep my end (and my pets) nearly perma-drained if I stood still for it.

I really wish I had a medium to high level */dark MM to see how well TG can keep your minions healed. It seems, offhand, like you would be nearly impossible for a squishy to kill 1v1.

A good high damage scrapper would probably still waste me. A 50 BS/regen took me out when I was doing my "AFK" imitation in 15-20 seconds in one test and 30-45 in another. I don't really have any hope of killing him solo even if he just stood there and took it, so from one shot kill to 15-20 seconds with lucky crits is a huge improvement.

Some more observations:

1) Mezzing does not drop bodyguard. As long as you're in the stance and the pets are in range you're protected - supremacy does not actually have to be active on the pet buff bar.
2) The pets (at least my ninjas) seem to be tethered to supremacy range. Even when I was mezzed, the pets would tend to stay in bodyguard range when the dom ran away.
3) At least with ninjas (which are pretty fast), if I got TP'ed and mezzed at the same time (ala wormhole from the grav dom) the opponent had maybe a second or two to do something before the pets got right back into supremacy range.)
4) A stalker's BU+AS took out just over 1/4 of my life, didn't kill any of the pets (although it was wierd to see ASSASSIN STRIKE show up 7 times ) and the pets immediately turned and caltroped him. Against both a claws and an EM they simply could not kill me 1v1 (if they stayed to try to scrap, the ninjas would mess them up - if they kited, i would heal through natural regen (yay health!) before they got back to try again.

I'm thinking now that it may actually be as fast (or maybe faster) to attack and kill the individual pets first and run the MM out of resummons. Even in that case, MMs become a major PITA to kill in a static fight.

The more I try it, the more I like it. YMMV.

BTW, he told me that at one point he had 3 stacking taunt icons on him during one of our slugfests.