Incarnates: Mythology Connection?
By
40Thieves,
Posted on: 2005-05-20 15:26 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
[ QUOTE ]
That's the curse statesman and arachnos bear... the curse of supreme power.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's a curse I'd love my tanker to have!
You have all this power... now what do you do with it? Do you fulfill your own wants and desires? or, do you give only to others?
Both Arachnos and Statesman could consider themselves "good guys".
Perhaps Arachnos believes that humanity is too selfish, too weak, to truly accomplish anything, and so requires strong leadership in order to achieve.
And perhaps Statesman believes that, given time, humanity will become something better than it is today, with a little nudge here, and a little nudge there.
For both, their goal is peace, and security. Ot's how they go about it.
[ QUOTE ]
Well, more nitpickiness, but the Vikings were pretty darn nasty. They didn't relish battle, they relished loot. That's why many of their attacks were directed against essentially undefended targets: Coastal Villages, Monastaries and churches, etc. And they seemed to get a big kick out of slaughtering everyone wherever they landed, whether offering opposition or not. Viking mythology certainly glorified battle, but their actions simply glorified the acquisition of wealth. (Hmm.. sounds kind of familiar actually. 
)
[/ QUOTE ]
Ehhhh, I think you've read too many silly stories.
While there were indeed viking raiders during the 8th-11th century the majority of their trips abroad were mainly for trade. Viking traders sailing as far as Constantinopel (modern day Istanbul) to trade fur, amber and other goods for the goods of the continent (such as silk and jewelry).
At other times they build small kingdoms, such as Normandy (which btw is a good place to start, being a synthesis between frankish and viking customs and ideals).
And sometimes they raided, primarily for wealth (because no man has ever been able to fill his stomach with glory).
As for wanton slaughter, that was the standard praxis for EVERY army until the 19th century, wether viking, christian, muslim or celtic.
When it comes to "relishing battle" they did it mostly on the home court and the constant feuding between the various "clans" didn't really cease until the establishment of a strong central power, which for example in sweden wasn't until the early 16th century with Gustav Vasa.
[ QUOTE ]
A lot of people assume Hades is evil and nasty because he rules over tartarus where those that were sinful are punished for all eternity. What people often forget is that he also ruled over the Alesian (sp?) feilds where those that were good, live happily and peacefuly in the after life.
Hades was just the caretaker of souls, he wasn't exactly the Greek version of Satan. Hades didn't tempt people into sinning, quite the opposite probably... less work for him.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is not intended to bring up a discussion on the merits of various religions; I have absolutely no interest in pursuing that type of thing either IRL or online.
Yes, very true. What many modern folks have a hard time understanding is that the ancient Greek and Roman gods were not assumed to be "perfect". To my knowledge, this is a Judeo/Christian thing more than anything else. Many religions (or cultures, you decide which word you prefer) ascribe much more human attributes to their gods than modern Christians. Heck, if one actually reads the Bible, you'd find that the Christian god (God, if you prefer) is traditionally as vengeful as any ticked off mortal.
The whole sin thing isn't where we want to go either. Just remember that we modern men (and women) tend to apply modern thinking and ideals to ancient peoples. This makes for a poor understanding of the Ancients, in my opinion. That's all I wanted to say, really.
[ QUOTE ]
Ehhhh, I think you've read too many silly stories.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, actually, most of the silly stories portray vikings as a warrior race. You are correct that they were mostly traders and such, few civilizations after Sparta and Persia subsisted primarily on warfare. However, there were Viking raiders, and they were merciless and tended to pick the easiest targets. This did not distinguish them from other Sea or Land raiders of the day, but it did distinguish them from the description given of them in the quote I was responding to. I was not giving an analysis of Norse culture, rather responding to a particular description of their warriors. I don't want to get involved an a history war here, just clarifying the context of my comment.
You just KNOW you have a kickass dev team when they post at 7 A.M. on a saturday.
anybody play The God of War?? I finished it off today...in the end...Aries looks a lot like Lord Recluse... 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One of the things which is truly challenging to the judeo-christian mindset to grasp about the ancient Greeks was that they did not really believe in good and evil as absolute values as we do.
