Incarnates: Mythology Connection?

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well, his mask is sort of greeky helmety. (or is it spartan?)

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Random nitpick, don't know if anyone's mentioned already, but Spartans -are- Greek Sparta was one of the Greek city-states.

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FYI

Jack (i.e. me) has a BA in Classical Civilization, a MA in Ancient History and a MA in Greek & Latin. My specialty: ancient religion. I know ancient Greek, Latin, Italian, French, German, some Aramaic, Coptic, etc.

Basically, I'm EXTREMELY picky with mythology. Trust me on that.

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I'm scared now

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Don't be. He obviously took a bunch of easy classes.

[/ QUOTE ] Top Cow's COH Issue 2 harken and read it

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A blue box appears and Statesman pops out saying "missed me chaps?" to Manticore and co?

(grrr, just read the first one, can't .. wait .. )

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FYI

Jack (i.e. me) has a BA in Classical Civilization, a MA in Ancient History and a MA in Greek & Latin. My specialty: ancient religion. I know ancient Greek, Latin, Italian, French, German, some Aramaic, Coptic, etc.

Basically, I'm EXTREMELY picky with mythology. Trust me on that.

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Too busy writing to become a Post hole Digger, eh?

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Ok, so there have been a lot of cool theories about what an Incarnate is...but I'd like to throw another thing in the mix.

* Onthe CoH website, when they describe Statesman's return from WWI as a costumed superhero they described him as having powers " It was undeniable that Cole possessed something that hadn't been seen since the age of the Greek Heroes: superpowers."

* Manticore has posted in this thread that Statesman's "Inner Will" explanation may not be the whole truth. Specifically, that people are really questioning this explanation now that Statesman is seemingly unaging.

* Manticore also dropped that Statesman has a unique ability which is represented on his Heroclix figure: The lightning of Zeus.

* Let's face it, like a lot of comic fans, the dev teams LOVES mythology. Heck, Statesman himself is very well schooled in it.

So, here's my idea: The "Incarnate" ability refers to being the power of a god "Incarnate". Statesman may be Zeus, he's incredibly powerful, and can call his lightning. Perhaps Recluse is the incarnate power of some vile spider diety (thus his reference to a "curse", perhaps Statesman sees him being 'cursed' to the incarnate of that evil being). Perhaps when we become an Incarnate we get to pick a unique ability..like Statesma has his lightning, representing Zeus. Perhaps we pick a "diety" and get an ability corresponding to it.

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Cool idea but I think the "curse" being talked about is more like the curse of Judas in biblical mythology (IE: he would be cursed to live out eternity unable to die on earth as a human until the return) I'm thinking the "curse" is hinting that both of them are immortal or unaging (and likely from the same source) and in fighitng, one might very well die....whomever doesn't...would be the one that is truly cursed.


I could be reading too much into this, but that's the impression I got.

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Basically, I'm EXTREMELY picky with mythology. Trust me on that.

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I love that about CoH. It explains why the Coven is a villain group instead of a bunch of persecuted Goddess worshippers.

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Good and bad went to Hades, hell is probably where Zeus' father ended up (forget the name, starts with a Tar...heck I'm prob wrong there, it's been awhile).

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Tartarus

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FYI

Jack (i.e. me) has a BA in Classical Civilization, a MA in Ancient History and a MA in Greek & Latin. My specialty: ancient religion. I know ancient Greek, Latin, Italian, French, German, some Aramaic, Coptic, etc.

Basically, I'm EXTREMELY picky with mythology. Trust me on that.

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Oh so you loved Hercules TV show and it's spin off Zena Warrior Princess? I mean that was soooo accurate.

*snicker*

Aries wasnt evil. He was the god of war but in war heroes are made, glory blah blah blah. It wasnt the death that he relished so much as the battle itself. The vikings werent evil but carried similar beliefs. The Huns would be another example. Just a different outlook on war.

And Discord was Jealous and insulted that she wasnt chosen to be in a sort of goddess beauty contest. So she caused a war. Not evil misguided. Teenagers girls throw tantrums and do things without regard for others well being all the time.

My biggest point though is that gods for the most part did not consider a loss of human life a loss at all. Humans were beneath them. They would lament the death of a human the same way we lament the death of a squirrel in the road.

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Basically, I'm EXTREMELY picky with mythology. Trust me on that.
-Statesman

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I, for one, noticed that during the Halloween Event... Fir Bolg? Most people probably think it is some kind of designer lunch meat... That mixed with the Romanesque/Grecko "Statues Honoring the Gods" that are found in Every zone of the city...

No, I don't think you know what mythology is....

/emote sarcasm off

I just hope we don't have an invasion by something worse than old Pumpkin Head (there are worse things in Mythology than that... things that make the Rikti look like cute cuddly shoulder-kitties)

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I just hope we don't have an invasion by something worse than old Pumpkin Head (there are worse things in Mythology than that... things that make the Rikti look like cute cuddly shoulder-kitties)

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I am 99% certain that Eochai will turn up in Croatoa as a giant monster spawn, like the Kraken in PP, Babbage in Boomtown, Jurassik in Crey's Folly and Adamastor in DA.

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I'm just going to argue that there isn't, per se, a "Judeo-Christian" God. There is a God of the Hebrews and there is a God of the Christians, and never the twain shall meet.

And the God of the Hebrews is not perfect, he's a jealous God. He says as much himself.

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Gotta disagree here. As Jesus himself, if he existed at all, was a Jew, and thus his "father" was indeed the Jewish god.

Thus, the Christian and Jewish god is the same dude. Bloodthirsty, self aggrandizing, jealous, petty and sociopathic... yup, same god. Actually, not much different than the Greek/Roman gods.

At least the Norse gods were full of honor... and good beer.

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FYI

Jack (i.e. me) has a BA in Classical Civilization, a MA in Ancient History and a MA in Greek & Latin. My specialty: ancient religion. I know ancient Greek, Latin, Italian, French, German, some Aramaic, Coptic, etc.

Basically, I'm EXTREMELY picky with mythology. Trust me on that.

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Then he'd understand my finding humor in this situation:

I had recently rolled my latest hero, Lord Omicron, when my friend told me there was a mission or location called Omicron Point.

It's always been a favorite letter of mine. I guess it goes for some on the design team too.

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FYI

Jack (i.e. me) has a BA in Classical Civilization, a MA in Ancient History and a MA in Greek & Latin. My specialty: ancient religion. I know ancient Greek, Latin, Italian, French, German, some Aramaic, Coptic, etc.


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holy bleep! Nerf Jack!

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*spoiler notes*

From the new issue #2 of the CoH comic, we know that Statesman was imbued with Zeus' spirit through exposure to divine powers (drinking from the fountain of Zeus).

Right now, I'd say that gives Statesman plenty of divine rivals...including Prometheus.

(And boooooy, does Statesman have some ego problems at times- and that's the hero, not the dev. :P )

*spoiler over*

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Hmm, very cool. I don't have a copy of issue #2 yet but States' origin is very similar to a PC I made for Silver Age Sentinels a few years back who's an avatar of Hyperion... the titan, eldest son of Uranus, not the guy from Squadron Supreme. I've tried making him in CoH with limited success and just resigned myself to a Fire/SS tanker. I may just remake him if Incarnates turn out well.

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I live on an island that's so far out at sea that noone, not even Manannan mac Lir, can find it while living! Who am I?

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Arawn.

Is now a bad time to mention my teenaged obsession with Celtic mythology?

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I'm also a fan of Celtic myth but I picked it up after dabbling in geneology and discovered I was Welsh/Scot. As a kid, I strongly favoured the Greek myths... I remember going to public school with my two security blankets, Zohar's Astrology and The Twelve Labours... yeah, I was a weird kid.