[/ QUOTE ]
That is a complete load of codswallop. I've read a sufficient amount of Victorian-era antiquarian classicisists' work to know quite certainly that those very "judeo-christian" scholars had no problem at all with such concepts. You are merely projecting your own narrow prejudices regarding those who happen to be either "Judeo" or "Christian".
[/ QUOTE ]
I believe that The Monocle was speaking in regards to "the masses"...and not the scholars. Scholars are educated people, they would understand such differences between societies & cultures. "The masses" may not.
Having grown up in a parochial school, thus fed interpretations of various religions from over the centuries as well as the Catholic dogma, I can tell you from experience that unless "the masses" take it upon themselves to understand such things, they won't. And unfortunately...most in "the masses" don't. Those that do....well, they are no longer part of "the masses," now are they?
Unless they have taken it upon themselves to learn these differences, if you were to ask one of "the masses" that have a Judeo or Christian mindset what they thought of the Ancient Greeks...you will probably get an answer close to "they were misguided for being Pagans (believing in multiple dieties)." And if you were then to ask those same people what they thought of Pagans...more than likely they would say that Pagans were evil. I've seen this first-hand in many different parts of our own country (The U.S.) - which is supposed to be the most understanding and tolerant of countries. In fact, have you even listened to our own "enlightened President" when he speaks on religion? There's one for "the masses" for you.
But I digress...and have gone off on a tangent here. Please, continue the discourse on wether Statesmand IS Zeus, and Incarnate of Zeus...or simply an Avatar of Zeus. (Yes...there is a difference.)
No excuse for trying to knock of Judaism/Christianity, though, especially when you make a statement as broad as
[ QUOTE ]
One of the things which is truly challenging to the judeo-christian mindset to grasp...
[/ QUOTE ]
Seriously. Speaking of which, I am a christian who can entertain other religious beliefs without accepting them, up to and including Mythology. (which I like) Does that make me a scholar?
As for Statesman... *sigh* Why oh why must he be an incarnate/avatar of Zeus, or any Greek God? Those gods could never be heroic; When they go into a battle, they were untouchable unless another god was involved - Their whim is law, no matter how vicious or misguided, and they were just as fallible as any human. Powerful? You bet. Heroic? Not in their life.
Of course, I'm probably just bitter - The real hero of The Iliad [hector] got severely shortchanged by them.
Dawnslayer on Virtue.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
inspired by the shoulder-to-shoulder discipline showed by ancient Greek soldiers in the face of Persian tyranny
[/ QUOTE ]
Also note that one of Statesman's greatest nemesis is... ahem... Nemesis, the 'Persian Prince of Automatons'.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hate to nitpick... or pick a bone... or pick something (preferably not my nose).. but he's the Prussian Prince of Automatons. Sorry.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't recall any stories about Zeus being a super patriot for the united states, either, Chort, so they probably won't have to be exact copies of the gods they represent.
That's assuming of course, that Lord Recluse comes from Greek Mythology. It's unlikely that the incarnates will be the embodiements of only greek gods. They'll probably be any gods, so Lord Recluse could come from any mythology.
[/ QUOTE ]
Further, maybe the Statesman character isn't meant to literally be Zeus, but is meant to share the same role(s) as Zeus, as the re-occuring personification of lightning, power, and authority, and like the lightning gods of old is the royality/ruler of his pantheon. Maybe as the "incarnation of lightning," Statesman is filling the modern-mythological role that has, in the past, been filled by Zeus, Thor, Enlil, Tlaloc, Set, Vayu, Wakinyan Tanka, etc.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't recall any stories about Zeus being a super patriot for the united states, either, Chort, so they probably won't have to be exact copies of the gods they represent.
[/ QUOTE ]
Let's not forget the alternate-dimension Statesman, Tyrant. He's a super-dictator, not a super-patriot. Maybe each Incarnate is allowed a certain amount of free will.
[ QUOTE ]
He's a super-dictator, not a super-patriot. Maybe each Incarnate is allowed a certain amount of free will.
[/ QUOTE ]
If they get their powers from drinking from a fountain, then I would guess that they can do whatever the hell they want with their power.
Just another case of how the man makes the power, rather than the power making the man.
Dawnslayer on Virtue.
then why are the warriors such a CRAPPY villian group? they should be THE BEST given their context, but its like youve forgotten about them! time to flesh them out!
The Hellions and Skulls have a nice conclusion to their arc with Bonefire. Trolls and Outcasts do okay in the Hollows. The Family and the Warriors really don't get much of their own. The Tsoo, too, could use a nice conclusion (we need to fight Tub Ci someday).
But this is all off-topic - I agree with you.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
Two notes.
Being 'an' Incarnate might not mean you are the sole vessel for the power of any single God, I would argue. Probably, they are supposed to be more in line with the heroes of ancient Greece. Some of them, like Heracles or Aeneas, were the direct children of a God. Others however (the majority if I recall correctly), like Odysseus or Theseus were simply 'inspired' or maybe 'sponsored'.
While not related, these often had their own patron Gods who would watch over them nevertheless. The tale of Paris comes to mind (still can't believe some American actually gave his daughter a guy's name). He picked Aphrodite as the most beautiful goddess and she looked out after him above and beyond granting him his one wish. In other words, there could be more Avatars of Zeus (for example) running around, not just one in the US.
Also, if we go by this theory of divine inspiration, then we don't even have to assume that Recluse is inspired by a Greek deity. Of course, the helmet design would suggest it, but it might just as well be that he is an Avatar of Kali or Shiva (as the extra 'arms' would suggest), and there may well be others out there. Once you include obscure sects from every religion that has ever existed, the number of Gods becomes Legion.
Unneeded Sidenote: Earlier in this thread it was suggested that the concept of 'good' and 'evil' as associated with the divine is Christian or Judeo-Christian in origin. That is not so. For all known facts, Judaism adopted the idea of the good/evil duality during the time of Babylonian captivity. There, they were exposed to Persian Zoroasrianism which centered around the duality of light/good as embodied by Zoroaster (Zarathustra) and dark/evil as embodied by Ahrimaan.
While this is obviously classical susperstition based on the fact that at night, without fire, most predators would be superior to humans; that you cannot see at night and men fear what they do not know etc. it might well be the added moral element that allowed the Jehova cult to develop from a Semitic tribal religion into the world's largest organized religion with a myriad of subsects.
"If you're going through hell, keep going."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
* Manticore also dropped that Statesman has a unique ability which is represented on his Heroclix figure: The lightning of Zeus.
[/ QUOTE ]
only one problem......that lightning bolt on the figure is on ALL Heroclix figures. It shows how many attacks that figure can make on his turn. just FYI
[/ QUOTE ]
I was not referring to his attacks. I was referring to Quake and Pulse Wave. I baked those into the design of his dial to represent his ability to call upon the Lightning of Zeus.
~M
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, Incarnate refers to a deity. Statesman is "Zeus Incarnate" Zeus in the Flesh. Zeus inhabits the body of Statesman.
Likely hades inhabits the body of Lord Recluse.
[/ QUOTE ]
'Cept Hades is Zues' brother, not arch enemy.
Chronos perhaps... but I doubt Hades.
[ QUOTE ]
Some of them, like Heracles or Aeneas, were the direct children of a God. Others however (the majority if I recall correctly), like Odysseus or Theseus were simply 'inspired' or maybe 'sponsored'.
[/ QUOTE ]
"And here comes Odysseus! Brought to you by Zeus, King of the gods! Single and lonely? Pray to Zeus!"
... Okay, you can have your thread back now. I'm done. 
[ QUOTE ]
Seriously. Speaking of which, I am a christian who can entertain other religious beliefs without accepting them, up to and including Mythology. (which I like) Does that make me a scholar?
[/ QUOTE ]
Depends on how much xp you've gained.
If you've not dinged 'scholar' lvl yet, I would be happy to PL you for a small fee.