Anyway, I'm interested in the answer to this. Arawn definitely applies but he did say Manannan Mac Lir, which is the Irish version of the name. Arawn is one of the Welsh psychopomps so his expected answer might be different.

I think the answer is Donn, the first man to die on the shores of Ireland. When the Milesians first reached Ireland, he fell off one of the boats and smashed his head on the rocks below, becoming both a God of the Sea and a psychopomp (underworld) figure.

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Random nitpick, don't know if anyone's mentioned already, but Spartans -are- Greek Sparta was one of the Greek city-states.

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Of course, Spartans were Lakonic while the culture we look upon today as "Greek" is primarily Attic. There were some significant diffeences. It's like lumping the French, Spanish, and Italians all together as "Latins".

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I, for one, noticed that during the Halloween Event... Fir Bolg? Most people probably think it is some kind of designer lunch meat.

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They're the bag people (trouser-wearers), of course! (Yes, another translation would be "spear people", but either would work from a cultural perspective.)

So what were the Halloween Fir Bolg? I missed that event. Were they neolithic, pre-Paragon-city inhabitants of the region who alternatively fought against and allied with the Native American tribes of the region who were themselves displaced by Paragon city's current inhabitant culture but were nevertheless later credited (in legend) with being the ancestors of a few prominent Paragon families?

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I live on an island that's so far out at sea that noone, not even Manannan mac Lir, can find it while living! Who am I?

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Manhattan--it's the right direction, after all.

I wanna be Coyote!!!!!

Maybe the 'curse' isn't entirely related to being immortal or who they may be incarnetes of... perhaps and incarnate is, for some reason, required to -always- fight for whatever he/she/it believes in, and therefore unable to have a normal existance.

Statesman didn't seem the most social guy in the comics... which could very easily be because he's immortal and doesn't want to establish connections with people he will out live... but it could also be that he's somehow not 'allowed' these things, as he may also be the incarnate of a particular ideal as well (justice, perhaps) and cannot do anything but strive toward that end... meaning alienating others who might otherwise be friends.

Hehe, not sure I even buy into that theory, but it's another angle to consider, I guess.

edit: Ach!! I meant curSe... not cure

The Greecian and Greek Mythology reference flies hot and heavy in City of Heroes, both in real-world details and fictional or mythological details.

First of all, Paragon City itself is located in this state....

Oh, I'm sorry. You failed to answer in the form of a question. The correct question was, 'What is Rhode Island'?

Rhode Island was apparently (As in there's really no official record of this) named after the Greek isle of Rhodes. It historically hasn't had a large Greek population, unlike New Jersey or New York State, but it has historically been one of the most intellectual, democratic, and fair members of the United States.

The original Euro population of Rhode Island was primarily made up of those who left other colonies in order to avoid repressive religions, such as the Puritanism prevalent in Massachusetts. It was one of the first of the original 13 colonies to abolish slavery and also one of the first states to extend voting privaleges to those who didn't own land.

The in game references to Grecian lore and Greek Mythology are more pronounced.

The Freedom Phalanx was created by Statesman because he was
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inspired by the shoulder-to-shoulder discipline showed by ancient Greek soldiers in the face of Persian tyranny

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Also note that one of Statesman's greatest nemesis is... ahem... Nemesis, the 'Persian Prince of Automatons'.

His other big nemesis, 'Arachnos', has a masculine version of the name 'Arachne', a mytological figure. Arachne was a mortal woman who challenged Athena to a contest of weaving and won-- with a tapestry that depicted Athena's father Zeus seducing various young women. Athena took offense at her for her presumptiousness and arrogance and cursed her to feel shame and guilt for offending the gods. Arachne suicided in her greif, but Athena took pity on her and changed her into a spider so that she and her descendants could be master weavers for all eternity.

Greece is also credited with some of the earliest creation of the first 'States'-- true sovereign nations-- even if they were town-sized. In the US, we use the 'statesman' to refer to revered politicians, but the word really means something different. It refers to one who is responsible for creating, perserving, or maintaining a country, something that the ancient Greeks would have very much in common with the heroes of Paragon City.

Paragon City-- probably a fictional counterpart to Providence in the same way Gotham corresponds to NYC or Metropolis corresponds to Chicago-- does have a fairly large Greek population. It also has some very prevalent RL Greek influences, such as the various Gyro (pronounced 'yee-row') shops around town.

One of the villan groups in Paragon City, and perhaps the only villan group that is portrayed in a semi-positive light are the Warriors-- who pride themselves on their resemblance to Greek soldiers. One of the major story-lines for 20-30 characters in CoH involves the defection of a Warrior leader to the authorities after the character undergoes a significant test of fortitude and honor. The Warrior leader feels that his group has degenerated too far and no longer stand for the ideals he wants to uphold.

Also, the Warriors are considered simply part of the natural fauna on Striga isle. The various contacts on Striga don't really have any problem with them and the few civilians on Striga don't run from them like they do every where else Warriors appear, like Talos Island and the Hollows.

If you go to the Lighthouse on Striga, you can see the Warriors partying Grecco-roman style with several young women who've come out to admire the strong young men.

It's apparent that-- even in a degenerate state-- the Greek-derived Warriors are the 'natural' super-powered inhabitants of Paragon City.

Several of the Magical Entities that power Magic-based enhancements are Greek (not Roman) Deities, including Zeus and Hermes.

My Conclusion: Regardless of wether or not the Statesman is an incarnation of Zeus, his origin will most likely have to deal with Greek Mythology in a fairly profound sense.

I think that the most likely avenue for Mr. Emmert and the writers at Cryptic to go down is that the Statesman was created by Zeus as an Earthbound, but not mortal container for his powers. He would have more in common with Hurcules (who proved to be immortal) than the deities themselves.

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In the US, we use the 'statesman' to refer to revered politicians, but the word really means something different.

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Wrong. A word only REALLY means what people use it for. Do you call all children under 12 years of age "girls"? After all, if you look at the history of the word "girl" it would "really mean" any child older than a toddler but younger than a youth/maiden.

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Paragon City-- probably a fictional counterpart to Providence in the same way Gotham corresponds to NYC or Metropolis corresponds to Chicago-- does have a fairly large Greek population. It also has some very prevalent RL Greek influences, such as the various Gyro (pronounced 'yee-row') shops around town.

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How many of those Greeks still worship Zeus and how many instead are much more likely to celebrate the Orthodox Paschalion the same nights I do?

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I think that the most likely avenue for Mr. Emmert and the writers at Cryptic to go down is that the Statesman was created by Zeus as an Earthbound, but not mortal container for his powers. He would have more in common with Hurcules (who proved to be immortal) than the deities themselves.

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Herakles was not merely an earthbound but not mortal container for the powers of Zeus. Likewise, Herakles DID DIE. Indeed, his mortal soul is found in Hades later, although his immortal portion is in Olympus.

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Also note that one of Statesman's greatest nemesis is... ahem... Nemesis, the 'Persian Prince of Automatons'.

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Prussian! Not Persian! There's a few hundred miles and two millenia between these two!

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Saying that is like saying that all Canadians are American.

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Well, Canadians are Americans. Canada is situated in North America, that being roughly half of the American Continent. The only problem is that there is no good word for people from the United States of America other than the very generic "American". "US:ers" or "Staters" would be more accurate but they do sound a little odd.

Though, you could live in Canada without being American or even Canadian. You could be born somewhere completely different. But, enough of this off-topic stuff now.



So, to actually add something to the thread, I'll just say that "Mythical" would be the Incarnate origin. No Magic, or Natural, or Mutant even if you can "unlock your inner power" with any of those. I'm more in favour of Incarnates not being of the five Origins simply to avoid elitism. It's why Statesman isn't a Tanker, for example.

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That's because they were originally called New Yorkers, Vigianians, Georgians, etc...