I'm really leaning toward the theory that if Recluse is the Incarnate of a God, it's a fictional one. Like an evil spider god who had this secret cult.
And the reason the Vikings became especially villified in the literature that came out of the time was that they were one of the last remaining pagan civilizations with any strength. The majority of Europe had become Christian centuries before the Scandinavians, so when they sailed the coasts and started hacking people up in Christian monasteries and towns, that was pretty shocking.
However, if you look at a source like Tacitus's Germania, written in the first century, he refers to the Germanic tribes (from whom the "Vikings" were an offshoot) as a very warlike poeple who very much glorified battle. He even went as far to say as to describe them as lazy: they'd rather get what they have by taking it by force then making it themselves. Of course, Tacitus had a huge Roman ego, and got numerous facts wrong, so take it what it's worth.
Fictional gods...Possible. The PAragon universe seems to have both gods from our mythologies (Hermes comes to mind...Magic-origin SOs, anyone?) and original ones (Tieleku, Hekat, Ermeeth...Not to mention the Banished Pantheon).
I was not trying to denigrate Judeo-christian values. I was merely pointing out that absolute values of good and evil are an inherent part of this value system. Our own modern thinking is so much a part of this system that it is sometimes difficult to recall that various cultures and time periods felt differently about these things.
[ QUOTE ]
I was under the impression that while Zeus did make life harder for mankind, it was as a response to the actions of prometheus. After prometheus' first transgression against Zeus teaching mankind to cheat zeus of some of his sacrifices, he mand the earth less bountifull and removed fire from the world. After prometheus restored fire, Zeus exacted punishment on him and also saw to the creation of pandora and her box which lead to all the evils present in the world today, (pandora was made wife to One of prometheus's brothers)
[/ QUOTE ]
That brother is a character I play on City of Heroes. His name is Ephemetheus. My version of him is a Fire/Fire tank who was given mastery over a living flame by his brother.
[ QUOTE ]
While there were indeed viking raiders during the 8th-11th century the majority of their trips abroad were mainly for trade. Viking traders sailing as far as Constantinopel (modern day Istanbul) to trade fur, amber and other goods for the goods of the continent (such as silk and jewelry).
[/ QUOTE ]
Further than that even. There's ample evidence of trade with Arabia as well. And of course the runic graffitti found in a few places in Greece (which is closer to scandinavia than present-day Turkey, but I always get a kick out of the visual).
Of course they did once surround Miklagard (Constantinople) and had to be bribed out of completely leveling the place, which would have seriously changed the way history unfolded. You have to differentiate between Norsemen and the sub-group within that culture that were called "Vikings" who were pirates and traders mostly depending on whim. Vikings were not the "creme de la creme" of Norse society and were, in fact, encouraged to basically go off and be violent bastards in someone else's country.
So yes, many Norse ships were just trading vessels. Viking ships were more like more like a pack of Hell's Angels riding through town. They could start a lot of trouble, or maybe today they just want a beer and a place to crash.
[ QUOTE ]
When it comes to "relishing battle" they did it mostly on the home court and the constant feuding between the various "clans" didn't really cease until the establishment of a strong central power, which for example in sweden wasn't until the early 16th century with Gustav Vasa.
[/ QUOTE ]
Don't forget Harald Fair Hair. He unified these "clans" (I prefer to think of them as small pseudo-kingdoms) as well and long before that, mainly through brute force. He's the main reason Iceland got as many colonists as it did (they were fleeing him at the time). And as far as relishing battle, yeah they (Vikings, that is. Not talking about Norsemen in general) did. Just look through Egil's saga, which reads more like someone's police file than an actual story. You can't come up with a concept like Holmgang and not relish fighting. 
Also, let's not forget they constantly fought with Finns, Slavs, etc. so I must disagree on that point at least. Unless you want to lump Estonia, Russia, etc as Scandinavian clans
Just because you bear the power of Zeus does not actually make one, Zeus, i suppose.
If the power existed as kind of a neutral way, almost like a gun.
A gun can be used to kill innocents, or kill food to make sure those innocents don't starve.
That's the curse statesman and arachnos bear... the curse of supreme power.